Tier List Speculation

[Player -0]

I want a confirmation on that. I remember someone (iirc it was a PMDT) saying it was changed because the person couldn't SDI at all because of the lack of hitlag.

Even Fox's shine and other moves don't have as much awkward hitlag as Lucas' magnet.

 

[Ripple]

hitlag is entirely dependent on damage (and if electric). SDI modifiers only deal with distance traveled per input

 

[Strong Badam]

Lucas magnet also had a very low hitlag multiplier, which made it significantly better on shield

 

[Player -0]

hitlag is entirely dependent on damage (and if electric). SDI modifiers only deal with distance traveled per input

iirc the person said that there was no hitlag so there was no opportunity to SDI. I THINK the person was @Juushichi but not 100% sure. I could probably take an hour to check but eh.

 

[_A1]

It's kinda scary seeing so many Fox complaints since I feel that most Fox mains are actually bad, or aren't optimizing the character.

 

[pkblaze]

Does fox even win that many tournaments in this game?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

iirc the person said that there was no hitlag so there was no opportunity to SDI. I THINK the person was @Juushichi but not 100% sure. I could probably take an hour to check but eh.

That is another factor, which I am sure was part of it. I think the primary reason was the shield advantage though. The hitlag multipliers were changed for a lot of Lucas' moves. because of SDI.

 

[JOE!]

Does fox even win that many tournaments in this game?

According to smashboards results, even in 3.0 he was like a 3rd of all wins

 

[GP&B]

It's not about mains underperforming and overall tournament wins. It's blatantly obvious that Fox ignores design goals that applied to the entire cast. Other characters with similar neutral-controlling strengths have nowhere near the same ability to close out stocks nor the same generous safeness of recovery (specifically the very low landing lag on Up B). Fox is dumb precisely because he gets away with this. This is why Fox is the Godwin's Law of this thread; we will ultimately always come back to this subject until Fox fits within the design goals that 3.5 set out to achieve.

 

[_A1]

Using the best character is rough in its own way. When you win, it's only because of the character. Fox mains get like no respect; they're seen a tier wh0res. Not every Fox is one. Heck, there are plenty of top Foxes that play him for fun and actually style, like Colbol, Lucky, Mango, and Ice.

Honestly, why do you guys bother with the constant Fox bashing? What about him hasn't already been said a million times? Even me telling you this has been said a million times.

All you can really do is wait for the next patch and hope that Fox gets changed to your liking.

 

[steelguttey]

while were on the topic of melee top tier changes, what do you guys think of jiggs?

i feel like she needs something like fire/ice form that samus got to help her deal with floaties and brawl gimmicks. she doesnt need better frame data or anything, she just needs something better

 

[GP&B]

Using the best character is rough in its own way. When you win, it's only because of the character. Fox mains get like no respect; they're seen a tier wh0res. Not every Fox is one. Heck, there are plenty of top Foxes that play him for fun and actually style, like Colbol, Lucky, Mango, and Ice.

Honestly, why do you guys bother with the constant Fox bashing? What about him hasn't already been said a million times? Even me telling you this has been said a million times.

All you can really do is wait for the next patch and hope that Fox gets changed to your liking.

Way to miss my point entirely. I don't care about the perception of Fox players or that using Fox somehow carries you to victory. I'm only talking about how it's a double standard for Fox as a character to ignore design goals that were forced on the entirety of the cast.

 

[Bazkip]

Using the best character is rough in its own way. When you win, it's only because of the character. Fox mains get like no respect; they're seen a tier wh0res. Not every Fox is one. Heck, there are plenty of top Foxes that play him for fun and actually style, like Colbol, Lucky, Mango, and Ice.

Honestly, why do you guys bother with the constant Fox bashing? What about him hasn't already been said a million times? Even me telling you this has been said a million times.

All you can really do is wait for the next patch and hope that Fox gets changed to your liking.

I think you need to check your Smash privilege.

 

[Boiko]

while were on the topic of melee top tier changes, what do you guys think of jiggs?

i feel like she needs something like fire/ice form that samus got to help her deal with floaties and brawl gimmicks. she doesnt need better frame data or anything, she just needs something better

A sword.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why is no one using Pit? This character is solid.

 

[MLGF]

Because too many characters do his job better.

 

[_A1]

@ GP&B I wasn't replying to you specifically. I completely understand what you're saying, except that it's been said over and over.

@ Bazkip I play Fox for fun.

 

[GP&B]

I don't really see who else that could be directed at (most of them already made the point I did to begin with) but okay.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fox mains get like no respect

Probably because when they win, it's almost always only because of the character. [In PM, anyway]

Why is no one using Pit? This character is solid.

Because Armada said he sucks now, and obviously Armada is right about everything

Seriously though he's really not that bad, just has a much worse effort:results ratio than many other good characters, and probably won't see major development for a while yet.

In other news, apparently @Umbreon can now verify my claims that Marth is a harder matchup for Bowser than is Sheik. They all thought I was crazy but look at you taking my advice when it counts

 

[Soft Serve]

Pit is horrible guys wtf

Like, his whole thing was "Yeah I lack immediate kill power, but I have the airspeed/flexibility to go offstage and confirm kills through WoP-eqse combos, and harass you enough with arrows to get damage and stagger game to set up my favored situations." But then the same tools that were meant to let him confirm into these combos were what made him so stupid on stage. Side-b got neutrered, dthrow isn't free everything anymore, Fair got nerfed so it has more endlag and harder to covert off of (although knockback did get reduced so its a better combo tool i guess) and arrows got nerfed. Then Dtilt was given 5 extra frames of start up and the sweetspot changes so CC dtilt is horribad now. Then everything else got nerfed.

Like he is still there and has things going for him, like olimar, but they don't work well. His recovery is sub par, he can't kill outright and going deep for the kills is both harder and2x more of a commitment, he struggles to confirm off anything anymore, he's really bad.

Some of this is probably hyperbole, but I thinks hes horrendous. If any Pit players want to come in and say otherwise I'd love to hear what they think this character actually has left. Honestly Puff is in a much better spot than pit right now, even though people tend to put puff in bottom 5 (different conversation, but I think puff is like, dead center mid tier this update).

 

[Frakture]

But none of that is true. The hitlag modifiers don't affect shields, so shining on shield would be the same. Also fox himself experiences normal hitlag, the opponent experiences 1.5x due to the electric element. Doubling the hitlag modifier wouldn't remove multishining either nor reduce it's effectiveness

First, you are right in saying hitlag modifiers don't affect shields. This means that the shielding opponent experiences normal hitlag while Fox experiences double hitlag.
Second, there is no electric effect on shines. The hitstun modifier for shine is 1.0.
Third, doubling the hitlag of shine would cause the Fox to be in the air for 10 frames. This means that his ECB would recalculate and it would take him a considerable amount of time to return to the ground. This is why multishining would effectively disappear.
I think that this would be an effective way to nerf Fox's shield pressure without affecting the other areas of his game.

 

[Strong Badam]

Second, there is no electric effect on shines. The hitstun modifier for shine is 1.0.

1. Yes there is. 2. There is no such thing as a hitstun modifier.

Third, doubling the hitlag of shine would cause the Fox to be in the air for 10 frames. This means that his ECB would recalculate and it would take him a considerable amount of time to return to the ground. This is why multishining would effectively disappear.

? You shine on the ground, then jump then shine again, without leaving the ground. Additional hitlag would not change the way multishining mechanics work, as multishines are repeated grounded shines.

 

[Ripple]

Electric element does not affect hitlag attacker. Both receive normal amounts of hitlag in shield.

And yes shine sites have electric element.

Third. The only way to double hitlag is to double damage. Like I said before, hitlag only scales with damage

 

[Strong Badam]

You can double hitlag by using a hitlag modifier, Ripple. It wouldn't take effect vs the defender on shield, though.

 

[Ripple]

Whoa whoa. I was specifically told by jolteon that hitlag modifiers only affect distance and not frames of lag and that damage was the only way to increase it now other than electric (we had an argument months ago about it)

Even though I thought I was right saying it wasn't true.

I'm going to go with what you say as right because I assume you know more about this than jolteon but you guys need to have your members actually know how the game works if they are going to correct people around the boards

 

[Frakture]

1. Yes there is. 2. There is no such thing as a hitstun modifier.

? You shine on the ground, then jump then shine again, without leaving the ground. Additional hitlag would not change the way multishining mechanics work, as multishines are repeated grounded shines.

I seemed to remember that shine didn't have any hitlag modifiers but I could be wrong. I meant to say hitlag modifers, I always mix the words up. However, you do leave the ground when multishining. The character's position doesn't change, but they are treated as being in midair.

 

[Strong Badam]

Whoa whoa. I was specifically told by jolteon that hitlag modifiers only affect distance and not frames of lag and that damage was the only way to increase it now other than electric (we had an argument months ago about it)

There are two modifiers. One is hitlag, the other is SDI. SDI modifiers reduce the distance you go when inputting (A)SDI. Hitlag modifiers literally change the amount of hitlag, but as I described earlier the victim's hitlag is x1.0 when their shield is hit.
You're welcome to tag me if you ever get in another disagreement with a PMDT member over mechanics. I generally know everything, or can find out.

I seemed to remember that shine didn't have any hitlag modifiers but I could be wrong. I meant to say hitlag modifers, I always mix the words up. However, you do leave the ground when multishining. The character's position doesn't change, but they are treated as being in midair.

The game considers you on the ground when multishining. You do not leave the ground. In essence, you go airborne and re-land on the same frame. Otherwise, you would do a double-jump afterward.

 

[Frakture]

There are two modifiers. One is hitlag, the other is SDI. SDI modifiers reduce the distance you go when inputting (A)SDI. Hitlag modifiers literally change the amount of hitlag, but as I described earlier the victim's hitlag is x1.0 when their shield is hit.

The game considers you on the ground when multishining. You do not leave the ground. In essence, you go airborne and re-land on the same frame. Otherwise, you would do a double-jump afterward.

You have to wait additional frames in order to hit the ground after you can jump cancel the shine, or you will DJ.

 

[Strong Badam]

EDIT: oops I was wrong

 

[xaerin]

You are wrong, and this is very easily verifiable by simply using Debug Mode in-game. You can jump cancel as early as frame 4 during a multishine just like any other shine and still get a grounded jump.

Im waiting for your tier list bro

 

[Frakture]

You are wrong, and this is very easily verifiable by simply using Debug Mode in-game. You can jump cancel as early as frame 4 during a multishine just like any other shine and still get a grounded jump.

You are wrong, and this is very easily verifiable by simply using Debug Mode in-game. You can jump cancel as early as frame 3 during a multishine and you will double jump. I just tested this.

Also, I just tested shine's hitlag frames. Even if it has an electric element effect, its hitlag multiplier is definitely 1.0

 

[Strong Badam]

Nvm you're right, that's what I get for never playing this character or researching broken tactics. The JC is frame 4 tho.

 

[Magus420]

Multishines are air shines dude and you do air jump out of them if you JC too early. This is very easily verifiable by simply using Debug Mode in-game.

 

[Frakture]

Nvm you're right, that's what I get for never playing this character or researching broken tactics. The JC is frame 4 tho.

No it's frame 3. I literally just tested this. If you jump frame 4 it will do a normal jump.

 

[Strong Badam]

Frame Advance to frame 3, hold Jump, press Z, jump input is read and occurs frame 4. Trying to hold jump when advancing to frame 3 does nothing, because shine reflect/JC window begins frame 4.

 

[Deleted member]

In other news, apparently @Umbreon can now verify my claims that Marth is a harder matchup for Bowser than is Sheik. They all thought I was crazy but look at you taking my advice when it counts

i just played horrible all night and wanted to go home after round 2. every time i switched to marth was basically forfeiting.

 

[Frakture]

Frame Advance to frame 3, hold Jump, press Z, jump input is read and occurs frame 4. Trying to hold jump when advancing to frame 3 does nothing, because shine reflect/JC window begins frame 4.

Oh, OK. We just counted the frames differently. Your way makes more sense though.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Don't forget that it is very easily verifiable by simply using debug mode...

But slightly more seriously, Strong bad calling a fox technique broken. Confirmed fox nerfs PM 3.621

You heard here first...

 

[bec]

In other news, apparently @Umbreon can now verify my claims that Marth is a harder matchup for Bowser than is Sheik. They all thought I was crazy but look at you taking my advice when it counts

marth does purple button better

 

[Jacob29]

Maybe you should read patch notes.

And I was just calling out up smash as something that did become what people wanted wanted, but i still hear QQ on it. I agree fox could use some toning down, but even when some of his tools get toned down, I still hear that it isn't enough. In regards to what was nerfed, I mean. That's what i was saying >>

I do read patch notes. I love patch notes and updates in general.

Nothing gets me more excited than a new DOTA patch, except PM patch's but they are rarer.