Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

Speaking of which, can hover be restored to Mewtwo if he just uses double jump? Currently, if you double jump to recover and go to the ledge, you still don't get to hover.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Strictly speaking it's possible, albeit a bit convoluted and arguably less intuitive than the current implementation (which, while still inconsistent with his supposed dj<=>hover relationship, follows the precedent set by Peach). Equally as important, there are interactions that would change if he could hover off the ledge in an expanded set of situations. Imagine Mewtwo covering the ledge with hover aerials for example. He wouldn't be fully invincible, but that's a very strong option nonetheless.

 

[Nausicaa]

Quickly skimming the last 40ish pages or so, and seeing all the conversations that have happened from all sorts of different parties and angles, has shone some light on some stuff for me in odd ways.
I think I've gotten a lot more understanding of why my perspective of the game is so hard to grasp for the majority of the public and is generally 'off' from popular opinion/ideas.

Basically, I think I'm starting to 'get' what kinds of things I have to point out when discussing stuff.
You all look at the game from a TOTALLY different direction, it's cool.
Meaning, you're all paying attention to totally different things than me. Including when we're discussing things. So when I've shared my thoughts before, I've pointed out things for a certain reason, and others would think it's for completely different reasons, and that's why I never have any idea why nobody gets what I'm trying to say.

Discussion is hard when not irl.

You're all nuts.


In related news, last time I posted here I mentioned that there was a lot of discussion (and a few lists posted) that I could actually understand and relate to.

Also, that relating to what others were saying for once actually felt kind of weird.
It was cool.
That trend has continued.
Most of this stuff is making SENSE to me for once and it's actually in agreement with things I talk about.
Don't know why people are thinking the way they are now, but this is really refreshing to jump in here and actually have people say the things I WOULD say if they weren't said already.


TY for making me feel less insane, recent Tier List posters.

tl;dr

@ Nausicaa he'd prolly explain it better if he would come out from behind his mist of confusion

True that

I name searched to catch up in case I missed something from the last time I was here, but what does this mean? Player -0 and is this something I should address or no?
I don't get it.

Edit - Let me be Nausicaa. Why can Marth walk down Link but not MK?

I think my name was only in the quote in this post for you @PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP , but this was answered pretty clearly.

Just do vipassana seriously
It's the end-game of mental practice. Everything from mental exercises or intellectual stuff or yoga stuff or whatever else all leads here and then this kicks your *** after it all that because nobody is ever ready for the final boss of the mind.
Google it and find a center near you and GO
It's 10 days for a course, no $ or anything either cause it's free but you can donate AFTER you take a course if you WANT to
and they'll have food and sleeping stuff and it's designed that anyone can go and be a monk/nun for 10 days and learn the tool that you can learn the end-game tech that allows you to do whatever the **** you want all dai ery dai

Do that, and you won't need to hear another word from me.
But we can still talk. It's cool.

 

[ForTheLulz]

I wouldn't be surprised if characters like ness/lucas/peach/m2 couldn't ledgedash w/ intangibility due to their double jump cancel shenanigans.

You can tournament winner off ledge to an airdodge to get a perfect ledgedash
the frames when you get up to jump off ledge are invulnerable I believe
this basically means all characters can ledgedash

 

[NWRL]

In previous versions of PM, Roy warped upwards on ledge release due to how the animation interacted with our SCD engine. In 3.6 this was cleaned up; it's actually notably better than Melee's ledge release still and wasn't fully matched, in the context of trying to ledgedash or perform ledgehop aerials.

Besides developer intent, what was the purpose in cleaning up the animation besides nerfing Roy? I think quirks like that are something that should be left in the game, especially if it doesn't do anything gamebreaking.

I think it might just be my general distaste with modern game design speaking though, I miss days of yore when bugs that led to unintentionally but fun interactions were kept in the game for the sake of the playerbase. Arena shooters wouldn't be arena shooters without bunny hopping.

 

[MLGF]

All that tells me is Ike needs buffs

PMDT bring back 2.1 Ike plz

 

[NWRL]

All that tells me is Ike needs buffs

PMDT bring back 2.1 Ike plz

I played 2.1 Ike with allstars.

I immediately switched back to 3.6 because **** that nair.

 

[MLGF]

2.1 Ike with modern nair.
In all seriousness, the very idea of Ike buffs sounds hilarious. I want that.

 

[Deleted member]

Besides developer intent, what was the purpose in cleaning up the animation besides nerfing Roy? I think quirks like that are something that should be left in the game, especially if it doesn't do anything gamebreaking.

I think it might just be my general distaste with modern game design speaking though, I miss days of yore when bugs that led to unintentionally but fun interactions were kept in the game for the sake of the playerbase. Arena shooters wouldn't be arena shooters without bunny hopping.

When Roy was on the ledge in 3.5, he was essentially in an advantageous position due to the amount of time he was allowed to be intangible after ledge dash. One of our initial design goals when starting project m was to give options to the person being edge guarded, but always give the person who is doing the edge guarding the favorable position. 3.5 Roy's ledge dash went against this, and was fixed as a result.

The ledge dash is still good so I don't see anything to complain about there.

 

[nimigoha]

When Roy was on the ledge in 3.5, he was essentially in an advantageous position due to the amount of time he was allowed to be intangible after ledge dash. One of our initial design goals when starting project m was to give options to the person being edge guarded, but always give the person who is doing the edge guarding the favorable position. 3.5 Roy's ledge dash went against this, and was fixed as a result.

The ledge dash is still good so I don't see anything to complain about there.

 

[Soft Serve]

To make this post not spam, and since ike is been a topic recently, what are people's opinions about him? I think he okay, doesn't seem very overbearing and I think he has the worst neutral of all the fe guys

 

[InfinityCollision]

I don't get it, are we pretending there's a problem with Bowser's ledge options?

Yes, <100 getup attack has huge range. Shield and punish. Yes, he has substantial frame advantage out of <100 ledge jump->waveland, but not to a degree that doesn't exist for other characters. Respect it as you would any other good ledgedash, but remember that no matter what a Bowser on the ledge is still a cornered Bowser. Getting to the ledge in an offstage situation isn't exactly free for him either, and it goes without saying that his options are much worse at high percents.

 

[NWRL]

To make this post not spam, and since ike is been a topic recently, what are people's opinions about him? I think he okay, doesn't seem very overbearing and I think he has the worst neutral of all the fe guys

He has the worst neutral for sure but QD makes his whiff punishing insane, and if you are able to read your opponents you can use QD into combo aerials like nair or dair to get a nasty punish. I'd say he's like top 15ish

 

[Ripple]

bowser has something like 15 frames of invincibility out of ledge hop wave land down.

which if what lunchables said about roy having one of the best ones in the game already at 7 AND being a problem is true. then it doesn't make sense that bowser's ledge hop wasn't nerfed for being so absurdly better than everyone elses.

5 frames after bowser ledge hops, he's suddenly on stage. he basically takes back over half the stage because of it.

 

[KinGly]

He has the worst neutral for sure but QD makes his whiff punishing insane, and if you are able to read your opponents you can use QD into combo aerials like nair or dair to get a nasty punish. I'd say he's like top 15ish

What's the difference between ganon and Ike that makes Ike better? From what I understand they both have slow movement outside of burst movement (qd and wavelands), but hit like a truck to compensate. I feel like Ike has a better recovery and that's about it.

Not asking cause I think Ganon's better, just curious of the reason for the tier difference despite seemingly similar attributes.

 

[steelguttey]

What's the difference between ganon and Ike that makes Ike better? From what I understand they both have slow movement outside of burst movement (qd and wavelands), but hit like a truck to compensate. I feel like Ike has a better recovery and that's about it.

Not asking cause I think Ganon's better, just curious of the reason for the tier difference despite seemingly similar attributes.

pointy sword

 

[mimgrim]

What's the difference between ganon and Ike that makes Ike better? From what I understand they both have slow movement outside of burst movement (qd and wavelands), but hit like a truck to compensate. I feel like Ike has a better recovery and that's about it.

Not asking cause I think Ganon's better, just curious of the reason for the tier difference despite seemingly similar attributes.

Ike's movement isn't slow actually, lol.

He has a very fast moving DD (though it is a pretty small DD, the sheer speed makes it good), good run sped, and what not. And he has some really good initial air speed on him.

He moves way fast then Ganon, comparatively.

He does have slowish attacks like Ganon though.

 

[InfinityCollision]

bowser has something like 15 frames of invincibility out of ledge hop wave land down.

which if what lunchables said about roy having one of the best ones in the game already at 7 AND being a problem is true. then it doesn't make sense that bowser's ledge hop wasn't nerfed for being so absurdly better than everyone elses.

5 frames after bowser ledge hops, he's suddenly on stage. he basically takes back over half the stage because of it.

7 frames is nowhere near best. I can think of half a dozen characters with 10+ frames out of a ledgedash off the top of my head. His 3.5 ledgedash was up there though.

You want to talk about nutty ledge options, I'd sooner point to the fact that Wolf can haxdash with blaster.

 

[Spralwers]

Ike on average has the worst neutral of the FE chars, more limited DD with a slower dash and wavedash, and a lack of quick, safe poking moves to control ground space. Crazy burst movement via QD and very high peak aerial speed allow him to get in quickly on his opponent's openings, and work quite well with his grabs and aerials to get insanely consistent punishes. This advantage in tons of MUs offsets not being able to control the ground as well as Marth and Roy and it leads him to be really really potent in those MUs, which is why he's considered a very strong character.

What's the difference between ganon and Ike that makes Ike better? From what I understand they both have slow movement outside of burst movement (qd and wavelands), but hit like a truck to compensate. I feel like Ike has a better recovery and that's about it.

The key difference is that Ike moves much faster in the air than Ganon does. (Edit 2: This grants Ike that extra mobility to go in when he sees an opening, and extend his punishes despite the strong knockback on his moves.) Ganon could punish (and dare I say approach?) much harder than Ike if he had Ike's peak horizontal aerial speed (edit: Ike's dash/running SH speed). Ike does move faster on the ground too but I don't think it's a meaningful enough advantage, Ike's DD still loses to the heavy DD characters.

While Ike does seem like a faster moving Ganon + sword, I think there is something to be said for Ganon having actual ground game which is able to control so much space on smaller stages, esp when combined with his aerials. I bet against DD heavy characters like Fox, MK, Falcon, and Marth, Ganon would do better than Ike on small stages.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really know what I think @ the whole bowser thing, since his dash mobility afterwards isn't nearly as threatening as Roy/Foxs. I guess he could dsmash/up b instantly, but you're already respecting that range due to respecting <100 ledge attack.

 

[nimigoha]

I don't really know what I think @ the whole bowser thing, since his dash mobility afterwards isn't nearly as threatening as Roy/Foxs. I guess he could dsmash/up b instantly, but you're already respecting that range due to respecting <100 ledge attack.

That's a really solid point. If Bowser's <100 then there's not really any point to try to mess with him, since he can get up and grab or even KK you if you try to shieldgrab his getup attack.

I guess if you flub an edgeguard he's right there and get get on you super quick.

 

[Nausicaa]

Saying Ike has a worse neutral than Marth and Roy is like saying Falcon does too.

His fly-by N-Air being essentially an unpunishable wide-spread converting tool akin to Sonic's old Down-B/Side-B variations is still part of what this 'neutral' is, even if it's not winning THROUGH neutral itself. Don't forget this element.
Even Pit's pre-3.02 N-Air had this element and was way better than the drill it is now. The 1 nerf Pit had going into the OP-patch of PM. lol

It works like a fly-by Falcon N-Air but disjointed, hits all around him, and has more stable likelihood of converting at all times than CF`s N-Air. So it's more like a Falcon Kick that you can convert into whatever punish you want.
Tag something like that onto a 'neutral game' that is a simple/basic mix of threatening disjoint and grab games that both need significant attention to not get clobbered by if you play a 'raw neutral' game, and that neutral-breaking ability that Ike has will out-match the raw steady-neutrals that Marth and Roy will ever have.

Ike has always had the best neutral of the FE characters, and has always been the best character of the 3.

There, I said it.

 

[NWRL]

Saying Ike has
a worse neutral than Marth and Roy is like saying Falcon does too.

His fly-by N-Air being essentially an unpunishable wide-spread converting tool akin to Sonic's old Down-B/Side-B variations is still part of what this 'neutral' is, even if it's not winning THROUGH neutral itself. Don't forget this element.
Even Pit's pre-3.02 N-Air had this element and was way better than the drill it is now. The 1 nerf Pit had going into the OP-patch of PM. lol

It works like a fly-by Falcon N-Air but disjointed, hits all around him, and has more stable likelihood of converting at all times than CF`s N-Air. So it's more like a Falcon Kick that you can convert into whatever punish you want.
Tag something like that onto a 'neutral game' that is a simple/basic mix of threatening disjoint and grab games that both need significant attention to not get clobbered by if you play a 'raw neutral' game, and that neutral-breaking ability that Ike has will out-match the raw steady-neutrals that Marth and Roy will ever have.

Ike has always had the best neutral of the FE characters, and has always been the best character of the 3.

There, I said it.

That's actually a really interesting point of view. If you can get a raw nair hit in neutral you can convert it into grab really easily, and that's Ike's main gameplan basically. Convert grabs into kills.

What's the difference between ganon and Ike that makes Ike better? From what I understand they both have slow movement outside of burst movement (qd and wavelands), but hit like a truck to compensate. I feel like Ike has a better recovery and that's about it.

Not asking cause I think Ganon's better, just curious of the reason for the tier difference despite seemingly similar attributes.

Ike's air mobility is like Falcon's, combine that with his high initial dash speed and he can close distances just like Falcon can. Add QD in for an even faster approach. Ike hits almost as hard as Ganon, but can combo like Falcon, has a jab that be cancelled into grabs for mixups, which can then be converted into juggles for kills. The only thing those characters have in common is that they hit hard. Ike is closer to Falcon than Ganon

 

[frankxthexbunny]

That's actually a really interesting point of view. If you can get a raw nair hit in neutral you can convert it into grab really easily, and that's Ike's main gameplan basically. Convert grabs into kills.



Ike's air mobility is like Falcon's, combine that with his high initial dash speed and he can close distances just like Falcon can. Add QD in for an even faster approach. Ike hits almost as hard as Ganon, but can combo like Falcon, has a jab that be cancelled into grabs for mixups, which can then be converted into juggles for kills. The only thing those characters have in common is that they hit hard. Ike is closer to Falcon than Ganon

It's weird how I can basically agree with Nausicaa and yet completely disagree with you at the same time. I wouldn't in any way say that ike's air mobility is like falcon's, it's quite different in a lot of fundamental ways. Ike is pretty unique to both characters really, not much like ganon nor falcon.

 

[Soft Serve]

Saying Ike has a worse neutral than Marth and Roy is like saying Falcon does too.

His fly-by N-Air being essentially an unpunishable wide-spread converting tool akin to Sonic's old Down-B/Side-B variations is still part of what this 'neutral' is, even if it's not winning THROUGH neutral itself. Don't forget this element.
Even Pit's pre-3.02 N-Air had this element and was way better than the drill it is now. The 1 nerf Pit had going into the OP-patch of PM. lol

It works like a fly-by Falcon N-Air but disjointed, hits all around him, and has more stable likelihood of converting at all times than CF`s N-Air. So it's more like a Falcon Kick that you can convert into whatever punish you want.
Tag something like that onto a 'neutral game' that is a simple/basic mix of threatening disjoint and grab games that both need significant attention to not get clobbered by if you play a 'raw neutral' game, and that neutral-breaking ability that Ike has will out-match the raw steady-neutrals that Marth and Roy will ever have.

Ike has always had the best neutral of the FE characters, and has always been the best character of the 3.

There, I said it.

Falcons dd nair doesn't have 13 frames minimum before you can jump out and actually do the move. If you hear/see the side b start up, you know ike is actually trying to do something, and can prepare yourself accordingly.

They are hardly comparable. Being able to but a hitbox out like, 22 frames out of a semi committal burst mover option doesn't seem lie a magic wand for a neutral game

 

[Deleted member]

Saying Ike has a worse neutral than Marth and Roy is like saying Falcon does too.

this is the most incorrect statement ive ever seen on smashboards

 

[Nausicaa]

Falcons dd nair doesn't have 13 frames minimum before you can jump out and actually do the move. If you hear/see the side b start up, you know ike is actually trying to do something, and can prepare yourself accordingly.

They are hardly comparable. Being able to but a hitbox out like, 22 frames out of a semi committal burst mover option doesn't seem lie a magic wand for a neutral game

I was talking about simply a N-Air out of DD, like, just jumping out of a dash.
Side-B stuff seems to be getting all of the attention, but that's not what I'm pointing at here. Pit had Glide, sure, but his N-Air didn't have to follow anything but a jump, neither does Ike's. A character has a certain threatening-zone, when you have a character who has a tool that challenges the area around this zone in threatening ways, even if committal, it still makes that zone a lot more difficult to manage when facing that character.

this is the most incorrect statement ive ever seen on smashboards

Apparently you got the point but missed the point entirely.

Saying Smash isn't like a fighting game is like saying Smash isn't a sport.
Get it yet?
Apples and oranges, that was the WHOLE point. lol

 

[Deleted member]

the real point is that you make no god damn sense for anyone that's actually trying to understand you.

 

[Soft Serve]

I was talking about simply a N-Air out of DD, like, just jumping out of a dash.
Side-B stuff seems to be getting all of the attention, but that's not what I'm pointing at here. Pit had Glide, sure, but his N-Air didn't have to follow anything but a jump, neither does Ike's. A character has a certain threatening-zone, when you have a character who has a tool that challenges the area around this zone in threatening ways, even if committal, it still makes that zone a lot more difficult to manage when facing that character.


Apparently you got the point but missed the point entirely.

Saying Smash isn't like a fighting game is like saying Smash isn't a sport.
Get it yet?
Apples and oranges, that was the WHOLE point. lol

But ike doesn't go far enough to fly by with nairs out of just his dash. He'd have to be in ranges his normals are generally too slow to control well to do that. He isn't Pikachu lol. Normally I agree with all you sage wisdom but I don't think we're playing the same character here

 

[frankxthexbunny]

the real point is that you make no god damn sense for anyone that's actually trying to understand you.

approximately 50 percent of the viewers understand him more or less fine and the others dont. Now you can either argue A: he doesn't make sense and these people are pretending to get him, or B: he does make sense to these 50 percent but not the others because theres a core difference between the halves. (btw I'm using him because obvious reasons).

And to not make an entire post go to waste not talking about smash, the point "His fly-by N-Air being essentially an unpunishable wide-spread converting tool akin to Sonic's old Down-B/Side-B variations is still part of what this 'neutral' is" is solid. Ike has a lot of underutilized neutral tools because everyone assumes quick draw is the missing link between whether he is bad or is good in the neutral game. If he did not have quick draw his neutral game wouldn't be that different than the fact that he does. Ike has good threat zones in contrast to how punishable his flexing of those threat zones are and having falcon tier movement isn't a prerequisite in having falcon tier neutral despite what everyone seems to think.

 

[Player -0]

I think the everyone you're talking about is pretty much everyone that doesn't know much about Ike or browses this thread. Pretty sure we've been over that QD is a punishment tool/combo extension/etc tool and not a neutral.

The thing is Nair is super stuffable and has range in front of Ike for only a brief amount of time. As well as most characters being able to punish a fly by OoS with an aerial pretty easily.

 

[NWRL]

Ike mains have been saying it for years, QD is not a neutral tool, and for some reason people always try to factor it into the discussion somehow lol

QD functions in two major ways in Ike's game: to position himself for punishes in a stagger situation, and following up on his high knockback attacks.

You can try to condition reactions to QD in neutral but it's really not a safe option to try.

I think the everyone you're talking about is pretty much everyone that doesn't know much about Ike or browses this thread. Pretty sure we've been over that QD is a punishment tool/combo extension/etc tool and not a neutral.

The thing is Nair is super stuffable and has range in front of Ike for only a brief amount of time. As well as most characters being able to punish a fly by OoS with an aerial pretty easily.

Crossup nairs into pivots are a pretty good use of the move in a fly by situation. The way the nair circles around Ike makes it pretty tricky to challenge, usually by the time Ike is in range to be counterattacked, nair is protecting him from the front and directly under him.

 

[Deleted member]

Ike has always had the best neutral of the FE characters, and has always been the best character of the 3.

There, I said it.

 

[FifthCPU]

nimigoha Everyone wants to see my shennanigans :D

(Tagging @KingClubber since he might want to know about this. Apologies if I'm necroing, I'm very tired atm)

I actually just today wrote my own system for DI, since I'm really not a fan of the vanilla one. The CPUs DI outward unless the opponent is far away enough at which point they swap to a very basic form of survival DI. Level 7 CPUs DI randomly, because I wanted there to be some sort of way for random DI without compromising CPUs as a whole. All of this has been tested and is confirmed to work. The only reason I don't have a public version out is that KingClubber and I worked together on it so I don't want to release it yet, and that it requires a rewrite of basically the entire CPU, so its really time intensive. I implemented it in squirtle, but nowhere else.

I also am working on making the higher level CPUs (Probably 6 and above) meteor cancel correctly. It required some nifty coding (and a lot of resetting the frame counter, as is my trademark), but I think it should work! If it does, I also have them swapping randomly between meteor cancelling using a jump and using an up-B.

EDIT: Why can I suddenly do all this? Because I finally realized just how damn powerful the "KBAngle" function really is. I mean... wow.

 

[Player -0]

I could see it being an interesting tool considering the opponent has to still respect the RAR spaced Bair/empty hop. I think as an option it gives up a lot of your stage control for quite a risky move especially if your opponent jumps into shield (this option clashes with aforementioned options) every time he sees you RAR at you.

The fact is that even though it has a hitbox as he's approaching, "everything" will trade with it and typically put Ike in a worse position and take more % than the person. Also factor in CC.

 

[FreeGamer]

this is the most incorrect statement ive ever seen on smashboards

what if i told you that zelda is a bottom 10 character and her post-3.02 design still needs lotsa work? Kappa

 

[Deleted member]

what if i told you that zelda is a bottom 10 character and her post-3.02 design still needs lotsa work? Kappa

i'd tell you to edit your post before lunchables sees it and has a stroke

 

[Life]

Nausicaa, you're a genius, but you're wrong on this one.

Marth and Roy have better overall frame data and movement than Ike ever did (caveat: I don't know the actual frame data, I'm just saying what I'm seeing). Ike's advantage is that he's more consistent taking stocks than either, and I'm pretty sure he's also more survivable than either as well.

 

[FreeGamer]

i'd tell you to edit your post before lunchables sees it and has a stroke

getting a stroke that easily? they don't make 12 year olds like they used to...

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah,

nimigoha Everyone wants to see my shennanigans :D

(Tagging @KingClubber since he might want to know about this. Apologies if I'm necroing, I'm very tired atm)

I actually just today wrote my own system for DI, since I'm really not a fan of the vanilla one. The CPUs DI outward unless the opponent is far away enough at which point they swap to a very basic form of survival DI. Level 7 CPUs DI randomly, because I wanted there to be some sort of way for random DI without compromising CPUs as a whole. All of this has been tested and is confirmed to work. The only reason I don't have a public version out is that KingClubber and I worked together on it so I don't want to release it yet, and that it requires a rewrite of basically the entire CPU, so its really time intensive. I implemented it in squirtle, but nowhere else.

I also am working on making the higher level CPUs (Probably 6 and above) meteor cancel correctly. It required some nifty coding (and a lot of resetting the frame counter, as is my trademark), but I think it should work! If it does, I also have them swapping randomly between meteor cancelling using a jump and using an up-B.

EDIT: Why can I suddenly do all this? Because I finally realized just how damn powerful the "KBAngle" function really is. I mean... wow.

That's awesome, hope to see it soon.

I'm a little confused by your explanation of the DI. When will they switch to survival DI? Won't the "kill move" occur when the characters are close together, outside of a projectile?

Also the random DI setup is pretty rad. Looking forward to your next video/post.

Also I'm not exactly sure why this was posted in the tier list discussion thread