Tier List Speculation

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

My quick shortlist about fox

His core traits are his fall speed and his pressuring abilities I mean sure his upsmash is good but not nearly as important to fox as his shine. Other characters have strong smashes (maybe not as quick) but no other character has a frame one move (aside from falco and wolf) Additionally, fox's groundspeed is also pretty important but messing with that would really throw a wrench into the familiarity of fox

I hate to try to play pmbr but I'm gonna throw out a list of changes that might be possible
1. nerf upsmash, at least to PAL levels, maybe as far as to falco levels. either weaken it or give it longer startup. Weakening it would still make it function the same just at later percents while slowing it down would make it much more satisfying to land when one does hit it.
2. reduce decrease armor/length on firefox. I think firefox has already been reverted to PAL length, but I think an interesting change would be to get rid of armor, making fox easier to gimp. However, I think fox is already plenty gimpable and has a very predictable recovery if he uses illusion or firefox. Additionally, firefox's startup usually allows enough time to get offstage and swat him away. If more nerfs must be done, another option is lengthening the startup on firefox
3. Somehow find a way to decrease shine pressure. Possibly this could consist of a smaller and later jump cancel window like what happened to lucas' magnet from 3.0 to 3.5. Possibly this could consist of reducing hitstun/shieldstun through reducing knockback? I'm not totally sure how to approach this.
4. rework and nerf some other tools that fox has that are above average. these might include some priority nerfs, or my favorite is reducing a small item like fox's shield, rolls, or techrolls. It wouldn't be something that would totally interfere with fox's gameplay but it would definitely impact fox when fox is placed into a disadvantageous situation.

Fox is not nearly as bad in PM as he is in melee but some of the "jank" things that 3.5 tried to fix are still present in fox. People complained when other characters were brought up to fox's level (lucas, pit, sonic, old ike) but yet fox still has all of those problematic characteristics.

 

[Soft Serve]

My quick shortlist about fox

His core traits are his fall speed and his pressuring abilities I mean sure his upsmash is good but not nearly as important to fox as his shine. Other characters have strong smashes (maybe not as quick) but no other character has a frame one move (aside from falco and wolf) Additionally, fox's groundspeed is also pretty important but messing with that would really throw a wrench into the familiarity of fox

I hate to try to play pmbr but I'm gonna throw out a list of changes that might be possible
1. nerf upsmash, at least to PAL levels, maybe as far as to falco levels. either weaken it or give it longer startup. Weakening it would still make it function the same just at later percents while slowing it down would make it much more satisfying to land when one does hit it.
2. reduce decrease armor/length on firefox. I think firefox has already been reverted to PAL length, but I think an interesting change would be to get rid of armor, making fox easier to gimp. However, I think fox is already plenty gimpable and has a very predictable recovery if he uses illusion or firefox. Additionally, firefox's startup usually allows enough time to get offstage and swat him away. If more nerfs must be done, another option is lengthening the startup on firefox
3. Somehow find a way to decrease shine pressure. Possibly this could consist of a smaller and later jump cancel window like what happened to lucas' magnet from 3.0 to 3.5. Possibly this could consist of reducing hitstun/shieldstun through reducing knockback? I'm not totally sure how to approach this.
4. rework and nerf some other tools that fox has that are above average. these might include some priority nerfs, or my favorite is reducing a small item like fox's shield, rolls, or techrolls. It wouldn't be something that would totally interfere with fox's gameplay but it would definitely impact fox when fox is placed into a disadvantageous situation.

Fox is not nearly as bad in PM as he is in melee but some of the "jank" things that 3.5 tried to fix are still present in fox. People complained when other characters were brought up to fox's level (lucas, pit, sonic, old ike) but yet fox still has all of those problematic characteristics.

Firefox has ntsc distance. And no armor on it, but it's got covering hitboxes on charge and movement. And no end lag.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Firefox has ntsc distance. And no armor on it, but it's got covering hitboxes on charge and movement. And no end lag.

ahh I remember incorrectly someone may have told me once that it had armor

anyway
still
I think my point about startup time still stands

 

[Jacob29]

It's never gonna be enough with fox's options. He has PAL usmash, right? He has something that is at least close to it. Regardless, I still hear about that move, like nothing happened. Not saying fox should not be nerfed, I just don't people will ever stop *****ing.

lmao.

According to who?

M2 got nerfed, nobody complains about him anymore so why not Fox?

 

[941]

M2 got nerfed, nobody complains about him anymore so why not Fox?

M2 wasn't the most popular character in Melee.

 

[Boiko]

I'm going to address a few of these points.

1. nerf upsmash, at least to PAL levels, maybe as far as to falco levels. either weaken it or give it longer startup. Weakening it would still make it function the same just at later percents while slowing it down would make it much more satisfying to land when one does hit it.

While in theory weakening up smash even further sounds like a good change, it's really not. Something you would need to consider is the fact that it would now be able to combo into itself a lot more if it's KBG is changed too much. It's the same reason you can't just nerf the KB on the second hit of uair. He'll just combo it fives+ times in a row. Increasing start up makes sense, but overall, I don't think up smash is the core of his problems. I personally think knee is significantly worse than up smash, but maybe that's just me.

2. reduce decrease armor/length on firefox. I think firefox has already been reverted to PAL length, but I think an interesting change would be to get rid of armor, making fox easier to gimp. However, I think fox is already plenty gimpable and has a very predictable recovery if he uses illusion or firefox. Additionally, firefox's startup usually allows enough time to get offstage and swat him away. If more nerfs must be done, another option is lengthening the startup on firefox

I'll ignore the armor/PAL length parts since Softie corrected you on those. IMO you're missing the biggest problem with his recovery and it's that it has 6 frames of landing lag. Ness had a comparable recovery in 3.02, in that it had no lag. In 3.5 they added 20 frames, but left Fox's recovery, which is significantly better than Ness' alone. The best way to nerf his recovery is to give him 20 frames of landing lag.

3. Somehow find a way to decrease shine pressure. Possibly this could consist of a smaller and later jump cancel window like what happened to lucas' magnet from 3.0 to 3.5. Possibly this could consist of reducing hitstun/shieldstun through reducing knockback? I'm not totally sure how to approach this.

I believe the way to adjust shield pressure would be to reduce the damage it does. But I'm not entirely sure.

4. rework and nerf some other tools that fox has that are above average. these might include some priority nerfs, or my favorite is reducing a small item like fox's shield, rolls, or techrolls. It wouldn't be something that would totally interfere with fox's gameplay but it would definitely impact fox when fox is placed into a disadvantageous situation.

IMO the best niche areas to target are really just his damage output. I believe a full drill does close to 17%, someone correct me if I'm wrong. But it should do closer to 12%-14% and if that affects the SDI multiplier, adjust accordingly. I believe nair is 12% and bair is 14%, but I could be wrong. I also think they should be toned down a small amount, considering how easy it is to link them together. I know this directly affects their ability to combo so maybe some adjustment to BKB or KBG would be merited. I'm not too familiar with how all of that works, TBH. Fox is a small, fast character, with simple combo strings that put out a lot of damage. If he messes up a string, he can get punished severely. If has to perform more strings to kill because his damage output is lower, he has a higher likelihood of his opponent catching him out of something predictable. Then, if you do get him off stage, he has to recover with considerable lag.

That's just how I would approach it.
Kind of a medium risk, high reward, but high skill cap character.

 

[eideeiit]

@ PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Changing shine timings would be the single biggest thing that we can do to change Fox and it would not just change nothing on the surface, but IMO actually hurt the community, as no Melee Fox would ever even like to talk about PM from that point on.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

@ PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Changing shine timings would be the single biggest thing that we can do to change Fox and it would not just change nothing on the surface, but IMO actually hurt the community, as no Melee Fox would ever even like to talk about PM from that point on.

I mean how do you think lucas mains felt after 3.0

but yeah everyone read Boiko's post because he's smarter than I am

 

[Rizner]

I think changing lag on shield hits and on his up b might be enough. Up smash a shield? Get punished every time. Nair-shine a shield? Later jump cancel so it isn't a free disengage (similar to Lucas changes).
Make improper spacing and shield pressure not so free, imo, and make the windows of things later for some actions.

 

[Ripple]

just gonna pop in and say he ALREADY has PAL up-smash.

18% > 17%
112 > 108 KBK
12 > 8 BKB

 

[Frakture]

If you doubled the hitlag modifiers on shine, multishining would be impossible. It would also make Fox come out of hitlag on the same frame the opponent comes out of shieldlag.

 

[Paradoxium]

I think Fox's problems are his dash dance, and kills.

For his kills I think they should just remove the up throw up air entirely, imo its the reason why Fox's upsmash was broken to begin with. The only think that defeated the upsmash was shield, but uthrow uair is another reliable kill option to cover the upsmashes weaknesses.

And his dash dance game should be nerfed. Maybe just dash dance nair specifically.

I think just targeting those 2 areas would do the trick.

And I guess they could lower his run speed or increase his jumpsquat frames or something. But I never have any problems with fox so I don't really care.

 

[Rizner]

If you doubled the hitlag modifiers on shine, multishining would be impossible. It would also make Fox come out of hitlag on the same frame the opponent comes out of shieldlag.

Yes. Yes it would.

I think Fox's problems are his dash dance, and kills.

For his kills I think they should just remove the up throw up air entirely, imo its the reason why Fox's upsmash was broken to begin with. The only think that defeated the upsmash was shield, but uthrow uair is another reliable kill option to cover the upsmashes weaknesses.

And his dash dance game should be nerfed. Maybe just dash dance nair specifically.

I think just targeting those 2 areas would do the trick.

And I guess they could lower his run speed or increase his jumpsquat frames or something. But I never have any problems with fox so I don't really care.

His kills, imo, wouldn't be the issue - it might take another 35 seconds before the kill comes but that isn't a huge deal for fox. The dash dance Nair is really just the short hop Nair, which is really just the Nair shine approach. The part I see wrong with it is the free escape regardless of spacing and timing, which a slower dash or longer jump squat wouldn't really address.

 

[Paradoxium]

His kills, imo, wouldn't be the issue - it might take another 35 seconds before the kill comes but that isn't a huge deal for fox.

I don't think kills are a huge deal for Fox because he has 2 reliable kill options out of his dash dance. And each option covers the others weakness.

Like what are you supposed to do when your at high damage and have to approach a dash dancing fox? You need a hard ass read otherwise you will die, because of the upsmash upthrow mix up. But If you got rid of the upthrow upair combo entirely that already significantly hurts his kill game, because he no longer has a kill option to cover for his upsmash. So shielding would actually be a legit option in this scenario and you wouldn't be forced into this guessing game that's in Fox's favor.

The dash dance Nair is really just the short hop Nair, which is really just the Nair shine approach. The part I see wrong with it is the free escape regardless of spacing and timing, which a slower dash or longer jump squat wouldn't really address.

A slower jump squat and slower dash dance would give you more time to react to the dash dance nair, giving you more time to punish it. They could even lower the distance he jumps to give his dd nair less range. I think the speed and range when it comes out is more of a problem than the pressure.

 

[Player -0]

Instead of Up-Throw -> Up-Air... Up-Throw should kill by itself.



lol that would be hilarious.

 

[steelguttey]

he has 3 kill options out of a dash. people forget how stupid of a buff rar bair was for fox+falco

 

[Soft Serve]

he has 3 kill options out of a dash. people forget how stupid of a buff rar bair was for fox+falco

Plus fox now has sh ac bairs, which are pretty silly for covering high/mid recoveries and just threatening. It's hard but sh rar ac bair is a silly approach

 

[NTG]

Instead of Up-Throw -> Up-Air... Up-Throw should kill by itself.



lol that would be hilarious.

Up throw->up air now features fox sticking a grenade onto his enemy, same function but without the hassle of actually landing the up air

 

[Paradoxium]

he has 3 kill options out of a dash. people forget how stupid of a buff rar bair was for fox+falco

iIthink rar bair is fine, it's nowhere near as good has up throw up air or upsmash.

 

[MHTak]

Some ways to nerf fox:

Obviously dash speed (even a slight reduction would make a difference) and other properties of the dash. Also fix the dash animation and foxtrot window (if not done already, last version I played was 3.0).

Slower max walkspeed: Not too sure about this, walk is used sometimes, at least in shine combos.
Shorter wavedash would also make shine combos harder.

Make hitting the second hit u-air more difficult. (For example by dividing the damage of the hits differently or just making the second hit smaller.)

Reduce max aerial velocity (not max falling velocity).

Up b hitboxes and the actual hit (for less sakurai combos).

Aerial priorities.

Other misc stuff like jumpcancel out of turn around in shine, the turn-walk mechanics, rar...

 

[Strong Badam]

just gonna pop in and say he ALREADY has PAL up-smash.

18% > 17%
112 > 108 KBK
12 > 8 BKB

Pretty sure it was 30 -> 26 BKB. I unfortunately have memorized all of the PAL changes on this character.

 

[Ripple]

yeah, I just knew it decreased by 4

 

[Soft Serve]

My favorite ninja buff fox got was special c stick. Pivot Waveshine infinites mid stage for dayss

I'm glad no one puts serious time into pm fox, he's so easy to break too.

 

[JOE!]

Lets just let Fox randomly trip when DD'ing

 

[CyberZixx]

And his shine should have a 5% chance of malfunction where it explodes like Diddy's overcharged Peanut gun.

 

[JOE!]

Seriously tho:

Make Up throw have more end lag to behave more like Uthrow vs heavies, not auto-comboing into up air.

Up Air have more Base Knockback but less growth, it will not combo into itself nearly as well but possibly retain the same average kill rate

Same deal as above to Up Smash: more base knockback, lower growth to keep the power aspect but less combo utility. Add much more end lag to it so that a whiff or shielded hit is very punishable, but clean hits are just the same for him. The animation could be him landing from the flip in a more dramatic fashion or such.

Add a bit of time to the laser cancel when SHHFling to make it not as "you absolutely need to bait him"-y.

 

[SunJester]

Some things that I find omelette du fromage about Fox that I think could be changed.

UP-B:

I'd like it to be PAL distance and to increase the landing lag so that if he doesn't sweet spot he's easier to punish.

Alternatively reduce the hitboxes so he's much easier to hit out it.

Speed:

I'd like to see almost all round his speed reduced. Not so much falling speed as dash, and air velocity.

Alternatively you could reduce initial dash speed so he can't dash dance as well

Up Smash:

More base knockback (so that it doesn't combo into itself) but way less knockback growth. Also with a percent damage decrease.

Alternatively you could make it so jab doesn't combo into U-smash.

U-Air:

Easier to SDI, or alternatively making U-throw easier to DI away from U-air.

Neutral-B:

Slower firing maybe?

Shine:

Not sure but I have some random ideas to toss out.

I kinda like shine spiking, but I wish it was more hazardous to do sometimes it seems entirely too safe, maybe remove the stalling and keep him falling during the animation?

Maybe shine couldn't have set knockback, so certain things only work at certain percentages? IE: Wave-shining only working at low percents, and shine spiking only working at high?

Maybe it could be made crouch cancelable like Wolf's shine?

Perhaps we could just give it a % damage nerf and less shield damage?

 

[Beorn]

Uair 18% (17 now) both hits

Bair 15%

Fair 18% all hits

Dair 19% all hits

Usmash 18% (17 now)

Dsmash 15 %

Fsmash 15%

Nair 12%

Ftilt 9%

Dtilt 10%

Utilt 12%

Fire fox 14%

A lot of this is a problem. Go look at other characters damage output.

This is just the damages of his moves. Not even counting his speed, saftey, Shine, Killpower. Just damage

 

[DrinkingFood]

If you doubled the hitlag modifiers on shine, multishining would be impossible. It would also make Fox come out of hitlag on the same frame the opponent comes out of shieldlag.

But none of that is true. The hitlag modifiers don't affect shields, so shining on shield would be the same. Also fox himself experiences normal hitlag, the opponent experiences 1.5x due to the electric element. Doubling the hitlag modifier wouldn't remove multishining either nor reduce it's effectiveness

 

[MLGF]

PAL UP-B would be great, it hurts his amazing mixups, which I find to be a solid solution.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

lmao.

According to who?

M2 got nerfed, nobody complains about him anymore so why not Fox?

Maybe you should read patch notes.

just gonna pop in and say he ALREADY has PAL up-smash.

18% > 17%
112 > 108 KBK
12 > 8 BKB

And I was just calling out up smash as something that did become what people wanted wanted, but i still hear QQ on it. I agree fox could use some toning down, but even when some of his tools get toned down, I still hear that it isn't enough. In regards to what was nerfed, I mean. That's what i was saying >_>

 

[didds]

guys we're doing that thing again

where we talk about that guy

when the real issue is Ike right now

he's simply a character that the mods should take a look at

 

[JOE!]

Doesn't up air do 18%?

 

[MLGF]

Norsurifsrs.

Humanity, please don't take anything M2K says seriously, like ever.

 

[The Baron]

guys we're doing that thing again

where we talk about that guy

when the real issue is Ike right now

he's simply a character that the mods should take a look at

I'm going to borrow from your signature.

"wait...what?"

 

[Player -0]

-------> (joke)
\o/ (your head.... + arms)

 

[Strong Badam]

Doesn't up air do 18%?

His up air does 17 when both hits hit.

 

[Player -0]

It did 18% in 3.02 iirc because of the discrepancy between Melee and P:M (came from Brawl though) mechanics. In Melee the moves would stale from each hit but in Brawl (and therefore P:M) it only counts each individual move. For example, Peach's D-Smash in Melee hits you a bunch of times and each time it hits it stales, in P:M it doesn't stale until the move ends.

afaik

 

[The Baron]

-------> (joke)
\o/ (your head.... + arms)

I'm dense like that sometimes unfortunately

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I mean how do you think lucas mains felt after 3.0

but yeah everyone read Boiko's post because he's smarter than I am

For clarification, Lucas had an absurdly good hitlag multiplier (which made it abnormally good on shield since he experiences less hitlag then the shielder). So when you miss, the timings are the same, but when you hit they aren't. It was apart of the normalizing hitlag and SDI multipliers.