Tier List Speculation

[InfinityCollision]

How significant are those angles? All I could seem to do when checking it out is control how far he traveled in his arc before falling, and even that had fairly limited control.

 

[Rᴏb]

Olimar's upb doesn't have angles, he drifts.

His recovery is not great, but that's okay considering his other strengths. I'd be really disappointed to see it changed in any way.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Olimar's upb doesn't have angles, he drifts.

His recovery is not great, but that's okay considering his other strengths. I'd be really disappointed to see it changed in any way.

yeah to be honest I love his recovery, one of the best decisions pmdt has made since ganon float

 

[MrLul]

I beat Sartron and MrLz twice in a doubles match with StereoKiDD. We lost the set tho ;_;

GnW is fine :^) just SDI to the left

no we 6-0 u

 

[Nausicaa]

Nausicaa Taoist sages would weep at the sight of that post. With that being said:

On topic: I don't think DK's necessarily bad, just other characters do what he does so much better. Why pick him with that in mind?

Taoist sages apparently could use a new thing to do other than think. Maybe observing could be a good start.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz3TO4KuW3g#t=30m46s

Half jkz half serious.
It was also probably one of the best posts in this entire thread. Doesn't belong here though, too... indirect for smash. I'm sure we all agree with that. lol

PS: You into Taoism? My mom is getting into that, my bro and I haven't but we chill with the folks enough to get the basics of it.

I think most of DK's matchups are near even. If not all of them lmao. I think solo-DK could win a national. I don't see any matchups that are unrealistic for him to win.

Argument against the few successful DK mains out there: "People just don't know the DK matchup. That's why they won"
Counterargument: The DK matchup is just watch out for grabs, bairs, up airs, and up b oos. Nothing else he has is really out of the ordinary. People saying they "don't know the matchup" is just johns or BS for the most part. Everyone knows the DK matchup after playing one or 2 games v.s. a solid DK, unless they are stubborn and don't adapt. He's one of the simplest characters in the game...if you're getting grabbed by DK you're just getting straight up outplayed because everyone knows not to get grabbed by DK.

Just gonna quote this post because it's good and sums stuff up.

DK will always be better than a lot of the cast in a 'flat tier list' type of thing simply because of the stream-line that he is.
Even in 3.02 with things like Rang, DK was still better than characters like Link.

Everyone knows him by a string of Dashes into Grabs into Throws into Punches.
Essentially, this is broken down into being able to be really safe with speed from afar, having a single option from that safety that converts to literally 100% of everything he wants to do in the game, and while he's at this safe distance, he even has something great to do IN THE STREAM-LINE in the form of charging the bonus finisher.

Coming into PM, someone like Link became better at the "General zoning game"
If you were to describe DK, the "General game" is non-existent. Everything "better" he has from pokes to a more solid N-Air, B-Air, and Down-B all becoming usable, are extremely overshadowed by his Steam-Line of Dash-Grab Cargo-Throw U-Air/F-Air Punch.

He's basically a Captain Falcon with a harder stream-line and less diversity and flare. Of course he's going to be good. If Snake can be a stream-line flow-chart of 5 moves and be good, and CF can be good with that same idea, and whoever else is too...
OF COURSE DK and Puff and Oli others (there are a couple leaning this way too, but DK is probably the simplest of the lot and always has been) are good too.
Sure, they might not be overbearing and stupid, they'd be nerfed immediately (Sonic Down-B and Wario Shoulder-Crouch stream-lining) but that is literally the ENTIRE CHARACTER.
When the ENTIRE CHARACTER is keep up with Project M's crazy as balls cast, that stream-line is way too strong, and needs serious work.

This is the off-topic part, but I'd still advocate reworking DK, CF, and Snake, almost entirely. That's personally though, some peeps like those characters as they are. I'm sure it can be done without ruining them, and I'm hoping for it.

Oli's Up-B is like Roy's but without the flare (get it flareblade hurrhurrrrr)

 

[NWRL]

no we 6-0 u

That was in grands bruh.

WF we took it to last game

 

[MrLul]

That was in grands bruh.

WF we took it to last game

no you didn't

 

[robosteven]

Olimar's upb doesn't have angles, he drifts.

His recovery is not great, but that's okay considering his other strengths. I'd be really disappointed to see it changed in any way.

I want to be able to gimp and edgeguard people like I used to in 3.5, and it had nothing to do with recovery type. It was vertical distance.

The ability to rocket straight upwards at the same distance he could get with four Pikmin in 3.5 is the only buff I'd like to see him get to his up-b. Everything else about it would be fine if he had this.

 

[GrandpaDukes]

Actually after some thought i take back everything I said. DK is actually the worst in the game

 

[frankxthexbunny]

jesus talk about a step backwards.

 

[mimgrim]

jesus talk about a step backwards.

I seriously doubt it is that.

That Pidgeot is way too suspicious.

 

[robosteven]

GrandpaDukes aka Shane aka POOB aka the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince has spoken.

 

[Life]

Man, it's quiet in here.

I've been thinking about picking up Lucas, and I was curious what you people think about him. Does he have rough matchups besides Fox? What's his general gameplan?

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Man, it's quiet in here.

I've been thinking about picking up Lucas, and I was curious what you people think about him. Does he have rough matchups besides Fox? What's his general gameplan?

Matchup NUMBERS ARE MEANINGLESS, AND WILL ALWAYS BE MEANINGLESS

Lucas is good. figure out how to win neutral and then punish like a mother

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Lucas' MU spread is pretty flat from what I hear.

 

[Life]

Matchup NUMBERS ARE MEANINGLESS, AND WILL ALWAYS BE MEANINGLESS

Lucas is good. figure out how to win neutral and then punish like a mother

Matchup numbers are meaningless. Matchup-describing adjectives are somewhat better. Ten-page writeups on the matchup are superior to either.

Yeah I'm looking into his stuff and he's pretty scary. Gotta work on that hard punish thing though. I only just started really working at it, I'm hardly a gfycat factory right now.

 

[Droß]

Matchup numbers are meaningless. Matchup-describing adjectives are somewhat better. Ten-page writeups on the matchup are superior to either.

Yeah I'm looking into his stuff and he's pretty scary. Gotta work on that hard punish thing though. I only just started really working at it, I'm hardly a gfycat factory right now.

I see what you did there! :D

What's the frame data on Lucas's shine jump cancel? He seems like he has a plethora of movement mix-ups both in neutral and during recovery wiith B-reverse, reverse shine, wavebounce, and DJC, and if they occur quickly enough, he could have a really potent neutral through mindgames, spacing adjustment, and his other good movement options.

 

[Life]

Lucas can jump cancel at any point during the endlag of magnet (i.e. letting go of B); although he has to wait for hitlag to end if he's hitting something with it. Wavedash should take fifteen frames if I'm remembering the formula for that right (4 frame jumpsquat+1 airborne+10 airdodge lag).

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Basically, if you go minimum (since you can hold and get a repeating hitbox), linking hit comes frame 5, combo hit frame 7, and jump cancel able frame 8 (i.e. frame after hitlag). And yes, Lucas' wave dash take 15 frames to complete. Magnet, DJC stuff, wd stuff, pkf, and DD are lucas' neutral tools.

The biggest problem I see Lucas having is the requirement for tight spacing to do anything. His best launcher, up tilt, suffers from this (meaning he needs to use more magnet), he doesn't have access to grab as much and his throws aren't very good. He also may need to rely on dash attack (to fill the role of a launcher, like Peach does) too much. This is why the Fox mu is seen the way it is. No reliable launcher? Bad mu vs the supposed "easy to combo" character (where that attribute is what makes him fair).

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser has no mix ups, it is just are you gonna recovery high or low. Grab edge or land on stage. It is not balanced compared to the rest of the cast, but i think its balanced in the sense of not being overpowered.

Olimar's up B has no angle change, you just cancel its movement with your own air mobility (still not really good) and with pluck nerf its really punishable and the lag on landing is tremendous unless edge cancelled. All i would really like is it to be quicker or a kill move. Maybe make it easier to sweet spot maybe. But that is my only gripe with olimar
olimar could easily be A tier with some changes... bowser can probably only be B tier no matter what just because of combo/camp/grab/anything stupid fodder.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Man, it's quiet in here.

I've been thinking about picking up Lucas, and I was curious what you people think about him. Does he have rough matchups besides Fox? What's his general gameplan?

Who dosn't have a rough matchup against Fox?
Besides, I don't main Lucas much... so I can't say alot of thing

 

[didds]

Who dosn't have a rough matchup against Fox?
Besides, I don't main Lucas much... so I can't say alot of thing

Pika does pretty well against fox, has just as many stressful things for fox to deal with as the other way around. Probably has some of the easiest and most reliable punishes as well

 

[Mc.Rad]

Pika does pretty well against fox, has just as much stressful things for fox to deal

#RIPSpacies

 

[didds]

#RIPSpacies

Lol, I hit that post button on accident before I was finished, definitely made my comment look extra dumb

 

[zen-bz-]

(meaning he needs to use more magnet)

IVE GOT A FEVAH
AND THE ONLY PRESCRIPTION
IS MORE MAGNET

imnotsorry

 

[Gooch]

Man, it's quiet in here.

I've been thinking about picking up Lucas, and I was curious what you people think about him. Does he have rough matchups besides Fox? What's his general gameplan?

Lucas is still really ****ing good. People just need to play him better. He still has the capability to be top 15 maybe top 10. Great dash dance, Fantastic waveland, fast AND high first jump, DJC, Shine, Decent disjoints, mobile projectile. The only thing holding him down from all that is his recovery, which honestly is kinda justified by his onstage game and isnt exactly the WORST recovery, its just not on par with the rest of his positive qualities.

The Lucas mains in my region say Lucas dislikes marth and fox, and ****s up heavies. I dont play him, but I can see that being true.

Just gotta win neutral, and punish the **** out of them. Lucas has good mobility and a good projectile so pick your poison.

 

[Kipcom]

The only thing holding him down from all that is his recovery

And his grab. His grab's not good. I also wish he had more ways of dealing with CC other than with a dumb dair combo, but I guess you take what you can get. Feels lame, but I guess you fight lame with lame to get the W.

With that being said, Lucas is still one the best characters in the game. I'd call him the strongest high tier, or maybe the weakest top tier. Like you said, we just suck. :^)

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Anyone notice bowser has some of the best things in the game (ledge dash, oos options, heaviest, hits hardest)

Yet hes Bottom tier? I just figured i would point that weird thing out.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

So here's this, it's definitely not perfect and I am still thinking about how to improve it, but I'll throw it out there so you guys can point out the blatantly stupid things I've missed here.

Also in the pic I'm sure I have Lucas way to low, I would put him somewhere around Ike probably.

To explain, A+ Has can win every matchup, maybe loses one or two matchups just barely.
A is very strong, no unwinnable matchups and many positive matchups
A- Is very much viable but has a few counters.
B Tier needs buffs
B- Tier sukz

 

[tasteless gentleman]

So here's this, it's definitely not perfect and I am still thinking about how to improve it, but I'll throw it out there so you guys can point out the blatantly stupid things I've missed here.

Also in the pic I'm sure I have Lucas way to low, I would put him somewhere around Ike probably.

To explain, A+ Has can win every matchup, maybe loses one or two matchups just barely.
A is very strong, no unwinnable matchups and many positive matchups
A- Is very much viable but has a few counters.
B Tier needs buffs
B- Tier sukz

Ness is not the same tier as bowser, other than that... perspective changes but mostly agreeable

 

[frankxthexbunny]

So here's this, it's definitely not perfect and I am still thinking about how to improve it, but I'll throw it out there so you guys can point out the blatantly stupid things I've missed here.

Also in the pic I'm sure I have Lucas way to low, I would put him somewhere around Ike probably.

To explain, A+ Has can win every matchup, maybe loses one or two matchups just barely.
A is very strong, no unwinnable matchups and many positive matchups
A- Is very much viable but has a few counters.
B Tier needs buffs
B- Tier sukz

Ehh I like very little of what I see but what's new

 

[Nausicaa]

If Lucas had a pre-3.5 Yoshi Grab, or a 2.1 Link/TL Grab...
OOOOOOHHHHHBOOOOYYYY

 

[didds]

If Lucas had a pre-3.5 Yoshi Grab, or a 2.1 Link/TL Grab...
OOOOOOHHHHHBOOOOYYYY

Or if yoshi did

 

[Kipcom]

If Lucas had a pre-3.5 Yoshi Grab, or a 2.1 Link/TL Grab...
OOOOOOHHHHHBOOOOYYYY

I need this in my life

 

[Tomaster]

Tier lists hardly represent the characters' viability. I see a lot of tier lists here that i mostly agree with, most of them put fox at the top, which is probably where he should be. However, Fox being the best does not mean he's the most viable as it stands now. With the current metagame development you're more likely to get results with ROB, Lucario, G&W, Diddy, MK, Ike, etc. than you are with fox, just because your opponent is much more likely to have matchup knowledge vs fox than vs the characters i mentioned above. Just throwing this out there...

 

[Bazkip]

Fox being the best does not mean he's the most viable.

Uh
That's exactly what it means

 

[Rᴏb]

Tier lists hardly represent the characters' viability. I see a lot of tier lists here that i mostly agree with, most of them put fox at the top, which is probably where he should be. However, Fox being the best does not mean he's the most viable. With the current metagame development you're more likely to get results with ROB, Lucario, G&W, Diddy, MK, Ike, etc. than you are with fox, just because your opponent is much more likely to have matchup knowledge vs fox than vs the characters i mentioned above. Just throwing this out there...

Tier lists aren't necessarily bound to conveying the viability of characters within the current metagame, they could easily be speculative in nature in regards to how character's kits will hold up when the metagame becomes more developed.

You might be right about lack of matchup knowledge allowing certain characters to prevail in the meantime (G&W is a great example of this), but that certainly doesn't support the idea of characters' long-term viability, not that you said it did, but regardless that's what I feel like most people think about when they make tier lists.

 

[MLGF]

Tier lists in this game is whether or not you have to duel main

It's a simple concept, do you think your main could win a national alone? If yes, congrats he's top tier. If not, said character is not high tier

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Tier lists in this game is whether or not you have to duel main

It's a simple concept, do you think your main could win a national line? If yes, congrats he's top tier. If not, said character is not high tier

give it time eventually everyone's going to dual main.

 

[MTL Kyle]

give it time eventually everyone's going to dual main.

It's taking too long though.
PMDT didn't decide yet if they want every character to be viable as solo main or they wanna keep some cancerous design in detriment of having polarized matchups.

Tier lists in this game is whether or not you have to duel main

What a hard concept to grasp, am I right ?
"I wanna play a character that has polarized matchups and mechanics and only have 5-5s XD"
LmAoOoOoOoOo
No. You wanna get carried by dumb **** and poor decision making.


Oh wow, '14ers.