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have you heard about ripple i hear he always wears that hat even when he's naked
It's not even because hydroplanes, it's because of how they changed it in 3.6. It's a frame 16 move that was changed in kbg to match the gtfo style smashes of Pikachu and Rob (who have frame 5 or 6 dsmashes) at higher percents meaning it lost the thing about it that was great, comboing at higher percents
Umbreon's argument was that smashes shouldn't combo at higher percents. Though sheik forward smash, zss down smash , back part of zss forward smash, charizard down smash, and throwing peach down smash in there (you know why) were already going against that trend. Don't know if he still feels that way, or would agree that squirtle's down smash should be lowered to 7-11 frames considering it is better than the gtfo me down smashes at lower percents in terms of reward for hitting it.
It shouldnt be compared to gtfo smashes at all because it's not a gtfo move. It's always been the type of move you really need to have a read for or get lucky to connect with, and at 16 frames there's not really a reason for it to not combo at later percents. I would definantly understand if it was as fast as those gtfo smashes AND comboed but it doesnt.
Yo
Oracle
! Could you give me some details as to why you think Roy, Ivy & Ganon are "booty tier"?
I wouldn't think of it as a great neutral option. Hydroplaned it's very telegraphed and the hitboxes take a while to come out, so an opponent can see it coming from miles away and it's an easy punish.
Nah, it needs to be frame 1 and jump cancelable.
Nobody went in completely different directions. This is what you said
Bolded is flatout wrong and several people explained why. Having an unpunishable tool is a huge deal in any fighting game so I hope you understand why several of us were so quick jump on it. The wide-spread converting tool is no doubt true, and Ike having strong conversions was discussed as an advantage vs Marth/Roy. If it was unpunishable, then I could agree on its effectiveness as a neutral breaking tool. However Marth and Roy have neutral breaking tools via their dtilts (Roy has ftilt as well, Marth even has tipper fsmash as a hard read). Does Ike have any tools that break neutral as well as Marth/Roy dtilts?
This confused me a **** ton at first because I thought you were going to talk about the elements and qualities of a characters neutral beyond how safe a move is to hit without retribution. Still confused. The thing you want to hit them with takes a bigger toll on the MU than is credited, why? Because of how hard you can convert off it when it does hit?
This thought experiment I think is generally done by anyone maining a low tier (went thru this myself being a Ganon main in 3.02), or anyone trying to tough out bad MU. When speculating tiers, I find these kinds of arguments to be in the getting too deep territory.
Sums up why I enjoy the melee characters more in this game than melee.
I am not overly invested in changes to squirtle. I was just making a correction since you said "In before Umbreon says smashes shouldn't combo." No one said that, pretty much every character in the game has at least one smash attack that combos at some percent, even to latish percents. The reason why it is compared to a gtfo is because of its animation, which is why I personally think if it is going to have essentially the same properties of a gtfo move, it should be sped up to that 7-11f window for testing since everyone agrees 16 frames is too long for the move in its current form. Oh and add lucario up smash to that list of smashes that combo at late percent since he can jump out of it.
I'm not even necessarily thinking just hydro stuff with dsmash, and it's a committal option, but it can still be functional in neutral when used properly and with some reading.
In almost exactly the same way that Fox has bad matchups, yeah.
Those are some really solid points. Definitely true that its leniency (and actually decent disjoint) mean that people get caught in it more than they'd like to.
Umbreon has said that smashes shouldnt combo lol, we had this discussion when 3.6 full first released.
Go play RoA, Orcane can RH all his smashes and has a ton of other squirtle stuff
The meta-game never reflects the game in its current form, but we can at least TRY to understand where it's going.
This is actually perfectly written for something I wrote elsewhere, so I'm just going to copy-paste it.Nausicaa so what you're trying to say is that Ike is better at forcing the opponent to make bad decisions than Marth and Roy? Because that's ultimately why tools like dashdancing and projectiles are good, right--they force your opponent to make bad decisions? What does Ike have in this field that Marth and Roy don't? The obvious (and therefore probably incomplete) answer is Quickdraw, but is that really enough? What am I missing here that would make you say Ike is the best FE character (in neutral or generally)?
This is the only thing of importance in any topic you ever hear, read about, see, or contemplate.
...and you KNOW all of this already.
To be blunt, first...
Frame-data by this logic says she should NEVER get a Grab off anything but hard-tech-chases.
More context to learn, grow, and enjoy from.
didds has your answer. Bolded some parts, but the whole thing is the answer you're looking for if you want to know what I'm talking about.
Spralwers
Life
etc
Nausicaa
I say this in the most flattering way possible: if you got as good at the game called "make your ideas known to other human beings as clearly as possible, while also attempting to understand their ideas" as you were at the game called "don't get hit by the things you don't want to get hit by, and hit people with the things you want to hit them with" we would all join your cult and you would be unstoppable.
I was initially worried when you gravitated towards the idea that there must be a "tool" that makes Ike's neutral better, but I really like where you went with it. It's these kinds of thoughts that push things to further corners rather than just filling in the pain by numbers chart.
I can't tell if the stuff you said between quoting me and quoting Spralwers was entirely directed at me, or was using me as an example for others; whether the part you put in the spoiler box is meant as a rebuttal for what I said, or whether it was a complaint directed at the Tier List Spec community at large (let's face it, this thread totally qualifies as a community); what "Sheik or Puff or something" or "Falco and Lucario are getting beat by ROLLS" have to do with anything (well, the latter one was clearly sarcastic, but why the statement is there at all I don't know); or how the bolded part suggests "Ike is better than Marth" (the premise that started this conversation) rather than "it is ambiguous whether Ike or Marth is better" when you're emphasizing the parts about how everything is situational and matchup-dependent. (Honestly, I don't know as much about Roy to compare him to Ike.)
I enjoy answering your riddles because you pose good ones that get me thinking about the game. I think others would agree with me there. But if we say the premise of the riddle is wrong, or we get half-answers and ask what's missing, that's also us thinking about the game, and trying to learn more. You seem to understand that much.
But that's also us getting stuck in our thought process; we can't get from NY to Africa, to use your own metaphor, so either we're gonna give up on figuring you out and going to Africa, or we're gonna call you wrong and tell you to move to NY, or we're gonna try to ask questions so we can find a way to get to Africa, or maybe we'll even propose to meet in in the middle for a refreshing swim. By upping your ability to communicate your own ideas, we are more likely to try harder to get to Africa, or less likely to tell you to come to NY, or you'll have to do less swimming than we will.
This is a really odd metaphor.
tl;dr "Huh?"
I also have a riddle of my own, which pertains to Pit. I don't think it really belongs in this post, though. Maybe once this Ike business is sorted out.
Speaking of Ike, now that I've gotten my "communication is important" rant out of the way, I'd like to take another crack at the Ike problem.
Premise: Ike is the best FE character in neutral and in general. This time, I'm going to ignore my reservations with the premise and roll with it (I'm not going to convince Nausicaa he's wrong unless I know WHY Nausicaa thinks what he does on the subject anyway). Why might Ike be better than Marth/Roy, despite having slower movement and attacks? He could get stronger rewards when he does win neutral, but that wouldn't be having a better neutral game like the premise says. So it stands to reason that there is some tool he has which Marth and Roy don't. Obviously, the biggest difference is Quickdraw. We know about using Quickdraw to extend punishes, but that's not what we're here for. So what happens when Ike presses the Quickdraw button in neutral?
There's enough startup on Quickdraw that the opponent knows Quickdraw is happening by the time Ike actually does anything relevant out of it. The opponent will then try to defeat Ike's actions out of Quickdraw.
Now, in certain matchups (Falco comes to mind), the opponent can put out a quick projectile which will prevent Ike from doing anything to actually hurt them; Ike has to find other things to do that discourage them from throwing out projectiles before he can take advantage of Quickdraw in neutral against those characters. (Is this actually feasible? Can Ike body someone for throwing out projectiles so hard that they're too scared to do it even in the situation where it's a trump card?) Alternatively, Ike has to be willing to tank that projectile and plan on winning whatever interaction comes immediately afterward.
In situations where that's not a threat, the opponent has to guess. If they make to approach Ike, Ike might already be approaching them, or might go flying past them to reset the situation. If they throw out a hitbox, Ike might simply wait and punish the endlag. If they shield, Ike grabs. If they spotdodge, Ike might time his strike differently. Or, importantly, Ike might just wavedash down and effectively cancel the game; now he has information about what the opponent will do when they see him charge Quickdraw. (This option loses to the opponent walking forward; now they've taken space from Ike and he doesn't have room to Quickdraw again. This option in turn loses to basically anything else Ike could do out of QD provided he spaces correctly.)
What all those actions have in common is that whatever Ike does will happen too fast for the opponent to differentiate from his other options and react accordingly. In other words, Ike has a tool with which, from a distance where Marth and Roy can't threaten the opponent, he can sometimes force his opponent to play a mixup game without necessarily revealing his own cards. That's what Ike has over Marth and Roy.
How's that?
If you saw my post about this not long ago, it's been my life's work in the forum community for a long time.
You put it very differently than I would have, but basically nailed it in enough places to hold it down.
didds
described in his post about Squirtle) appropriate and proper Smashing (not getting hit...etc)
ZSS can kind of do that, but Ike (as with most characters) can play around Paralyzer in a way that makes it more of a mild annoyance than a real means of dictating interactions. She might use it in specific situations to force a certain set of responses (ex. to cover a potential vulnerability), but otherwise she's generally better off staying mobile, as it's always been.
That's basically what it was. Expecting Samus to land with anything from an aerial to a waveland, and approach her in some space-taking maneuver (dashing in) only to get clipped by an uncharged shot from the air-to-ground transition. No cancel, no reward further, but enough to make an opponent weary of punishing a would-be punishable situation, and tentative/hesitant at further engagements of that sort from there on.
Actually I don't believe Nausicaa has any notable tournament placings, so I'm not even sure you can say that he's good at the game called "don't get hit by the things you don't want to get hit by, and hit people with the things you want to hit them with."
holy ****, there's no way you aren't a ****ing narcissist
bowser hates jigglypuff. everything combos into rest and bowser thrives against characters that need to pressure to win.
Roy i would like to say is 50-50 (maybe 45-55 in either way, i mean really its close)
I dont mind the idea since bowser has a very low verticle recovery and its sad when i see a bowser flub and sd or he gets stuck into the edgeguards because its so predictable.
olimar also has more mixups because of down b wavebouncing, neutral b jump, and if he has a purple he can knock people off ledge, so hes much less predictable. olimars recovery has a hitbox that can hit people hogging ledge, so i can see the jetpack being harder to punish and harder to edgeguard in some situations. i never compared olimar to falco, i said he has an onstage game that is almost as good as falcos.
Life
made a point that QD forces his opponent into a mixup game without showing his cards.
Life
described, and gathering information for free (essentially) is a powerful strength that is usually reserved for characters like ZSS, Falcon, and Fox. QD can also be used on larger stages to move yourself out of bad stage positioning, you can quickly shoot past an opponent, RAR to turn and face them, and can cover the space in front of you by using nair or fair. Combine that strength with the rather consistent punishes that Ike has and it's really no wonder why he's still considered a top 15 character despite nothing but nerfs to his options.I think the people who at least have a good fundamental understanding of "neutral" don't follow that line of logic. At the least I see that G&W's tools in neutral are beatable, but the things the people don't want to get hit by are taking huge tolls on the MU (like you were discussing earlier), but more because people weren't playing vs G&W in neutral properly (as thorough MU experience is hard to come by) and weren't DI/SDI'ing his combos properly (as a result of MU inexperience/lack of knowledge).
Understood.
At theoretical top level play, almost, I believe Samus should only be getting grabs off hard tech chases and if followed up under the right circumstances with missiles. And yes that latter part about the applying reasoning for some things and disregarding it for others is true, I do it based on circumstance. For instance Marth's dtilt is faster, longer reaching, and much less punishable than most if not all of Ike's ground moves and I consider that significant, but Meta Knight's dtilt has equal range and comes out faster compared to Marth's but I hardly consider that significant (relative to Marth). That's a discussion for another time.
It's nice to talk about wins that we've gotten in our careers, but it sounds like you're using wins from 2010 and prior to try to substantiate your points and that's not really how things work. Plus, it's hard to believe this is true because that's not even how Scorp came about.
And then when people tell you how that is incorrect for XYZ reason, you say that we're failing to see the game in the context that you want us to see it in. The problem is that you're failing to validate why we should see the game in that context and what that context is. You do not have any footage that indicates your level of play, just claims about your wins in melee from 5+ years ago. When I'm trying to demonstrate a point, I break it down as much as possible. If I wanted to explain why I thought that a move was a powerful neutral tool. I would explain how the moves works in conjunction with the character's kit, what the counter play is to it, why that counter play doesn't always work which makes it an effective neutral breaking tool, and then explain the potency of follow ups that stem from said tool. I wouldn't make a claim, shroud it in mystery, and then rather than having a discussion with someone who disagrees, say "you're not seeing it the way I do." Okay, but why should I? Players rely upon my opinion of Ness because they know that I'm a good player with proven, relevant results. Why should I listen to you?
Whistle Wavebounce sends you further away from the stage, aerial Pluck has a whole bunch of frame where you're just wiggling around in the air and your opponent can go hit you. Pretty much always better to use Pluck first, then jump as you get closer because then at least you can do a rising Fair to ward people off. So it's not exactly a mixup.
