Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

Falcons dd nair doesn't have 13 frames minimum before you can jump out and actually do the move. If you hear/see the side b start up, you know ike is actually trying to do something, and can prepare yourself accordingly.

"you know Ike is actually trying to do something and you can prepare yourself"

"trying to do something and you can prepare yourself"

"prepare yourself"
I see what you did there...

 

[FifthCPU]

nimigoha I don't know, I was just replying to your earlier post where you tagged me . We can move this somewhere else if needed.

My super-early-development system is basically while the character is dying, once they're a significant distance (enough that combos are unlikely) from the opponent, they'll begin correcting to a 45 degree angle knockback, as opposed to simply continuing to DI away, like in the current system. I'm going to alter it to make it work better, but its already an improvement imo.

 

[Saproling]

this is the most incorrect statement ive ever seen on smashboards

I dunno man iv seen some **** like when you said Ivy beats Marth but I also cant tell if you're just ****ing with people.

 

[JOE!]

Fixed up the Boozer Pawnch~

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3lvxem/bowsers_inside_punch_mk2/

 

[nimigoha]

nimigoha I don't know, I was just replying to your earlier post where you tagged me . We can move this somewhere else if needed.

My super-early-development system is basically while the character is dying, once they're a significant distance (enough that combos are unlikely) from the opponent, they'll begin correcting to a 45 degree angle knockback, as opposed to simply continuing to DI away, like in the current system. I'm going to alter it to make it work better, but its already an improvement imo.

You should make a "FifthCPU AI" thread on the Customized Content boards, because people don't like when this thread derails, but also because it's definitely something people would be very interested in seeing and following the progress of.

Do you mean they'll start DIing to 45 degree KBA if a move will give them something past a threshold of KB? Like before/as they're hit?

 

[Ripple]

I need to take a break from smash as apparently there are rumors going around about me that are very negative.

so I'm going to fix up DDD's frame data thread and then leave you guys with this guide for DDD

http://smashboards.com/threads/advanced-how-to-play-3-6-ver-1-0.418278/

 

[Spralwers]

I can't agree with Ike's fly-by nair being essentially unpunishable. You can pretty much punish it with any aerial OoS. You might even be able to react to the fly by nair with DD away -> insta shield so you're facing Ike when he lands "behind" you. If he's going for the fly-by, that means he's likely to hit with a sour part which means it'd be easy to CC punish it. But at least unlike Falcon's nair, it's large and disjointed, so it won't get stuffed by pretty much every anti-air in the game.

Ike has no real answers to good DD, so when those characters play 'raw' neutral, he does in fact lose. Luckily only a small portion of the cast actually has good DD, and there are a few "hard" counters to Ike due to toolkit interaction (DDD, Falco, maybe Kirby), so that leaves Ike in a pretty strong spot. However Marth doesn't get hard countered by anyone, so I question the notion of Ike having "better" neutral than him. I can see Ike being better in certain MUs, like Peach and Zelda. But across the board, I'd have to see Ike's kit not fundamentally losing to any character, or Marth's toolkit fundamentally losing to a non trivial bunch of characters before I could consider Ike's neutral better.

Also like the comparison to Captain Falcon more than Ganon, I was actually thinking of saying Ike is more like the Captain Falcon of the FE characters so I'm glad I'm not alone there.

In regards to Falcon kick, Falcon kick is a sleeper move in this game. Combined with ez pivots and b reversing you can do it immediately out of DD at any time and catch people when they leave pretty slight openings and extend punishes. falcon in melee lacked a strong, active, high priority, hitbox attached to his fast movement and the buffs to the move + pm/brawl mechanics allow it to be used that way.

 

[FifthCPU]

You should make a "FifthCPU AI" thread on the Customized Content boards, because people don't like when this thread derails, but also because it's definitely something people would be very interested in seeing and following the progress of.

Do you mean they'll start DIing to 45 degree KBA if a move will give them something past a threshold of KB? Like before/as they're hit?

Thread created: http://smashboards.com/threads/fifthcpus-custom-ai-discussion-workshop.418281/

Peace out, tier-listers.

 

[Nausicaa]

Apparently this is still the same as ever.

You're all paying attention to totally different things than me. Including when we're discussing things. So when I've shared my thoughts before, I've pointed out things for a certain reason, and others would think it's for completely different reasons, and that's why I never have any idea why nobody gets what I'm trying to say.

PS: Reading back, you're all going way too deep with this N-Air and Falcon reference stuff that I just through out there for better context on the greater picture, by the looks of it.
Glad it's something that is being a catalyst for decent discussion though. So I guess my comment about it wasn't a waste. lol

This was awesome.

To explain if it really is confusing or something...
I've never held Marth very highly in PM. There are many who throw him in the top-groups all the time, others who (even just at times) think Marth isn't as good as he's considered by others.
I'm simply on the end of consistency with thinking less highly of him than most.
I've always considered Roy to be basically on par with Marth, which also means I've never considered him to be the top-group type of character that many have thought him to be in the past. Recent conversations in this thread have even discussed him possibly being 'overrated' to some degree.

Through all patches since 2.1 Ike, this is the worst Ike has ever been. He's had mini-nerfs every patch since the major tweaks that happened in that very-early-PM patch, and I simply think he's STILL strong. Obviously most do, given he's only ever had nerfs to things throughout the patches.
All I have been that is different than the masses, is consistent. That's literally the only quality my insight has regarding this topic that others haven't had.
:/

This thread has gone with waves agreeing with this, other waves where it hasn't. The recent wave (in this very thread if you read it) is in complete agreement with it. If me bringing this up has changed that perspective, then there you go. Observable reflection successfully brought to the surface for people to look at themselves and why they think the things they do.

Nausicaa, you're a genius, but you're wrong on this one.

Marth and Roy have better overall frame data and movement than Ike ever did (caveat: I don't know the actual frame data, I'm just saying what I'm seeing). Ike's advantage is that he's more consistent taking stocks than either, and I'm pretty sure he's also more survivable than either as well.

Won't go into detail, but saying something like frame data as if that is the end-all (which is what you're implying with that sentence) of a NEUTRAL game is pretty silly (laughable and superfluous)
I'm sure you understand that in hindsight, but come on. lol

If Samus uses any move WITHIN RANGE of hitting with the opponent, aside from 3 in her entire arsenal, Jiggs can rest her.
Frame data, Samus must have a terrible neutral. No disjoint, DD, etc, how can she possibly hit a Fox? Let alone grab a Fox!
A presence on a stage with the threat of a hit-box that can lead to your stock being lost is what makes anyone from Puff to Falcon work, tools are a catalyst for this, but the neutral is NOT in the mechanics. No matter how tangible and chart-able and statistically sound that may seem on the surface.
Do Marth and Roy have that quality? (Everyone knows Marth's Grab and Roy's D-Tilt) Does Ike have that quality? Yes. I simply consider him to have it more in a raw neutral due to what he can bring through what everyone seems to be considering 'bad' neutral stuff, like committing to attacks or approaches or evading pressure rather than interaction in an offensively threatening way that everyone seems to think is the only sign of a good neutral... despite Sheik and Mario and whoever else existing and being good characters outside of their 'punishes/dd/projectile/edgegame are their only superior assets' junk...

Other random note, I think Samus is one of the better characters in the whole game.
Do I need to chart all of this out to prove it, when everyone has the numbers on their lap? Or with a bit of clarity in experience and contemplation, are you going to get better results?
Results in terms of understanding what you think about the goodness of neutrals, that is. Not results on a spreadsheet with your numbers and static answer of S tier vs F tier neutrals.
A thought-experiment worth looking at might be...
If you're making the wrong choices and I'm making all the right ones, I'll win with a bad character statistically.
So, with less 'sound' statistics on a character, do the other qualities that take place in GAME-PLAY allow of someone to sway a match in a way that they make better decisions, or make the opponent make worse decisions?
^ If you can get your head around that (this is a general you, not anyone specifically) then you too can beat Melee gods without ever playing the game a lot, rather than play against good players a lot and not be the best you can be.

Don't get hit by the things you don't want to get hit by, and hit people with the things you want to hit them with.
There's more to that than frame data. There's more to speed and lasers and shine than frame data.
There's more to neutral than what anyone is considering for Marth/Roy/Ike... Samus/Peach/whatever else was mentioned.

ANYWAYYSZZZZZZ
Everyone can just keep repeating the things I say 4 months after I say them. Seems to be a trend in this thread and the general absorbed-in-the-game-too-much people when it comes to this, which is no different than most other things in life.

Just doing my nudging. That's all I can do.
Life is cool like that. Smash is fun.

Edit: This might make good context actually @Soft Serve

But ike doesn't go far enough to fly by with nairs out of just his dash. He'd have to be in ranges his normals are generally too slow to control well to do that. He isn't Pikachu lol. Normally I agree with all you sage wisdom but I don't think we're playing the same character here

Some people think Ice Samus is worse 'in general' than Fire Samus, do you?
If so, do you think this mostly because of the changes to F-Smash and D-Tilt the way others seem to?
Isn't it interesting then, that despite ALL of the rest of the character being there, a few things out of the mix can make life so much observably/experientially harder for her?
Given this is possible, doesn't it make sense that this is very possible the other way? A simply tweak or new quality brought by a new tool, giving more strength/significance to WHAT'S ALREADY THERE despite what's already there being exactly the same?

Within the context of how I brought up the fly-by N-Air thing (before everyone went IN COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS WITH IT), there are elements and qualities to a character's neutral-game beyond how safe and certain a move is to hit without getting hit by moves in return. The thing you WANT to hit them with (the thing they DON'T want to get hit by) takes a bigger toll on a match-up than anyone seems to be giving credit, and I think that's what is being missed here. Player-to-player interaction in terms of the establishment of presence in a mental and volitional way will crush the goodness/badness in any 'technical' sense when it comes to the significance of things when applied in practice, especially when considering things as closely matched as 'Ike vs the PM cast' vs 'Marth/Roy vs the PM cast'

Hope that makes sense.

Mind over matter is real, even in neutrals.

Fox still gets hit, WITHOUT making mistakes. He's no Ivan Ooze

Edit: Bolded a thing I think might be a key concept in this topic.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

A thought-experiment worth looking at might be...
If you're making the wrong choices and I'm making all the right ones, I'll win with a bad character statistically.
So, with less 'sound' statistics on a character, do the other qualities that take place in GAME-PLAY allow of someone to sway a match in a way that they make better decisions, or make the opponent make worse decisions?
^ If you can get your head around that (this is a general you, not anyone specifically) then you too can beat Melee gods without ever playing the game a lot, rather than play against good players a lot and not be the best you can be.

Don't get hit by the things you don't want to get hit by, and hit people with the things you want to hit them with.
There's more to that than frame data. There's more to speed and lasers and shine than frame data.
There's more to neutral than what anyone is considering for Marth/Roy/Ike... Samus/Peach/whatever else was mentioned.

ANYWAYYSZZZZZZ
Everyone can just keep repeating the things I say 4 months after I say them. Seems to be a trend in this thread and the general absorbed-in-the-game-too-much people when it comes to this, which is no different than most other things in life.

Just doing my nudging. That's all I can do.
Life is cool like that. Smash is fun.

As much as I want to believe this, I don't think PM is there yet.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Just wondering, where does Squirtle struggle? I know he has a problem against CCing but what else is he weak to? What are his bad MUs? I'm a Squirtle main and I wanna know.

 

[JOE!]

Grass and Elctricity

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Master bubble and you will never struggle vs cc again. Idk enough to say any mu's, but I hear lots of Squirtle's being salty about Roy. Oh, and according to dirtboy fox is ok, you just have to play super lame.

 

[didds]

I was playing against one of our good local peaches with squirtle and it felt stupid difficult, then I started spacing water gun and grounded bubble and like magic, it worked wonders.

Squirtles jc grab is amazing and has a similar range to grounded bubble. Turtle has amazing mixup with that alone

Edit: I find the hardest part of playing squirtle is just figuring out how to play each mu since the way he needs to approach a mu can be drastically different. He can't get by on one strategy versus everyone. So like I guess no real weaknesses or something who knows

 

[Warzenschwein]

Some Squirtle matchups are relatively tough if you don't play lame which is unfortunate imo.

 

[nimigoha]

I find the hardest part of playing squirtle is just figuring out how to play each mu since the way he needs to approach a mu can be drastically different. He can't get by on one strategy versus everyone. So like I guess no real weaknesses or something who knows

Recently playing a lot of Squirtle and I find that this is so true. One reason is because he has so many approach options, picking just a few and overusing them will make some matchups incredibly difficult.

 

[Life]

Yeah, ultimately the reason that I haven't been playing Squirtle in singles (besides that I lost my drive to grind the tech as much as I ought to, and that Pit is playable again) is that in a lot of matchups the correct strategy is basically camping with Water Gun and Bubble and that's not the character I signed up for when I started picking Squirtle on the CSS. I would suggest changes to the character to orient him more towards using his superior movement, but beyond "seriously you guys still haven't given him real tech rolls yet" I'm honestly not sure what I'd do.

Nausicaa so what you're trying to say is that Ike is better at forcing the opponent to make bad decisions than Marth and Roy? Because that's ultimately why tools like dashdancing and projectiles are good, right--they force your opponent to make bad decisions? What does Ike have in this field that Marth and Roy don't? The obvious (and therefore probably incomplete) answer is Quickdraw, but is that really enough? What am I missing here that would make you say Ike is the best FE character (in neutral or generally)?

 

[Player -0]

Playing Squirtle vs. Fox is absolutely disgusting.

 

[didds]

Playing Squirtle vs. Fox is absolutely disgusting.

In what way? Like for fox it is or for squirtle?

The mu feels very sheik/spacie-ish from melee to me.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Very sheik spacies, but instead of anti air ftilt, squirtle can keep up and has a different kind of gimp game (though just as potent).

 

[PlateProp]

Until you get shined out of dtilt/dsmash

Then you just cry

 

[JOE!]

How is the Pilates/Squirtle matchup?

My phone turned pikachu into Pilates and I ain't changing it

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Thunder had STAB and has high base power

Pikachu has a much higher base speed

Squirtle's Sp. Def isn't that great and even with Eviolite, Pikachu has Light Ball ...

If Pikachu is weakened, go for Aqua Jet since Pika is made of paper, otherwise you're a dead Squirtman.

 

[KinGly]

Thunder had STAB and has high base power

Pikachu has a much higher base speed

Squirtle's Sp. Def isn't that great and even with Eviolite, Pikachu has Light Ball ...

If Pikachu is weakened, go for Aqua Jet since Pika is made of paper, otherwise you're a dead Squirtman.

I got to eviolite before I realized you weren't talking about smash.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Here am I getting all hyped about Squirtle having a chance at being good, then plate has to come in and remind me about dtilt. Dsmash is fine, don't hit people out of the air. Dtilt, welp. Don't tell anyone, it will give us a couple years. Or we could make a huge deal about it and hope the DT fixes it...

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Thunder had STAB and has high base power

Pikachu has a much higher base speed

Squirtle's Sp. Def isn't that great and even with Eviolite, Pikachu has Light Ball ...

If Pikachu is weakened, go for Aqua Jet since Pika is made of paper, otherwise you're a dead Squirtman.

Take focus sash instead. Have a torrent squirtle and make sure it knows fake out and waterfall. Highly doubt pikachu brought protect and quick attack lol.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Take focus sash instead. Have a torrent squirtle and make sure it knows fake out and waterfall. Highly doubt pikachu brought protect and quick attack lol.

Your lame-fu is most impressive

 

[JOE!]

Take focus sash instead. Have a torrent squirtle and make sure it knows fake out and waterfall. Highly doubt pikachu brought protect and quick attack lol.

Shield Button and Up B == Protect / QA

 

[tasteless gentleman]

thats besides the point. shieks recovery in melee if she doesnt have a jump is as easy to edgeguard as grabbing ledge, if she doesnt land on stage shes dead if she does punish the landing lag, repeat. a recovery move just simply cant hold someone back that hard to the point where they are a bad character. he has an onstage game near the level of fking falco tho so its cool

olimars lag is worse, olimars trajectory is worse, predictabilty is worse, more punishable, easier to edgeguard, i can keep going but im kinda floored by the comment that hes like falco in any way, because hes not.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

The general consensus is that his recovery is too frail in comparison to his onstage game, although I don't really agree with this. The whole "can't solo-main him" thing also kind of aggravates me, because this argument has applied to many characters both in 3.6 and in previous versions of project m, yet people are only starting to complain about this recently. In a game with 41 characters, extremes are going to happen and likely create near-unwinnable matchups unless your character just ignores an axis of which to approach the game on aka making them broken.

I understand why people like Sethlon would not like to play Project M due to the matchup variety and how that affects national brackets (There are like 10 people who could've won paragon if they got the bracket that they needed), but this creates it's own discussion of "Is double elimination what we should be running for this game, or should we be running more of a pool format?" rather than "do we buff Roy/etc other character?"

Oh and his ledge dash was more of "normalized" rather than "nerfed". His ledge release point was glitched so he warped upwards, allowing him to reach the stage much faster than intended. "It didn't match melee's so they had to nerf it" is a very narrow POV (See Magus' post for details: http://smashboards.com/threads/so-3-6-roy.407527/#post-19495976)

but the problem is that some characters have like 2 or 3 winning match ups, for a game that preached balance when i first picked it up, it certainly doesnt seem this way. Take bowser as a prime example probably has 0 actually winning match ups and can be counter picked into the ground.

EDIT

I just realized i double posted, can an admin connect the two posts please?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I'm confident Bowser has winning matchups this patch, he just has too much good stuff to not, he beats Roy for sure imo.

Also Squirtle Dtilt is super dumb, it's both amazing but then also horrible at the same time.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'm confident Bowser has winning matchups this patch, he just has too much good stuff to not, he beats Roy for sure imo.

Also Squirtle Dtilt is super dumb, it's both amazing but then also horrible at the same time.

I dont think bowser has winning match ups against swords... too much space and roy combos bowser badly and then into back air for free edge guard is a real thing. But I will say that if you dont know the match up, you can lose and feel like it was a losing match up also marth and roy have the right tools to shut down bowsers recovery which is huge when 1 or 2 sweet spots can send you off stage from a grab.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Actually, I think Roy is possibly Bowser's best matchup in this patch, for a number of weird reasons.

In the spirit of my math profs, the remainder is left as an exercise to the reader

 

[Life]

Actually, I think Roy is possibly Bowser's best matchup in this patch, for a number of weird reasons.

In the spirit of my math profs, the remainder is left as an exercise to the reader

*cracks knuckles*

Roy doesn't get much off of throws on Bowser since all his throw animations are weight dependent?

Roy is one of the worst Klaw fthrow weights in the game?

Bowser can nair through Roy's uair at basically any percent?

Roy has to be close to Bowser to get his best hitboxes and being close to Bowser is scary?

Roy is generally really fragile and one of Bowser's better qualities is his edgeguarding?

Nausicaa posted from your account somehow?

 

[PlateProp]

Also Squirtle Dtilt is super dumb, it's both amazing but then also horrible at the same time.

The move cant really be amazing, it relies on your opponent not knowing they can asdi down the first hit and shield/roll away from the second. No matter their percent because the first hit has set KB.

Dsmash is fine, don't hit people out of the air

This is a pretty dumb thing to say, especially when the only real problems it causes are with Spacies. No one else can hit us between the hits except maybe GnW if he's frame perfect with his up b.

Also dsmash is bad right now, dont drink daft's kool-aid the man is insane

 

[Life]

^But hey, at least its knockback is now in line with moves that are over twice as fast as it!

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Actually, I think Roy is possibly Bowser's best matchup in this patch, for a number of weird reasons.

In the spirit of my math profs, the remainder is left as an exercise to the reader

All i can think of is the speed of falling and edge guarding and bowsers fire.

 

[dirtboy345]

Just wondering, where does Squirtle struggle? I know he has a problem against CCing but what else is he weak to? What are his bad MUs? I'm a Squirtle main and I wanna know.

Squirtle struggles against a couple things. Basically there's characters that can abuse tech rolls as an obvious one. There's times where a tech situation against Roy will lead to a sweetspotted fsmash teching in place, in or away. A lot of the time choosing to not tech is the better option by far, which is fairly ridiculous. Not all tech chasing moves leave you in as bad of a situation because something likes Fox's shine can just be no tech rolled the **** out of there. But you get something like Falcon's stomp and you're in for a ride. Of course there is range, which Squirtle doesn't have much of, but I think movement covers that for the most part. Crouch canceling isn't a big one I'd say anymore due to bubble and dsmash not being 3.6b. I don't think Squirtle beats Fox in the slightest, but it's hard to get an actual grasp on his matchups in my opinion. He has overall some awful frame data on a lot of things, a recovery that can be easily intercepted but people don't do anything against, and of course gets bodied by tech rolls more than any other character. Good use of movement though can make even Fox have a hard time in neutral so idk, we aren't going to really know MUs from most characters for a long time, and Squirtle for an even longer time in my opinion. To answer the question right now though I'd say Roy for sure and then maybe a spacie/some ******* like Ness. I don't think He losses anything hard enough to not solo main, but I also don't think he bodies certain characters like some people tend to believe.

 

[Life]

Are there any characters that Squirtle actually beats provided both players have sufficient experience in the matchup?

 

[dirtboy345]

Are there any characters that Squirtle actually beats provided both players have sufficient experience in the matchup?

There's plenty I'm sure Ally and IPK will agree Squirtle wins their respective MUs, Tetra and I both agree Squirtle beats Kirby, I mean there's too many to list all.