Tier List Speculation

[MTL Kyle]

But isn't that Melee Fox?

How much Melee do you even play lol
People talk about Fox like he is in a state where you can perfectly flowchart the game a la Phoenix/Wesker/Haggar in MvC3.
People talk like having a gun automatically gives you godlike capabilities in neutral.

And yet, in this game, there are characters with unDIable combos with really ambiguous mix ups in between, all with low execution.
I see less commotion about dumb **** like Tink Dthrow > follow up, DK things or Ganon things than things about Fox.

if youre gonna say that fox has bad matchups, then list the matchups fox loses. until then dont claim things without backing them up, please. it gets us nowhere

ROB, Samus, Ike, Snake, Wario.
And sincerely, the rest is a debatable 5-5 if the Fox plays the matchup correctly and has knowledge, otherwise it's just a one-touch-death matchup lmao.

_______________________________________________


I seriously should start a survey asking how often people play Melee here or how much experience they have with the game. Suddenly, they play someone that has like... 10 years in the game playing Fox with good techskill and they feel entitled to win because PM is their main game, when their DI is ****, they don't know how to SDI **** and they ****ing forward smash the ledge every time instead of holding it or edgeguarding.

Yes, Fox is a good character. Yes, there are ways to tone him down without changing the core things about the character (things that the PMDT probably never tried, even though they are slowly fanservicing the community to kill Fox in a slow death). Yes, he is OU in Melee and has a lot of useful moves.

But can you please not participate in this discussion if your first Smash game was PM ? Thanks

 

[Narelex]

But can you please not participate in this discussion if your first Smash game was PM ? Thanks

This is the type of mindset that does not belong here Kyle.

None of the characters you listed beat Fox. The only thing they share is their ability to punish him hard if they get the chance. We've had the Neutral > Punish discussion a couple times. Anyone can say "Fox loses X MU's" until someone is de-constructing the "why" the arguments will never hold water.

 

[steelguttey]

being overly aggressive to everyone while theyre all ignoring you - a biography

 

[MTL Kyle]

being overly aggressive to everyone while theyre all ignoring you - a biography

Ouch, sick burn.

This is the type of mindset that does not belong here Kyle.

Making this more of a hugbox is not going to make the game better.
The same experience you are asking me to have to DI Meta Knight **** or ROB **** I want you to have with Fox. Except Fox has been available for 14 years for us to **** around with. At this point, if you don't know what to do to balance the character, erase him from the game and start from the scratch ? idk LOL.

 

[NWRL]

Bad Fox Matchups:

ROB, Samus, Ike, Snake, Wario.
And sincerely, the rest is a debatable 5-5 if the Fox plays the matchup correctly and has knowledge, otherwise it's just a one-touch-death matchup lmao.

Just because Ike has a chaingrab on Fox doesn't mean Fox loses the matchup lol

Fox can DD camp or laser camp to force Ike to commit to an approach and punish, and Fox punishes Ike hard due to his weight, Fox's frame data is a magnitude better than Ike's. Ike punishes Fox pretty damn hard himself, but most of the punishes get started off of a grab which is pretty hard to get if the Fox knows what he's doing.

I'd say it's mostly even due to punish game, with Fox having a noticeably better neutral.

I'd like to hear your reasoning on ROB, Snake, and Wario as well.

 

[_Chrome]

Ouch, sick burn.



Making this more of a hugbox is not going to make the game better.
The same experience you are asking me to have to DI Meta Knight **** or ROB **** I want you to have with Fox. Except Fox has been available for 14 years for us to **** around with. At this point, if you don't know what to do to balance the character, erase him from the game and start from the scratch ? idk LOL.

You sound a little salty about MK and ROB. This is a decent place to get started on learning those match-ups, pal.

EDIT: I thought it was kinda common knowledge Snake lost to Fox and friends... ie he has a very hard time winning neutral and he primarily kills off of the top, which is kinda out of the question against them.

 

[Narelex]

Just because Ike has a chaingrab on Fox doesn't mean Fox loses the matchup lol

Fox can DD camp or laser camp to force Ike to commit to an approach and punish, and Fox punishes Ike hard due to his weight, Fox's frame data is a magnitude better than Ike's. Ike punishes Fox pretty damn hard himself, but most of the punishes get started off of a grab which is pretty hard to get if the Fox knows what he's doing.

I'd say it's mostly even due to punish game, with Fox having a noticeably better neutral.

I'd like to hear your reasoning on ROB, Snake, and Wario as well.

I know for a fact that Wario has a bad MU against spacies. Strongbad picked up his MK to help him in certain mu's with spacies being listed squarely as chief offenders.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Fox's frame data is a magnitude better than Ike's.

LMAOOOO

And that's why you shouldn't say anything if PM is your first Smash game.

You sound a little salty about MK and ROB.

I said MK because Narelex had the badge of a MK main.
I said ROB because I'm definitely salty about him LMAO

 

[MTL Kyle]

EDIT: I thought it was kinda common knowledge Snake lost to Fox and friends

I thought it was a common knowledge that Fox is not actually the best character in this game.
But I guess I'm at the wrong side of the circle jerk.

 

[Boiko]

ROB, Samus, Ike, Snake, Wario.
And sincerely, the rest is a debatable 5-5 if the Fox plays the matchup correctly and has knowledge, otherwise it's just a one-touch-death matchup lmao.

Match up figures assume that the person playing the match up has a full understanding of what each side is capable of. Otherwise, you're not playing the match up. When people talk about Fox being "braindead," a term that I don't like to use personally, what they're really saying is that he has a one size fits all strategy. He has the best combination of tools in the game that can be used to an effective degree in every match up in the game. Some characters, two that you mentioned, ROB and Samus, have tools that are capable of dealing with his kit. His "braindead" strategy crumbles against these characters and he's forced to play more intelligently. For example, instead of using nair>shine against Samus, you use drill>shine. Otherwise you're taking a CC dtilt/dsmash and being put off stage.

However, Fox does have tools that work in these match ups. It's just a matter of player inexperience. Dealing with a circle camping Fox as Samus is extremely difficult. Hardly any mid level Fox is going to do that though.

I seriously should start a survey asking how often people play Melee here or how much experience they have with the game.

You don't need to have melee experience to be good against Fox. I can list a handful of PM specific Fox players with solid results and players who haven't even touched melee who beat them. For what it's worth, I have over ten years of melee experience. That doesn't make the Fox match up any less difficult. Just because my character can combo Fox to death off of a grab, it doesn't mean that Fox is suddenly easy to beat. There is a lot more to it than that.

 

[MTL Kyle]

nstead of using nair>shine against Samus, you use drill>shine. Otherwise you're taking a CC dtilt/dsmash and being put off stage..

People not playing/watching enough Melee to see that high level Samus/Peaches have been SDIing those drills to get D-Smash punishes, and yet, still thinking Fox has a one-size fit all

Just because my character can combo Fox to death off of a grab, it doesn't mean that Fox is suddenly easy to beat. There is a lot more to it than that.

True! You still have to beat a character that has pretty good tools to have a solid neutral game (good walkspeed, jump height, frame 2~3? jumpsquat, laz0rs).
And yet, it doesn't matter having all those tools because neutral game is not constituted of what the character is made of. It's constituted of what a player knows. It's a PvP interaction. How long till people stop complaining and learn stuff ?

Me, for once, I love playing Peach vs Fox in PM. I feel they toned down Fox in the exact notch where I feel powerful enough to do my punishes and play a weighted neutral game without feeling like I'm at the edge of my seat if I don't act soon or if I don't get X thing.
And yet people are still complaining lmao

 

[Boiko]

People not playing/watching enough Melee to see that high level Samus/Peaches have been SDIing those drills to get D-Smash punishes, and yet, still thinking Fox has a one-size fit all

I mean, you don't have to tell me the counter play. That's why I specified mid level. To be fair, there is always going to be an answer for everything in smash. You know how it is, if this do this, if that do that, etc.

 

[NWRL]

LMAOOOO

And that's why you shouldn't say anything if PM is your first Smash game.



I said MK because Narelex had the badge of a MK main.
I said ROB because I'm definitely salty about him LMAO

LMAOOOOO that's why you shouldn't talk balance if you can't back up your arguments.

Let's go over some frame data bud

Run Speed:

Fox: 2.2
Ike: 1.55

So ground speed definitely goes to Fox here, that makes him way more maneuverable and able to position pretty safely.

In before Quickdraw, that has 10+ frames startup and can be reacted to, and then you have to factor in the 3 frames of QD that you have to commit to before jumping, add in Ike's jumpsquat, plus whatever option you're going to do out of QD

Jump Squat

Ike: 5 frames
Fox: 3 frames

Fox can hit the air quicker, and since he's faster on the ground, his momentum allows him to jump in Ike's face super quick.

Ike's most used aerial is nair, which becomes active at frame 7, but doesn't cover space in front him directly until around frame 11 or so, I need to go test and get the actual data.

Meanwhile Fox's nair has 3 frames startup, 28 active frames and is attached to a character that is far more mobile, has a transcendent projectile, oh and did I mention that he has a move that basically prevents you from CCing if used properly?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Oh man platform camping Samus is noooot fun for the Samus... but incredibly hilarious for everyone else. xD

 

[Zigludo]

I thought it was a common knowledge that Fox is not actually the best character in this game.
But I guess I'm at the wrong side of the circle jerk.

true that lol. the sad thing is that it happens in every patch, you would have gotten laughed out of this thread in 3.5 if you had said that GnW was OP

Just because Ike has a chaingrab on Fox doesn't mean Fox loses the matchup lol

Fox can DD camp or laser camp to force Ike to commit to an approach and punish

you say that even though Ike's qd> nair / qd>grab / qd>wd>jab stuff is one of the few options in either Melee or PM capable of directly punishing Fox's dd and retreating laser lol. up there with Squirtle's weird RAR thing and Falcon's bull**** dash jump nair

I don't like the whole "Fox literally has a big dashdance therefore he has the tools necessary to deal with everything in the whole game" routine, it's a reductive attitude that unfortunately gets pushed really hard by certain prominent posters in this thread

 

[_Chrome]

My face when someone says Fox isn't the best character:

idk I just thought it was funny.

 

[MTL Kyle]

I mean, you don't have to tell me the counter play. That's why I specified mid level. To be fair, there is always going to be an answer for everything in smash. You know how it is, if this do this, if that do that, etc.

I don't know if we should use Mid-level as a reference to anything. It's the perfect ~grey zone~ of whether something is broken or not really.

That is the cool thing of Smash and other well designed games.
It doesn't matter what option you pick, there will still be opportunity to have outplays and what not. It's also an insanely complicated canvas to draw in, as it takes time to understand why certain things should or should not be changed.

I just don't feel enough people rationalize how certain things are supposed to work. As in, what certain characters give away in order to get something else, or why characters with the same concept have completely different outcomes with their punishes (and why a generalized way of thinking 90% is dumb as ****.)

Like, it's easy to complain about Fox overwhelming approach and BnB combos, but people undermine how easy it is to get punished if you choose the wrong approach to the matchup or how hard it is to actually do those combos. Do statistics for the character that SDs the most, 100$ it's Fox or Falco.
It's really easy to say "Game & Watch has a hoohah for guaranteed kills, nerf plos" and not realize that it's actually really hard to approach someone with GnW and get those grabs.
It all takes understanding about how neutral works and what are the core tools that the designers want the characters to have.
EG.: They wanna revolve Fox's kit around shine, so it doesn't matter what they change, they are not touching the ****ing shine.

They can come up with cool **** like Ness (which I think right now is in a healthy state of everything) or they can come up with something like League of Legend's Ryze (champion that got reworked 17 times because the mechanics they want him to be based on are extremely dumb)

IMO, those complaints detract the discussion of what really matters in the designing of the game and what should be toned down.
Hence why I want to ask people that don't have enough experience in certain things of the game to refrain from discussing.

 

[MTL Kyle]

LMAOOOOO that's why you shouldn't talk balance if you can't back up your arguments.

"HEY MOM LOOK AT ME, I JUST POSTED A BUNCH OF NUMBERS HAHAHAHAHAHA"

Ike is literally the character that can button press his way through Fox and has the perfect tools to make his mouth shut. It's exactly his questionable frame data and punish game that makes this possible.
I guess I expressed myself wrong when I said "Ike has a better frame data than Fox", as it is extremely easy for a moron to post numbers and say things are objectively superior when matches like Ally vs Armada happen and show how well Ike can poop on Fox, even when the Ike doesn't understand the matchup thoroughly.

 

[_Chrome]

I don't know if we should use Mid-level as a reference to anything. It's the perfect ~grey zone~ of whether something is broken or not really.

That is the cool thing of Smash and other well designed games.
It doesn't matter what option you pick, there will still be opportunity to have outplays and what not. It's also an insanely complicated canvas to draw in, as it takes time to understand why certain things should or should not be changed.

I just don't feel enough people rationalize how certain things are supposed to work. As in, what certain characters give away in order to get something else, or why characters with the same concept have completely different outcomes with their punishes (and why a generalized way of thinking 90% is dumb as ****.)

Like, it's easy to complain about Fox overwhelming approach and BnB combos, but people undermine how easy it is to get punished if you choose the wrong approach to the matchup or how hard it is to actually do those combos. Do statistics for the character that SDs the most, 100$ it's Fox or Falco.
It's really easy to say "Game & Watch has a hoohah for guaranteed kills, nerf plos" and not realize that it's actually really hard to approach someone with GnW and get those grabs.
It all takes understanding about how neutral works and what are the core tools that the designers want the characters to have.
EG.: They wanna revolve Fox's kit around shine, so it doesn't matter what they change, they are not touching the ****ing shine.

They can come up with cool **** like Ness (which I think right now is in a healthy state of everything) or they can come up with something like League of Legend's Ryze (champion that got reworked 17 times because the mechanics they want him to be based on are extremely dumb)

IMO, those complaints detract the discussion of what really matters in the designing of the game and what should be toned down.
Hence why I want to ask people that don't have enough experience in certain things of the game to refrain from discussing.

Regardless of everything you said, you can't reasonably ask people to refrain from discussing on topic in a public forum. It doesn't matter what their experience is. What I hope you mean to say is that you want them to listen more. However, you also stated that people with no Melee experience shouldn't talk... in a PM forum. Please analyze your own views and beliefs before you criticize that of others.

 

[.alizarin]

choosing the wrong approach and difficulty in execution shouldn't even be seriously taken into account until it reaches points where the execution is so difficult that nobody can do it consistently. you very obviously can't nair through everything as fox and have it bring you to the results screen and i would object to calling fox braindead or w/e is being thrown around here, but the fact that his kit lets him deal with the entire cast is just unreasonable. yeah, you have to choose the right tool, but i would hardly say that's part of the equation. every single character has to choose the right tool, but the issue is that not every character has access to tools that let them deal with every scenario that the game throws at them in the way fox does and not to the same degree.

you're basically saying that fox needs to "play well" in order to succeed, and that means nothing

 

[MTL Kyle]

Regardless of everything you said, you can't reasonably ask people to refrain from discussing on topic in a public forum.

True.

you're basically saying that fox needs to "play well" in order to succeed, and that means nothing

Every character needs to play well to be effective.
You need to MASTER every single tool as Fox just to be as effective as other characters sometimes.

However, you also stated that people with no Melee experience shouldn't talk... in a PM forum. Please analyze your own views and beliefs before you criticize that of others.

I said they shouldn't talk about how balanced is Fox or what they should do with Fox. I specifically marginalized those who have PM as their first Smash game ever, as it is incredibly easy to undermine someone's effort when you probably have been playing for at least a quarter of the time as other players.

Don't put words in my mouth please

 

[.alizarin]

again, not relevant to anything you're trying to propose

 

[_Chrome]

True.



Every character needs to play well to be effective.
You need to MASTER every single tool as Fox just to be as effective as other characters sometimes.

True, but sometimes you just have to do generic Fox **** and you'll win against characters like Charizard by primarily doing double lasers and uthrow -> uair, usmash, and dash dance stuff. Foxes definitely have to be on their game to be competitive though, I'll give you that. Like any other character, you have to master their tools and attributes and apply them appropriately based on the situation, location, and opponent.

 

[NWRL]

"HEY MOM LOOK AT ME, I JUST POSTED A BUNCH OF NUMBERS HAHAHAHAHAHA"

Ike is literally the character that can button press his way through Fox and has the perfect tools to make his mouth shut. It's exactly his questionable frame data and punish game that makes this possible.
I guess I expressed myself wrong when I said "Ike has a better frame data than Fox", as it is extremely easy for a moron to post numbers and say things are objectively superior when matches like Ally vs Armada happen and show how well Ike can poop on Fox, even when the Ike doesn't understand the matchup thoroughly.

Oh you mean this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcmXOTwct2Y

Where Ally gets 3-0'd?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWcyfgRB4WY

This one is a little closer at 3-2 but that doesn't really count when the runback is 3-0 after Armada is able to make adjustments.

But continue to prove your own argument wrong by resorting to ad hom when you can't even refute my points lmao

Zigludo watch the first set, this is top level Fox v Ike play and it's playing out exactly how I described it. Fox can just camp Ike out and force him to make a bad approach, and then put Ike in a stagger situation that can be taken to death. Even with Ally doing stuff like heavy SDI, it's extremely hard for Ike to get out of a juggle from Fox. When he doesn't want to camp, Fox can just go crazy on Ike's shield and force him to roll/WD OoS and then punish.

The first game should honestly prove my point for me, Ally was up 2 stocks, and still managed to lose because Fox can just play bait and punish OR rushdown depending on the game tempo, it's not a good matchup for Ike at all, the only thing that keeps Ike in the game against Fox is stuff like his chaingrab.

 

[_Chrome]

LMAOOOO

And that's why you shouldn't say anything if PM is your first Smash game.



I said MK because Narelex had the badge of a MK main.
I said ROB because I'm definitely salty about him LMAO

That's what I was referencing. Unless you were referring to Fox in that case as well, then I never put words in your mouth.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'm fine with Fox the way he is; I like him being the ultimate challenge I set myself up for. And perfectly executing a 0-death on him feels so very rewarding. Doesn't matter who you do it with, it just feels so good.

MTL Kyle The reason people are saying Fox is the best is because really, he is during today's meta. Any player that loses with Fox generally gets outplayed by the other player, not by the character. Weon-X vs Ally at Summit comes to mind.

I don't think _Chrome was putting words into your mouth, your disposition was just misrepresented by the way you worded your posts. I don't think you're being an ass since you actually consider the other side's argument, but your posts can come across a rude.

_Chrome LOL

 

[Zigludo]

Oh you mean this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcmXOTwct2Y

Where Ally gets 3-0'd?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWcyfgRB4WY

This one is a little closer at 3-2 but that doesn't really count when the runback is 3-0 after Armada is able to make adjustments.

But continue to prove your own argument wrong by resorting to ad hom when you can't even refute my points lmao

if anything the fact that Ally could take games at all is indication that it's an imba matchup lol.

people occasionally claim that top level PM players are around the same skill level of top level Melee players but it's demonstrably untrue. you don't see 12 year old kids picking up Melee one day and, after only a year and a half of play, winning international tournaments with 600 man brackets and not even dropping a set, *while devoting most of their practice time to a different Smash game with a completely different character*. that's so far outside the realm of possibility in Melee that it's not even funny, and yet it just happened recently in PM.

Armada's Fox is arguably the hardest character/player combo to beat in the entire world and Ally doesn't even focus on PM. the set count doesn't tell the whole story

I know for a fact that Wario has a bad MU against spacies. Strongbad picked up his MK to help him in certain mu's with spacies being listed squarely as chief offenders.

despite what he may have said, SB picked up MK because of his own shortcomings, not those of Wario. Sosa (the best Wario) acknowledges that Wario Fox is slanted in Wario's favor

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Is he... Strongly bad? kappa

IIRC, can we get a MK up in here to lay down the law on Fox : MK _Chrome Narelex .

Edit: It's slight Fox ^.

Mr. Lz won because no one knew how tf to play against G&W. He's a good player though. Age doesn't really have that much to do with video game capability because IIRC cognitive development peaks at around his age anyways.

 

[_Chrome]

Is he... Strongly bad? kappa

IIRC, can we get a MK up in here to lay down the law on Fox : MK _Chrome Narelex .

We don't really need to, considering no one has outright complained about him yet or brought up discussion about him... but if the discussion goes that way I'm not opposed to it.

 

[Narelex]

I think a more lucrative discussion could be trying to figure what characters could potentially do better then even against Fox.

Pikachu is one that deserves a look IMO lack of Pika players makes this a little tough to gauge though.

 

[GmJn]

Whenever a top melee player loses with Fox in Pm the character used goes under intense scrutiny Oracle beat m2k, Ally took games off of armada, mrlz lucky, sethlon mango, professor pro leffen anyone consider match up inexp yet

 

[Zigludo]

Mr. Lz won because no one knew how tf to play against G&W. He's a good player though. Age doesn't really have that much to do with video game capability because IIRC cognitive development peaks at around his age anyways.

really dude, a 600 man bracket and you think that every single person that Lz took out was just ignorant of G&W's options?

that's even objectively untrue because he beat Lunchables and Oracle (twice) in the same tournament and those are both players who have experience against (and have defeated) Dakpo and SB's G&W on the reg

 

[GmJn]

That's like saying "oh he beat macd's peach he should be able.to beat Armada's

 

[Zigludo]

no... It's more like saying "if he can beat Mace's Peach then you can't chalk it up to matchup inexperience if he loses to Armada's Peach."

to eschew the metaphor, I'm saying that you can't blame Lunchables and Oracle losing to GnW on the fact that they don't know how to play against the character properly, since they have both had plenty of experience playing against "high-level" Game and Watch players in the DFW area. Lunchables even posted in this thread defending GnW as a character and saying that he understood the counterplay to GnW punishes, in this thread, prior to Paragon LA

 

[GmJn]

So assuming all of this is true is.it really not plausible that Mrlz just outplayed people, or are people too salty for anyone to get credit for winning in PM?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Surely he played more than two people in bracket. It's not an absolute statement, me saying he got mileage off of match up inexperience, as he certainly outplaced Hungrybox and M2K, as well as many other highly skilled players who he's not objectively better than as a player. So yeah, match up inexperience/bracket set up helped him out; everyone agrees that a bunch of different people could have won given a certain bracket.

 

[Strong Badam]

But can you please not participate in this discussion if your first Smash game was PM ? Thanks

Disregarding the logically fallacious nature of this point, this isn't really acceptable as it's more or less flaming people based on what game they happened to play first. Their game history may influence whether you personally care about their viewpoint, but it is not a logically sound discussion point and doesn't contribute positively to the thread.
Stop double posting, too, please.

despite what he may have said, SB picked up MK because of his own shortcomings, not those of Wario. Sosa (the best Wario) acknowledges that Wario Fox is slanted in Wario's favor

?? Sosa has told me over and over that he thinks Fox is Wario's worst MU and has asked me for advice on it. If you care I can bring up the FB logs. I actually disagree with him, I think it's Toon Link and not Fox, but no one plays that character correctly other than Lunchables. Dunno why you just randomly ****-talked me for no reason either. Seems like some entirely misplaced passive-aggression to me.

 

[Zigludo]

?? Sosa has told me over and over that he thinks Fox is Wario's worst MU and has asked me for advice on it. If you care I can bring up the FB logs.

there u go

Lucky and Larry play Fox in PM vs Wario, so I wouldn't be surprised if those were Sosa's hardest matchups since he plays against them on a regular basis.

 

[Strong Badam]

Hmm he must have changed his opinion since our talks, then. Interesting...

Changing gears here for a second, the "Fox players are better" argument is so old it could be my grandma. It has so many problems that its supporters never attempt to address. Do any people that put forth this notion do anything further to support it? Analyze gameplay between two players where the Fox wins and denote a significant disparity in decision making ability that contributes heavily to the result? Positioning? Habit formation/changing, recognition, punishment? Nope. Never in 3 and a half years have I seen it. Why?
1. User putting forth argument does not understand gameplay deeply enough to do so adequately.
2. User putting forth argument is lazy.
3. User putting forth argument is wrong.

The argument is not demonstrable. The argument does not offer new insight to the character that was previously unknown or unexplored. The argument does not refute any points the other side brings up.

One person said that "Armada/Fox is one of the scariest player/character combinations in Smash history and the fact that Ally was able to take games off of him is proof it's an imbalanced matchup." Isn't Armada a perfect example of why player skill transcends the time a player has used a character? He had been using Fox in tournament for less than 2 months when the posted video occurred! Of course, Armada's brilliance had no trouble shining through and he defeated Ally, someone who had been using Ike nearly exclusively for over a year and is a champion in two other Smash games. I guess the fact Ally even had a chance is just another point in the barrel for how broken Ike is and how hard of a time poor Fox has, right?

Oh and how about the "14 years of metagame development" argument? I guess we're just getting **** on because our opponents are more familiar with their characters, seems reasonable enough to me. But wait, if that was the case, why isn't everyone complaining about Marth, Peach, or even Falco? Jigglypuff? Buffed characters like Samus or Pikachu? What's special about Fox? I dunno man, I guess Fox players are just better. Their betterness results in them being better and the whole thing gets covered in butter and no one can ****ing eat anything because butter is everywhere and that's just nasty.

Officially, I have no stance on whether or not Fox is too strong. Also officially, your arguments make no goddamn sense at all and make me and every other good player want to claw their eyes out.

Also Zigludo there were only 405 entrants at Paragon, not 600.

 

[Zigludo]

One person said that "Armada/Fox is one of the scariest player/character combinations in Smash history and the fact that Ally was able to take games off of him is proof it's an imbalanced matchup." Isn't Armada a perfect example of why player skill transcends the time a player has used a character? He had been using Fox in tournament for less than 2 months when the posted video occurred! Of course, Armada's brilliance had no trouble shining through and he defeated Ally, someone who had been using Ike nearly exclusively for over a year and is a champion in two other Smash games.

despite your use of quotation marks, no, that is not quite what was said. you wrote "it's proof" whereas I wrote "if anything, it's an indication". the difference in connotation is quite meaningful, and I don't think a single matchup between two players can be used as proof of which character wins any given mu

at the time of the set in question I would say that it's almost completely safe to assume that Armada understood and executed his character's options at a higher level than could be said of Ally and Ike. Armada had presumably played dozens if not hundreds of games of Fox in friendlies before switching to the character full time, and had definitely played hundreds if not thousands of games against Fox while also studying the character's options (necessary since Fox is the most popular character in Melee) down to the most minute details over his Melee tournament career of over 8 years. it's also true that Ally had been playing Ike almost exclusively in PM tournaments, but PM was not the game that Ally devoted a majority of his attention or practice to (Ally had already placed at about six major Smash 4 tournaments at the time of McSmashter and the game had been out for three months), and furthermore Ally had only been playing Project M (and, by extension, Ike) for about a year and a half at the time of the set.

in essence, you used several true factual statements (Armada had only recently switched to using Fox in tournament, Ally had been solo maining his character for a longer period of time and is very good at Smash in general) to construe or imply a conclusion which is false - namely, that Armada had less experience/understanding/practice with Fox than Ally had with Ike. I think you knew you were being inaccurate when you wrote that, but I don't think it bothered you very much, because it supports the notion that Fox is overpowered, which you obviously (and unofficially, wink wink) feel very strongly about

Also officially, your arguments make no goddamn sense at all and make me and every other good player want to claw their eyes out.

drop the pretense that everyone who disagrees with you is worse than you. Sosa is quoted in the post immediately above yours as saying "the players that play Fox are just better than most players", and I'll believe that you're better than him if you don't get 2-0'd by him next time. top players in Melee/PM/every game ever made disagree with each other time and insinuating that there's some kind of goodness barrier after which everyone agrees with you is unhelpful

Also Ziguldo there were only 405 entrants at Paragon, not 600.

oh yeah I forgot that the largest PM bracket of all time, at a purportedly PM-centric event, actually got fewer entrants than both Melee and Smash 4 did at the very same event. I don't know how the number 600 got into my head, I guess there's never even been a PM tournament with that many entrants. whoops!

btw it's Zigludo, not Ziguldo. the L comes before the U but it's really late in Texas and you're probably tired so it's understandable that you wouldn't notice a typo or two