Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

Not too positive on this, but I'm pretty sure fair to full hop, double jump down b is a thing on spacies...

 

[Life]

TBH5 results via /r/smashbros:

1st - Plup

2nd - Bobby Frizz

3rd - DeliciousOctorok

4th - VwS Professor Pro

Respectively, MK/Samus, Diddy/Falco/Falcon(?), Ness, Snake if I'm not mistaken. Finals was supposedly at like 5AM.

Worth discussion?

 

[The Baron]

TBH5 results via /r/smashbros:

1st - Plup

2nd - Bobby Frizz

3rd - DeliciousOctorok

4th - VwS Professor Pro

Respectively, MK/Samus, Diddy/Falco/Falcon(?), Ness, Snake if I'm not mistaken. Finals was supposedly at like 5AM.

Worth discussion?

I'm sure naralexx is cheering because meta and we may get to play another round of "here's Ness results but don't worry he's still trash" but otherwise not really. Never heard of bobby friz before though so that's neat if not nifty.


Edit: also no fox's but I don't know what top 8 is but to be sure, there will be callouts on the anti fox circlejerk in like, 5 minutes or some **** if we follow the trends of previous tournaments.

 

[1FD]

if it's not bowser then I cannot play slow characters
wtf do you do against wolf
I don't understand how I ever lose to slow characters as wolf they're just so slow I shouldn't be getting hit
ggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrr
link? NOPE ganon? NOPE
Bowser is my bae and has the best jab of all time by everyone else slow is lame

 

[MLGF]

Everyone says their main is underrated so I'm taking all this ness junk with a grain of salt

I'm not seeing ness being bad at this point, theory crafting is nice, but results are more important.

 

[Spralwers]

bobby frizz used fox in bracket.

I think ness is kind of similar to dk, in the sense that he is one of the worst characters, BUT, being one of the worst characters isn't necessarily a bad thing.

And also I don't think the tourney is worth much discussion. It was played very late and I think it showed in the gameplay of several players.

 

[Frost | Odds]

theory crafting is nice, but results are more important.

To an extent. That said, you also have to control for the amount of players working on improving a given character's meta. Ness in particular has always been relatively popular, and has a relatively large number of high level players who would do well at nationals regardless of their character choice. This doesn't necessarily negate the results, but it does provide them with context.

 

[Boiko]

I don't think this tournament was particularly stacked. I'm not surprised to see Prof lose to Octo since the last time I played Prof, he played the match up somewhat poorly.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Everyone says their main is underrated so I'm taking all this ness junk with a grain of salt

I'm not seeing ness being bad at this point, theory crafting is nice, but results are more important.

We also had Boiko win a nebulous that had many notable players such as malachi, frozen, phresh, DVD, etc. No I don't think, based on results, he's that bad. I think his grab range could use a buff and his recovery should be improved, though

Good stuff at the tourny though, Boiko

 

[Boiko]

Said it before, I'll say it again. Ness has the tools in his kit, they just need a bit of fine tuning in certain areas and he'll be solid.

 

[Dakpo]

that's even objectively untrue because he beat Lunchables and Oracle (twice) in the same tournament and those are both players who have experience against (and have defeated) Dakpo and SB's G&W on the reg

I love how much you know about our scene
Lunchables wrecks me pretty often but oracle lol....
I haven't lost to oracle since 3.02 Lucas LMAO
having oracle in GFs is every GnW's dream and every space animal's nightmare.... you should probably get your facts straight

PS: Strong bad quit GnW like over half a year ago

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah I quit G&W like before Aftershock even.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

You know what I just realized? I was talking about how amazing Yoshi's fair is and then I realized that Fox's up air does the same (or more?) amount of damage and combos almost as well (but kills).

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's a silly comparison, the two of the operate completely differently. Both in terms of the move and in terms of the characters.

 

[Stromp]

Said it before, I'll say it again. Ness has the tools in his kit, they just need a bit of fine tuning in certain areas and he'll be solid.

Do you have anything in particular in mind?

 

[MTL Kyle]

Everyone says their main is underrated so I'm taking all this ness junk with a grain of salt

I'm not seeing ness being bad at this point, theory crafting is nice, but results are more important.

Ness is fine. Some people don't wanna learn how to play the game and want 3.02 Ness back, so they can 50/50 their way up the bracket

Said it before, I'll say it again. Ness has the tools in his kit, they just need a bit of fine tuning in certain areas and he'll be solid.

Tuning being ?
I would actually rework his recovery. I think it's either on or off for him and it doesn't feel satisfying to use it at all.

You know what I just realized? I was talking about how amazing Yoshi's fair is and then I realized that Fox's up air does the same (or more?) amount of damage and combos almost as well (but kills).

wot.

Explain.
I feel we are going to have a good laugh at this.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Captain Falcon needs serious nerfs.

Have you played the falcon match up as bowser? Shoot i think alot of characters have no options against his cross ups, but bowser its just like "what do i do to deal with this speed?"

Also nothing is wrong with marios cape besides the animation is not out as long as his actual reflect box.

Also yoshis fair is not op or that good even lol stop saying that it is i dont think anyone has agreed with you yet.

Also as bowser i have not really had a problem with wolf, I can say my main problems are character with insane movement (falcon and fox Luigi wave dash and lands) and characters that that have hard hitting auto combos (falcon's anything into knee, luigi tornado into up B and link down throw into up b and Maybe jiggly puff rest from up air or tilt) and projectile crazy characters (diddy, link, tink) or characters with nasty tech chase set up (his techs are still a little slow) into edge guards (MK, ganon Maybe I dont really know)


Is there something bowser can do against any of those?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Have you played the falcon match up as bowser? Shoot i think alot of characters have no options against his cross ups, but bowser its just like "what do i do to deal with this speed?"

Also nothing is wrong with marios cape besides the animation is not out as long as his actual reflect box.

Also yoshis fair is not op or that good even lol stop saying that it is i dont think anyone has agreed with you yet.

Also as bowser i have not really had a problem with wolf, I can say my main problems are character with insane movement (falcon and fox Luigi wave dash and lands) and characters that that have hard hitting auto combos (falcon's anything into knee, luigi tornado into up B and link down throw into up b and Maybe jiggly puff rest from up air or tilt) and projectile crazy characters (diddy, link, tink) or characters with nasty tech chase set up (his techs are still a little slow) into edge guards (MK, ganon Maybe I dont really know)


Is there something bowser can do against any of those?

Bowser can die... that is something. But no noobtube dash attack used to be really helpful on the projectile spammers. And falcon was generally a bad matchup to begin with since you have to pin him to the edge of the stage and stuff his retreat/approach. Honestly got no idea how a bowser approaches those matchups this patch since the best one I know lives so far away.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser can die... that is something. But no noobtube dash attack was really helpful on the projectile spammers. And falcon was generally a bad matchup to begin with since you have to pin him to the edge of the stage and stuff his retreat/approach. Honestly got no idea how a bowser approaches those matchups this patch since the best one I know lives so far away.

That dash attack was nerfed and only goes through weak projectiles until 40% (except ivy, i think i can always armour through that weak thing) anyways though, does anyone else thinks its an issue when a character has 0 options unless the opponent messes up? I can beat a bad falcon who doesnt know the match up, but against a good one who knows the match up i really cant do anything of value (same way against link, tink, fox, diddy, probably rob although i never had the match up)

Also What exactly is game and watches bucket modifiers? Never really got a clean answer on that.

EDIT

Actually after thinking, can we actually talk about and maybe make a MU spread for bowser? I feel like theres a major issue in his MU spread in the fact that he has like 2 winning match ups (maybe)

 

[FreeGamer]

It says Oil Panic's multiplier is 2.8x in Brawl, not sure if that's the same in PM. *shrug*

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm actually still not convinced that Falcon is among Bowser's worst matchups. He's probably the single easiest character for Bowser to 0-death because of his fastfalling, bad tech roll, and poor recovery. Yeah, you play neutral at quite a disadvantage, but it's one of very few matchups where you can actually still open up a significant punish via Dash Attack - which is a way bigger deal than you seem to be giving it credit for, T tasteless gentleman .

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'm actually still not convinced that Falcon is among Bowser's worst matchups. He's probably the single easiest character for Bowser to 0-death because of his fastfalling, bad tech roll, and poor recovery. Yeah, you play neutral at quite a disadvantage, but it's one of very few matchups where you can actually still open up a significant punish via Dash Attack - which is a way bigger deal than you seem to be giving it credit for, T tasteless gentleman .

Edit, i missread this originally.

So how do you deal with the cross up nairs and the knees into grabs?

Or the grabs into knees?

Or the stomps into knees?

or the falcon running circles around you until you whiff a move?

Can you link a match of a GOOD falcon vs a bowser where bowser wins? I very rarely see a bowser win against falcon unless the falcon was awful.

 

[Life]

How does Bowser's crouch do against Falcon nair?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

How does Bowser's crouch do against Falcon nair?

At low percents he armours through it but at higher percents you flinch. But i feel like you almost always eat both nairs before you up B punish (which just is not worth it)

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

At low percents he armours through it but at higher percents you flinch. But i feel like you almost always eat both nairs before you up B punish (which just is not worth it)

Next memo I get where bones plays fatality, I will let you know. Though can't see that happening anytime before tipped off 11, since they stay like 6 hours apart.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Next memo I get where bones plays fatality, I will let you know. Though can't see that happening anytime before tipped off 11, since they stay like 6 hours apart.

I honestly just am tired of losing to weird combos that end in knee to that character. If his knee was not crazy strong and comboed from everything he does i swear this match up would be much more reasonable.

 

[Narelex]

I honestly just am tired of losing to weird combos that end in knee to that character. If his knee was not crazy strong and comboed from everything he does i swear this match up would be much more reasonable.

Probably doesn't help Bowser doesn't have the best vertical recovery and the Knee sends at an extremely shallow angle. So even if it doesn't straight up kill you you're usually too low to make it back.

 

[FreeGamer]

I honestly just am tired of losing to weird combos that end in knee to that character. If his knee was not crazy strong and comboed from everything he does i swear this match up would be much more reasonable.

Such is the life of fatties and floaties.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Probably doesn't help Bowser doesn't have the best vertical recovery and the Knee sends at an extremely shallow angle. So even if it doesn't straight up kill you you're usually too low to make it back.

Its more like every grab = a knee
Every stomp = a knee
every raptor boost = a knee (which is balanced)
Cross up nairs are hard to punish unless you eat 22% also to deal like 13% damage in the form of a jumping nair out of shield or up B with no possible follow up because bowser is laggy.

Also i notice that for the most part, S tiers were in the top five or very complimentary dual mains and sadly 0 bowsers.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Not to rain on the "**** Falcon" parade, but I'm pretty sure throw->knee isn't a thing on Bowser. Don't have access to my Wii right now so I'm stuck doing this with Dolphin's crappy frame advance, but even with that taken into account I don't think it's guaranteed at all.

 

[Spralwers]

Edit, i missread this originally.

So how do you deal with the cross up nairs and the knees into grabs?

Or the grabs into knees?

Or the stomps into knees?

or the falcon running circles around you until you whiff a move?

Can you link a match of a GOOD falcon vs a bowser where bowser wins? I very rarely see a bowser win against falcon unless the falcon was awful.

I'll preface this by saying he doesn't think Falcon is one of Bowser's worst MUs. Not necessarily that Bowser is even/good vs Falcon, just that other characters body Bowser harder than Falcon does. Just because Bowser doesn't have good solutions to these bnb Falcon options doesn't mean other characters don't have even stronger options vs Bowser.

In MUs like these where you're at an awful speed disadvantage, you have to go for hard reads. It's not like playing the MU as Marth, Toon Link, or Fox where you can stuff approaches on reaction. If you know Falcon is going to go for any aerial, you have to read it ahead of time and stuff it with something like sh/fh insta fair. If you know Falcon is gonna go in for the DD grab, you have to halt his momentum with something. Idk Bowser that well, maybe ftilt, jab, dtilt, dash attack, retreating fair/bair? For cross up nair, if you want a reactionary based counter, you might be able to shield first hit nair, then up B OoS before the second hit comes out or trade with it. I know DK can stuff second hit nair this way but I'm not sure if Bowser's comes out quick enough for that. If Falcon runs in circles around you waiting for you to whiff, yeah that's a bad situation to deal with, but he has to throw out a hitbox at some point otherwise you take stage from him and pin him down.

For knee->grab (I'm assuming on your shield?) it's a mixup, cuz latest possible knee is 0 on shield. If you know he'll grab, up B OoS. But if he knows you'll up B, he can DD away or interrupt you with jab. If you know he'll DD, WD OoS is maybe your quickest, safest option. If you know he'll jab, you stay in shield and then punish with up B OoS. So on so forth. Shield mix ups from an aerial that's good on shield are actually somewhat common in this game (spacie nairs/dairs, Mario nair/fair, Ganon fair, Sheik fair, etc) so it's worth leveling up this specific aspect of your counter-play, especially as a Bowser main because it'll probably happen to you often lol

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yeah, it was a dumb comparison. It just popped into my head.

But T tasteless gentleman
Nice discussion there. "Also yoshis fair is not op or that good even lol stop saying that it is" isn't even an argument, sooooo.
"i dont think anyone has agreed with you yet." And that is relevant how? The number of people who think one argument is right or the other is wrong has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the claim. If you want to tell me why you think it isn't good, then maybe something can come from this. But right now all thats been said is (me) "I think fair is good", (them) "why do you keep bringing it up", (me) "Its good for a, b, c, d. Only drawback of x. I think you can overcome its drawback." (you) "Nobody else thinks its good, your wrong". Obvious strawman (not the point though), but you get the idea. Nobody has really contested any of my arguments. So if you want to back up that claim of yours, that would be great.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I haven't played vs a good Falcon, especially not with Bowser, but it seems like if he is crossing you up with stuff in neutral he is giving up his biggest advantage: never having to interact with you at all.

 

[Zigludo]

Not to rain on the "**** Falcon" parade, but I'm pretty sure throw->knee isn't a thing on Bowser. Don't have access to my Wii right now so I'm stuck doing this with Dolphin's crappy frame advance, but even with that taken into account I don't think it's guaranteed at all.

uthrow knee starts being a true combo with frame perfect execution (which is achievable with cfalc uthrow because it's non weight-dependent) around 80% and has like five frames' worth of margin of error around 105%. in practice the string begins to be guaranteed much earlier and continues significantly later, since Bowser's double jump won't actually get him out of the way of the knee and he needs to airdodge instead, which you can't do from tumble. you could wiggle out>airdodge but that takes at least two frames in a TAS, afaik.

nair is basically unusable for getting out of uthrow knee too. frame 5 "combo breaker" that doesn't escape KO moves... lol

 

[MrLul]

is gnw still cancer to u guys

 

[MLGF]

He's cancer until the next PM major.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

TBH5 doesn't count

Meta Knight is a non malignant tumor (with a sword)

 

[DrinkingFood]

uthrow knee starts being a true combo with frame perfect execution (which is achievable with cfalc uthrow because it's non weight-dependent) around 80% and has like five frames' worth of margin of error around 105%. in practice the string begins to be guaranteed much earlier and continues significantly later, since Bowser's double jump won't actually get him out of the way of the knee and he needs to airdodge instead, which you can't do from tumble. you could wiggle out>airdodge but that takes at least two frames in a TAS, afaik.

nair is basically unusable for getting out of uthrow knee too. frame 5 "combo breaker" that doesn't escape KO moves... lol

airdodge probably doesn't get him out any faster than jump, considering it's not invul until frame 4

 

[Zigludo]

airdodge probably doesn't get him out any faster than jump, considering it's not invul until frame 4

lol for some reason I thought they were frame 2. yeah it's really really easy to land either way on Bowser

imo you could give his nair heavy armor frame1 and he'd still be one of the easier characters to punish especially for Falcon

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Yeah, it was a dumb comparison. It just popped into my head.

But T tasteless gentleman
Nice discussion there. "Also yoshis fair is not op or that good even lol stop saying that it is" isn't even an argument, sooooo.
"i dont think anyone has agreed with you yet." And that is relevant how? The number of people who think one argument is right or the other is wrong has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the claim. If you want to tell me why you think it isn't good, then maybe something can come from this. But right now all thats been said is (me) "I think fair is good", (them) "why do you keep bringing it up", (me) "Its good for a, b, c, d. Only drawback of x. I think you can overcome its drawback." (you) "Nobody else thinks its good, your wrong". Obvious strawman (not the point though), but you get the idea. Nobody has really contested any of my arguments. So if you want to back up that claim of yours, that would be great.

Fine, Its a slow, easy to dodge, meteor with terrible lag at the end. There its proven bad in every way except maybe on a grounded opponent... oh wait they can see it from a mile away? Can we drop the yoshi fair discussion now? Also i feel like no one contested because there are more interesting things to talk about

I haven't played vs a good Falcon, especially not with Bowser, but it seems like if he is crossing you up with stuff in neutral he is giving up his biggest advantage: never having to interact with you at all.

Trust me you dont want falcon interacting with you. The nair cross ups are really hard to punish because falcons air speed and momentum has him out of your range before you are even out of hit stun unless they screw up. The only option you have is up b out of shield which a good falcon would punish with something that ends in a knee. And i agree that there are way worse match ups (Which is scary) but falcon is still a 70-30 or 80-20