Tier List Speculation

[AuraMaudeGone]

@Nausicaa
I usually see where your rhetoric is coming from, but not this time. lol

I tried ordering my tier list. B Tier I have little to no experience with so take that with fewer grains of salt.
C Tier doesn't mean bad either, just highly beneficial in counter pick situations.

Spoiler

S



A+



A



B




C

 

[steelguttey]

Whistle Wavebounce sends you further away from the stage, aerial Pluck has a whole bunch of frame where you're just wiggling around in the air and your opponent can go hit you. Pretty much always better to use Pluck first, then jump as you get closer because then at least you can do a rising Fair to ward people off. So it's not exactly a mixup.

His hitbox is okay but refreshing invincibility is easy against him because the jetpack moves so slowly. And it has so much landing lag that ending up onstage means you're going to get hit again.

Like I understand the PMDT's design philosophy of giving the edgeguarder more advantage than the player recovering but Olimar's recovery is free.

wavebounce downb isnt bad because it sends you away from thes tage because that might be a favorable situation if you still have your jump and neutral b. im arguing that he has ore recovery mixups than sheik, i hope that nobody thinks i think the jetpack is good. it sucks really really bad, but it isnt hopeless like everyone is saying.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

olimar also has more mixups because of down b wavebouncing, neutral b jump, and if he has a purple he can knock people off ledge, so hes much less predictable. olimars recovery has a hitbox that can hit people hogging ledge, so i can see the jetpack being harder to punish and harder to edgeguard in some situations. i never compared olimar to falco, i said he has an onstage game that is almost as good as falcos.

This

Whistle Wavebounce sends you further away from the stage, aerial Pluck has a whole bunch of frame where you're just wiggling around in the air and your opponent can go hit you. Pretty much always better to use Pluck first, then jump as you get closer because then at least you can do a rising Fair to ward people off. So it's not exactly a mixup.

His hitbox is okay but refreshing invincibility is easy against him because the jetpack moves so slowly. And it has so much landing lag that ending up onstage means you're going to get hit again.

Like I understand the PMDT's design philosophy of giving the edgeguarder more advantage than the player recovering but Olimar's recovery is free.

And it doesnt knock people off the ledge until the last hit, other wise its just gonna be punished once they di or just fall out of the attack. plus it has 1 trajectory, and some stages will trap olimar under the stage if its dont at sweetspot height.

 

[steelguttey]

it does knock people off on the multihits because the multihits have knockback. im already passed them by the time they are out of knockbac, even from the multihits unless they get a perfect tech. ive never been pineappled by the stage and it wasnt my fault with the jetpack, must be you.

 

[nimigoha]

wavebounce downb isnt bad because it sends you away from thes tage because that might be a favorable situation if you still have your jump and neutral b. im arguing that he has ore recovery mixups than sheik, i hope that nobody thinks i think the jetpack is good. it sucks really really bad, but it isnt hopeless like everyone is saying.

Yeah I can concede that. On the other hand, Sheik can transform and use Farore's as well.

But outside of that she just has fade back or like jump fair/uair.

I don't think jetpack is hopeless either, it's just not what I expected when I saw the brief glimpse in the 3.6 trailer. Makes sense that they tried to differentiate it from Diddy's jetpack, but maybe it would be better as part of a "Ness:Lucas as Diddy:Olimar" where you could charge it but it would be multihit.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

it does knock people off on the multihits because the multihits have knockback. im already passed them by the time they are out of knockbac, even from the multihits unless they get a perfect tech. ive never been pineappled by the stage and it wasnt my fault with the jetpack, must be you.

Do you play this character? I dont mean to be rude but when people dont play a character and they say "this is not bad, it must be you" or "its not bad its just different"

Its not bad in terms of physically getting to the stage, but it sucks for the position it puts you in after and predictablitly. And It IS punishable on hit and can be DI'd out of the attack all together.

 

[steelguttey]

Do you play this character? I dont mean to be rude but when people dont play a character and they say "this is not bad, it must be you" or "its not bad its just different"

Its not bad in terms of physically getting to the stage, but it sucks for the position it puts you in after and predictablitly. And It IS punishable on hit and can be DI'd out of the attack all together.

nah im a fox main. whats an rng?

its punishable on hit in some situations, but its not unusable and there are many ways where you can get back because olimar has recovery mixups. i should be asking if you play this character, jesus christ. what do you mean its bad because of the position it puts you, it puts you onstage.

 

[DMG]

You know guys, I beat M2K in a set once too!

Spoiler

In 2009


In Brawl


In Teams


In Pools (At Genesis 1)

And I have it recorded! (albeit this was phone recorded, not like recording setups were used in Pools often:

I can be the new sage of Smashboards now

 

[tasteless gentleman]

nah im a fox main. whats an rng?

its punishable on hit in some situations, but its not unusable and there are many ways where you can get back because olimar has recovery mixups. i should be asking if you play this character, jesus christ. what do you mean its bad because of the position it puts you, it puts you onstage.

Hes my secondary, I love him and use him in many match ups. And you dont use olimar and your spitting out all these "options" and "mix ups" that you dont even use in competition? Unless you edge cancel the move, you have so much lag that you get knocked back off or if they have a fast smash attack they hit that. So its either go for the ledge (probably get edge guarded) or go for the stage and hope you get far enough that your lag has worn off and you can get away and back on the offensive. I mean seriously how much lag does he even get?

And im talking about once the plucks and bounces and double jump is used. Its not like luigi where he can just float forever and fake out the opponent. your basically always heading towards the ledge so its not difficult to be patient and punish accordingly.

 

[NWRL]

I beat Sartron and MrLz twice in a doubles match with StereoKiDD. We lost the set tho ;_;

GnW is fine :^) just SDI to the left

 

[Kneato]

@Nausicaa
I usually see where your rhetoric is coming from, but not this time. lol

I tried ordering my tier list. B Tier I have little to no experience with so take that with fewer grains of salt.
C Tier doesn't mean bad either, just highly beneficial in counter pick situations.

Spoiler

S



A+



A



B




C

Hm very similar, I wonder where these opinions came from:

Spoiler

S

A

B

C

D

 

[Boiko]

Hes my secondary, I love him and use him in many match ups. And you dont use olimar and your spitting out all these "options" and "mix ups" that you dont even use in competition?

guttey plays Olimar.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

guttey plays Olimar.

So He lied Or trolled me, conversation is over.

Next topic, i think iceys should be higher because of "Fumbles" look him up, hes scary with his make shift chain grabs.

 

[eideeiit]

@Nausicaa I remember some mention of you, a stream and some quality talk about smash like 5 months ago. Did this ever happen or not?

 

[Scuba Steve]

So He lied Or trolled me, conversation is over.

Next topic, i think iceys should be higher because of "Fumbles" look him up, hes scary with his make shift chain grabs.

You must be new here

 

[steelguttey]

Hes my secondary, I love him and use him in many match ups. And you dont use olimar and your spitting out all these "options" and "mix ups" that you dont even use in competition? Unless you edge cancel the move, you have so much lag that you get knocked back off or if they have a fast smash attack they hit that. So its either go for the ledge (probably get edge guarded) or go for the stage and hope you get far enough that your lag has worn off and you can get away and back on the offensive. I mean seriously how much lag does he even get?

And im talking about once the plucks and bounces and double jump is used. Its not like luigi where he can just float forever and fake out the opponent. your basically always heading towards the ledge so its not difficult to be patient and punish accordingly.

jesus christ, im kidding. ive been playing olimar in tournament since the beginning of 3.0, through 3.5. i dont play fox, LMAO

it isnt laggy enough to the point where its similar to sheik where you can just hold edge and then if you see that he doesnt grab ledge and just lands on stage you can walk up and punish. he gets 20 frames of lag iirc, the same as fox and ness.

well if you used your double jump and pluck then you deserve to get edgeguarded. you have to save those if your offstage as olimar because it gives you momentum that you can use to wavebounce down b.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

jesus christ, im kidding. ive been playing olimar in tournament since the beginning of 3.0, through 3.5. i dont play fox, LMAO

it isnt laggy enough to the point where its similar to sheik where you can just hold edge and then if you see that he doesnt grab ledge and just lands on stage you can walk up and punish. he gets 20 frames of lag iirc, the same as fox and ness.

well if you used your double jump and pluck then you deserve to get edgeguarded. you have to save those if your offstage as olimar because it gives you momentum that you can use to wavebounce down b.

fine, post this wave bounce down b as a mix up and ill forget every thing i just said if this is actually a usable option.

 

[steelguttey]

fine, post this wave bounce down b as a mix up and ill forget every thing i just said if this is actually a usable option.

zygo does it at around 0:03 and throughout the whole match here

 

[DMG]

Everything is usable if you use your mind

 

[mimgrim]

Speaking of bowser: I don't see the harm in him having something like his smash 4 up b, where the more he mashes b, the higher he rises - Luigi/ics style. It would give him a better vertical on top of his already good horizontal. It can still be edgeguarded quite easily but it still gives him a much better chance of coming back.

Bowser's Smash 4 recovery isn't exactly a mashing recovery though.

If you mash B as soon as you start the recovery you will get less distance.

Instead you want to press B a couple of times once Bowser reaches the apex of his Up Special in Smash 4 for maximum distance.

Just saying. :L

 

[tasteless gentleman]

zygo does it at around 0:03 and throughout the whole match here

I watched and i was really interested until i saw that it was 3.5, what about when i have to use 3.6 recovery -.-?

 

[dirtboy345]

So He lied Or trolled me, conversation is over.

Next topic, i think iceys should be higher because of "Fumbles" look him up, hes scary with his make shift chain grabs.

I played Fumbles at Shuffle, he just used the infinite really. And I want to say he admitted the character would be bad without it, which it's now removed. Does he still play ICs?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Hm very similar, I wonder where these opinions came from:

Spoiler

S

A

B

C

D

Just because it's similar doesn't mean it was ripped off. A lot of characters are already vaguely defined as being better than others, and as more lists are posted, it's natural for there to be some convergence in public opinion. Especially if he's been reading the entire thread because everyone's sharing their knowledge.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I played Fumbles at Shuffle, he just used the infinite really. And I want to say he admitted the character would be bad without it, which it's now removed. Does he still play ICs?

it is not removed, he just has to add an extra step (literally, just move forward a little bit) unless the character is big in which case its still an infinite.) Also when you said you played him, who won anyway and how many stocks were lost to the infinite?

 

[Kneato]

Just because it's similar doesn't mean it was ripped off. A lot of characters are already vaguely defined as being better than others, and as more lists are posted, it's natural for there to be some convergence in public opinion. Especially if he's been reading the entire thread because everyone's sharing their knowledge.

I wasn't implying it was ripped off. Aura curates the community matchup chart. I've lurked, commented on the thread, and done some of my own data manipulation on it. We both have similar tier lists because we are both basing them off of the matchup chart which is what I was implying.

For the record, I think that's the only way tier lists should be created. Individual speculation and opinion is one thing, but once a consensus over most characters' matchups is come to, those matchups dictate how good a character is, not how good some people "feel" they are.

 

[steelguttey]

I watched and i was really interested until i saw that it was 3.5, what about when i have to use 3.6 recovery -.-?

the point of me showing it to you was so you could see the application. if you have a jump, you can jump and use the momentum you got from the jump to move in the other direction with the wavebounce to avoid an edgeguard then use the jetpack.

 

[Boiko]

it is not removed, he just has to add an extra step (literally, just move forward a little bit) unless the character is big in which case its still an infinite.) Also when you said you played him, who won anyway and how many stocks were lost to the infinite?

The center stage infinite hand off no longer works. The only hand off that functions is one by the ledge. Simple solution to beating it is don't get caught by the ledge against ICs.

 

[Spralwers]

Spoiler

S

Can I hear the logic for Metaknight being an S tier? Is it based more on his current speculated MU spread or is it based more on a speculated max power level you can reach with his toolkit?

 

[Narelex]

Can I hear the logic for Metaknight being an S tier? Is it based more on his current speculated MU spread or is it based more on a speculated max power level you can reach with his toolkit?

This is basically the same as a post I made earlier but since someone asked again.

"Fast movement speed. One of the best dashdances in the game. Quick moves, decent finishers. Solid OOS options, good grabs, good techchase, potent edgeguards, a very scary punish game and being above him is extremely dangerous."

Overall he's just a very well rounded character. While he might not dominate some MU's the way Fox/Ike can. He has the toolkit to take on any in the cast.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I wasn't implying it was ripped off. Aura curates the community matchup chart. I've lurked, commented on the thread, and done some of my own data manipulation on it. We both have similar tier lists because we are both basing them off of the matchup chart which is what I was implying.

For the record, I think that's the only way tier lists should be created. Individual speculation and opinion is one thing, but once a consensus over most characters' matchups is come to, those matchups dictate how good a character is, not how good some people "feel" they are.

I see. It just came across the wrong way. Sorry man.

 

[redbeanjelly]

re: nausicaa

never got a chance to respond to this from like 4 days ago but

yes, I do think 50% of people are just pretending to understand him, even if not consciously; rather they see the few accurate/verifiable things he says, and then extrapolate their own meanings of his confusing/nonsensical ramblings because they've assumed the burden of communication is on them for not understanding rather than on nausicaa for not properly communicating. And there's no reason to believe that the issue is just lack of communication ability, chances are he also makes as little sense in his head as he does in typing. The crazy sage character is a character trope, not a real life personality. In real life, the more crazily you communicate, the less valid your ideas are even if people understand what you're saying. Add to this that he has no verifiable claims for having "tutored" or "trained" top players and no evidence of his level of play to back up any of his statements. The more people put him on ignore the better. Not because he's a bad person or w/e, but reading his posts is seroiusly draining my sanity and it's hard to avoid when he makes himself the fucking center of the thread constantly.

Nausicaa's like one of those characters from a Shakespearean tragedy, where we're not sure if they've really gone mad or if it's a ruse and they're really ingeniously plotting against us. And just like Shakespearean tragedy, I've grown bored of reading it, but sadly there's no Sparknotes for Nausicaa.

 

[Spralwers]

"Fast movement speed. One of the best dashdances in the game. Quick moves, decent finishers. Solid OOS options, good grabs, good techchase, potent edgeguards, a very scary punish game and being above him is extremely dangerous."

So if you're looking at toolkit strength, I speculate he's more A+/A tier and here's why: short grab reach (which makes DD grab less threatening than it actually seems to be, and it's not like he has CF/Sonic movement), difficulty vs projectiles, and that he needs to get up close where he's at risk of getting hit/shield grabbed (because his attacks leave him at such bad frame disadvantage on shield unless he does late shffls) and CC'd in order to convert. His OoS game is only good vs stubby characters (who can't space attacks to avoid grab/nair OoS), altho his quick WD OoS is nice. He does have a very scary punish game, but lots of characters have a scary punish game on him, esp with his horrible tech roll and combo weight. His side B actually has pretty bad reach (learned this the other day when I beat it with Marth bair) and can be beat/traded by non stubbies, so he can get edgeguarded fairly easily if he has to use side b to recover.

I think the only character who could be S tier if you rank by toolkit strength is Fox, but even then there are valid arguments to him being more A+/A. Guess it depends where you draw the line for S.

But if Auramaude put him in S tier due to his speculated MU spread, I can't argue with that.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Can I hear the logic for Metaknight being an S tier? Is it based more on his current speculated MU spread or is it based more on a speculated max power level you can reach with his toolkit?

Pretty much what Narelex told you is what he would tell me. With additional reading, yea MK seems like he could comfortably take on the cast.

Kneato
MU chart influences it a bit. There's also some personal bias and what I've seen in a recent stuff I've watched.

 

[MLGF]

Meat Knight's great, but I want to see at least some results before I jump this top 5 train.

 

[Narelex]

So if you're looking at toolkit strength, I speculate he's more A+/A tier and here's why: short grab reach (which makes DD grab less threatening than it actually seems to be, and it's not like he has CF/Sonic movement), difficulty vs projectiles, and that he needs to get up close where he's at risk of getting hit/shield grabbed (because his attacks leave him at such bad frame disadvantage on shield unless he does late shffls) and CC'd in order to convert. His OoS game is only good vs stubby characters (who can't space attacks to avoid grab/nair OoS), altho his quick WD OoS is nice. He does have a very scary punish game, but lots of characters have a scary punish game on him, esp with his horrible tech roll and combo weight. His side B actually has pretty bad reach (learned this the other day when I beat it with Marth bair) and can be beat/traded by non stubbies, so he can get edgeguarded fairly easily if he has to use side b to recover.

I think the only character who could be S tier if you rank by toolkit strength is Fox, but even then there are valid arguments to him being more A+/A. Guess it depends where you draw the line for S.

But if Auramaude put him in S tier due to his speculated MU spread, I can't argue with that.

MK doesn't actually have a weakness to projectiles. I'll quote Strong Bad's Post on the MK boards from awhile ago.

"I feel MK's weakness to projectiles is often overstated. He has the grounded mobility, and jumps, to dodge them or shield -> WD oos against most of them. Yeah he can't clank them, but all the best projectiles are unclankable/have a fire rate such that clanking them is very risky anyway, or are items like Gyro/Turnips/Tink bombs/Bananas. In that context he's probably somewhere in the top 8ish characters at dealing with them."

MK doesn't approach with SHFFL's much, he plays a lot like Marth where he is primarily grounded in the neutral game and can use aerials if the situation permits.

MK's grab is scary not because of its reach but due to his speed. His ability to close a gap very quickly. Especially with how quickly he reaches top speed compared to most other characters.

Whether a character belongs in S tier completely depends on our personal definitions of what "S" entails. Is it only the best character in the game? Is it simply the highest tier? Does it require a character to be above and beyond the others? It's why I've personally stopped using it, in any hypothetical lists that I've constructed. Since it tends to create more confusion and clogs up the discussion with simple answers like " X isn't S tier."

How would everyone define S tier in their minds?

Meat Knight's great, but I want to see at least some results before I jump this top 5 train.

This is basically why if I made a list based off likelihood to win tourney's I wouldn't place him as top.

I think he's a character that has the potential to easily be a top 5 character. We need to see more correct use of him. The sheer variety in characters and who the top players play tends to also skew this. We don't really have a "MK exclusive main that places well" other then Holy who's up in Eastern Canada.

 

[Swigo]

How would everyone define S tier in their minds?

In my mind S tier is characters that have no losing matchups except to other s tier characters, as well as having such dominant matchups so as to essentially invalidate a character (eg. Sheik v Bowser in Melee). I think the problem with S tier is that the label implies that these characters are notably above everyone else, but in PM the game is balanced well enough that I don't think anybody needs to worry too much about losing at the character select screen

 

[_Chrome]

Can I hear the logic for Metaknight being an S tier? Is it based more on his current speculated MU spread or is it based more on a speculated max power level you can reach with his toolkit?

Simply put, Meta Knight is a mathematically formidable character. His neutral game is very Marth-esque and his punish game is top tier. He has tools to avoid projectiles, has good finishing moves, and is incredibly fast and hard to hit.

If you took a quick look at his frame data you would find that the vast majority of his moves have nice hitboxes (due to him using a sword) while maintaining low startup and low cool-down. He's the closest thing to a "sword spacie" that the game has.

 

[CORY]

How would everyone define S tier in their minds?

A lot like swigo said. Do you have no true losing matchups? Or only to irrelevant characters ( less applicable in a patchable game)?

Potentially s tier.

Do you also hard counter a lot of the cast?

Probably stier.

Hard counter one or more relevant (top tier characters) along with the previous statements? Yeah, you're likely s tier...

Like, brawl mk was s tier. Diddy or snake or something might be top tier, but mk is that much better than them and to such a degree that he deserves his own classing, above the top tiers.

I agree with spralwers that the only character who could be s tier in pm is fox, and he might just be the lone member of a+ rather than in s.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

How would everyone define S tier in their minds?

1) You have no reason to change characters in your bracket run
2) No raw counters

This is applicable to high level players only ofc.

 

[Player -0]

Before I go deep with misinformation does dimensional cape have a hurtbox while MK is invisible or is he completely intangible? Because shortened (MK boards have to have an acronym or something for this) dimensional cape has really good BKB/KBG for such a quick move/burst thingy.

Also people from specific boards correct every thing that could possibly implied to be misinformation pls. You people are the reason I chill in this thread.