Tier List Speculation

[Keman]

Can you link a match of a GOOD falcon vs a bowser where bowser wins? I very rarely see a bowser win against falcon unless the falcon was awful.

I am not sure how good people consider Nox "Falcon Punched Rolex" Noxy, but this vid is pretty recent and is against the best bowser so there might be a little skill gap though it is at least something.

 

[Keman]

what is this double posting >.> I don't do that

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I am not sure how good people consider Nox "Falcon Punched Rolex" Noxy, but this vid is pretty recent and is against the best bowser so there might be a little skill gap though it is at least something.

Watched it, first 2 stocks falcon was doing the right things, then he started doing stupid amount of raptor boosts and kicks which all got punished. Falcon got punished for the missed L cancels. Then once bowser reached 130% (awkward up throw stops working into knee but bowser should not live past 80% against falcon or it spells trouble) FS took all control and falcon paniced. Also i didnt know dino was a legal starter, but kudos to FS taking him there. Then the second game, falcon stopped respecting up b and command grab. Basically a big skill gap because once FS adjusted and applied pressure the falcon choked and drowned.

Ruling:
The skill gap needed a bridge the size of heaven and earth. Nothing taken from FS though, He did super well with movement and punishing the MISSED L cancels from the falcon. But that falcon was not sticking to what worked. If falcon stayed doing air attacks and grabs he would have won but instead he started doing raptor boost, kicks, gentleman jabs, ect. But like You said, the best bowser in your region against a falcon player. I'm the only bowser player in my region and i can beat alot of people based on them not knowing the match up, but i can beat above average people. It when the good players come around with the MU advantage AND MU knowledge is when i am tested (and often frustrated)

EDIT

But I will say this, FS chain grabbing falcon was delicious looking but that solidified that falcon didn't know the match up (you should know where to DI against bowser)

Have you ever tried grabbing the ledge after you Up B OOS or after you Up B in general? It helps eliminate the end lag tremendously, in fact I find it essentially in match-ups like that. Plus Bowser's ledge options under 100 aren't terrible, so getting back on stage safely isn't always a problem. It would definitely help you from getting knee'd.



I don't think Marth is a great match-up for Bowser. Marth's spike is super devastating and his edge guards on Bowser are pretty bread and butter. Also Bowser has a terrible time getting out of juggles, and Marth can easily put you in a position to be juggled. I feel I'm not playing the match-up right, but outside of Marth-ritis keeping us alive longer for some of our stocks I don't feel it's a 55-45 at worst. I'd say more along the lines of 60-40 definitely.

You just gave me an amazing idea...
But yes of course i go to the ledge but i never thought about it but im always trying to be the aggressor in the match up which is why i have trouble grabbing the ledge after an up B. So after thinking about it... what if i hung back near my ledge instead of approaching falcons ledge?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

double post -.-

 

[Keman]

the best bowser in your region against a falcon player.

I am not NY like those 2 (actually KY), I was just jabbing at the Bowsers insinuating you or odds or whoever wasn't the best (when really don't know, DB is just my personal fav)

double post -.-

I don't think the double posting is our fault, probably best to blame Strongbad or some other mod around here in these situations.

 

[CELTiiC]

You just gave me an amazing idea...
But yes of course i go to the ledge but i never thought about it but im always trying to be the aggressor in the match up which is why i have trouble grabbing the ledge after an up B. So after thinking about it... what if i hung back near my ledge instead of approaching falcons ledge?

Yeah, trying to be the aggressor in the Falcon / Bowser match-up as Bowser just calls for bad news. Falcon's dash dance is way too good and extremely difficult for Bowser to handle as is, let alone Bowser trying to offensively pressure that. You just have to play smart and defensive, and corner his options. Then when you get a chance to go in or if you get a Koopa Klaw or grab try to convert to an edge guard situation. It makes the match-up much, much easier.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I am not NY like those 2 (actually KY), I was just jabbing at the Bowsers insinuating you or odds or whoever wasn't the best (when really don't know, DB is just my personal fav)



I don't think the double posting is our fault, probably best to blame Strongbad or some other mod around here in these situations.

I double posted by accident lol.

And I am saying DarkBlue is definately up there as far as bowser mains go so him beating up on a falcon player is not uncommon if they dont know the match up or if there is a skill difference. I want to see something like odds or someone of that calibre against.... shoot i dont know any falcons... how about a good one who knows the match up.

And let me say it just so there is no confusion, i dont think i am better than odds or DB or anyone of that calibre BUT at the same time i never got lucky enough to cross paths with them to face them. (to be the man you have to beat the man.)

 

[Kneato]

I hate ontarios tier list, it makes my eyes bleed.
On 1 list i saw olimar, pit, and puff on bottom and bowser in mid and dk near the top and im spit my coffee all over my phone from reading it.

But on topic, lets all get together and make a tier list based on MU spreads? I'm game for that idea.

There are a few issues with trying to do that right now:
1: We need top level mains for each character to contribute to the conversation. Some characters have very few players who play them at top level. And even the ones with good representation can be hard to get a hold of and it takes a ton of time to get a consensus on matchups.

2: By the time a matchup spread is generally agreed on, PM gets updated and the old data is largely worthless.

Basically, a worthwhile tier list will not be possible until PM stops updating.

 

[pugwishbone17]

While we're on the subject of Yoshi (sort of), Scatz over on the Yoshi board made an excellent post that really analyzes why Yoshi currently struggles (pretty evident given the past few pages of home made tier lists). He goes super in depth on each problem and offers solutions that fixes the character, complete with his own custom build, without compromising good design.

 

[nimigoha]

For now I think it would be a better use of time to analyze the characters generally agreed to be more glaringly in need of tweaks to bring them up or down in viability (Olimar, Pit, Bowser, Yoshi, Fox, Wolf, are some in my opinion).

Where it's like general discussion about frame data and damage and even just bad/great moves and how we could change them.

Like I enjoy the tier list discussion but it's never really about tier lists directly, unless it's us just picking apart some noobish tier list for fun. It always turns into single character discussion and occasional matchup discussion anyway.

There's a fantastic post on /r/ssbpm right now about Yoshi, detailing problems with his hitboxes and small design changes (and potential fixes).

I mean if we want to just keep doing what we're doing, critiquing terrible tier lists and complaining about Fox without offering detailed and broken down solutions, like we've been doing for almost a thousand pages, then it'll keep happening.

But what really comes out of it? I think a big part of it is how much the PMDT monitor threads like this (and this thread specifically) when looking at changing characters.

Would they be more inclined to changing things after seeing 30 tier lists with Bowser in his own F tier, or after seeing 30 posts detailing Bowser's problems and reasonable changes that could fix him (QuickDraw KK for life)?

I don't know where I was going with this post but just something I've been thinking about after posting the Ontario tier lists.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

There are a few issues with trying to do that right now:
1: We need top level mains for each character to contribute to the conversation. Some characters have very few players who play them at top level. And even the ones with good representation can be hard to get a hold of and it takes a ton of time to get a consensus on matchups.

2: By the time a matchup spread is generally agreed on, PM gets updated and the old data is largely worthless.

Basically, a worthwhile tier list will not be possible until PM stops updating.

Right but just because a character is under represented doesnt mean they suck, they just are not as fun. But i had a problem with almost the whole tier list, if i pointed out flaws by the time i was done i would have a whole new list and i had no idea how you guys got the tier list you had. Take a look at MU spread next time for sure because pit should be High B maybe A because he has almost every tool needed to solo main... same with olimar... hes B tier only because of his recovery not F. And puff can be a monster if played right. C-B tier for her but for sure not F.

For now I think it would be a better use of time to analyze the characters generally agreed to be more glaringly in need of tweaks to bring them up or down in viability (Olimar, Pit, Bowser, Yoshi, Fox, Wolf, are some in my opinion).

Where it's like general discussion about frame data and damage and even just bad/great moves and how we could change them.

Like I enjoy the tier list discussion but it's never really about tier lists directly, unless it's us just picking apart some noobish tier list for fun. It always turns into single character discussion and occasional matchup discussion anyway.

There's a fantastic post on /r/ssbpm right now about Yoshi, detailing problems with his hitboxes and small design changes (and potential fixes).

I mean if we want to just keep doing what we're doing, critiquing terrible tier lists and complaining about Fox without offering detailed and broken down solutions, like we've been doing for almost a thousand pages, then it'll keep happening.

But what really comes out of it? I think a big part of it is how much the PMDT monitor threads like this (and this thread specifically) when looking at changing characters.

Would they be more inclined to changing things after seeing 30 tier lists with Bowser in his own F tier, or after seeing 30 posts detailing Bowser's problems and reasonable changes that could fix him (QuickDraw KK for life)?

I don't know where I was going with this post but just something I've been thinking about after posting the Ontario tier lists.

Okay lets try that, but PMDT has to notice the fox and wolf S tier and bowser F tier...I just feel like they dont know how to fix it without changing the character (but honestly on bowser, that may be good)

I can offer 10001 ways to fix/improve bowser but 0 on fox because... fox would be no longer melee fox if too many more big changes happened. Ya know what i mean? Also as for yoshi... anything less than a 3rd recovery just wont fix the issue with him i think... once again... going outside the realm of melee yoshi (who i think is better than this pm yoshi)

Wolf... i dont know what really makes wolf S tier? His reflector is not really a spike or has alot of stun on it... is it just his combo ability and his smash attack and weird lazer mechanics?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Can we make an error message for double posting that says "hey your about to double post" or something?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I hate ontarios tier list, it makes my eyes bleed.
On 1 list i saw olimar, pit, and puff on bottom and bowser in mid and dk near the top and im spit my coffee all over my phone from reading it.

But on topic, lets all get together and make a tier list based on MU spreads? I'm game for that idea.

I know this probably isn't what you meant, but that is in no way Ontario's tier list, just a tier list made by one player in Ontario.

Edit: Also, under represented characters aren't always "not as fun."
And about Wolf, he's got an extremely varied decision tree with a lot of options. Not only does he move around fast, but he also has superb shield pressure and the tools to extensively punish any character. It doesn't even really matter that his shine can be crouch cancelled because you can shine grab. A lot of the stuff he does is on reaction, so it can be hard to recognize stuff like when you need to shine grab vs. start aerial juggle or pillaring but it's possible with practice and a good read on your opponent.

 

[Keman]

shoot i dont know any falcons...man.)

I think Bluefalcon or Switch might be the best Falcons in that region not sure. Wonder if them and DB played much if ever. and for reference other good falcons would be DMG and well... I'm sure there are others(besides Melee players like leffen or Fuzzy)

To be on topic I will supply the greatest idea ever: have this thread start a donation fund that will fly the best mains of whatever matchup is being discussed out to one another to have them learn the matchup, play, and report back. I have some change on my dresser I could donate 80 cents or so, would go a long way!

 

[tasteless gentleman]

To fix Dk, have we ever thought about taking a page from brawl minus and giving DK a barrell spawn (like every 15-20 seconds)?

A projectile that makes sense and probably not too over powered but has actual use may help the Dk thats been stranded in D tier forever

 

[nimigoha]

Holy **** DK doesn't need a barrel, and D Tier is a bad representation of his abilities.

He has solid neutral options. He has awesome punish options. His recovery isn't great but it has several attributes that help him a lot if you use it wisely.

He's not a hopeless fatty like everyone thinks because he has next to 0 representation.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

The thing people have to realize is that bottom tier doesn't mean bad or don't play this character, (sans Bowser) but just not as good for possibly a few reasons. Also S tier isn't that far off from A +/- tier either. Maybe its me or people like to over exaggerate in here.

 

[Kneato]

Right but just because a character is under represented doesnt mean they suck, they just are not as fun. But i had a problem with almost the whole tier list, if i pointed out flaws by the time i was done i would have a whole new list and i had no idea how you guys got the tier list you had. Take a look at MU spread next time for sure because pit should be High B maybe A because he has almost every tool needed to solo main... same with olimar... hes B tier only because of his recovery not F. And puff can be a monster if played right. C-B tier for her but for sure not F.

What.

When I mentioned under represented characters I meant it was hard to find high level players who main them who could give valuable feedback about the matchup spread.

What tier list are you talking about that you "had no idea how you guys got the tier list you had"?

If you are talking about the one I posted a bunch of pages back, it was based purely on matchup spreads in the community matchup chart. And like I mentioned in my original post, that tier list means almost nothing because it is based on outdated data. Once we have the matchup chart reflect how characters do in the current patch, we could make a more accurate tier list, but it would mean nothing because the next patch would probably already be out by then.

Like I said, this is the problem and it won't be fixed until PM v.Gold

 

[CELTiiC]

Holy **** DK doesn't need a barrel, and D Tier is a bad representation of his abilities.

He has solid neutral options. He has awesome punish options. His recovery isn't great but it has several attributes that help him a lot if you use it wisely.

He's not a hopeless fatty like everyone thinks because he has next to 0 representation.

I do agree DK is under rated, but I don't know if I would say his neutral options are solid. They definitely aren't bad, encompassing a good dash dance and SHFFL speed is a great thing to have, but lacking a projectile hurts when you are such a big character and you are almost always forced to approach.

 

[nimigoha]

I do agree DK is under rated, but I don't know if I would say his neutral options are solid. They definitely aren't bad, encompassing a good dash dance and SHFFL speed is a great thing to have, but lacking a projectile hurts when you are such a big character and you are almost always forced to approach.

I get what you mean but plenty of characters usually rated far above him (FE characters come to mind) don't have projectiles and according to peoples' tier lists they apparently are able to deal.

In matchups where both characters have projectiles, someone is approaching. Lucario vs Fox isn't just two characters throwing lasers and aura spheres at each other for 4 minutes.

When projectiles are involved in neutral, one of three things happens (in very general vague terms):

1. Person turns their projectile into conversion and gets a punish or more projectiles

2. Person punishes opponent for using projectile unsafely

3. Person's projectile misses opponent, or opponent successfully blocks/clanks, and neutral resets.

So yes, DK doesn't have a projectile. This means that he has to sometimes win neutral against projectile users by converting off a projectile shot. Nair beats everything but lasers, powershielding beats everything (my playing partner has like a 60% powershield rate vs Falco's lasers and it makes the matchup closer to even, but I believe still bad for DK), and Dash Attack can power through lots of projectiles at quite a few percents.

DK's punish game on a lot of the cast is pretty straightforward and not technically difficult, the main thing there is knowing which kill setups and combo setups work on different weights and fall speeds. What makes playing DK technically skillful is properly navigating projectiles in neutral.

It's hard arguing for DK's positives because people assume you're overrating him to be like top tier, have to throw all kinds of disclaimers in your arguments lol.

I think DK is a solid mid-tier. He actually has a few very strong options like his aerial Up B startup and his ridiculous option coverage with Down B. He also has exploitable weaknesses, like large size and fast fall speed.

Not sure why he can't B-Reverse Giant Punch charge like every other charge B move can. PMDT please fix.

 

[CELTiiC]

I get what you mean but plenty of characters usually rated far above him (FE characters come to mind) don't have projectiles and according to peoples' tier lists they apparently are able to deal.

In matchups where both characters have projectiles, someone is approaching. Lucario vs Fox isn't just two characters throwing lasers and aura spheres at each other for 4 minutes.

When projectiles are involved in neutral, one of three things happens (in very general vague terms):

1. Person turns their projectile into conversion and gets a punish or more projectiles

2. Person punishes opponent for using projectile unsafely

3. Person's projectile misses opponent, or opponent successfully blocks/clanks, and neutral resets.

So yes, DK doesn't have a projectile. This means that he has to sometimes win neutral against projectile users by converting off a projectile shot. Nair beats everything but lasers, powershielding beats everything (my playing partner has like a 60% powershield rate vs Falco's lasers and it makes the matchup closer to even, but I believe still bad for DK), and Dash Attack can power through lots of projectiles at quite a few percents.

DK's punish game on a lot of the cast is pretty straightforward and not technically difficult, the main thing there is knowing which kill setups and combo setups work on different weights and fall speeds. What makes playing DK technically skillful is properly navigating projectiles in neutral.

It's hard arguing for DK's positives because people assume you're overrating him to be like top tier, have to throw all kinds of disclaimers in your arguments lol.

I think DK is a solid mid-tier. He actually has a few very strong options like his aerial Up B startup and his ridiculous option coverage with Down B. He also has exploitable weaknesses, like large size and fast fall speed.

Not sure why he can't B-Reverse Giant Punch charge like every other charge B move can. PMDT please fix.

I understand what you mean. Your argument is valid when you say two characters with projectiles one has to approach, but having no projectile versus another character means the further away the more of a disadvantage you are at since the character with the projectile can still threaten the space between you two. At least when two characters with projectiles are playing if you fade off you can also threaten that space as well, but with DK you can't. This is a little crippling, especially because of his size, since he isn't blessed with a Marth fox trot or Kirby crouch where he can get below some projectiles, and thus this causes him to either shield, jump, roll, attack etc. This causes DK to lose a lot more of those micro-interactions that happen in Smash, and makes DK have to win neutral even more against a character per say like Falco or Link. Also I do try to power shield as much as I can when I play DK/Bowser, but I wouldn't consider power shielding, a 3-4 frame window IIRC, a consistent or reliable tool in neutral. Also, Marth, Roy and Ike have a much easier time threatening air space in front of them with their f-air which helps them in neutral comparatively to DK IMO. DK's n-air is a great approach tool and threatens forward space immediately in front of DK, but it isn't as great at threatening forward air space comparatively. B-air serves a good purpose for this, but it requires you do either RAR or ensure you are facing backwards. Dash attack has some armor in it, but I wouldn't rely on that also to power through projectiles. N-air is your best bet definitely. But besides this rebuttal I do agree with your points.

Also, I don't believe Samus can either, and if she can, why can't DK? :'(

 

[Warhawk]

Is it possible for Falco's lasers to be designed to only stun at close and medium ranges and deal damage only at longer ranges? Not that I think this necessarily should be done but I think it may help some characters that really struggle with laser while still keeping it a good tool. Just something I was curious about

 

[Life]

For characters who are weak to projectiles, it's not getting hit by Falco laser that's an issue, it's what comes immediately after. Falco can't follow up on a long-range laser; Fox only got a range nerf to weaken his free damage. Falco, on the other hand, can use his laser to stall certain slow-startup upBs (e.g. Fox or Ness) while he positions himself to better edgeguard the opponent.

If anything, given that long-distance lasers are easier to powershield, the proposed change could be construed as a buff to Falco in neutral, since the punishment for throwing out a laser that's easily powershielded becomes reduced.

 

[Jaur]

Who do you guys think has the most brutal combo potential?

 

[Chevy]

Samus can always b-reverse her charge shot. DK can only b-reverse his punch when he punches. I guess it's a bit of an abnormality that his window is only during the punch instead of the wind-up, but it's probably because he doesn't go through the wind-up portion of punch when he unleashes it fully charged, so he's meant to be able to turn it around when unleashing it, rather than when he starts charging it.

I've seen multiple references to moves having "low hitstun" or "high hitstun" the last bunch of pages as well. Hitstun is not a variable, it is derived directly from knockback, meaning that you can generally intuit when someone is unable to act. The big mitigating factor here is gravity, which is why it seems like Fox gets more hitstun than say, Samus. Fox is light so he takes a bunch of knockback, but he has the highest gravity in the game so he falls back down to you faster. Samus is very heavy so she takes less knockback, but she's super floaty so you have a harder time catching up to her before she's able to act. The only exception is moves that send almost directly down on an opponent who is already grounded, in which case they receive full histun but only 80% knockback.

Point being, Wolf's shine is amazing just like the other two spacies. Still a busted tool, but Wolf is built around it a little more sensibly than Fox.

 

[Giygacoal]

Who do you guys think has the most brutal combo potential?

By design, probably Lucario. He can work relatively consistently with a wide range of characters and percents. It may depend on whether you consider "brutal" as most number of hits per combo, most damage per combo, strongest guaranteed finishing move, etc. though.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Chevy

Agreed on the hitstun bit. I understand what they mean (low end lag, so much time to follow up, etc), but it still is frustrating. It can also confuse newer players coming in.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I am not sure how good people consider Nox "Falcon Punched Rolex" Noxy, but this vid is pretty recent and is against the best bowser so there might be a little skill gap though it is at least something.

Bruh Darkblues isn't even a top 3 Bowser.

 

[Oracle]

top bowser list
1. odds
2. me
3. gimpyfish

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

top bowser list
1. odds
2. me
3. gimpyfish

You should seriously play more Bowser, you were looking good and he seems to fit your play style at least somewhat.

 

[Rawkobo]

top bowser list
1. odds
2. me
3. gimpyfish

does gimpyfish actually still play

that's news to me

 

[eideeiit]

No. Oracle is just a ****poster.

 

[InfinityCollision]

There are a few issues with trying to do that right now:
1: We need top level mains for each character to contribute to the conversation. Some characters have very few players who play them at top level. And even the ones with good representation can be hard to get a hold of and it takes a ton of time to get a consensus on matchups.

2: By the time a matchup spread is generally agreed on, PM gets updated and the old data is largely worthless.

Basically, a worthwhile tier list will not be possible until PM stops updating.

Aside from the handful of characters that receive significant changes in any given patch, I think updates have begun to take a back seat to plain old metagame development. There are still quite a few characters for whom the top players, let alone everyone else, are often fumbling around with things that are unlikely to have any real significance in their gameplay given another year or two, let alone five. It misrepresents that character's potential. Then you have complications with gaps in fundamentals and matchup knowledge, compounded by potential for ongoing development on the other end of that matchup...

Number tweaks as simple refinements in design usually don't have huge impacts. Big changes that add/remove/rework use cases for certain tools, that's a different story.

For now I think it would be a better use of time to analyze the characters generally agreed to be more glaringly in need of tweaks to bring them up or down in viability (Olimar, Pit, Bowser, Yoshi, Fox, Wolf, are some in my opinion).

Where it's like general discussion about frame data and damage and even just bad/great moves and how we could change them.

Like I enjoy the tier list discussion but it's never really about tier lists directly, unless it's us just picking apart some noobish tier list for fun. It always turns into single character discussion and occasional matchup discussion anyway.

There's a fantastic post on /r/ssbpm right now about Yoshi, detailing problems with his hitboxes and small design changes (and potential fixes).

For the most part I think this is what the PMDT is already doing, aside perhaps (read: hopefully) from the motive of "bringing them up or down in viability". No character is entitled to being mid tier, let alone high/top/best-in-class. On the other hand, a specific character consistently performing well is not inherently bad. The reality of having 40+ diverse characters is that some are just naturally solid and probably always will be unless you gut their core, which is undesirable. Design comes first, and it tends to address balance in the process anyway. If you start with the goal of giving everyone a complete set of functional tools, then play with the strengths/weaknesses/applications of those tools in fun and interesting ways, the result can still be both diverse and balanced. It also leads to healthier, more stable balance, a more focused design process, and overall a more fun game. Actively trying to make a character better or worse instead of giving due priority to design considerations and following the path that emerges can have undesirable results, something we've seen in action a few times now. It creates problems of its own, even if they're not always readily apparent.

We've generally seen the game progress in a clear and consistent manner towards a particular goal over the past few patches. A few missteps, a few things that perhaps have overstayed their welcome, but mostly on the right track. A lot of the current "issues" don't necessarily represent balance problems long-term, but they're arguably just as important, maybe even moreso, as who's at the top or bottom of the list. I'd actually argue that the top tiers are pretty close to okay for the most part. Small tweaks in the right places as needed + design improvements to characters that could potentially give them trouble with a solidified kit will see them comfortably "in the mix", so to speak. The bottom tiers just need a few gaps filled to be solid as well.

Discussion has intuitively followed in that direction. The difference between top and bottom is close enough and the thread of design is clear enough to favor thought and discussion within that vein. As such, the thread naturally manifests as a sort of barometer for certain topics of interest. It'd be interesting to chart the frequency of different words appearing over time in this thread - different characters, moves, mechanics, etc.

At any rate, I wouldn't mind seeing the thread renamed. Tiers are still sort of relevant to the discussion, but usually in a more secondary role. The discussion itself is already doing what it needs to do.

By design, probably Lucario. He can work relatively consistently with a wide range of characters and percents. It may depend on whether you consider "brutal" has most number of hits per combo, most damage per combo, strongest guaranteed finishing move, etc. though.

I honestly don't know about that anymore, or at least wouldn't put him out in front by any noteworthy margin. His combos are fast and flashy, sure; yet I think there are clear limits to what he can do, and that these limits will become more apparent as matchup knowledge and experience proliferate. Aura just gives him means to push that limit a little further back. I'd instead point to consistency as a notable strength in his punish game. If he opens you up, he's going to get something worthwhile for that effort.

 

[Scatz]

Also as for yoshi... anything less than a 3rd recovery just wont fix the issue with him i think... once again... going outside the realm of melee yoshi (who i think is better than this pm yoshi)

He doesn't require a 3rd recovery as functional as every other character. He's one of those characters that will either die really early or really late depending on the use of his DJ spacing.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

He doesn't require a 3rd recovery as functional as every other character. He's one of those characters that will either die really early or really late depending on the use of his DJ spacing.

This might be a "who i main" thing but i always killed yoshi at like 70-90% and never had a problem with the match up. Bowser and other hard hitters i bet just bust through his dj armour and laugh as he dies.

Also Oracle plays bowser?! And gimpyfish i have not saw anything from him since.... TBH3?

And dark blue may not be top 3, but he made that falcon look confused of the match up for 3/4 of the match which is what im saying. Falcon has the tools to crap on bowser but he has to play a very specific (and lame) way.

Also after thinking about bowser, all he needs is like 2 neutral options and maybe revert or give a new punish option and a recovery option (lets face it, bowser has one easy to edgeguard option and the klaw stall has a high input level and if you mess it up youll kill yourself in 3 different ways. Odds do you use this?)

And i would prefer a way to combat the fatty syndrome but i dont think it is a need more than a want.

 

[Scatz]

I won't judge personal experiences about you or the yoshi(s) in question since I don't know you, but the heavy hitters are the reason why Yoshi has to be careful about using his DJ. He consistently uses his recovery to play his game. Poor use of it easily means he'll die early when trying to force a counter hit or w/e.

 

[Zoa]

InfinityCollision

You caught my interest with the Lucario remarks. Would you mind elaborating on that more? I'm really interested to hear your thoughts about his combo game and consistency with his punish game.

 

[KakuCP9]

At any rate, I wouldn't mind seeing the thread renamed. Tiers are still sort of relevant to the discussion, but usually in a more secondary role. The discussion itself is already doing what it needs to do.

I was wondering if it is possible to change the title of the thread to "PM character design/viability discussion" because while there are many tier lists posted by people (most of them I avoid), I don't feel like the title represents what really goes on in here.

You dig?

 

[MTL Kyle]

I know this probably isn't what you meant, but that is in no way Ontario's tier list, just a tier list made by one player in Ontario.

Fun fact, Hello puts Ness in top 5 in his list, but Ness had 0 representation in their last 2 Power Rankings.

 

[nimigoha]

I dig. Depends how many people are on board though.

It makes sense as that's what this thread discusses, but one wonders whether that should just be a new thread? Unfortunately I don't think it would get the kind of traffic that this thread gets and that's what it needs so despite sorta going against the last 962 pages, a thread rename seems logical.