Tier List Speculation

[Kneato]

Have you tried power shielding?

I see posts like this all the time. Does anyone realize how hard it is to power shield consistently enough to actually make it a reliable projectile counter? Even the best players of this game barely powershield on a consistent basis.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Mario's fireballs are the most infuriating projectile in the game.

I know they were nerfed to have more landing lag in 3.5 and do a whole 1% less damage but I still feel like they're too good. Maybe I'm missing something but trading, spot dodging, rolling, or wave dashing oos only put me in a worse position when the next pill appears. Sure a well timed jab trade into <insert move here> can punish an approach but the way they bounce makes it hard to even hit, especially if they shoot it from a platform. Trading with a pill with any move with more ending lag then a jab leads to getting hit by the next pill or being grabbed/hit by an approaching Mario immediately after. Shielding means Mario gets a free approach; spot-dodging is similar. wave dashing out (has to be away) means giving up positioning. Rolling is punishable or again forces you to give up stage position. Spamming pills in neutral should not be as effective as it is. I might even go as far as to call it "janky".

You know what, Mario is just an infuriating character overall. His crouch cancel everything into down smash makes me so mad. It comes out so fast, has solid range and hits both sides of him. Good luck spacing aerials safely unless you've got a shine to bail you out. Is there a better crouch-cancel option the game? Plus, his weight means he's crouch canceling attacks at stupidly high percentages. On top of that he's short enough that he ducks under a lot of moves which makes it even safer for a Mario to abuse.

And what about the cape nullifying every projectile with an animation that doesn't match how long it's out? I can't tell you how many times I've tried to thread the needle with a charge shot after baiting the first cape only to have it reflected by his shoulder on the first few frames of cape #2. Hell the cape is just annoying in general. Getting your up-b caped is so frustrating. Worse still is its ability to turn you around through a shield; why is this a thing? Screw the cape.

On top of that a dash attack that beats crouch canceling at any percent in addition to being a potent combo starter. A kill and a combo throw. A generally great combo game and assortment of high-priority/combo-sustaining aerials (that back air though). Good weight and recovery. An up-b that has caused me more stage-spike deaths than I care to admit in addition to being really difficult to punish. Great vertical and horizontal kill options. Low technical barrier. AGHHHH.

Yeah I'm salty. Probably because I'm a Samus main and this plumber nullifies so much of what makes her good/fun.

Am I the only one who hates this character?

I play a ton of mario, as I assume most people do because of how fun he is, and without justifying with actual data I'll say that I think fireballs are fine, while being one of his strongest options, and cape is ridiculous, not in an overpowered way but more of a like I don't understand why you made it this way kinda way and I also think mario is one of the best in the game at the moment.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I play a ton of mario, as I assume most people do because of how fun he is, and without justifying with actual data I'll say that I think fireballs are fine, while being one of his strongest options, and cape is ridiculous, not in an overpowered way but more of a like I don't understand why you made it this way kinda way and I also think mario is one of the best in the game at the moment.

I think mario is in a good spot, just clean up that weird cape animation (not the hit box) and ill be happy. Its weird, looks glitchy, and overall way more decieving then it actually should be.

 

[nimigoha]

Mario has a lot of BS. Like straight up, he has very questionable attributes but everyone says "he's good but has little range".

Fireballs are an amazing projectile with their incredibly versatile angles. Loads of damage, very little cooldown means easy followup from SH fireballs.

Cape is cape. Look at the hitboxes on it. Sweetspot or just die. "But that's being edgeguarded!" Yeah but if I don't sweetspot and get Fsmashed by Marth I get a chance to tech, it won't kill me until 80%, and the edgeguard requires correct spacing.

Dash Attack is a long lasting hitbox and that's fine, but it needs like 5 more frames before IASA. For its great trajectory pop up you can follow up on it way too easily, especially since it can beat spot dodges.

His SJP is stupid. 7 frames of invincibility that cover half of the distance, leading into the craziest sweetspot grab box in the game, barring Luigi's Missile. Like, just increase the vertical distance and make the grab box actually part of the character and not a "easy free sweetspot for you" halo.

His smashes are crazy fast and powerful. I don't know if people realize this or are hiding behind "but range" but when a frame 3 (I'm pretty sure) Dsmash can kill a mid weight at 80%, with like lots of his smashes very little commitment, you've got a dangerous setup.

I don't know why he's always like B tier on the lists posted here. H was considered top 10 in 3.02 like universally and his nerfs since then have been chump change compared to the overhauls Lucas and Diddy and Mewtwo got. I consider him a top 10 character.

People always quote him as a Jack of all trades, and while he may be master of none he's pretty darn good at most.

Edit: the final CT 3.02 tier list has him at fifth

Edit: forgot his down air. Move is crazy. Hitboxes have been decreased in size since 3.02 and multiplier normalized, but it's still so good.

 

[Foo]

Mario has a lot of BS. Like straight up, he has very questionable attributes but everyone says "he's good but has little range".

Fireballs are an amazing projectile with their incredibly versatile angles. Loads of damage, very little cooldown means easy followup from SH fireballs.

Cape is cape. Look at the hitboxes on it. Sweetspot or just die. "But that's being edgeguarded!" Yeah but if I don't sweetspot and get Fsmashed by Marth I get a chance to tech, it won't kill me until 80%, and the edgeguard requires correct spacing.

Dash Attack is a long lasting hitbox and that's fine, but it needs like 5 more frames before IASA. For its great trajectory pop up you can follow up on it way too easily, especially since it can beat spot dodges.

His SJP is stupid. 7 frames of invincibility that cover half of the distance, leading into the craziest sweetspot grab box in the game, barring Luigi's Missile. Like, just increase the vertical distance and make the grab box actually part of the character and not a "easy free sweetspot for you" halo.

His smashes are crazy fast and powerful. I don't know if people realize this or are hiding behind "but range" but when a frame 3 (I'm pretty sure) Dsmash can kill a mid weight at 80%, with like lots of his smashes very little commitment, you've got a dangerous setup.

I don't know why he's always like B tier on the lists posted here. H was considered top 10 in 3.02 like universally and his nerfs since then have been chump change compared to the overhauls Lucas and Diddy and Mewtwo got. I consider him a top 10 character.

People always quote him as a Jack of all trades, and while he may be master of none he's pretty darn good at most.

Edit: the final CT 3.02 tier list has him at fifth

Edit: forgot his down air. Move is crazy. Hitboxes have been decreased in size since 3.02 and multiplier normalized, but it's still so good.

I think you are absolutely correct about all of this, minus any implication that there is a problem. Yes, mario cape is more punishing on missed sweetspots than other characters normal smash attacks. Yes his smashes come out insanely quickly with good power. However, he has the trade off of short range. He has fireballs to circumvent this, but it only does so much. Thus, he is balanced but has very defined strengths and weaknesses. It's ok to have things that are ridiculously strong on characters as long as there is reasonable counterplay and the character doesn't have too many things that are ridiculously strong. (i.e. while super fast and strong smashes are fine on mario, I don't think Fox deserves them).

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I'd be more okay with him if it weren't for how ridiculously good his downthrow is, especially since it's not so hard to land a grab.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Mario has a lot of BS. Like straight up, he has very questionable attributes but everyone says "he's good but has little range".

Fireballs are an amazing projectile with their incredibly versatile angles. Loads of damage, very little cooldown means easy followup from SH fireballs.

Cape is cape. Look at the hitboxes on it. Sweetspot or just die. "But that's being edgeguarded!" Yeah but if I don't sweetspot and get Fsmashed by Marth I get a chance to tech, it won't kill me until 80%, and the edgeguard requires correct spacing.

Dash Attack is a long lasting hitbox and that's fine, but it needs like 5 more frames before IASA. For its great trajectory pop up you can follow up on it way too easily, especially since it can beat spot dodges.

His SJP is stupid. 7 frames of invincibility that cover half of the distance, leading into the craziest sweetspot grab box in the game, barring Luigi's Missile. Like, just increase the vertical distance and make the grab box actually part of the character and not a "easy free sweetspot for you" halo.

His smashes are crazy fast and powerful. I don't know if people realize this or are hiding behind "but range" but when a frame 3 (I'm pretty sure) Dsmash can kill a mid weight at 80%, with like lots of his smashes very little commitment, you've got a dangerous setup.

I don't know why he's always like B tier on the lists posted here. H was considered top 10 in 3.02 like universally and his nerfs since then have been chump change compared to the overhauls Lucas and Diddy and Mewtwo got. I consider him a top 10 character.

People always quote him as a Jack of all trades, and while he may be master of none he's pretty darn good at most.

Edit: the final CT 3.02 tier list has him at fifth

Edit: forgot his down air. Move is crazy. Hitboxes have been decreased in size since 3.02 and multiplier normalized, but it's still so good.

Maybe i need to play against a good mario, i never really had a problem with the character...

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Maybe i need to play against a good mario, i never really had a problem with the character...

strangely enough I've always had a bit of trouble against bowser with mario. so that might have somethign to do with it

 

[nimigoha]

I think you are absolutely correct about all of this, minus any implication that there is a problem. Yes, mario cape is more punishing on missed sweetspots than other characters normal smash attacks. Yes his smashes come out insanely quickly with good power. However, he has the trade off of short range. He has fireballs to circumvent this, but it only does so much. Thus, he is balanced but has very defined strengths and weaknesses. It's ok to have things that are ridiculously strong on characters as long as there is reasonable counterplay and the character doesn't have too many things that are ridiculously strong. (i.e. while super fast and strong smashes are fine on mario, I don't think Fox deserves them).

He does have too many things that are strong. Literally every single one of his moves, maybe barring Tornado, absolutely excels.

I don't understand the range argument, at least not enough to say "yeah this character is clearly very very strong in all aspects but he's completely balanced because of his slightly smaller range".

"Fireballs only do so much" what does this even mean? They only do 7%? They only have great followups? They only come out decently quickly? They only clank with each other if your opponent manages to power shield one? They only have varying trajectory and can block multiple approach angles? They're only pretty good at stopping edgeguards?

They're a fantastic projectile. Possibly the third best projectile in the game after Falco/Fox lasers. They do a whole lot.

Falco doesn't have range either, and he has a pretty slow run speed. He has a projectile that can force an approach, except it does like no percent, it has a single trajectory. It's transcendent so I think it's better but it clearly helps with him getting in on people.

Mario's overall kit is extremely good. He's a combo machine that can edgeguard at 0%, convert throws into kills, kill at 80% with a frame 3 smash, harass at long distance, sweetspot for free...

But I guess his mild range makes all this okay.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Again, why does nobody mention fair for Yoshi???

 

[Soft Serve]

X character has good things, I don't want to deal with them, only my character should have good things.

Like seriously? Mario has good stuff because he has a middling ground speed Sans wavelands, which increases his range problem, and a pretty bad recovery if people just learn how to deal with it.

Falco has crazy movement out of a dash jump, and the Falling speed to move around quickly using almost solely that. Mario is too floaty to move in the ways falco does, that's a bad comparison.

Fireballs are good projectile, because characters should have good things? There's tons out counterplay to them. If he full hops to do them, dash under him or under the arch of the bounce and take space. If he's doing them too close you can just push through them and hit him as well. If he's doing them full screan he is just taking up space, jab them and walk in. They are good projectiles but saying they are near falco lasers for being the best in the game means they are better than wolf laser, shiek needles, bananas, bombs, etc.


It's like having good things isn't okay.

 

[mimgrim]

Mario has the mobility to circumvent his short range as well, anyway. I don't get why keep bringing up the short range thing because Mario has some good grounded movement to make up for it.

I have found Mario to be a little bit of an annoying character to fight against but not for most of the reasons that are currently being discussed (aside from the absurd invincibility on SJP, **** that ****, like I wouldn't mind if it had like frame 1 invcibility for OoS stuff and then lasted for like 3 frames after that or something but 7 is kinda ridiculous, I think the rest of everything brought up is fine for him to have though and is kinda being blown out of proportion). My small gripe with him is more about how he is just heavy enough and just floaty enough to be able to escape out of combos fairly easy combined with the fact that he himself has a pretty good, and very varied, combo game to use on the opponent. Just gets under my skin a little and I would like it if he received a small weight decrease or something as a result.

But it isn't something I feel is actually completely needed to be done to him though.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Seriously, Mario is pretty good, but the counterplay is also pretty managable if you know what you're doing.

Basically how a character should be rofl. How about we just buff the character that don't excel instead of killing fun.

Although I have to admit that his cape is made of 100% finest salty silk

 

[Jonyc128]

Mario's fireballs are the most infuriating projectile in the game.

I know they were nerfed to have more landing lag in 3.5 and do a whole 1% less damage but I still feel like they're too good. Maybe I'm missing something but trading, spot dodging, rolling, or wave dashing oos only put me in a worse position when the next pill appears. Sure a well timed jab trade into <insert move here> can punish an approach but the way they bounce makes it hard to even hit, especially if they shoot it from a platform. Trading with a pill with any move with more ending lag then a jab leads to getting hit by the next pill or being grabbed/hit by an approaching Mario immediately after. Shielding means Mario gets a free approach; spot-dodging is similar. wave dashing out (has to be away) means giving up positioning. Rolling is punishable or again forces you to give up stage position. Spamming pills in neutral should not be as effective as it is. I might even go as far as to call it "janky".

You know what, Mario is just an infuriating character overall. His crouch cancel everything into down smash makes me so mad. It comes out so fast, has solid range and hits both sides of him. Good luck spacing aerials safely unless you've got a shine to bail you out. Is there a better crouch-cancel option the game? Plus, his weight means he's crouch canceling attacks at stupidly high percentages. On top of that he's short enough that he ducks under a lot of moves which makes it even safer for a Mario to abuse.

And what about the cape nullifying every projectile with an animation that doesn't match how long it's out? I can't tell you how many times I've tried to thread the needle with a charge shot after baiting the first cape only to have it reflected by his shoulder on the first few frames of cape #2. Hell the cape is just annoying in general. Getting your up-b caped is so frustrating. Worse still is its ability to turn you around through a shield; why is this a thing? Screw the cape.

On top of that a dash attack that beats crouch canceling at any percent in addition to being a potent combo starter. A kill and a combo throw. A generally great combo game and assortment of high-priority/combo-sustaining aerials (that back air though). Good weight and recovery. An up-b that has caused me more stage-spike deaths than I care to admit in addition to being really difficult to punish. Great vertical and horizontal kill options. Low technical barrier. AGHHHH.

Yeah I'm salty. Probably because I'm a Samus main and this plumber nullifies so much of what makes her good/fun.

Am I the only one who hates this character?

But you play Samus and you're heavier than Mario, so you can CC for much longer than he can. Not to mention you're floaty so you can get out of Mario's combos fairly easily, and let's not forget to mention your recovery which is one of the best in game. Also followup question, where are you taking Mario that fireballs are giving you such a major issue?

EDIT: Also regarding SJP, I can agree it's silly to have invincibility for that long on a move that moves relatively quickly and probably functions as one of the best OoS in the game, if you've got a platform above you.
Also Mario doesn't have a frame 3 smash attack, Downsmash hits frame 5 Upsmash frame 9 and forward smash frame 12 or 13 IIRC. Mario's fastest move is his Jab which hits frame 2 and can lead into grab, double jab, dtilt, uptilt downsmash if the opponent doesn't CC it.
Also his dair isn't even that stupid anymore, they made it easier to SDI out of now, and the hitbox is basically his body
Also if Mario edgeguards you at 0% don't blame him lol. You're the idiot that decided to go off stage when Mario's standing right there with his Cape in hand

 

[tasteless gentleman]

But you play Samus and you're heavier than Mario, so you can CC for much longer than he can. Not to mention you're floaty so you can get out of Mario's combos fairly easily, and let's not forget to mention your recovery which is one of the best in game. Also followup question, where are you taking Mario that fireballs are giving you such a major issue?

EDIT: Also regarding SJP, I can agree it's silly to have invincibility for that long on a move that moves relatively quickly and probably functions as one of the best OoS in the game, if you've got a platform above you.
Also Mario doesn't have a frame 3 smash attack, Downsmash hits frame 5 Upsmash frame 9 and forward smash frame 12 or 13 IIRC. Mario's fastest move is his Jab which hits frame 2 and can lead into grab, double jab, dtilt, uptilt downsmash if the opponent doesn't CC it.
Also his dair isn't even that stupid anymore, they made it easier to SDI out of now, and the hitbox is basically his body
Also if Mario edgeguards you at 0% don't blame him lol. You're the idiot that decided to go off stage when Mario's standing right there with his Cape in hand

I honestly thing mario is balanced, He can be countered, decent match spread, a little knowledge is needed to fight him. Good moves (notice i say good not great or bad). Just clean that cape up and maybe trim some invincibilty from the air version of up special and then i think we can start rebuiliding every character to this level.

Also as for the bowser having a decent match against mario, i think its because dash attack takes away from marios fire ball game and bowser can edgegaurd the weird mario stuff.

 

[Jonyc128]

I honestly thing mario is balanced, He can be countered, decent match spread, a little knowledge is needed to fight him. Good moves (notice i say good not great or bad). Just clean that cape up and maybe trim some invincibilty from the air version of up special and then i think we can start rebuiliding every character to this level.

Also as for the bowser having a decent match against mario, i think its because dash attack takes away from mariand os fire ball game and bowser can edgegaurd the weird mario stuff.

I've always thought Mario/Bowser was 60/40 for Mario but Bowser wins on the smaller stages like WW and YS

 

[Boiko]

Mario has a lot of BS. Like straight up, he has very questionable attributes but everyone says "he's good but has little range".

No, that's not what it's all about. All of Mario's tools have very straightforward counter play.

Fireballs are an amazing projectile with their incredibly versatile angles. Loads of damage, very little cooldown means easy followup from SH fireballs.

Fireballs are good, sure, but they're very easy to avoid, and any aerial will go right through them. When Mario is camping with fireballs, I use back airs to hit through the fireball and continue to hit Mario. It's your job to make him feel unsafe using them. If he's getting follow ups out of them, that's probably your fault. Are you shielding the fireball when he is close enough to run in and grab? Instead, wavedash back and throw out a hitbox. Maybe wavedash or dash in under the fireball depending on your character's height. Or, if he's using it that close, just jump up and nair him.

Cape is cape. Look at the hitboxes on it. Sweetspot or just die. "But that's being edgeguarded!" Yeah but if I don't sweetspot and get Fsmashed by Marth I get a chance to tech, it won't kill me until 80%, and the edgeguard requires correct spacing.

Cape's hitboxes are pretty big, but I don't think that they're unreasonable. Especially since they're active for only three frames.

Spoiler

Counter play is contingent upon each character, but yeah, sweet spotting is usually the way to go.

Spoiler

Dash Attack is a long lasting hitbox and that's fine, but it needs like 5 more frames before IASA. For its great trajectory pop up you can follow up on it way too easily, especially since it can beat spot dodges.

Between the last active hitbox and Mario's FAF there are about 13 frames. Try shield grabbing or rolling past the attack instead of spot dodging.

His SJP is stupid. 7 frames of invincibility that cover half of the distance, leading into the craziest sweetspot grab box in the game, barring Luigi's Missile. Like, just increase the vertical distance and make the grab box actually part of the character and not a "easy free sweetspot for you" halo.

I'm not going to argue with this. I think that Mario has a very good recovery that is pretty difficult to exploit.

His smashes are crazy fast and powerful. I don't know if people realize this or are hiding behind "but range" but when a frame 3 (I'm pretty sure) Dsmash can kill a mid weight at 80%, with like lots of his smashes very little commitment, you've got a dangerous setup.

His forward smash is decently strong and fast, I'll give you that. But it doesn't make it completely safe to just throw out. Mixing in something like a pivot fsmash to catch a sloppy approach may be a nice mix up option, but it's certainly not spammable.

Mario's down smash is very weak and its speed matches its strength. It is active on frame 5 and has very low KB scaling. Check the doc in my signature and you can see how it matches up to other smash attacks in terms of raw power. It's certainly not killing any midweights at 80% unless they DI terribly.

I don't know why he's always like B tier on the lists posted here. H was considered top 10 in 3.02 like universally and his nerfs since then have been chump change compared to the overhauls Lucas and Diddy and Mewtwo got. I consider him a top 10 character.

People always quote him as a Jack of all trades, and while he may be master of none he's pretty darn good at most.

Edit: the final CT 3.02 tier list has him at fifth

Edit: forgot his down air. Move is crazy. Hitboxes have been decreased in size since 3.02 and multiplier normalized, but it's still so good.

Don't cite CT tier list as a reputable source.

The Mario match up becomes a lot more simple if you do two things:
1.) SDI and properly DI his combos.
2.) Respect his weight, ability to be comboed, and options out of CC.

First, SDI. This is huge in this match up. To put it in perspective, if I don't SDI any follow ups out of down throw at 0%, I'm hit for about 50%+. If I take the down throw and SDI the up smash which he usually follows up with, I can jump out and there are no follow ups. If you find yourself caught in a string of up air, you can DI down and away to avoid more follow ups. If he catches you with down air, I personally SDI up and out (the way he is facing), and I'll get out after a few hits.
Here are a few examples of how SDI helps:

Spoiler

Next, respecting his weight, ability to be comboed, and options out of CC.

Simply put, when you're comboing Samus, do you extend your combos as much as possible? No, she's too heavy/floaty. She's going to break out and nair you for trying. Mario is in a similar boat, albeit less extreme. You need to get your hits, get out, and reset the situation. Don't try and push a huge combo against him because it isn't going to work. Alternatively, instead of comboing for damage, combo for positioning. If you're Marth, put him above you where he has a difficult time coming down. As Ness, I like to put him off stage. You may not kill him directly, but you'll gain stage positioning.

He has good CC options like dtilt and down smash. Respect that, bait an option, and grab. It's all very simple.

I play this match up a lot. I think that Mario is a really solid character despite the counter play to him. But I don't think he's anything more than a low high tier/high mid tier.

 

[Kipcom]

Again, why does nobody mention fair for Yoshi???

Because it's decent. It's nothing amazing, really.

It seems really good until you realize it has like 18 frames of startup and it's a relatively predictable attack to see coming. It's a decent edgeguard, but then again it's also a meteor, so it's not like you can't just meteor cancel it.

It's got some applications for sure, but I'm not sure what you find to be so great about it (Other than the insane amount of hitstun it puts people in, but there's plenty of other aerials like that too so it's not like I'm going to complain).

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Again, why does nobody mention fair for Yoshi???

I keep wondering why you keep mentioning it. It's not all that.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Arguing your points with people who seriously disagree with you is like way more useful than people who already agree with you.

I 100% agree with you in that matter.
But I can't argue with a mob that rather form a hugbox than see their game and discussion about the game improve. It's a waste of my time if they refuse to at least understand my point.

None of us are claiming "Oh fox wins neutral on paper, its a 90:10 MU." We're saying Fox has better tools than most of the cast in nearly every situation, and even though he can afford to make less mistakes, there are far less opportunities for him to be forced to take a guess that would lead to a mistake.

"It's not like I'm johning, I'm more like not NOT johning."

You talk like the character automatically makes the decision making of players better.
You are not very smart and I wish you didn't participate in discussions like this lol

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I 100% agree with you in that matter.
But I can't argue with a mob that rather form a hugbox than see their game and discussion about the game improve. It's a waste of my time if they refuse to at least understand my point.

remember, for every 1 person who vocally disagrees without thinking there are 100 readers who will think without vocally contributing. The people who argue with you are not the demographic you're looking to reach. This thread will be here for years to come and many will get a chance to read what you say. Better to change their minds if not ours.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Cape's hitboxes are pretty big, but I don't think that they're unreasonable. Especially since they're active for only three frames.

Ehhh... Looking at it, those two outer hitboxes actually do bother me a bit. For characters with generous ledge grab boxes (including Mario, coincidentally) it may not be a big deal, but that's not always the case.

Spoiler

Not a lot of room for error there.

I'd also argue that the hitboxes are somewhat unintuitive. Why does a cape magically hit below Mario's feet? I'd be okay with moving the outer hitboxes in and/or shrinking them while pushing the middle hitbox outwards slightly to better match the position of the cape, but to be honest I'm not sure those outer hitboxes even need to exist in the first place.

 

[MTL Kyle]

remember, for every 1 person who vocally disagrees without thinking there are 100 readers who will think without vocally contributing. The people who argue with you are not the demographic you're looking to reach.

People that are not vocal are not contributing much.
A lot of the changes that happened in the game happened because vocal people asked for them.

If you are silent and you agree with me, you are not helping much.

IMO

Ehhh... Looking at it, those two outer hitboxes actually do bother me a bit. For characters with generous ledge grab boxes (including Mario, coincidentally) it may not be a big deal, but that's not always the case.


Not a lot of room for error there.

I'd also argue that the hitboxes are somewhat unintuitive. Why does a cape magically hit below Mario's feet? I'd be okay with moving the outer hitboxes in and/or shrinking them while pushing the middle hitbox outwards slightly to better match the position of the cape, but to be honest I'm not sure those outer hitboxes even need to exist in the first place.

Are we seriously going down this whole "why aren't hitboxes extremely precise" ?
A lot in the game would change if you add this precedent and I don't think you or the devs are ready for this lol

 

[Tomaster]

I think Mario is fine but I wouldn't be opposed to a fireball damage nerf.. It should be used for covering approaches/gimping recoveries, not for spamming in neutral.. If the damage is reduced there would be less of an incentive to spam them, and more to use them in strategic ways to create opportunities or edgeguard.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

People that are not vocal are not contributing much.
A lot of the changes that happened in the game happened because vocal people asked for them.

If you are silent and you agree with me, you are not helping much.

IMO

Some people are too new to feel like their thoughts would be taken seriously (which is true, new dissenting opinions aren't taken very well). Some people won't see this thread till later. Some people are simply getting their information from us, and so if you say nothing then they will be condemned to thinking Fox is best in the game (and no one wants that). Sure you aren't getting anything from these people, but is that necessary? do you only help people who help you first?

Look getting into the nitty gritty of what everyone deserves isn't what I'm trying to do here. All I'm saying is making a big huge post about how big a waste of time it is to post is a big waste of time.

I think Mario is fine but I wouldn't be opposed to a fireball damage nerf.. It should be used for covering approaches/gimping recoveries, not for spamming in neutral.. If the damage is reduced there would be less of an incentive to spam them, and more to use them in strategic ways to create opportunities or edgeguard.

high damage fireballs force enemies to approach mario since the cost of waiting it out is quite high. Having a character that forces the opponent to approach them instead of everyone being rushdown is fine with me. I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that you'd be giving up a potent attribute by giving the enemy less reason to approach.

 

[Tomaster]

you'd be giving up a potent attribute by giving the enemy less reason to approach.

Well the enemy is still going to have to approach because they can't just stand in place avoiding fireballs or power shielding them forever. It just won't be as effective as a way to rack up damage if ur opponent gets hit by some of them... I guess it would still be spammable but it wouldn't be like "im gonna stand here and get free damage on you if you get hit by any of my projectiles". It would be a way to make your opponent react so you can punish it.

 

[Kneato]

People that are not vocal are not contributing much.
A lot of the changes that happened in the game happened because vocal people asked for them.

If you are silent and you agree with me, you are not helping much.

IMO

Are we seriously going down this whole "why aren't hitboxes extremely precise" ?
A lot in the game would change if you add this precedent and I don't think you or the devs are ready for this lol

Yo Kyle. Yea people don't agree with your ideas, but that's not why you get such a backlash from people. You get it because you are an ass.

A board isn't a "hugbox" just because they don't call each other idiots when they don't agree on something.

Explain your reasoning for your ideas and arguments. If there is sense and logic behind them, it will ring true for people. For those that disagree, they will tell you why they think you are wrong, and you reply in kind, either with further defense of your idea, or you admit your idea wasn't sound. This is how a discussion goes and ideas are tested.

EDIT: Btw there's no such thing as a free lunch :^)

 

[Boiko]

Ehhh... Looking at it, those two outer hitboxes actually do bother me a bit. For characters with generous ledge grab boxes (including Mario, coincidentally) it may not be a big deal, but that's not always the case.

Spoiler

Not a lot of room for error there.

I'd also argue that the hitboxes are somewhat unintuitive. Why does a cape magically hit below Mario's feet? I'd be okay with moving the outer hitboxes in and/or shrinking them while pushing the middle hitbox outwards slightly to better match the position of the cape, but to be honest I'm not sure those outer hitboxes even need to exist in the first place.

To be fair, what's the room for error against other ledge guarding tactics? What space does Fox's shine cover when he's refreshing invincibility? Or ZSS' down smash? PK Kids forward tilts, etc.? They may not outright kill you like cape, but I think it's a matter of people having to recover smarter. Cape is active for 3 frames and has reasonable cool down. Bait it and get around it like you would anything else.

 

[Soft Serve]

"It's not like I'm johning, I'm more like not NOT johning."

You talk like the character automatically makes the decision making of players better.
You are not very smart and I wish you didn't participate in discussions like this lol

I didn't say that at all, and if that's what you're getting from my post then you shouldn't be someone insulting people's intelligence.

Maybe instead of just trolling the thread and calling everyone an idiot, you'd support what you're trying to say.

 

[Life]

Some people are too new to feel like their thoughts would be taken seriously (which is true, new dissenting opinions aren't taken very well).

If anyone's lurking who feels this way, feel free to speak up. Think of it as a learning experience; even if you're hilariously wrong, as long as you're polite, we won't embarrass you. (Much.)

 

[Squiss]

I mean you cant really treat the cape like any other ledge options, because it functions slightly differently. Since he can use it in the air as well, i'd compare it more to shine than tilts and smashes. My friend who mains mario, seems to just use it by ear, meaning he hears the sound of a recovery move, he capes. Now there is tons of counter play, but marios options seem to overpower certain characters by the ledge. Recover high? Did he miss the cape? Expect him to throw you off the stage. Try to sweet spot the ledge/recover low? He can just run off cape. Airdodge as a mixup recovery? He can cape that too. Saved your jump and go for a double jump? He can cape the double jump to put you in a bad situation. As good of an option as it is, it still has it faults, mix-ups are key to beating it as sometimes you can get back to the stage for free. I'm usually really salty about marios cape, but honestly it's okay, at least imo, for some characters to have diverse, interesting, and powerful options that make the matchup unique.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Captain Falcon needs serious nerfs.

 

[Oracle]

mario is amazing. yall need to remember that its OK to have good characters

 

[Narelex]

mario is amazing. yall need to remember that its OK to have good characters

Honestly the issue is that it feels like certain characters are missing important things in their kits. We should be helping the handicapped not trying to cripple the good characters.

 

[Jonyc128]

Ehhh... Looking at it, those two outer hitboxes actually do bother me a bit. For characters with generous ledge grab boxes (including Mario, coincidentally) it may not be a big deal, but that's not always the case.

Spoiler

Not a lot of room for error there.

I'd also argue that the hitboxes are somewhat unintuitive. Why does a cape magically hit below Mario's feet? I'd be okay with moving the outer hitboxes in and/or shrinking them while pushing the middle hitbox outwards slightly to better match the position of the cape, but to be honest I'm not sure those outer hitboxes even need to exist in the first place.

Aren't the reflect hitboxes out earlier than the actual damaging hitboxes? I know it was like that in melee, so did the PMDT change that?

 

[KinGly]

If anyone's lurking who feels this way, feel free to speak up. Think of it as a learning experience; even if you're hilariously wrong, as long as you're polite, we won't embarrass you. (Much.)

Hey look that's me. I try to pop in every now and then more with questions when there's no (good) discussion than actual statements. Honestly there's to much knowledge being thrown around to not lurk on this sub.

I think Mario's fine. He's definitely good but his play and counter play are pretty simple, which makes it a game of "do this when x" and "don't do y" imo. Basically means the matchup/character is easy to learn so he needs to be compensated by being better overall cause of the way Project M works if that makes sense. Like, no one knows the charizard matchup for the most part, but Zard players still know their character. So charizard players can get away with more stuff in tourney than Mario can as long as their opponents don't know the matchup. allowing a charizard to do as well as Mario.

Don't know if that made sense. Just a thought I had.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Yo Kyle. Yea people don't agree with your ideas, but that's not why you get such a backlash from people. You get it because you are an ***.

I don't mind the backlash (I kinda like it because it crumbles the pseudo intellectual feel that forum discussions have).
This statement couldn't be more true though :^)

A board isn't a "hugbox" just because they don't call each other idiots when they don't agree on something.

Exactly. They are a hugbox because uninformed people hug other uninformed people until their lies become the truth.

If there is sense and logic behind them, it will ring true for people.

Except true people are not the ones in charge to mold the game. Sorry not sorry~~~~

This is how a discussion goes and ideas are tested.

You are implying I'm having a discussion. I sincerely feel I'm on a monologue mode. The only person that I had a reasaonble conversation here was Boiko (?)
Problem in discussing with pseudo intellectual people is that they will always want ~objective~ data, when a lot of things in the game are not necessarily objective. It goes back to high school when you are discussing with your 16yo friends if you rather have a lengthy or girthy ****.

And that's not the kind of discussion that goes forward.

EDIT: Btw there's no such thing as a free lunch :^)

I love you too Joseph.

Maybe instead of just trolling the thread and calling everyone an idiot, you'd support what you're trying to say.

I'm not trolling the thread, and if that's what you are getting, it's ok.
I will wait until you turn 18 so we can discuss.

mario is amazing. yall need to remember that its OK to have good characters

Explain what's your definition of good/general definition of good so more people don't twist your words (like I was about to do lmao)

 

[TheGravyTrain]

frankxthexbunny Kipcom

Yoshi's fair has 4 things going for it. It does 17%, it combos incredibly well (meteor stuff), beats crouch cancel, and is safe on shield. Its only drawback is its 15 frames of startup. So that damage, on that good of a combo move, equals absurd damage. A fair, full hop fair to tech chase on a platform into downsmash. Say they were at 80, now they are at 130 and off stage... Meteors can't be crouch canceled as it doesn't provide lift at non-knockbdown percents (oh, and asdi down+tech wouldn't do too much either). It is -2 on shield, that goes without saying.

As for its drawback, I think it can be mitigated in importance. In my mind, I see 2 important neutral options. First is the dash dance, with wavedashes, spaced dtilts, double jump lands, and maybe even anti air up tilts (idk on that one). Essentially, grounded neutral. The other is an air style. Using low djc aerials (essentially nair as its the only quick + forward facing one), as well as more full hop into djc fair/nair/turnaround bair, falling neutral b for shield happy opponents, maybe a cross up dair if they get under you. You can also retreat to platforms with these. This style (more appropriately, set of tools) could be classified as a more Ripple based style (or drawing similarities to Ness, I remember when Boiko first started posting here, this style was what made Ness decent, contrary to what everyone else thought). In that second style, 15 frames of startup isn't too bad since you could be retreating with an aerial, going to a platform, falling with a grab, putting out lasting hitboxes like nair, or coming aggressively at them with a fair. Its not perfect, it should be used sparingly (also dependant on the opposing character and opponent's habits). But that's just neutral. It is still amazing in punishes to warrant Yoshi not being bottom 10. I'm not gonna pretend Yoshi is super slept on and he should be top 10. I get it, I appreciate some under appreciated characters (Squirtle says hi), you can't go making claims like Yoshi is top 10. I just think tools like dtilt (the hurtboxes are completely normal btw) and fair make Yoshi better than bottom 10, as well as other things like great punish game without being punished too hard in return.

 

[Life]

Fun fact: Yoshi can land fair to fully charged usmash on Wolf.

 

[InfinityCollision]

To be fair, what's the room for error against other ledge guarding tactics? What space does Fox's shine cover when he's refreshing invincibility? Or ZSS' down smash? PK Kids forward tilts, etc.? They may not outright kill you like cape, but I think it's a matter of people having to recover smarter. Cape is active for 3 frames and has reasonable cool down. Bait it and get around it like you would anything else.

There's not much baiting involved here. Mewtwo grabs ledge 14 frames after he reappears when recovering low. Mario can cape poor sweetspot attempts on reaction to Teleport's startup.

ZSS' dsmash barely dips below ground level and is slow, though the reward on a confirm is obviously great. Ness and Lucas' ftilts hit slightly lower, but still not as low as the cape. Here's Lucas' angled ftilt:

Spoiler

That's still far less coverage than the cape, and as you noted cape is the one that is guaranteed to kill outright.

No argument from me re: shine though. Lack of a hitbox on teleport definitely opens it up to the possibility of gimps off the ledge if I have to come in low. Other recoveries with tight sweetspots may have hitboxes that help mitigate these moves. The best counterplay against any of them is of course to not put oneself in that situation to begin with, and thankfully that's usually possible with Mewtwo's recovery.