Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

i think bowser has a lot more "grappler" esque tools that makes his neutral less-****, like armor. i think bowser is better at dealing with rushdown, i dont think dk wins any matchups at all except maybe marth depending on how well the marth can deal with getting outranged by bair

 

[CORY]

I actually used a lot of axe videos as inspiration for squirtles neutral too, there are a lot of similarities between the two as far as opening up your opponent goes and you don't need to necessarily watch videos of the character you're learning to find inspiration.

A lot of my biggest personal break throughs came about by playing one character, figuring out something effective and why it was effective, and then taking this new idea and working it into another characters game plan.

Like I messed around with dk and his bair walls and ended up using the same type of spacing tactics with squirtle. Turned out that it was one of my missing pieces in the spacie mu since I could approach and take space, but struggled with the rushdown from my opponent. Saw how effective dk could wall them out in this way, figured it should work for squirtle too, and it did.

Obviously this is a simplified version of progressing and everything still requires mixup to be effective, but point is that it could have taken much longer to make this break through if I never tried a character where the tactic was a necessity.

It's like some fox mains who never use utilt. They are able to find enough success through other means that they're never forced to incorporate new tools. Not realizing that this tool they never use may be just what they need to help out in a particularly difficult mu.

Bringing back the pika example, a fox trying to deal with shffl nairs with nothing but dashing away or his own nair is going to have a hard time with pikas approach. But if he's still managing to win or keep it close, he may never bother trying to figure out a better way to handle that specific situation, even if a tool like utilt, which is amazing at stuffing this approach, exists.

Maybe if they try Mario they'll be forced into using utilt since he doesn't quite have the same tools as fox where he can just outrun the approach or out prioritize it with his own nair. Figure out utilt is great, realizes that fox can actually do the same, returns to his main with one more tool on the table and a new understanding of why this new tool is effective

Edit: maybe I'm not tapped out

Way more useful than random junk nausica posts...

 

[didds]

Nausicaa brought it up once, but pika will actually have more trouble with solid, constant hitbox characters rather than rush down, quick conversion characters like spacies.

In a way, spacies are limited to the same sort of precision play that pika has to play. Then we have a character like peach who like melee, does incredibly well against pikachu. Why?

Well we can again look at what pikachu has and what peach has that counters it. I brought up pikas ability to close gaps quickly while being able to preserve many of his options until the second he strikes. This limits fox and what he's able to do. If fox wants to keep his dd game going, he must sacrifice the ability to throw out his anti air utilt. On the flip side, he has to sacrifice some of his mobility if he wants to have utilt available to throw out on the spot. Becomes a complicated mixup of baits and committing to approaches and blah blah they are stuck playing the same game.

Then we have peach, who arguably is one of the best characters when it comes to preserving her mixups and her ambiguity. She does this with a mix of tight dd and float shenanigans. Unlike fox, she can cancel her dd by immediately double jump landing and now she suddenly has all of her options available. So we have a character who preserves a mixup of basically her entire moveset regardless of if she's moving. Now pikachu has to worry about everything peach has to offer.

Then looking at peachs moves we see that they have high priority and often linger. They're also very quick to start up and lack any real indication of what is coming. We can't really know on reaction if peach is going to fc a bair or empty land into immediate dash attack. (This is actually a huge asset that a lot of people don't even actively consider, in addition to her having some of the only frame tight, completely safe shield pressure) Finally, aside from dash attack and dsmash, her moves are difficult to punish. Pikachu, who excels at finding holes, doesnt really have much of a hole to work with. His aerials will be beat out in general and it begins forcing him to use more committal moves. Pikachu doesn't want to have to use usmash in neutral, but peach can force it out of him because it's one of his few moves with enough priority to contend with peach.

For pikachu, it becomes a game of calling out bad floats and dd camping.

We also have pika losing a lot of his edgeguarding potency and although his recovery is still great, it matters less because peach doesn't rely it. She is happy to play a battle of attrition and force as many 50 50s as possible. She's going to beat pika in the long term battle almost every time. She simply likes trades more and puts out more damage in general.

So what can pika do? Well first he has to stay grounded as much as possible. A good peach knows that pika doesn't really have much to threaten peach with in the air. She can basically cc option select everything. Doesn't matter if pika tomahawks, dsmash is coming out during his landing regardless. Now this was way worse in melee and has been improved a bit in pm since pika at least has fair and the occasional bair to contend cc with, but he's still very limited.

The mu boils down to peach staying safe and not pushing too hard. She needs to be a rock and slowly choke the rat out. Pika is stuck playing really lame. He doesn't have lasers to force approaches or anything like that, but he also doesn't have the tools to really threaten peach up close. He's kind of stuck with a mixup between 2 or 3 options in any given situation, all of which are usually pretty linear. It doesn't matter if pika approaches with shffl nair, usmash, dsmash, or grab, peach's design gives her a universal answer. She just cc option selects into dsmash. Aerial? Cc then punish? Getting close and no hitbox yet? Just start the dsmash. Not like she can't just cc again if she was baited.

So now pika is playing a character who can safely counter pikas approach, doesn't get early gimped or edgeguarded, doesn't care that she herself is missing edgeguards, and wants him to rush in for easy trades. That is a very uphill battle. He has things like soft nair to usmash and early thunder kills, but getting that opening in the first place is tough to do. Not to mention how mentally draining it can be to play the mu. It's hard working your ass off as pika for a minute, controlling the pace and reading your opponent, just to get dsmashed once and have percentage be even again.

It's not unwinnable by any means and pikas new dsmash and fair really help the mu, but it will always come down to the fact that the risk reward is heavily skewed in peach's favor. She just benefits more from the messy neutral that happens during every match since we're constantly adapting to each other.

This is me trying to discuss productive things



Edit: lol I just saw the nausicaa comment after I finished this post, that's pretty funny. I think I'm a little better at speaking the language of smashboards then he is, and I usually refrain from posts like this until I've had it very thoroughly thought out.

Personally he's one of my favorite posters. In fact a lot of what I've said sort of aligns with his views too, regardless of who is better at articulating it in an organized and simple manner (he can definitely be a bit all over the place). I don't always agree and sometimes it's hard to follow, but there are a lot of somewhat abstract-ish comments he lays out that line up with my own thoughts. I think one of the biggest turn offs though is sometimes reading and figuring out what the mad man is trying to say seems like more work than it's worth. I definitely commend the amount of effort he puts in though and he always has a unique perspective.

I often disagree with posts but gain a new avenue of how to think about the game just by reading how they think.

I think it's really cool reading people's thoughts and trying to analyze how they came to certain conclusions, and what they may not be considering which you feel is important to something you're talking about.

 

[nimigoha]

i think bowser has a lot more "grappler" esque tools that makes his neutral less-****, like armor. i think bowser is better at dealing with rushdown, i dont think dk wins any matchups at all except maybe marth depending on how well the marth can deal with getting outranged by bair

Neutral:

Bowser: Dash Attack (laggy, if shielded it's a grab for every single character), Waveland->Ftilt (telegraphed AF), SH Flame Breath (just SDI away and he can't touch you after), no good air speed so approaching with Fair is garbage, DD is pretty bad. Crawl->Dtilt is okay depending on the matchup.

DK: Dash Attack (not very laggy, can go through shields and force an option other than grab), Pivot Ftilt, DD is godlike, huge grab, great air speed, Nair->Jab beats shield grabs and can do mixup with Nair->Jab->Jab, RAR Bair is godlike, Run->crouch->Dtilt...

How on earth is Bowser's neutral even comparable to DK's?

DK wins against Roy much more than Marth IMO.

Like I don't know if you've never watched a DK play or you have and you're just forgetful. Bowser has the worst neutral in the game.

 

[didds]

Neutral:

Bowser: Dash Attack (laggy, if shielded it's a grab for every single character), Waveland->Ftilt (telegraphed AF), SH Flame Breath (just SDI away and he can't touch you after), no good air speed so approaching with Fair is garbage, DD is pretty bad. Crawl->Dtilt is okay depending on the matchup.

DK: Dash Attack (not very laggy, can go through shields and force an option other than grab), Pivot Ftilt, DD is godlike, huge grab, great air speed, Nair->Jab beats shield grabs and can do mixup with Nair->Jab->Jab, RAR Bair is godlike, Run->crouch->Dtilt...

How on earth is Bowser's neutral even comparable to DK's?

DK wins against Roy much more than Marth IMO.

Like I don't know if you've never watched a DK play or you have and you're just forgetful. Bowser has the worst neutral in the game.

I'm definitely in the boat of "I constantly play a great dk and simply can't accept that he's bad".

Maybe bottom 5 or 10 still who knows, but not bad. He has great overall mobility and all of his normals are spectacular. Yea he's fat, can't really roll well, and has an "exploitable" recovery, but honestly most of his mus don't feel worse than like 45 55, maybe 40 60.

He's just not very flashy idk

 

[Keman]

tiers arent ordered, only the first and last characters of each tier are, the rest is interchangeable. yes, a tier has 17 characters. i guess i could split it in half into a+ a- but im lazy so this is what u get. if u want me to explain stuff just call me out on it i guess.

So you feel Kirby is just as good as wario and luigi? I always thought those 2 were considered to be better over all. Just curious on what causes them to be of the same teir placements in your mind.

 

[nimigoha]

I'm definitely in the boat of "I constantly play a great dk and simply can't accept that he's bad".

Maybe bottom 5 or 10 still who knows, but not bad. He has great overall mobility and all of his normals are spectacular. Yea he's fat, can't really roll well, and has an "exploitable" recovery, but honestly most of his mus don't feel worse than like 45 55, maybe 40 60.

He's just not very flashy idk

I suspect that a lot of people who say DK is trash just straight up don't play against DK mains.

I think he's bottom 10. But anyone saying that he's worse than Bowser just doesn't get it.

His rolls aren't great because of his size but his tech rolls are so damn good. There's like no telegraph of his direction until he's like pretty much there. Very tough to tech chase outside of hard reads.

 

[didds]

Makes sense, ton of people had pika as like bottom 5 until the past few months. Exposure is huge

 

[mimgrim]

If fox wants to keep his dd game going, he must sacrifice the ability to throw out his anti air utilt.

Except he still kinda can if his pivoting out of a DD is on point?

Bowser: DD is pretty bad.

DK: DD is godlike

I think Bowser's DD is better, tbh.

I think you are way way way way overrating DK's DD cause it seems pretty bad to me (not very big and not all that quick either).

....

As for about DK. After what Poob talked about (of which later he supposedly back tracked on but I'm still not entirely sure what that was about because that Pdigeot was super suspicious) I'm thinking about stuff with DK and trying some things out. My opinion on DK is slowly changing.

 

[didds]

Except he still kinda can if his pivoting out of a DD is on point?





....
.

fair enough, didn't even consider that too much. I'm glad foxes don't use that technology

 

[nimigoha]

I'd say their DDs are comparable by themselves.

But when you look at the scope of what each one can do out of a DD... Bowser's gonna DA you or maybe Boost Grab. As soon as he jumps he loses a lot of momentum, whereas DK can leap and quickly close space, use his better DA or big Grab, or SHFFL Nair or pivot Ftilt...

I'll check up the speeds and frame data when I go home to see how different Bowser and DK's DD actually are.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Yeah I think donkey kong is pretty definitively better than bowser. He combos super well, has good mixups, and isn't as slow in most ways.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

I believe I posted my most recent one on 54.

I don't see anything.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I don't see anything.

it's there. check again.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't see anything.

He means page 954 if you didn't realize that.

If you still can't find it, then, here - http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-954#post-20207990

 

[Frost | Odds]

nimigoha Bowser's boost grab doesn't provide him any additional distance.

Whoever said Falco is Bowser's best matchup: just no.

 

[nimigoha]

nimigoha Bowser's boost grab doesn't provide him any additional distance.

Whoever said Falco is Bowser's best matchup: just no.

Doesn't it give you 2 frames of Armour though?

 

[Frost | Odds]

2 frames of light armor (which beats very little) in exchange for slowing down your grab by 2 frames?

No thanks.

 

[Zigludo]

Whoever said Falco is Bowser's best matchup: just no.

I did, you uncouth scoundrel. It was me all along. You knew it was me.

If it's not Falco who on earth is it? He dies in like two hits if you focus on sending him offstage and the only way he has to kill Bowser early is a dair spike on our recovery which is much easier said than done. You can dashattack and dsmash through nair shine and laser and Falco has almost nonexistent throw punishes vs Bowser.

Seriously even if you think Falco beats Bowser, then who beats Bowser less than Falco?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I did, you uncouth scoundrel. It was me all along. You knew it was me.

If it's not Falco who on earth is it? He dies in like two hits if you focus on sending him offstage and the only way he has to kill Bowser early is a dair spike on our recovery which is much easier said than done. You can dashattack and dsmash through nair shine and laser and Falco has almost nonexistent throw punishes vs Bowser.

Seriously even if you think Falco beats Bowser, then who beats Bowser less than Falco?

Roy? Roy is just a succeptable to stuff as Falco and doesn't have shine or lazor.

 

[Foo]

I just want to add something into the new and unimproved fox debates going on, and that's what makes melee players so goshdarn good.

Is it their tech skill? Not really, there are plenty of PM players with tech skill good enough to match almost any melee player. Is it mind games or spacing? Perhaps, but again, plenty of PM players do just as well at this too. What really seperates melee players from PM players is that they know EVERYTHING that they or the opponent can do at ANY moment. They have seen every option in just about every scenario with every viable characters time and time again. Being ready for anything and knowing everything they can do in response is what makes them so unbelievably good. You think armada gets his insane punishes off of intuition? Of course not, he has preformed the exact combo against that same DI on that same character thousands of times in just about every punish situation.

Now, throw those same players into a game where there are new characters that are strong. Suddenly you know very little of what they are capable of and as a result, are unsure of what YOU can do and get away with. Suddenly your opponents combo weight is just different enough to throw off your punish game etc. etc. etc. It's no secret that ZSS got absolutely bopped by fox in 3.5, yet leffen beat armadas fox consistently (or so I've heard). This is because, while leffen still knew everything fox could do like the back of his hand, armada had very little experience edgeguarding, comboing, DIing, defending and etc. against zss, and that changes everything.

If anything, the fact that so many melee players can pick fox and do as well as they do against characters they know very little about (especially compared to the melee matchups that they are so familiar with) shows how close fox comes to transcending matchups and THAT is what people hate. You have to play in such a different way against fox, but fox still can just get away with the same stuff and it always works.

Also, obligatory "While fox's meta game is arguably pushed farther than any character in the game, so is his COUNTER meta game." While you can (and have to) get away with being unfamiliar with the matchup against a lot of characters in this game, you absolutely cannot get away with not knowing the fox matchup if you want to ever place higher than middle in a tourney.

 

[nimigoha]

Spot on. Fox can Nair Shine or Drill Shine, or runaway and laser camp. It's just such an efficient strategy. Strong neutral, fast approaches.

Everyone knows how to combo Fox with their character. They know how he's going to recover, they know how he's going to approach, yet he can still win in situations where the pilot doesn't really know the matchup. They just win neutral with the same strategy and figure out how you're going to recover and do their best to stop you. Fox is just strong.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Imo ZSS still get bopped by Fox and it's still her worst MU. Well, bottom 3 for sure. CC = death. And no reliable combo starters/easy 0-deaths. But Foo knows that.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Roy? Roy is just a succeptable to stuff as Falco and doesn't have shine or lazor.

Roy's actually significantly more fragile because he doesn't have Falco's recovery mixups. He just sort of dies.

 

[Zigludo]

yeah but he has disjointed hitboxes that don't lose neutral when they connect with armor and he's got a much better dd grab and much more powerful conversions from grab vs Bowser, than Falco does. plus his KO setups are slightly more reliable in this matchup.

overall I'd say it's not a bad matchup for Bowser but Falco is easier than Roy

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I just want to add something into the new and unimproved fox debates going on, and that's what makes melee players so goshdarn good.

Is it their tech skill? Not really, there are plenty of PM players with tech skill good enough to match almost any melee player. Is it mind games or spacing? Perhaps, but again, plenty of PM players do just as well at this too. What really seperates melee players from PM players is that they know EVERYTHING that they or the opponent can do at ANY moment. They have seen every option in just about every scenario with every viable characters time and time again. Being ready for anything and knowing everything they can do in response is what makes them so unbelievably good. You think armada gets his insane punishes off of intuition? Of course not, he has preformed the exact combo against that same DI on that same character thousands of times in just about every punish situation.

Now, throw those same players into a game where there are new characters that are strong. Suddenly you know very little of what they are capable of and as a result, are unsure of what YOU can do and get away with. Suddenly your opponents combo weight is just different enough to throw off your punish game etc. etc. etc. It's no secret that ZSS got absolutely bopped by fox in 3.5, yet leffen beat armadas fox consistently (or so I've heard). This is because, while leffen still knew everything fox could do like the back of his hand, armada had very little experience edgeguarding, comboing, DIing, defending and etc. against zss, and that changes everything.

If anything, the fact that so many melee players can pick fox and do as well as they do against characters they know very little about (especially compared to the melee matchups that they are so familiar with) shows how close fox comes to transcending matchups and THAT is what people hate. You have to play in such a different way against fox, but fox still can just get away with the same stuff and it always works.

Also, obligatory "While fox's meta game is arguably pushed farther than any character in the game, so is his COUNTER meta game." While you can (and have to) get away with being unfamiliar with the matchup against a lot of characters in this game, you absolutely cannot get away with not knowing the fox matchup if you want to ever place higher than middle in a tourney.

Just going ahead and saying I like the bulk of what I'm reading here whether or not I agree with it. Some very good points. As a Sonic player I very often get melee veterans who have no clue how to deal with me, no matter how good they are.

 

[steelguttey]

So you feel Kirby is just as good as wario and luigi? I always thought those 2 were considered to be better over all. Just curious on what causes them to be of the same teir placements in your mind.

kirby is a really weird case of a character i dont feel like we talk about enough

he is essentially the perfect secondary, he beats gatekeepers like sheik and is one of the few characters that have backwards-ish matchups in the sense that he loses to alot of brawl characters and beats melee characters most people have problems with, and its questionable if this is good design or not. jiggs is in a really similar place because she still beats sheik (iirc feel free to correct me on that one) and although marth-puff is argued upon pretty often i still think jiggs wins it at least slightly. anyway, back on topic, i honestly cant tell if this is well designed or not. i like the idea of a "secondary character" but at the same time, that means you cant win with that character only in a tournament unless you get extremely lucky, which kind of wastes a character slot.

another thing i want to address is the idea that anyone under a certain tier cant win a tournament, which is statistically incorrect. tier lists are one big matchup spread, right? well then if a character has even matchups across the whole board hes gonna be comfortably mid tier in a balanced game. at the same time, another character can have really good matchups with the top 10 of the cast and have bad matchups with the rest and still be mid tier because having good matchups with high tiers has more value than having good matchups with low tiers, ala melee sheik. something to think about, im tired of the whole "this tier of character needs a secondary to win a major" because thats generalizing it so hard.

just realized i completely ignored your question, sry kinda wente off on a tangent there. to answer your question, and sorry this is a lame answer, but i dont know. kirby has good matchups with high tiers and bad matchups with low tiers, luigi and wario have pretty even matchups spreads. so i guess it does go a little along with my tangent.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

kirby is a really weird case of a character i dont feel like we talk about enough

he is essentially the perfect secondary, he beats gatekeepers like sheik and is one of the few characters that have backwards-ish matchups in the sense that he loses to alot of brawl characters and beats melee characters most people have problems with, and its questionable if this is good design or not. jiggs is in a really similar place because she still beats sheik (iirc feel free to correct me on that one) and although marth-puff is argued upon pretty often i still think jiggs wins it at least slightly. anyway, back on topic, i honestly cant tell if this is well designed or not. i like the idea of a "secondary character" but at the same time, that means you cant win with that character only in a tournament unless you get extremely lucky, which kind of wastes a character slot.

another thing i want to address is the idea that anyone under a certain tier cant win a tournament, which is statistically incorrect. tier lists are one big matchup spread, right? well then if a character has even matchups across the whole board hes gonna be comfortably mid tier in a balanced game. at the same time, another character can have really good matchups with the top 10 of the cast and have bad matchups with the rest and still be mid tier because having good matchups with high tiers has more value than having good matchups with low tiers, ala melee sheik. something to think about, im tired of the whole "this tier of character needs a secondary to win a major" because thats generalizing it so hard.

just realized i completely ignored your question, sry kinda wente off on a tangent there. to answer your question, and sorry this is a lame answer, but i dont know. kirby has good matchups with high tiers and bad matchups with low tiers, luigi and wario have pretty even matchups spreads. so i guess it does go a little along with my tangent.

Jiggs proabably still beats Sheik because although Sheik lost some of her dthrow advantage, she gained RAR Bair which is really good for keeping Puff out. I don't actually recall what most Sheik players think and I don't have any match up experience with Puff in this game. They all think Puff's useless in PM :/.

About Marth : Puff - yeah, it is arguable, but all the Marth has to do is not eff up. Puff doesn't really have any way to deal with Marth's sword. If she's on the ground, dtilt; if she's in the air, fair, if she somehow invades your space because you forced an airdodge, utilt. If she's on the ground and you want to grab, DON'T jc grab unless you know she's not going to crouch under it otherwise you're getting rested. Fthrow most of the time for positional advantage, bad DI can lead to tipper fsmash. You'll still probably get most of your kills off of uair/utilt though. Marth has answers for everything Puff can do, except her edge guards are scary, but Marth really shouldn't be hit that much at all anyways. Marths just need to play cleaner is all. The match up's easy imo.

And Kirby against the space animals is no laughing matter. I've practiced his punishes to the point where I know Kirby has some of the most potent punishes on spacies and what I'd put without hesitation as top 5 edge guarding capabilities in the game against them. It's incredibly hilarious, just takes good execution is all. He struggles to get a hit in on them but there are ways to trick them into situations where you can get a grab or read a nair and fsmash. Kirby's alright (IIRC) against Meta Knight and alright against Marth too. And yeah, he can give Sheik trouble too. Spot on.

 

[mimgrim]

Jiggs doesn't beat Sheik in Melee in its current meta. It's an even MU when played correctly now. And Dthrow has nothing to do with it (because grabbing is a bad idea against Jiggs). I would say it is most likely the same in P:M aside from like 1 or 2 differences. Lotsa Needles and Nairs and Bairs.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Ehhh... I dunno... Sheik's punishes on Puff kinda suck. And yeah, grabbing is an option, it's not the best option but it's always there so the dthrow nerf does do something.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Jiggs proabably still beats Sheik because although Sheik lost some of her dthrow advantage, she gained RAR Bair which is really good for keeping Puff out. I don't actually recall what most Sheik players think and I don't have any match up experience with Puff in this game. They all think Puff's useless in PM :/.

About Marth : Puff - yeah, it is arguable, but all the Marth has to do is not eff up. Puff doesn't really have any way to deal with Marth's sword. If she's on the ground, dtilt; if she's in the air, fair, if she somehow invades your space because you forced an airdodge, utilt. If she's on the ground and you want to grab, DON'T jc grab unless you know she's not going to crouch under it otherwise you're getting rested. Fthrow most of the time for positional advantage, bad DI can lead to tipper fsmash. You'll still probably get most of your kills off of uair/utilt though. Marth has answers for everything Puff can do, except her edge guards are scary, but Marth really shouldn't be hit that much at all anyways. Marths just need to play cleaner is all. The match up's easy imo.

And Kirby against the space animals is no laughing matter. I've practiced his punishes to the point where I know Kirby has some of the most potent punishes on spacies and what I'd put without hesitation as top 5 edge guarding capabilities in the game against them. It's incredibly hilarious, just takes good execution is all. He struggles to get a hit in on them but there are ways to trick them into situations where you can get a grab or read a nair and fsmash. Kirby's alright (IIRC) against Meta Knight and alright against Marth too. And yeah, he can give Sheik trouble too. Spot on.

Just going to pop in and mention you should do some reading on the marth puff matchup.

 

[FreeGamer]

Kirby's juggle game against fastfallers has been a joke ever since his U-Tilt and Cutter Dash got sacrificed to the 3.5 gods. It's his edgeguarding and Hammer setups that make spacies somewhat tolerable. His MU spread has some pretty weird outliers, but for every character he bizarrely beats, he gets countered in some capacity by 3-4 other characters.

If your tier list is written strictly with solo viability in mind, putting him hovering around the border between Mid and Low makes perfect sense. He isn't great, but he isn't awful enough to be instant bottom 10 either.

 

[mimgrim]

Ehhh... I dunno... Sheik's punishes on Puff kinda suck. And yeah, grabbing is an option, it's not the best option but it's always there so the dthrow nerf does do something.

Grab is risky against puff for Sheik because Jiggs can crouch under it leading to a free Rest. Dash Attack is also bad.

The MU is just really really slow and requires Sheik to be played differently from how she normally would. Sheik wants to be doing a lot more work on-stage and going for kills of the top.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqz3Is1j9kw

Is a good example of how the Sheik/Puff MU should be played by Sheik (Shroomed still lost but he was going against Hbox and still did mad good in the set so respect should be given). You can also see if you can find KirbyKaze talking about the MU.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

If it's the set where they time out, I've seen it. Dash attack is of course useless since it's even more punishable than grab. I understand that grab is risky since she can crouch under it but there are opportunities where you can get grabs. I wasn't necessarily talking about optimized play either where the Jiggs doesn't put themselves in that position. I'm totally comfortable as Sheik against Jiggs in a tournament because bair and ftilt are enough to wall her out. And of course needles since those things are a top 5 projectile in the game.

And frankxthexbunny tell me where I'm going wrong because that's a pretty solid analysis of how it works out in my opinion. In most circumstances Marths don't have an excuse for getting hit other than poor spacing unless they'd thrown out a laggy move or let her get in. Seriously, fair is a godsend in this matchup and literally carries Marth to victory. Unless you're fsmashing in neutral or something stupid like that then you shouldn't really be hit all that much.

Edit: Threw in some reference material for you to read up on.

Marth vs Puff Reddit Discussion Dec 2014
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2q0e1t/why_is_the_marth_vs_jigglypuff_matchup_in_jiggs/
PPMD1 sums it up nicely.

MIOM Beginner Marth Guide
http://www.meleeitonme.com/sharpening-your-sword-tais-marth-guide/
Says Marth gets hit when overextending. Don't overextend. Simple.

Smash the Record M2K vs HBox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80QHoWe2xQY
Observe when M2K is hit in the first game. Think about it. Mostly when he's mis-spaced a move or chosen a bad option that puts him into lag.

I don't understand why you feel the need to question my credibility when all the points I've made are valid.

Edit 2: I see it's not that set. My b. Yeah, that set is awesome. Just started watching it again. No matter how much I tell people I'm okay with that matchup people in my region tell me I'm wrong lol.

Could we get back on topic please?

 

[MTL Kyle]

I had a giant wall of text that I decided to not post.

Mainly because there is nothing to be discussed.
You guys are convinced that Fox is the best. I'm convinced you are all dumb and don't know how fighting games work and sincerely, it's going to go on and on until one of us gets tired.

But then, when I'm ready to go to sleep, calm down and not get triggered by all those stupid posts, this guy named steelguttey posts this gore image that he calls tier list, where borked characters with no good matchups like Ice Climbers are not ranked as utter trash and Melee characters who are basically handicapped versions of other PM characters are ranked as A tier.

I want to argue with you all, but I don't feel it's going to be worth my time.


Y'all gotta stop being kids and stop participating in internet circlejerks and think by yourselves once in a while.

 

[Saproling]

Go and stay go.

 

[Soft Serve]

I had a giant wall of text that I decided to not post.

Mainly because there is nothing to be discussed.
You guys are convinced that Fox is the best. I'm convinced you are all dumb and don't know how fighting games work and sincerely, it's going to go on and on until one of us gets tired.

But then, when I'm ready to go to sleep, calm down and not get triggered by all those stupid posts, this guy named steelguttey posts this gore image that he calls tier list, where borked characters with no good matchups like Ice Climbers are not ranked as utter trash and Melee characters who are basically handicapped versions of other PM characters are ranked as A tier.

I want to argue with you all, but I don't feel it's going to be worth my time.


Y'all gotta stop being kids and stop participating in internet circlejerks and think by yourselves once in a while.

I think you should learn to present clear arguments and proper support when confronted about your claims instead of just falling back on ad-homs

I think its very clear, specifically on "how fighting games work" (whatever sort of baseless justification that is) that fox is the best character in the game. All of your arguments/discussions otherwise have been "LMMAAOOOOOOOOOO, you dont get neutral, yeah fox has the best neutral tools but fox players also mess up," while also implying that fox mains are more likely to mess up than other players. Despite what that implies (that not-fox players mess up less are therefore are better players, so when they lose its because fox), its still a horrible thing to base an argument on, because its already part of whats factored into MU spreads or ratios. People messing up is exactly why if your character loses neutral more often than not in a MU its still not considered unwinnable, we aren't robots, and you supporting your arguments on the assumption that we don't realize this is ridiculous. Yeah, shiek vs fox in melee is rough because neutral is rough, fox is the one that has to mess up. Yeah, shieks beat fox in melee because the fox player messed up more times than the shiek player did.

None of us are claiming "Oh fox wins neutral on paper, its a 90:10 MU." We're saying Fox has better tools than most of the cast in nearly every situation, and even though he can afford to make less mistakes, there are far less opportunities for him to be forced to take a guess that would lead to a mistake.

You're ridiculous lol.

edit: I also dont think fox is the best. I think wolf is better, and does better in nearly every MU save spacie dittos and samus

 

[steelguttey]

I had a giant wall of text that I decided to not post.

Mainly because there is nothing to be discussed.
You guys are convinced that Fox is the best. I'm convinced you are all dumb and don't know how fighting games work and sincerely, it's going to go on and on until one of us gets tired.

But then, when I'm ready to go to sleep, calm down and not get triggered by all those stupid posts, this guy named steelguttey posts this gore image that he calls tier list, where borked characters with no good matchups like Ice Climbers are not ranked as utter trash and Melee characters who are basically handicapped versions of other PM characters are ranked as A tier.

I want to argue with you all, but I don't feel it's going to be worth my time.


Y'all gotta stop being kids and stop participating in internet circlejerks and think by yourselves once in a while.

do.. do you need a hug or something? u ok?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I did, you uncouth scoundrel. It was me all along. You knew it was me.

If it's not Falco who on earth is it? He dies in like two hits if you focus on sending him offstage and the only way he has to kill Bowser early is a dair spike on our recovery which is much easier said than done. You can dashattack and dsmash through nair shine and laser and Falco has almost nonexistent throw punishes vs Bowser.

Seriously even if you think Falco beats Bowser, then who beats Bowser less than Falco?

Was it you that said bowser can crawl through falco lasers = good match up?

I cant remember but falco combos bowser to death % easy.

I think bowser has maybe 2 winning match ups... maybe...?

 

[.alizarin]

I had a giant wall of text that I decided to not post.

Mainly because there is nothing to be discussed.
You guys are convinced that Fox is the best. I'm convinced you are all dumb and don't know how fighting games work and sincerely, it's going to go on and on until one of us gets tired.

But then, when I'm ready to go to sleep, calm down and not get triggered by all those stupid posts, this guy named steelguttey posts this gore image that he calls tier list, where borked characters with no good matchups like Ice Climbers are not ranked as utter trash and Melee characters who are basically handicapped versions of other PM characters are ranked as A tier.

I want to argue with you all, but I don't feel it's going to be worth my time.


Y'all gotta stop being kids and stop participating in internet circlejerks and think by yourselves once in a while.

you have said absolutely nothing of value since coming into this thread. you keep trying to sprinkle actual ideas in with your trademark insults and i have to say that they're not helping. and while your pretentiousness reached comical levels a couple of posts back and i find it amusing reading how adamantly you attempt to emulate youtube comments on a music video, i feel you should definitely go somewhere else and stay there. thanks!