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Before I go deep with misinformation does dimensional cape have a hurtbox while MK is invisible or is he completely intangible? Because shortened (MK boards have to have an acronym or something for this) dimensional cape has really good BKB/KBG for such a quick move/burst thingy.
Also people from specific boards correct every thing that could possibly implied to be misinformation pls. You people are the reason I chill in this thread.
He's intangible after the little star appears frame 23-31 but his hurtbox appears before he does prior to the slash.
Instant Dimensional Cape is the term you're looking for (IDC). Fastest possible one hits on frame 13. It has a lot of endlag so it tends to be a high risk/high reward move. It has 48 frames before you can act after a slash of any kind.
Player -0
I think that he's tangible for a few frames before the slash, but only for maybe 2. I'm not sure but I hit MK out of DC a lot. Maybe an MK can correct me, since I just do it off of feel.
The center stage infinite hand off no longer works. The only hand off that functions is one by the ledge. Simple solution to beating it is don't get caught by the ledge against ICs.
Depends on the size of the character and that is such a lame answer, no one plans to get caught by anything. Thats like saying dont get grabbed by iceys in melee. You can plan all day but it just happens especially when its the opponents game plan.
the point of me showing it to you was so you could see the application. if you have a jump, you can jump and use the momentum you got from the jump to move in the other direction with the wavebounce to avoid an edgeguard then use the jetpack.
It does not function the same though because pluck was nerfed and the recovery is different entirely and considering im arguing how 3.6 recovery sucks and you are showing me a 3.5 video... yea this doesnt work.
Tier list at this point on the games development are pointless and really arrogant to assume we know what the game is actually like
but here's one anyway
no order within tiers, alphabetized instead.
A+++ tier:
Should never need to switch off their character, very few if any bad MUs.
A + Tier:
have a few MUs that they could switch off of and do better, but have no unwinnable or heavily negative MUs at a top level. Also invalidate many characters.
A tier:
Have some bad MUs but few if anything worse than a 40/60, normally have negative MUs vs characters above them. Some just have very mellow MU spreads (mario, peach, lucas, sonic) while others are very polarizing (falcon, tink, etc) who lose hard to a few characters and hard body most others.. Very potent characters that could win an event with probably any bracket.
B+ tier:
Good characters with some less than good MUs. fantastic potential but need a right bracket to win a large tournament due to a larger amount of difficult MUs.
Dont do this to yourself tier:
Just way too much work. Have some Good MUs under their belts (DK vs FE, Kirby vs shiek, Bowser vs someone probably), but those aren't enough to make up for how bad general MU spreads are. Counter pick characters.
B tier is probably too big but I can't see any way to split it up accurately without sectioning it off into 3 tiers, which implies a greater difference is character ability than I would want.
Depends on the size of the character and that is such a lame answer, no one plans to get caught by anything. Thats like saying dont get grabbed by iceys in melee. You can plan all day but it just happens especially when its the opponents game plan.
I'm sorry if you feel that answer is "lame." That is the most optimal way to play the match up. Is it objectively "lame" that Fox's answer to Puff is laser camp? You don't need to over-complicate everything; sometimes the answer is simple.
I play against a top IC's player on a regular basis. If I get grabbed by the ledge, I usually die, so why would I hang around at the edge of the stage? If I am stuck at the edge of the stage, would I do something like an ill-spaced forward tilt on shield and risk getting grabbed? No. I'm playing the match up. I'm safely working my way back to center stage to prevent getting grabbed by the ledge and dying.
Tier list at this point on the games development are pointless and really arrogant to assume we know what the game is actually like
but here's one anyway
no order within tiers, alphabetized instead.
A+++ tier:
Should never need to switch off their character, very few if any bad MUs.
A + Tier:
have a few MUs that they could switch off of and do better, but have no unwinnable or heavily negative MUs at a top level. Also invalidate many characters.
A tier:
Have some bad MUs but few if anything worse than a 40/60, normally have negative MUs vs characters above them. Some just have very mellow MU spreads (mario, peach, lucas, sonic) while others are very polarizing (falcon, tink, etc) who lose hard to a few characters and hard body most others.. Very potent characters that could win an event with probably any bracket.
B+ tier:
Good characters with some less than good MUs. fantastic potential but need a right bracket to win a large tournament due to a larger amount of difficult MUs.
Dont do this to yourself tier:
Just way too much work. Have some Good MUs under their belts (DK vs FE, Kirby vs shiek, Bowser vs someone probably), but those aren't enough to make up for how bad general MU spreads are. Counter pick characters.
B tier is probably too big but I can't see any way to split it up accurately without sectioning it off into 3 tiers, which implies a greater difference is character ability than I would want.
I don't understand it. I feel like not enough of you guys actually see DK play, and are more fiddling with him yourself, not knowing what to do and saying 'welp not really sure how this guy could be any good'.
DK is a bait and punish character. He has a superb DD with an enormous grab that can instantly turn into 50% or, on fastfallers, instant death.
He has a good run speed, he has 50/50 mixups on both combo and kill moves for most of the cast, he has a powerful multi-use Nair, a huge Bair, and a lightning fast Uair.
He can literally 0-death Spacies on reacting to their DI. He has a wicked OOS option. He has a long recovery that can deal loads of damage. He has an enormous and I mean enormous Down B that sets up into a free move at like any percent. He has an intangible move that kills everyone at 80%.
I know I sound like I'm making him out to be the best character but he undoubtedly has flaws. His recovery has little vertical movement, he can be quite susceptible to combos, and he can struggle with projectiles (or learn to powershield them like dedicated DK mains do).
Grouping him with Bowser is absolutely preposterous.
I don't understand it. I feel like not enough of you guys actually see DK play, and are more fiddling with him yourself, not knowing what to do and saying 'welp not really sure how this guy could be any good'.
DK is a bait and punish character. He has a superb DD with an enormous grab that can instantly turn into 50% or, on fastfallers, instant death.
He has a good run speed, he has 50/50 mixups on both combo and kill moves for most of the cast, he has a powerful multi-use Nair, a huge Bair, and a lightning fast Uair.
He can literally 0-death Spacies on reacting to their DI. He has a wicked OOS option. He has a long recovery that can deal loads of damage. He has an enormous and I mean enormous Down B that sets up into a free move at like any percent. He has an intangible move that kills everyone at 80%.
I know I sound like I'm making him out to be the best character but he undoubtedly has flaws. His recovery has little vertical movement, he can be quite susceptible to combos, and he can struggle with projectiles (or learn to powershield them like dedicated DK mains do).
Grouping him with Bowser is absolutely preposterous.
yeah, like half the cast does everything you described that he does (other than down b) with better defense and safer neutral. His dash dance is okay, its long but he is also a giant target so more of his effective space that he holds is also taken up by his huge hitbox. Yeah, hes got a good punish game on fast fallers,one of the few that start at 0 from a grab, doesn't make his MU spread that great. Petty sure most DK mains agree his MU spread is garbage. The best thing he has going for him is easy death combos on part of the cast, but his combo game on floaties is horrific and he struggles in neutral vs anyone with a good defencive game or a comparable dash dance, because most characters are safer. He is litterally dash dance grab the character, bu without the best dash dance or most consistent grab follow ups on a good portion of the cast.
yeah, like half the cast does everything you described that he does (other than down b) with better defense and safer neutral. His dash dance is okay, its long but he is also a giant target so more of his effective space that he holds is also taken up by his huge hitbox. Yeah, hes got a good punish game on fast fallers,one of the few that start at 0 from a grab, doesn't make his MU spread that great. Petty sure most DK mains agree his MU spread is garbage. The best thing he has going for him is easy death combos on part of the cast, but his combo game on floaties is horrific and he struggles in neutral vs anyone with a good defencive game or a comparable dash dance, because most characters are safer. He is litterally dash dance grab the character, bu without the best dash dance or most consistent grab follow ups on a good portion of the cast.
He doesn't really need to combo past 50% when that's insta-kill percent from a grab on 90% of the cast. Everyone but the super duper floaties just get cargo-punched to death. Not saying he's good/great, but he's certainly stupid.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "better defence". Something better than a frame 3 OOS option?
DK has a Nair that goes though a bunch of projectiles and if late on shield can set up into Jab/Grab mixups that can beat shieldgrabs. Many other characters can do this of course but what about DK's neutral is so terrible?
People tend to rate Lucario's neutral pretty badly without Aura, and even then it's not as good with the intang on DT not transferring anymore. Most people say that his combo game is what brings him up. The stigma used to be that it was rubbish but Lucarios have introduced new tools to help that, such a dtilt. DK has a dtilt with low startup and far reach. He doesn't have a projectile but I hope you can get my general point about his neutral; he has more options than people think. His dash attack doesn't have a lot of cooldown, can eat projectiles and sets up a trajectory straight into combos.
DK's combos on floaties aren't horrific because he doesn't need to combo them to a percent where they fly too far away. His kill moves and setups into them work at relatively low percents.
Like I'm not saying DK is a top tier character. I just think that anyone who groups him with Bowser hasn't looked into the character nearly enough, because he combos harder, plays a neutral better many times over, kills more easily, and has a better recovery.
The biggest problem I see with DK is his neutral tools that are good dont lead into his punish game. The ones that do are harder to land.
As for why he is consistently placed low. I think its a combination of pessimistic mains and him being universally agreed as bad. The second sounds weird, but if there are 4 characters one person thinks is bad and someone else only agrees with one of those, multiply that by all tier speculators and the few everyone agrees on will get there own tier even if they aren't noticeably worse in everyones opinion.
Everyone knows the cons, so going to state what dk has going for him instead.
Dk pros: kills fire emblem... I want you to slowly analyze this one. It's great you are able to objectively see this. I could throw in a few more but they are less agreed upon. Now pmdt is great, but do you really think it is possible to make a character that beats roy marth and ike, while losing to the rest of the cast?
Goes even with a lot more of the cast than people are willing to give him credit for.
Access to cheesy suicide/kill options with cargo.
Extremely easy combos relative to the rest of the cast makes his execution game consistent if one plays around his strengths.
Back air is one of the easiest edgeguard tools available, and up b makes for a decent escape option in several combos(not great but an option.) Good oos with a nice get up option as well as <100 ledge getup. a down b tech chase that allows any move followup. And armored dash attack that is jump cancellable into nair is an added tool to his already good ground speed.
Best of all against a lot of the cast cargo throw is essentially a kill throw, and if your in the unfortunate weight class/fall speed, he has a guaranteed fair at certain percents and you can either get hit by the spike or strong knockback attack. Dk isn't special, but he definitely isn't bad either.
The biggest problem I see with DK is his neutral tools that are good dont lead into his punish game. The ones that do are harder to land.
As for why he is consistently placed low. I think its a combination of pessimistic mains and him being universally agreed as bad. The second sounds weird, but if there are 4 characters one person thinks is bad and someone else only agrees with one of those, multiply that by all tier speculators and the few everyone agrees on will get there own tier even if they aren't noticeably worse in everyones opinion.
Please elaborate on the first point. At most percents all his neutral tools either set up a combo or hit your opponent far away. The ones that don't are Ftilt and Dtilt. Nair, Jab, DA, and Grab all do.
I feel like he doesn't have a lot of mains to begin with. Maybe as a result of loads of people pooping on him. But Poob dropped him I think and Strong Bad said he optimized playing the character and that he has no further potential. Okay.
So we definitely have a case of pessimistic mains, which happens quite a lot with loads of characters like Nes. But with Ness, we had a bunch of mains do quite well at Paragon and claim it was due to matchup inexperience (they definitely played out of their mind though, and sorry if I'm incorrectly paraphrasing you guys). So we have an example of people who thought their character was bad, stuck with him anyway, and landed some results.
People give up on DK because they see others give up on him.
Searing_Sorrow
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a guaranteed Fair. His C-Uthrow/Fthrow 50/50 mixup is fantastic though. They DI an Fthrow backwards and you get a free Fair, they DI the Uthrow forwards and you get a free Fair/Uair. And if they properly DI the Uthrow behind, a lot of the time you can still get a Bair.
Your FE analysis is also spot on.
This character is so much better than Bowser like OMFG why you people put them in the same tier is beyond me.
Oh wait no it's not, it's the "people sh*t all over this character and few people play him and almost no one plays him at a high level and I almost never watch him so he must be garbage tier I'm so smart" tier.
Please elaborate on the first point. At most percents all his neutral tools either set up a combo or hit your opponent far away. The ones that don't are Ftilt and Dtilt. Nair, Jab, DA, and Grab all do.
I feel like he doesn't have a lot of mains to begin with. Maybe as a result of loads of people pooping on him. But Poob dropped him I think and Strong Bad said he optimized playing the character and that he has no further potential. Okay.
So we definitely have a case of pessimistic mains, which happens quite a lot with loads of characters like Nes. But with Ness, we had a bunch of mains do quite well at Paragon and claim it was due to matchup inexperience (they definitely played out of their mind though, and sorry if I'm incorrectly paraphrasing you guys). So we have an example of people who thought their character was bad, stuck with him anyway, and landed some results.
People give up on DK because they see others give up on him.
Edit: These spoiler tags are SICK!
In a good way.
That chunk of writing within the Spoilers for Boiko are universally delicious.
If you're gonna read anything in this mess, read Boiko's chunk.
Project M Squirtle is what happens when Roller Blades are brought to a 2D platform.
I find in funny that Sonic and Bowser are nearly opposites when it comes to both game-play and character, but they both present a fondness for Soulsilver/Heartgold Bike physics through their Dash mechanics.
MK is basically a Destructo Disk thrown by somebody A LOT BETTER AT IT than Krillin.
Good posts, good points, good reads.
If anyone is to read the last 5 pages, they should be reading the posts by those mentioned above. They held the fort down, broke the ground, kept the ball rolling. Whatever you want to call it.
Did some good exploring and disecting of this game from many directions, many topics, and many interesting things came up.
Boiko
(wrote lots for you, but could be good for others too, all good stuff *thumbs up)
There's some good discussion going on, has been for a few pages. Yet now you've picked out some weird nuances and didn't follow the trail. It leads (it really does) to everything you've pointed out, and more, in very different ways too. You see this, don't you? I'm sure you do, sounds like you have anyway.
Everything was resolved, a lot better than it would have with someone just coming in and explaining everything.
It would seem you missed a lot. Not saying this as a 'mistake' type of thing, but there is more reason to the madness and you KNOW that it is there, all of the steps and topics about each of these topics was indeed fleshed out and elaborated on. You can see that.
I understand what you're saying about being direct and clear, it's quite... normal, you could say. That was never the point. The point is always the things that I've highlighted in my posts. The mental process and exploration from different angles, the "learning how to approach the game" instead of how to approach IN the game, is ALWAYS the point. You get that point, I'm sure.
If you look again, too, you'll notice the whole 'process' you're describing there actually went in a more efficient direction than it could have been in any other way. BECAUSE of this.
2nd note, worth mentioning.
I didn't put up a shroud, no matter how you want to see it.
Obviously what I'm saying makes sense. Many people get it. Whether right away, or eventually. Some peg it perfectly, others have their own ways of seeing it. Interpret it how one will, that's how one will see it. That is the practice that is preached, and the preaching is the practice. Not on 'my' end, on everyone's end.
They've figured it out for themselves. You've figured whatever you've figured out, for yourself. This will always be the case in every facet of life that counts.
-As mentioned in earlier posts, this is never referring to figuring out things in the sense of getting more 'knowledge' or whatever.
I'm sure you got it, but if you want, read that little sentence again ^, if you can know EXACTLY what this is referring to, then you're set for life.
You might already, and if so, stop going back to this. Stop going back to thinking 'you' have to be the one to get it into other people's heads. I didn't even have to explain anything directly, or even my point of view, and people saw THEIR OWN point of view a little clearer.
How is this relevant specifically to you? (I'll be making a few statements here, the 'pretending' thing, just to get the point across, but they're examples of what can happen)
You're completely right about everything regarding Ness, and the things you like to discuss.
Now, isn't that just from clarity you have on the subject, or subjects surrounding Ness? How would you have come to this with anything but a clear understanding about that which you are preaching to others about Ness and what should be done with him and what makes him good/bad and what qualities he has and how they function?
How else would it be? Clarity about Ness is why/how/what you have about Ness. That is why you're are RIGHT ABOUT NESS.
You COULD tell everyone, over and over, that Ness is this and Ness is that. It may reach some. Maybe you'll present it in many forms. Graphs, writing, playing, explaining, showing.
Yet, it would STILL not fully help anyone understand why/how/what you have THIS CLARITY ABOUT NESS. Therefore, it won't ever help anyone GET the clarity about Ness that you have.
What do?
Wouldn't providing content to help others see clearly NATURALLY lead them to see the way you do? How would you go about that? It may be difficult, abstract, even not make sense to some because everyone is 'set in certain ways' and some of those ways won't be met. They may not get the clear path to the place of CLARITY that you're trying to guide them through.
Yet, it's the only way that someone can GET their own clarity. YOU can not take the steps for THEM. No matter how you try it.
It may be tricky, but it's easier than trying to cram Ness-facts down a thread's throat. Trust me on that one. lol
PS in case it wasn't clear: It works, it has worked over and over again, you saw it in the last 5 pages that it worked once again, and it works in everything in life, not just smash.
I'll be sticking to it. If you can go along with it (when it happens), rather than try to change it or shift it or stop it from going, and just move with it and try to understand why you/me/ANYONE comes to understand what they know, I know very well that you will benefit from it. You'll find something, at least, and that's more than most discussion will ever 'give' you/the person you're talking to/me.
Many people got some of this in the last 5 pages, myself included, because we went with it. Not shutting it down, but moving into new territory. Some resistance, which was ignored, was there, but everyone who wanted to, whether to great degrees or little degrees... made it through and benefited.
This isn't just for my junk or whatever, this is for junk in general. For everyone's junk that you ever encounter. We had a lot of junk from all sorts of directions in the last 5 pages, and every 5 pages will have all sorts of new junk from new people. We're all different, on different clouds, climbing different mountains. You're here with all of us, you have your own clouds to deal with. Don't worry about trying to clear my clouds, and I'm not worried about yours. I have my own to worry about, YOU have to deal with yours.
This is what I see. This make sense?
I hope it helps as something you can reflect on. Even just holding it as a memory or context for a later time.
It's all I can do, is provide the catalyst and mirror to bounce off of. You get to bounce.
This is what I see, and hope you see it too.
I'm sure you see it (at least now but probably earlier and just needed it in words) too.
Boiko
and others reading (if you're crazy enough to do this), I'd stop there and soak it all in at that point for a while, both personally, and if I was with others in-person.
Then maybe read the rest after, I wrote a **** load of stuff there, and there's only a bit more, but if you're crazy, read on! I guess reading this is a good break-up though...
For example/elaboration of clarity stuff... (this is what I enjoy/do after all)
It's your shroud blocking your view, and I can only suggest trying to look at these things (when they happen) as if that's the case. That make sense? I could 'try' clearing it away with a massive dialogue on why Ness is or isn't the way you see him, but BOTH of us would benefit much more if I simply did what I could to see clearly, and did what I could to make sure you're seeing as clearly as you could. The same goes from you to me.
Sure, we'll be using stats (useful in many ways), frame-data (popular favorite around here), stories (apparent nobody knows what they're for), and big rants on concepts and theories.
BUT, if we're trying to understand how the other SEES this stuff, and guide us to a medium where we're seeing the same thing LONG before the thing we're looking at is the center-piece of attention, ONLY then will we be getting the clarity (where you're REALLY dealing with as mentioned above) that we're both searching for. (for both each other and ourselves)
Even just pretend, if that makes sense, only for a moment, that you have a shroud. Obviously there's SOME of it with each of us. You can see it, because you're not seeing the game the same way everyone else is. Imagine how much you'd see if you looked for the shroud? It seemed to work for @Life and then a post came in the light of what I was saying, but in Life's own way, own words, etc, and it made a little more sense of things I described earlier for both parties AND MORE, but especially for Life, because it was Life's work that brought it out.
It was likely in a better context for others to understand too. When I say things like that, I use words and sentences that are too big. lul
Long sentences there, but you get it I'm sure.
Another person can only be a catalyst for things, it's up to the individual to get the clarity. You'll see the shroud as you have now IF you indeed can see one now, and you'll notice this shroud has never belonged to me.
Above: That's the good stuff. That's why we're here. (any of us) That's something that everyone does without knowing they're doing it, and would benefit from knowing that that is indeed what they're doing.
Below: I'll discuss other stuff here, even though it's not even worth noting. Redundant silliness is always a thing, it seems. The cycle won't stop around here, just keeps getting kicked by noobs. lol
I'm not sure if it's worth a chuckle or a cringe that you'd think this, but you just rewrote my exact words.
What you said in a lot of what you wrote is EXACTLY MY POINT. Thanks for repeating it for others, but I think you directed it at the reflections people were getting back from projecting it into the thread immaturely.
Side note: I just realized in reading over this, that^ may be the most perfectly proper use I've ever encountered the word immature by its ACTUAL definition, wow haha
This would have been an 'Oh my, this is what you're getting?' type of thing, but some people around here pay a lot of attention to that, so I understand why you'd think that on the surface.
I think you might want to re-read how things are going. For example (one of MANY of them), literally 9 posts up from yours there's a post 100% about that from someone else who thinks it's worth mentioning (tourney wins or whatever else) in comment to another person's post in a completely different context. It was about me, (both posts) and had literally NOTHING to do with me.
I thought it was a joke and he was 'getting it' that it was essentially (blunt again) pathetic to bring up, but it seems something else was 'gotten' instead.
With THIS logic that people seem to have about these things (the logic you described and others mention for no reasons worth mentioning)
The story should be... "MrL won the last thingy with GW, and therefore, you, MrL and GW, are now the most important, most interesting, things in the universe. (Lego Movie reference)"
Everything this player says and does must be gold. The character is OP too.
^ If that sounds funny to you, then you might want to look at it both ways. It sounds JUST as funny when you're talking about it regarding ANY player. Don't forget it, because it's silly. I think everyone 'gets' that, but only looks at the 1 side of the coin. Make sense? I'm sure it does to you, apparently it doesn't to the people who were bringing it up.
I'm sure that's clear, but just in case.
The point of anything that I (or others) have brought up in reference to me (or others) is no different than a point brought up with no reference at all. It can only ever be context to understand a point a little better.
Points are brought up as stories. History has stories. They can provide context, and should not be seen as more than that. In the discussions myself and others were having, these stories were functional. Go read the way OTHERS were bringing up these stories, and you'll have your culprits of this ignorance.
So what if there's a story attached? Often stories help.
- When the story is taken with more significance, validity, and attention, than the point being made-
Then THAT is 'exactly' the precise point where an individual... to put very bluntly... failed, at being a person living this good old human experience or earth. Right then and there. We both know it. We've both said it.
Now go preach this to the nubs who keep bringing these things up like every mention of a person doing something means they think that person (whether themselves or another/m2kasaprimeexamplecough) is a messiah or some silly (laughable and superfluous) thing.
They sicken most people, both myself and I'm sure you, too.
The rest of your post, there were a couple points about exploring things and why it's worth it. As mentioned, and I'm sure you've noticed by now, everything from the Samus stuff to whatever else, was adding to what OTHERS were exploring. I had nothing to do with it personally. If I commented on it, and brought up a story of some form of context, then it was with that purpose. We were exploring. Whether it's one ZSS/M2 vs Ike, or one Samus vs Marth, they're only stories for context.
I provide a catalyst at some points in conversation, sure, a mirror, sure. That's as discussion goes. None of it (literally 0%) was me, and you KNOW that. ALL of the exploring was done by others.
I learned from it because I know what's happening when it happens, and they learned from it more than if I did the digging.
You can call it vague and shrouded, either way, it was how clarity of views (the projecting of ones perspective) was brought to light (reflecting on what one sees in that perspective).
All you had to do was read the posts to find this.
It was quite clearly about Ike, and neutral games, and everyone in this thread exploring what it might mean to have a good neutral game outside of DD Grabs and frame-data.
Whoever cares about who said what, should stop.
Who cares? Whoever you are, stop caring. Go read the points.
LOL
For those of you who would rather discuss Kirby needing a bigger Dash-Dance, or Bowser needing a flame-thrower, wrong thread.
I re-railed the derailed thread, and held up a mirror for people to see how they react.
I'll take credit for that stuff.
You're welcome, again. Suckers.
Funny thing.
It was neither me nor anybody IN THE CONVERSATIONS afterward, who were the ones to even start talking about FE characters and their weird paradox of neutral games vs tier placements...
I'd actually be interested in hearing it.
Like seriously...
What a paradox!
Marth neutral > Roy neutral > Ike neutral.
Roy = overrated and maybe bottom 5-10
Marth up somewhere...
and Ike... ?up? ?somewhere?
Ike apparently has a punish game that > them. Maybe some other qualities too (recovery, let's go with that)
That means the result of this is...
1) Ike's punish game + recovery outmatches Roy's neutral by enough that Ike isn't also a mention for bottom 1/4 of the cast. He's gotta have a strong punish + recovery, or Roy's punish is trash.
So
- Is Roy's punish and recovery THAT BAD that even with a better neutral than Ike he's STILL that bad?!
2) Ike's punish game is THAT MUCH BETTER than Marth's punish game...
(my goodness that must be a crazy good punish game or Marth's punish game must be absolute **** too)
... that Ike is somehow 'roughly' in the same tier-range with Marth, despite the neutral games being SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much worse?
Marth > Roy > Ike in neutral
Yet Roy is so bad, and Marth is so good, WHAT A SPREAD when they both have neutrals better than Ike and worse punishes!
Ike punishes look like Ivan Ooze stuff to Marth and Roy punishes. Wowy!
lol
Logic to some things and not to others, makes for terribly inaccurate tier lists.
Ike > them. Bring it!
For some random things of interest.
(This is all the irrelevant stuff that nobody should bother with if they don't want to waste their time)
This is really cute. I'm loving you so much.
Drinkingfood, you're hilarious and I love you.
All of this going on, yet somehow YOU (YOOOUUU) ended up backtracking multiple pages to write entire off-topic thread-derailing spam-infraction worthy post.
And it's about this 'person' you apparently think so much about that you know SO many things about them! Better google their life story or youtube their few vids of smash and know everything about them as a person. You just really want me to be a narcissist? You're making me one, FOR YOU. Of course I can play the part if you give me a pedestal every time you post. 2/2 100% me, you're doing pretty good so far. Give me a bigger pedestal and I'll be even more of one to you, you greedy little bugger. lol
"Obviously they must be doing things for themselves because they love posting ways of looking at things that are different than myself! Otherwise why would anybody ever listen to them! They have to post interesting things to be heard, so they're doing it with that purpose and that purpose alone! Discussion is good when they're around, but I can't follow it! They must have a problem!"
I just watched the Lego Movie so I'm in that zone, but this is totally Lord Business style.
Emmet (ehem) : You might see a mess...
Lord Business (u) : Yeah, and a bunch of weeeeird dorky stuff that RUINED my perfectly GOOD stuff!
Emmet (ehem) : Ok, what I see... are people, inspired by each other. And by YOU. People taking something you made, and making something new out of it.
never got a chance to respond to this from like 4 days ago but
yes, I do think 50% of people are just pretending to understand him, even if not consciously; rather they see the few accurate/verifiable things he says, and then extrapolate their own meanings of his confusing/nonsensical ramblings because they've assumed the burden of communication is on them for not understanding rather than on nausicaa for not properly communicating. And there's no reason to believe that the issue is just lack of communication ability, chances are he also makes as little sense in his head as he does in typing. The crazy sage character is a character trope, not a real life personality. In real life, the more crazily you communicate, the less valid your ideas are even if people understand what you're saying. Add to this that he has no verifiable claims for having "tutored" or "trained" top players and no evidence of his level of play to back up any of his statements. The more people put him on ignore the better. Not because he's a bad person or w/e, but reading his posts is seroiusly draining my sanity and it's hard to avoid when he makes himself the ****ing center of the thread constantly.
We're both just joking, I know, but I'm going with it, it's fun. Thanks.
To not be totally pointless of a joke.
It happens, and if you understand what it means to reflect on oneself (yourself, not others, and understand that everyone is ALWAYS REFLECTING ON THEMSELVES) then maybe being in a room where someone is talking about the mind stuff quite directly, is something you should try.
@Odds_ 's math prof teachers must have been terribly self-serving to not explain every detail! LOL
All people who talk must be nuts. It's only normal to chat about food and whatever else kids do these days. Everyone else has mental problems, am I getting this logic right?
A lot of the locals are nuts, we rub off on each other. Good mirrors to see ourselves with. You should* try it sometime. You'll find something really funny, you don't even have to 'Trust Me' on that one, you KNOW it already. You do it already.
Maybe just take a more direct look like many others in this very thread/community/game have, and it won't be so funny.
You thought of the thread like it was being taken over by a person, and in that moment, the thread was being taken over by that person FOR YOU. Glad it was me, I AM THE POWAAAH
All you. 100% you got to see your narcissistic quality come out, right with that.
Now, it's about you again, and how much you love another person (thanks) <3
Nausicaa's like one of those characters from a Shakespearean tragedy, where we're not sure if they've really gone mad or if it's a ruse and they're really ingeniously plotting against us. And just like Shakespearean tragedy, I've grown bored of reading it, but sadly there's no Sparknotes for Nausicaa.
Ask @Odds_ about that. I'm sure it's somewhere.
I think I remember a big rant while I was doing art-related things with someone in the room. It's a fast rant but I cover a lot of stuff vaguely and randomly. After that I went outside to the garden, so you might not hear me again. There's a good chunk though I'm sure.
I remember we had a good conversation once.
Was the initial posts I had in this forum, and you actually engaged in them because they were different and you understood the discussions.
That was when you cared, because you didn't know what was coming (the virus of Nasicake)
Now...
There is only Falconjuices left...
We lost another.
@Spralwers good last post elaborating on what we discussed with Ike/etc.
Probably the most solid I've seen in a long time when it comes to opening and closing points in the same breath to leave room for (the Odds math teachers will be famous for this one day!) contemplation for the reader to find their own clarity on the subjects.
tl;dr of the massive chunk I wrote regarding what Boiko
mentioned.
Besides that, I want to go back to a thing that I mentioned way back in the thread but I think was somewhat shot down/flooded over:
Instead of making tier lists (gasp? lolidk) we can discuss controversial characters on why or why not they're considered good (worded terribly hype).
So DK:
Are there any DK mains/self proclaimed knowledged people that can state DK's polarizing good/bad MU's? After this we can go through some to figure out what tools and gameplans that prevents or enables DK to go ape-****.
it is not removed, he just has to add an extra step (literally, just move forward a little bit) unless the character is big in which case its still an infinite.) Also when you said you played him, who won anyway and how many stocks were lost to the infinite?
Are you sure it's still there? It was just a money match but I won, basically all of his stocks were taken by the infinite though, but I don't remember the stock count per game.
Best of all against a lot of the cast cargo throw is essentially a kill throw, and if your in the unfortunate weight class/fall speed, he has a guaranteed fair at certain percents and you can either get hit by the spike or strong knockback attack. Dk isn't special, but he definitely isn't bad either.
Cargo jump up-throw dj f-air works on pretty much everyone at almost every relevant kill percent. Just a little bit narrower range than punch. Like I said, this character is stupid, he needs some serious love.
In a game like PM, if balance is to be achieved, EVERY CHARACTER should have a good number of both positive and negative matchups. This means that when PM goes Gold, every player needs to either learn to work around their character's poor matchups, or main a second character to cover them.
S tier characters have almost no poor matchups and circumvent the challenges every other character faces.
Nausicaa
Taoist sages would weep at the sight of that post. With that being said:
A fish trap is used in order to catch fish. Once the fish are caught the trap is forgotten. A rabbit trap is used in order to catch rabbits. Once the rabbit is caught the trap is forgotten. Words are used in order to capture thoughts. Once the thoughts are captured the words are forgotten. I'd be so at ease if I could find someone who had forgotten words so I could have a conversation with him!
No. What is "what he does" to you? Chain grab 50/50 DI mixups into 50/50 kill setups? Suicide grabs?
You can't reduce DK to a "worse version of X" because he plays differently than every other character. No one is a "worse version of X". Unless you mean that the "thing they do" is "win" in which case...
By your mentality we should all just play Fox. People play the character they play because they enjoy the style, and DK has a unique style.
Like there's no way you posted that without expecting this response lol.
Chevy
If they DI the Uthrow behind DK then there's only a very narrow range of % on a select few characters where you can Fair before they can act. For most people you have to Uair/Bair them if they DI behind.
Player -0
what do you mean by polarizing? I've heard people use it as like a one-sided matchups or a matchup where each character just 0-deaths each other back and forth and the winner is just whoever 0-deaths the most.
dirtboy345 Ttasteless gentleman
ICs infinite is only on the ledge and it's only an infinite on large characters. For most characters it's not an infinite although you can rack up a bunch of damage and lead into a spike.
I feel like a change people can agree to regarding DK is giving his recovery a small vertical boost and shave off a bit of landing lag cause having a hefty frame that can tank punishment but get screwed by an edgeguard at low percents with little effort is kinda counter-intuitive. Also since DK went through the 3.6 saga without a single change despite people (mostly) agreeing that he's lacking means the dev team isn't sure on what to do with him so why not change something simple and go from there?
I feel like a change people can agree to regarding DK is giving his recovery a small vertical boost and shave off a bit of landing lag cause having a hefty frame that can tank punishment but get screwed by an edgeguard at low percents with little effort is kinda counter-intuitive. Also since DK went through the 3.6 saga without a single change despite people (mostly) agreeing that he's lacking means the dev team isn't sure on what to do with him so why not change something simple and go from there?
Also edgeguarding him does not require little effort, his horizontal weave is actually quite good and you can only outright win by tossing disjoints at him which (or being Wario), surprise surprise, actually mostly belong to the 3 characters he likely has the best matchups against. Even the slightest miscalculation will get you caught in the move and eat a bunch of damage and then...
>shave off a bit of landing lag
>shave off a bit of landing lag
I definitely think you have no idea what you're talking about. DK's landing lag is like ~6 frames, my friend and I tested it the other day but don't remember the exact number. It's less than 7 for sure.
Also his vertical recovery doesn't really need to be much better because he doesn't fall very quickly and has extreme horizontal recovery, so 4/5 times you're recovering from a mid to high height and using the speed, hitboxes, and varying weave to make it back down and land and like instantly act.
Chevy
If they DI the Uthrow behind DK then there's only a very narrow range of % on a select few characters where you can Fair before they can act. For most people you have to Uair/Bair them if they DI behind.
In my experience you can drift far enough back on reaction to generally get the first hit regardless. It's obviously not all-encompassing, but it's a way bigger range than you're describing.
Also his vertical recovery doesn't really need to be much better because he doesn't fall very quickly and has extreme horizontal recovery, so 4/5 times you're recovering from a mid to high height and using the speed, hitboxes, and varying weave to make it back down and land and like instantly act.
DK has decent mix-up but it all falls out the window when someone realizes they can just meteor him. Also, he's a semi-fast faller, he doesn't really have too much time to **** around off-stage without side-b stalls, which don't really accomplish much.
In my experience you can drift far enough back on reaction to generally get the first hit regardless. It's obviously not all-encompassing, but it's a way bigger range than you're describing.
I'll definitely look into it more but I'm almost always able to avoid it by mashing jump if DK tries to Fair me after I get the correct DI, with many different characters.
Oh so DK plays like Sheik but worse? I'm looking for a character that does all these things at once, not a character who does one thing that DK does because that's not what you said.
If that's your prerogative, that's perfectly fine.
Are you talking about playing Fox or playing what character you want?
Chevy
You're right, he is a semi fast faller but "go out and meteor him" is both character and position dependent. The best way to do this is to have some sort of stomp, jump at him when he's recovering low, bait out his invincible startup and then Double Jump back towards the stage and nail the stomp without getting clipped. Or just be Wario.
In the right position, his recovery is quite easy to attack. People just tend to extrapolate this and say "it's really bad and a free edgeguard every time" without any other basis.
I dunno why I've spent so much time defending DK. I'm just tired of people always putting him last on the tier list when he has undervalued strengths and critically overvalued weaknesses.
nimigoha
When I mean his most polarizing MUs I mean ones he wins the hardest and the ones he loses the hardest. 2-3 characters would be great. Don't say Marth and Roy for the win hard if there are others though too. Factor 1 in, don't need both.
I think the word that's commonly used is volatile.
So breaking down DK:
What IS DK? As aforementioned, what distinguishes DK from Sheik?
- Large framed character. Carries a lot of syndromes of fatties (poor defensive options, etc)
- A fairly quick and long dash dance complete with fairly solid tools out of it (D-Tilt poke, STRONG grab, dash attack, doesn't have too much trouble if forced to shield with back towards opponent due to Bair)
- Can set up into edgeguarding position at mid-higher percents with B Throw. Also Cargo Throw.
DK has a more favorable SHFFL and dash length for aggressive movement. Trades off with less powerful tool that allows DK to force approach. With moves like F Tilt and D Tilt DK is able to threaten areas farther from him than Sheik while giving up minimal stage control. This gives him the ability to keep stage control he gains into a strong situation for him. The opponent also has to respect DK's space threatening options which allows DK to get into this position.
Obviously there are going to be some things that are wrong (point them out and correct them) and some exceptions. For the exceptions those should also be pointed out but why they're exceptions should be pointed out.
I don't understand it. I feel like not enough of you guys actually see DK play, and are more fiddling with him yourself, not knowing what to do and saying 'welp not really sure how this guy could be any good'.
DK is a bait and punish character. He has a superb DD with an enormous grab that can instantly turn into 50% or, on fastfallers, instant death.
He has a good run speed, he has 50/50 mixups on both combo and kill moves for most of the cast, he has a powerful multi-use Nair, a huge Bair, and a lightning fast Uair.
He can literally 0-death Spacies on reacting to their DI. He has a wicked OOS option. He has a long recovery that can deal loads of damage. He has an enormous and I mean enormous Down B that sets up into a free move at like any percent. He has an intangible move that kills everyone at 80%.
I know I sound like I'm making him out to be the best character but he undoubtedly has flaws. His recovery has little vertical movement, he can be quite susceptible to combos, and he can struggle with projectiles (or learn to powershield them like dedicated DK mains do).
Grouping him with Bowser is absolutely preposterous.
daily reminder that DK is not just susceptible to combos, he's probably the easiest character in the game to punish/combo with a mediocre recovery
yes he can punish spacies/some others 0-to-death
they can all do it back
almost every single character
and most of them either have BETTER movement/tools for bait and punish, or projectiles that stuff his fat ass.
Player -0
My friend says his least favourite characters to fight as DK are Ness and Links (if they projectile camp).
Also I'd like to know what you mean by lack of defensive options. As I said earlier, he has an intangible frame 3 OOS. He has ground and air speed as well. Fatties usually have poor defensive options when they lack one/multiples of these (DDD notably lacks all three, Bowser has relatively little speed, Ganon lacks speed, Charizard lacks air speed). He admittedly doesn't really have a gtfo move in the air if you're underneath him, as the frame 2 intangible hitboxes don't cover below.
DrinkingFood
Bowser has a worse recovery. It has less disjoint and no intangibility and slightly better vertical range but much worse horizontal range. I'd say he's easier to combo and easier to get into a combo.
DK's matchups are volatile (thanks Player -0, that was definitely the word I was looking for). It's trading 0-deaths, for the most part. Except ICs who you can't do grab combos on and you just have to Nair/Dtilt/Bair your way to a win.
Projectiles aren't as huge a deal as people say. His tilts beat loads of projectiles, and he can powershield others. Seriously, power shielding with just like a 70% success rate completely changes the matchup against projectile based characters.
Like I'm not sure what you mean by saying projectiles stuff him. Do they not stuff other characters like Marth or Ike or anyone without a reflector?
Character not having a projectile does not automatically mean they autolose to projectiles. Every character has a way to deal with projectiles, and most character only have shield, dodge, or clank.
With regard to bait/punish, DK has the 11th best run speed in the game, and then couple that with his long Dash Attack. He's not exactly lacking in the movement department
Also as a response to both of you, he has really really good tech rolls. There's a lot of ground covered with most of the duration at either end. He freezes in place and then zips in a direction with like no telegraphing. In response to DF talking 0-deaths and Player talking defensive options if you count this.
Player -0 DrinkingFood
Bowser has a worse recovery. It has less disjoint and no intangibility and slightly better vertical range but much worse horizontal range. I'd say he's easier to combo and easier to get into a combo.
DK's matchups are volatile (thanks Player -0, that was definitely the word I was looking for). It's trading 0-deaths, for the most part. Except ICs who you can't do grab combos on and you just have to Nair/Dtilt/Bair your way to a win.
Projectiles aren't as huge a deal as people say. His tilts beat loads of projectiles, and he can powershield others. Seriously, power shielding with just like a 70% success rate completely changes the matchup against projectile based characters.
Like I'm not sure what you mean by saying projectiles stuff him. Do they not stuff other characters like Marth or Ike or anyone without a reflector?
Character not having a projectile does not automatically mean they autolose to projectiles. Every character has a way to deal with projectiles, and most character only have shield, dodge, or clank.
didn't say bowser's recovery wasn't worse But bowser also happens to have an armored frame 5 nair which can save him from certain staggered juggle situations, DK has no such tool for battling opponents below him. He's also slightly floatier. I don't consider bowser easier to punish/more susceptible to punishes.
Anyway, most characters with good projectile tools have ways to prevent powershielding from being an issue. Falco can shoot lasers high, sheik just has to throw an even number of needles or be far away, or better yet just not throw them because they're took quick to PS up close, Link/tink can angle rang and their bombs net nothing off PS since they continue downward, Ivy can SH RL and approach under it, etc etc. Even if you can powershield, the opponent generally forces you to commit. They can either eat away at stage space slowly or even get a punish, and if you're a large character or just not a fast character, they're forcing you to make the read to just avoid losing the stage.
Yeah I fully admit that characters with projectiles can fiddle with powershielding.
But I don't think it's specific to DK. Getting hit with a projectile is something that's going to happen to you no matter what character you are, and your opponent is going to convert off of that if they're smart.
What you've said is 'projectiles are good' and they are. Being DK or not being DK doesn't factor in here. Unless...
DK actually has more to deal with projectiles than a whole bunch of characters because of his Dash Attack. Spacies have shines, Mario and Ganon have capes, Mewtwo Zelda Pit and ROB have reflectors, and DK and Bowser have approaching armour. Sure, it's light armour, but it's better than nothing, as everyone else has to powershield or clank, or absorb as Ness/Lucas/GW or have spacing dependent pseudoshields as a Link.
So. DK, with a tied for 11 Run speed and a top 11 way of dealing with projectiles, actually isn't all that affected by "projectiles that stuff his fat ***."
As far as recovery goes, here's something I don't think people may realize.
The times where he gets hit out, where it's an 'easy edgeguard'?
Those are times when he used just his Up B from like almost off screen.
So I think people are thinking about the intercept and not where he started the recovery from, because he starts it from miles away.
My point is that any character recovering using only their Up B (and any reusable moves like as many Side B as you want) from those points is either going to have a tough time getting on safely or has a godlike recovery (Pikachu, Luigi, Falcon, Snake, ICs, Squirtle, Peach, MK, ROB will be in here either way, depending on the situation), or just not going to make it back at all (everyone else).
So when you see a DK get edgeguarded, think about where they recovered from and just how many characters would have actually been able to make it back. Don't let it automatically tally in your mind as "DK EZ Edgeguard".
Also edgeguarding him does not require little effort, his horizontal weave is actually quite good and you can only outright win by tossing disjoints at him which (or being Wario), surprise surprise, actually mostly belong to the 3 characters he likely has the best matchups against. Even the slightest miscalculation will get you caught in the move and eat a bunch of damage and then...
>shave off a bit of landing lag
>shave off a bit of landing lag
I definitely think you have no idea what you're talking about. DK's landing lag is like ~6 frames, my friend and I tested it the other day but don't remember the exact number. It's less than 7 for sure.
Also his vertical recovery doesn't really need to be much better because he doesn't fall very quickly and has extreme horizontal recovery, so 4/5 times you're recovering from a mid to high height and using the speed, hitboxes, and varying weave to make it back down and land and like instantly act.
Except it does make it predictable having to recover basically on par or above the stage height. Yeah, the landing lag is minimal, but it just takes a little experience to edge guard DK. Weaving isn't the best option either when you're far away from the edge too. His recovery isn't Roy levels of bad, but it's not one of the strongest for sure.
Also, he can be camped kinda easy. Well, to put it into perspective, I played Tink vs DK on YI against someone about my level and he couldn't kill me at all. But granted, Tink does have a lot of zoning options to stuff DK's approaches.
Except it does make it predictable having to recover basically on par or above the stage height. Yeah, the landing lag is minimal, but it just takes a little experience to edge guard DK. Weaving isn't the best option either when you're far away from the edge too. His recovery isn't Roy levels of bad, but it's not one of the strongest for sure.
Also, he can be camped kinda easy. Well, to put it into perspective, I played Tink vs DK on YI against someone about my level and he couldn't kill me at all. But granted, Tink does have a lot of zoning options to stuff DK's approaches.
Look at my post before yours for my thoughts on his recovery. Him being in a position where his recovery is just getting him back to the stage is already better than a lot of the characters.
Not saying is recovery is great. Just trying to point out to people that it's not as straightforward to beat as everyone thinks.
Look at my post before yours for my thoughts on his recovery. Him being in a position where his recovery is just getting him back to the stage is already better than a lot of the characters.
Not saying is recovery is great. Just trying to point out to people that it's not as straightforward to beat as everyone thinks.
I think most of DK's matchups are near even. If not all of them lmao. I think solo-DK could win a national. I don't see any matchups that are unrealistic for him to win. Especially with the current stage banning system. A lot of his "bad" matchups have a few select stages where he either wins or it is even. Thus, if DK wins game 1 on an even stage, winning game 3 is cake most of the time. DK's very polarizing on the stages he's good at or bad at in most matchups like how he ****s on fox on FD but gets **** on by fox on stadium for example, and smashville is about even. If DK wins game 1 you're in for a rough ride due to his polarizing importance of having the CP advantage. People think I'm insane for saying solo-maining DK is viable, but I got fourth going ALL DK at one of the biggest and most stacked PM nationals EVER (flex zone) and I wasn't even that good back then so that says quite a bit about DK as a character in my opinion. My fundamentals were nowhere near "4th best" at that tournament so the sky's the limit if you consider how much room for improvement I had fundamentally at the time. If I could hand my punish game and DK experience to M2K, I'm pretty sure he'd win any national going all DK lol. Just like if he could hand me his fundamentals, I could win any national.
Argument against the few successful DK mains out there: "People just don't know the DK matchup. That's why they won"
Counterargument: The DK matchup is just watch out for grabs, bairs, up airs, and up b oos. Nothing else he has is really out of the ordinary. People saying they "don't know the matchup" is just johns or BS for the most part. Everyone knows the DK matchup after playing one or 2 games v.s. a solid DK, unless they are stubborn and don't adapt. He's one of the simplest characters in the game...if you're getting grabbed by DK you're just getting straight up outplayed because everyone knows not to get grabbed by DK.
Oh btw, I've stated this before but I figured I'd say it again. I was a solo-DK main but I wasn't "pessimistic" about the character by any means. I've only been playing him significantly less recently because of being bored of him. Due to his simplicity/repetetiveness, I found it pretty boring to solo-main DK for a long period of time. However, when I'm playin for dat W, DK's my main man. Who needs fun when you're makin da bills right?
Edit: BTW, yes you can count on me to show up whenever someone mentions the word "DK" to drop the truth smackdown. I have this sixth sense to know when and where people are talkin crap about my boy
Searing_Sorrow
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a guaranteed Fair. His C-Uthrow/Fthrow 50/50 mixup is fantastic though. They DI an Fthrow backwards and you get a free Fair, they DI the Uthrow forwards and you get a free Fair/Uair. And if they properly DI the Uthrow behind, a lot of the time you can still get a Bair.
Soft Serve
Player -0
@Life
nimigoha
@Spralwers
AuraMaudeGone
didds
@PlateProp
dirtboy345
@eideeiit @InfinityCollision @ThegreatVaporeon1 @PMS | steelguttey
Narelex
Boiko
Avro-Arrow
etc
Nausicaa I remember some mention of you, a stream and some quality talk about smash like 5 months ago. Did this ever happen or not?
Chevy
If they DI the Uthrow behind DK then there's only a very narrow range of % on a select few characters where you can Fair before they can act. For most people you have to Uair/Bair them if they DI behind.
DrinkingFood
Bowser has a worse recovery. It has less disjoint and no intangibility and slightly better vertical range but much worse horizontal range. I'd say he's easier to combo and easier to get into a combo.
