Tier List Speculation

[Beorn]

Not to mention that for the big link, his arm pulls back from the recoil in his grabbing animation, making this small grab box even harder to connect with.

I'm just going to leave this here. That grab box inside the bigger grab bubble is what pickle is talking about btw.

Remember that this is also the reason Link grabs behind his back sometimes. Because of this huge recoil.

#recoil #11 frames #bad

 

[Player -0]

Does the grab-box come out before or after he starts moving?

That's kind of dumb though.

 

[B.W.]

As someone who played Link and T.Link when the chain could grab people out of the air, trust me. You don't want it to be able to do so again.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

It's a way better situation for TL because bomb -> fair -> grab is a true combo on most characters until fair starts forcing kd vs ASDI down, so you can treat bomb as a pseudo-grab. Doesn't really help against spacies for example, but it's a large boon against most of the cast because his punish game from grab is incredible and having a reliable low% grab set-up to harness that is amazing.

Really? That's pretty disgusting lol, figures it doesn't matter against spacies, but it sitll must be nice to be a tink main.

I'm just going to leave this here. That grab box inside the bigger grab bubble is what pickle is talking about btw.

Remember that this is also the reason Link grabs behind his back sometimes. Because of this huge recoil.

#recoil #11 frames #bad

Yeah it's true, from what I've been saying recently, and what you've been telling me forever, you can see clearly that link's grab is garbo. But hey, at least you have that move that comes out on frame 8 which everyone thinks comes out on frame 6, and is supposed to be a kill move, but it's easily DIable to survive around 140 for most characters....

 

[DMG]

the perfect starter stage list should be 3 "average" size stage, 2 small, and 2 larger.

^^^^^^^

The focus should have always been on those average stages. You can maintain the balance of small vs big without diluting the average stages so heavily.

 

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

I feel like 2-5 on the tier list is pretty interchangeable. There's no clear "second best character" that stands out to me after Fox. Kinda sucks that I also feel that those 4 characters lose the Fox matchup at least marginally..

So what's your guys' plan for him?

 

[Deleted member]

So what's your guys' plan for him?

<-- See my smashboards icon for further details

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

<-- See my smashboards icon for further details

I feel like this will stop making sense in like a week

 

[trash?]

well now he just has to make sure he constantly keeps in tone with that post

I hope that there's a day that fox gets heavy changes, not because of any other pride, but because then he'll change his av to "ayyy lmao"

 

[_A1]

What do you guys think about Fox without lasers?

 

[DMG]

I agree, Fox should instead throw his gun like Link's old Boomerang

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like this will stop making sense in like a week

thats what we'll say when fox gets nerfed and we look at old complaint threads

#Hooray

 

[JOE!]

Nah, his gun should shoot shines so precious Fox mains don't get carpal tunnel

 

[MLGF]

OK seriously, I've played a lot of fighting games before I started PM and making a character good based entirely on difficulty of execution is the worst design and never works, and Fox is in that category in Melee and PM.
There's a reason fighters have been avoiding this trend, or that it always seems to hurt the health of the game *coughZerocough*. Honestly, I'm still flabbergasted that Melee has gotten so big lately when other fighters with this issue go down the wayside.
I know Fox is a painfully overdone topic, but I feel like throwing that out right now because no one else mentions that tiny tidbit. Fighters haven't balanced characters around execution in a long time, because it's dumb.

 

[JOE!]

^^^^^

The balance goes out the window when people can do the execution. Why play an "easier" character if they aren't as good by design?

 

[Oracle]

I honestly think fox's lasers should be like smash 4 where if you start them in the air and land, you continue the lasers on the ground and have to put the gun away because it really doesn't matter what other nerfs you do to fox, if he has that laser he's always gonna be able to run away and rack up free damage; he'll just have to do it for longer if he isn't as powerful

 

[Deleted member]

Oh and I also liked the idea you mentioned of fox committing to a direction whenever he shoots with his laser like brawl/s4

(our icons are godlike)

 

[jtm94]

Fox lasering against GnW is like the epitome of Fox vs Marth in Melee. I get a full bucket, I still can't get in. I end up dying, but off one grab Fox is done and things feel nice for a moment.

We may as well make l cancelling reduce end lag to 0 and give every character a DJC so everyone has an incredibly high skill ceiling and can break shields on contact. Once shielding is bad Fox can't shine out of it and the game will be balanced right?

Did anyone have success with Link at Shots Fired? I feel like I never really saw any amazing Links in 3.02 outside of boomerang the character, now I see Mr. Sandbag dressed as Link.

 

[eideeiit]

Did anyone have success with Link at Shots Fired? I feel like I never really saw any amazing Links in 3.02 outside of boomerang the character, now I see Mr. Sandbag dressed as Link.

E2xD got 17th. He beat Glick in winners, lost to Ally, beat Lite and Master WGS and then was eliminated by Apollo Ali.

 

[ChiePet]

Innovative Idea: MAYBE PAL/in-between Fox would be better, but I think either reverting certain characters or giving them tools to deal with Fox is an alright solution.

that said, CANT WAIT TO SEE PIT'S BUFFS NEXT VERSION

 

[Binary Clone]

reverting certain characters

Who, and why?

or giving them tools to deal with Fox is an alright solution.

I feel like it's been said over and over that this doesn't work, and that most of the really dumb stuff that PM has had in the past were the result of trying to do that.

 

[Boiko]

E2xD got 17th. He beat Glick in winners, lost to Ally, beat Lite and Master WGS and then was eliminated by Apollo Ali.

No offense to him but that's a pretty easy bracket compared to what others had to deal with. *cough*

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

What's Fox's archetype supposed to be anyway?

 

[Foo]

Innovative Idea: MAYBE PAL/in-between Fox would be better, but I think either reverting certain characters or giving them tools to deal with Fox is an alright solution.

that said, CANT WAIT TO SEE PIT'S BUFFS NEXT VERSION

Or we could just simulate that by giving fox actual lag on his recovery (and maybe some other things) as well as giving him bad tech options and rolls in general. Also, you could have him be a bit like metaknight, where he racks up a lot of hits really quickly, but doesn't do 15% with each damn hit and doesn't convert EVERYTHING into a kill.

Also, pit is fine. People that played 3.02 pit just switched over to 3.5 pit, then tried to play him like it was 3.02. When that didn't work, they wrote the character off as bad without figuring out how to play 3.5 pit. There's a good pit player in my region, and he makes me think pit is just a solid all around character. He has good mobility, great recovery, ok-good neutral, ok-good kill power, decent approach tools, good throws, great projetiles and good combos. He's fast with multi jumps and a glide. It's kinda hard to make that bad, especially when he has a sword. Same goes for metaknight.

 

[Jacob29]

What's Fox's archetype supposed to be anyway?

top tier

 

[mimgrim]

What's Fox's archetype supposed to be anyway?

He is suppose to be a Glass Canon.

But that matters little when you can't touch the little ******.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

top tier

I laughed too hard at this. I'll lurk somewhere else now.

He is suppose to be a Glass Canon.

But that matters little when you can't touch the little ****er.

Hmm. He needs a new job.

 

[CyberZixx]

He is suppose to be a Glass Canon.

But that matters little when you can't touch the little ****er.

It frustrates me to no end when people say that because fox is hardly glass.

 

[Deleted member]

What do you guys think about Fox without lasers?

i dont even think lasers are good

frankly i think this would solve nothing while giving the melee fox players something else to moan about

 

[mimgrim]

It frustrates me to no end when people say that because fox is hardly glass.

When he finally gets hit by *most* characters he is, but that is far easier said then done. And it is what his archetype is *suppose* to be.

But like I said. It matters little when you can't touch him.

 

[CyberZixx]

When he finally gets hit by *most* characters he is, but that is far easier said then done. And it is what his archetype is *suppose* to be.

But like I said. It matters little when you can't touch him.

My comment was not directed at you, a more general thing. Like, his recovery has a ton of mix up potential, his tech rolls are not even bad, and some characters can only combo him via tech chase. In general, how often does goes get 0 to death'd? It is a myth.

 

[NTG]

I think someone mentioned shine with scaling knockback, that might be a decent idea. Also like the idea of less damage on certain moves. Just think there's got to be some middle ground that leaves players happy with his playstyle while balancing him somewhat...there are a lot of characters that got abandoned when their playstyle changed, even though the character wasn't necessarily bad. Think people will be happier with the character if they retain the feel even if they're nerfed overall.

But hey, I'm new here, what do I know

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

When he finally gets hit by *most* characters he is, but that is far easier said then done. And it is what his archetype is *suppose* to be.

But like I said. It matters little when you can't touch him.

And when he has an armored recovery with a pretty large range

 

[Warzenschwein]

Yfw all of your problems could be solved by maining Fox, it's that ez.
I swear it's like you choose not to win.

 

[Legato]

Let's just pull PPMD over here and get him to advance the meta with marth and falco against fox. There problem solved. :D

Real talk though, as a fox lover i am nervous about the nerfing. It seems like it will be tough to find the balance on this one and still keep the core attributes of the char. If he becomes too easy to punish then we will see him shoot down the tier list since he is so easily combo'd.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

wow it's almost like fox is a poorly designed character with incredibly polarizing traits like sonic

edit: that being said sonic does a much better job at being well-designed and polarizing than fox does
I mean fox is supposed to be a glass canon but it doesn't really work out that way
you have an armored recovery move with very large range
you have a frame one defensive option
you have the strongest and one of the quickest upsmashes in the game
you have a way to easily gimp someone in a reasonable situation at 0 percent
you completely invalidate parts of the neutral and the entire concept of shielding
and you're just one of the fastest characters in general

sonic is fast but sonic doesn't have the strength, gimping abilities, recovery, priority, or defensive options fox has

like why is fox even a character why have we made sonic mains go through the struggles of constantly changing their moveset while fox remains virtually untouched despite facing the exact same problems plus a slew of others

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Let's just pull PPMD over here and get him to advance the meta with marth and falco against fox. There problem solved. :D

Real talk though, as a fox lover i am nervous about the nerfing. It seems like it will be tough to find the balance on this one and still keep the core attributes of the char. If he becomes too easy to punish then we will see him shoot down the tier list since he is so easily combo'd.

also this is a double post but **** it

what's wrong with a low-tier fox
or are you saying that his core attributes are being top-tier

 

[eideeiit]

@ Legato

What would say these "core attributes" of Fox are? From what I've seen nerfing either Fox's recovery or kill options (esp. kill options) seem like the most popular routes to take, as neither is really necessary for the way he is played. Some say stuff like this just makes it so that Fox has to do Fox things for a few moments longer a match, which wouldn't really change anything, and think that in turn for example his nair and bair should be nerfed to make some of his options less multi-viable. How would these things change Fox to you?

 

[Binary Clone]

shoot down the tier list since he is so easily combo'd.

That's absurd.

You know who else is really easily combo'd? Captain Falcon. Falco. Roy. Wolf. And... oh hey, what do you know, all of those guys are still probably easily top 10 in PM right now.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It's never gonna be enough with fox's options. He has PAL usmash, right? He has something that is at least close to it. Regardless, I still hear about that move, like nothing happened. Not saying fox should not be nerfed, I just don't people will ever stop ********.