Tier List Speculation

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I do read patch notes. I love patch notes and updates in general.

Nothing gets me more excited than a new DOTA patch, except PM patch's but they are rarer.

You would have known about up smash then.

 

[Deleted member]

Way to miss my point entirely. I don't care about the perception of Fox players or that using Fox somehow carries you to victory. I'm only talking about how it's a double standard for Fox as a character to ignore design goals that were forced on the entirety of the cast.

the interesting thing about fox vs the rest of the cast is that other problem characters are surprisingly well done atm. like, i know i wouldnt want to be the guy that had to fix falco, or sonic, or ice climbers, or olimar, etc. the baseline smash franchises define the character feel that we want to preserve, but what happens when that baseline design is also fundamentally flawed to the point where it conflicts with PM design goals? and yet here we are, every character is either fine or 99% fine, except fox.

 

[Jolteon]

Whoa whoa. I was specifically told by jolteon that hitlag modifiers only affect distance and not frames of lag and that damage was the only way to increase it now other than electric (we had an argument months ago about it)

Even though I thought I was right saying it wasn't true.

I'm going to go with what you say as right because I assume you know more about this than jolteon but you guys need to have your members actually know how the game works if they are going to correct people around the boards

I didn't say this at all. I explained how both SDI and hitlag multipliers work, and that otherwise the hitlag formula matches melee.

 

[Boiko]

Am i the only one who doesn't feel like Captain Falcon is okay? It seemed that for a while, everyone was talking about how Fox is centralized around shine. But why is the argument never made that Falcon is centralized around knee? I played a lot with Remo at Shots Fired, and I don't think he ever landed a kill other than a knee or a high percent up air. These were some of the starters that converted into knee:
Up air (tried to DI down and away, but it pushed me too far, I was forced to recover and was kneed out of my recovery)
Down Throw
Up Throw
Stomp
Gentleman
Side B.
Soft Knee

Now this is why I believe this is a problem. First of all, Falcon is known for having a specifically strong combo game against floaties, and relying more on reads and tech chases against fast fallers. PM introduced a lot of physics changes, but a majority of the cast, is floaty or floaty enough to get comboed by Falcon. I believe there are about 13-15 characters that fall outside this realm including the spacies, Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, and a few others. And some of these characters still have a hard time dealing with Falcon's speed, and he still has set ups into knee with them. Now, these floaty characters can get comboed to about 75% off of a couple of uair strings, but may manage to avoid the knee follow up. Now it's a matter of avoiding Falcon all together because at 75%, one grab leads into a guaranteed follow up which basically means death. If you're a super floaty, like Samus, you're still not safe. In my experience with Remo, down throw gave me enough time to jump to avoid the knee follow up. However, at this point, it just because a matter of reading if I was going to jump or not, thus making it a 50/50 chance that he would kill me at 90%. It got to a point where it was generally unfun to play against even though I was winning.

Overall, I feel like the character is lacking a bit of creativity. There is no reason to attempt any kill move other than knee, since a wide variety of his arsenal sets up into it anyway. Plus the angle it hits you at is significantly better than any kill option he has. Lastly, the move itself can kill a large portion of the cast sub 100% from the center of a medium sized stage like Battlefield.

I haven't really thought of a solution yet. I don't think knee should be reworked, as I believe it would upset the masses. Perhaps a change on the growth of his throws to prevent free follow ups at kill percents, but I don't really know.

Am I alone on this one?

**Fun fact by the way. I got bored and decided to see what character's Fsmash hits the hardest in the Home Run Contest at 130%. I disregarded the relevance of angles or time it took to reach its destination, and just went off pure distance, as this was mostly for fun. Captain Falcon's actually snuck in at 4th behind only Bowser, Ike, and D3.

 

[Foo]

Pit is horrible guys wtf

Like, his whole thing was "Yeah I lack immediate kill power, but I have the airspeed/flexibility to go offstage and confirm kills through WoP-eqse combos, and harass you enough with arrows to get damage and stagger game to set up my favored situations." But then the same tools that were meant to let him confirm into these combos were what made him so stupid on stage. Side-b got neutrered, dthrow isn't free everything anymore, Fair got nerfed so it has more endlag and harder to covert off of (although knockback did get reduced so its a better combo tool i guess) and arrows got nerfed. Then Dtilt was given 5 extra frames of start up and the sweetspot changes so CC dtilt is horribad now. Then everything else got nerfed.

Like he is still there and has things going for him, like olimar, but they don't work well. His recovery is sub par, he can't kill outright and going deep for the kills is both harder and2x more of a commitment, he struggles to confirm off anything anymore, he's really bad.

Some of this is probably hyperbole, but I thinks hes horrendous. If any Pit players want to come in and say otherwise I'd love to hear what they think this character actually has left. Honestly Puff is in a much better spot than pit right now, even though people tend to put puff in bottom 5 (different conversation, but I think puff is like, dead center mid tier this update).

UPSMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH. HE KILLS WITH UPSMAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH Seriously, pits upsmash is amazing. Also, he can still do pretty much all of those things, just less effectively. Fair is pretty much the same for edguarding, it's just a tiny bit different frame wise and has less base, but slightly more scaling knockback. Also, his recovery is FAR from mediocre. He's floaty with multi jumps and can fly then do an aerial and jump out of it. His recovery is great. Side-b is hardly neutered. Just keep in mind, pit was arguably the best character 3.02 being a slight underdog against maybe two others. In a patch where everyone got nerfed, him getting nerfed harder doesn't make him crap. The problem if that pit plays differently now. His BnB changed and so did a lot of frame data, so he feels icky to people who played pit in 3.02, but if you figure out how to play him in 3.5, he's still good. Oh, also Dthrow is a great tech chase throw (a lot like zss dthrow but minus the extra lag and with a better angle), has a DI mixup with upthrow, and is one of the best offstage throws in the game. I could be wrong about some stuff I said, but I've just observed this from watching the only pit main I know of play. So I'll call him out to talk about pit from a much less ignorant point of view.

Overall, I'd say he's middle of the cast. He feels good or average at just about everything with multijumps and good speed. Hard to make a character with his movement bad imo.

@ Sharkz come explain how pit works



@ Boiko Falcon being focused on knee isn't as problematic as you are saying imo. Knee is the end goal, but getting there is what requires creativity. It's very easy to miss ways to combo into knee, and there are so many options that do combo into knee (you forgot strong knee, nair, reverse bair, and dtilt btw lol) that it's real easy to choose the wrong one. imo, the problem with falcon right now is that his recovery may be a bit too good and his grab game is way too good. Now, you may be thinking "You think falcon recovery is OP wtf are you ****ing insane?!" I'm not saying it's OP, it's just falcon needs a weakness like that to keep with character identity. He really IS a glass cannon complete with balls recovery and tech rolls, but his recovery isn't balls enough atm.

Main thing is though, there's no reason he should be able to link knee out of throw against basically everybody whenever he wants. THAT"S something that messes up creativity. Why do cool combos and outplay when I can just spam DD grab into knee at 40% for a kill.

 

[Sharkz]

Yeah I'm not the best at discussing characters, but I'll see if I can give my general thoughts in a minute.

 

[Boiko]

@ Boiko Falcon being focused on knee isn't as problematic as you are saying imo. Knee is the end goal, but getting there is what requires creativity. It's very easy to miss ways to combo into knee, and there are so many options that do combo into knee (you forgot strong knee, nair, reverse bair, and dtilt btw lol) that it's real easy to choose the wrong one. imo, the problem with falcon right now is that his recovery may be a bit too good and his grab game is way too good. Now, you may be thinking "You think falcon recovery is OP wtf are you ****ing insane?!" I'm not saying it's OP, it's just falcon needs a weakness like that to keep with character identity. He really IS a glass cannon complete with balls recovery and tech rolls, but his recovery isn't balls enough atm.

Main thing is though, there's no reason he should be able to link knee out of throw against basically everybody whenever he wants. THAT"S something that messes up creativity. Why do cool combos and outplay when I can just spam DD grab into knee at 40% for a kill.

I guess that's really the root of the problem, is that his grab game is too good and too easily converts into death. If someone pulls out a crazy unique combo, I'm all for it. But just grabbing someone and being able to kill them at stupid low percents is silly to me. *coughFoxcough*

 

[PlateProp]

I guess that's really the root of the problem, is that his grab game is too good and too easily converts into death. If someone pulls out a crazy unique combo, I'm all for it. But just grabbing someone and being able to kill them at stupid low percents is silly to me. *coughFoxcough*

I find it weird that you never said anything about stomp's ridiculous hitstun

 

[Boiko]

I find it weird that you never said anything about stomp's ridiculous hitstun

That's because my character's dair is faster and has similar hitstun. <__________<

 

[PlateProp]

That's because my character's dair is faster and has similar hitstun. <__________<

Goddamn bias

 

[didds]

yea, but your character has weak knees and a slow jump

 

[Foo]

I find it weird that you never said anything about stomp's ridiculous hitstun

All grounded spikes/meteor's are like that. I don't know for sure why, but it's probably because bouncing off the ground reduces how far you are sent, but the calculated knockback gives you much more hitstun. So, you have the same hitstun as a move that would have killed you off the top, but are only sent into convenient knee range.

 

[PlateProp]

All grounded spikes/meteor's are like that. I don't know for sure why, but it's probably because bouncing off the ground reduces how far you are sent, but the calculated knockback gives you much more hitstun. So, you have the same hitstun as a move that would have killed you off the top, but are only sent into convenient knee range.

Um no. No other meteor/spike puts you in as much hitstun as Falcon's. Not even Ganon's stomp

Edit: If Ganon stomp had the same hitstun he would have Ez mode fairs like Falcon

 

[didds]

Falcon probably does the most squats

 

[CyberZixx]

What FOO said. All metors are good like that, just Falcon's is the best for it. I do mind stomp Knee. But if we toned down throw into knee i'd not complain. No other character besides fox really has that anymore.

 

[Ripple]

ganon's stomp puts you in the most stun because it scales the most and does far more damage than falcons

 

[PlateProp]

ganon's stomp puts you in the most stun because it scales the most and does far more damage than falcons

Why am I able to escape a ganon stomping me but not a falcon stomp > kneeing me at the same percent then?

 

[Foo]

Ganon has more landing lag, longer jummpsquat, shorter jumps, and slower aerials. Ganon stomp hits you too high for follow ups a lot of the time.

 

[PlateProp]

Ganon has more landing lag, longer jummpsquat, shorter jumps, and slower aerials. Ganon stomp hits you too high for follow ups a lot of the time.

I mean in the sense that i'm actually able to jump away and not float in the air for five minutes while Falcon does the laziest jumps ever and just knees

 

[CyberZixx]

I don't see the massive issue. A knee is not the easiest move to land, so why not allow him a tool to get solid kills at a lot of precents? Not like other characters don't have that. If we got rid of the grab's ease of following Falcon would not gets knees so easily even with the knee.

 

[Foo]

I mean in the sense that i'm actually able to jump away and not float in the air for five minutes while Falcon does the laziest jumps ever and just knees

Because that's not what actually happens. Bias is a thing

If we got rid of the grab's ease of following Falcon would not gets knees so easily even with the knee.

sigged lmao

 

[Jacob29]

You would have known about up smash then.

I don't get what you're getting at.

I do know about Fox up-smash. But just because something was nerfed doesn't mean it's now fine.




@ Boiko

I was wondering, how do you think Ness does against Bowser specifically? It was, in my opinion, really Ness favoured in 3.0. Dunno about now. I also wasn't as good as a player then.

But being a fatass with an 8 frame jump squat vs a projectile that activates on shield and locks him into place was pretty damn based.

 

[didds]

easy kill setups from grab will always be an issue when that character is fast.

no one complains about ganon's throws leading into death since he can't just sprint up and grab you from anywhere.

 

[Binary Clone]

I don't see the massive issue. A knee is not the easiest move to land, so why not allow him a tool to get solid kills at a lot of precents? Not like other characters don't have that. If we got rid of the grab's ease of following Falcon would not gets knees so easily even with the knee.

A knee is not the easiest move to land

I suppose if you take that literally, you're technically correct.

 

[PlateProp]

Because that's not what actually happens. Bias is a thing

Except it is otherwise Ganon would be getting ez mode fairs for days, lcanceled stomp on him isint that slow

Edit: Ganon doesnt even have to jump as high either, his fair hitbox starts behind his head

 

[CyberZixx]

I suppose if you take that literally, you're technically correct.

I meant stomp, sorry. That requires a read.

 

[Deleted member]

I've come to realize that the best kill move in PM does no damage.

 

[Boiko]

@ Boiko

I was wondering, how do you think Ness does against Bowser specifically? It was, in my opinion, really Ness favoured in 3.0. Dunno about now. I also wasn't as good as a player then.

But being a fatass with an 8 frame jump squat vs a projectile that activates on shield and locks him into place was pretty damn based.

I'n 3.02 god was it miserable for Bowser.

Now, I still think it favors Ness pretty heavily, but Bowser does have a lot of tools to punish a Ness playing the MU incorrectly.

What I generally do against Bowser is space with PK Fire. Considering he is such a big target with laggy moves, it's still easy to safely spam in the MU. I'll wait until he actually gets caught in the pillar or until he does something punishable and I'll go in with fair>grab. Depending on percents and stage position, I'll either dthrow, fthrow, or bthrow. The former to get more damage, the latter two to put him off stage. Once Bowser is offstage, I literally edge guard with PK Fire. I just keep shooting it at him, like 6 or 7 times, because he generally can't escape and can only SDI closer to the stage. Once he's within a reasonable range of the stage I'll attempt to edge guard him with dsmash, dair, or just draping the yo-yo. Or if I feel that he's going for sweet spot, I'll grab ledge>drop off magnet>bair. To summarize, in neutral, I never let him in, Ness is too quick and controls too much space against a slow character like Bowser specifically that he can dictate the flow of the match. So it's really important to get that small stage and force your way in.

You already know what Bowser can do against Ness, I'm sure. But here is what I've experienced played DarkBlues and Deff. First of all, Ness doesn't have very safe shield pressure, especially not against Bowser's upb OoS. If Ness tries to be aggro, this shuts down almost all of his approached. Next, Bowser's bair from the ledge sends Ness at a miserable angle and it hits him out of his recovery. It's pretty safe to just keep throwing out until Ness is dead, because there really isn't much he can do about it, having one of the more linear recoveries in the game.


By the way, have you guys ever seen the weird interaction if you hit Tink's boomerang with Bowser's fire on the first three frames of the boomerang coming out? It literally just spins in the fire forever until the Bowser decides to end it, then he gets hit, lolol.

 

[Deleted member]

wow zach youre a jerk

 

[Boiko]

I've come to realize that the best kill move in PM does no damage.

Would your avatar be some sort of indicator?

 

[Ripple]

Except it is otherwise Ganon would be getting ez mode fairs for days, lcanceled stomp on him isint that slow

Edit: Ganon doesnt even have to jump as high either, his fair hitbox starts behind his head

lets make this easy for people to understand.

what happens when Falcon stomps a Fox at 100%? how far does he go? he still combos into knee right?

now lets compare it to a move that does 6% more damage, more BKB, and possibly faster growth on a fox at 100%.

fox nearly dies.

in order to have similar stun fox would need to be probably 20-30% lower comapred to the falcon situation

 

[Foo]

Except it is otherwise Ganon would be getting ez mode fairs for days, lcanceled stomp on him isint that slow

Edit: Ganon doesnt even have to jump as high either, his fair hitbox starts behind his head

The main reason is that the % where ganon's stomp connects to fair is not the % where fair kills off of it. Ganon's stomp hits really high and he cannot jump high at all. Both of his jumps are practically short hops.

 

[pkblaze]

Fox is not centralized around shine. Flaco is.

You take away fox's shine and you still have a character with an amazing grab game and multiple ways to kill you off the top. He just wants to cross up your shield instead of shining it, and he loses some gimping power.

He's kind of like a smaller falcon who wants to kill you off the top instead of the side and trades range for lasers or something like that.

Falco without a shine loses hella combo ability, and much of his ability to deal with shields cuz literally nothing he gets off of grab is real. He basically defaults to super lame laser camping and AC bair/uptilt walling stuff, I think.

Basically, I'm saying if you remove shine from both spacies without any sort of compensation, falco suffers way more. Imo that shows that falco's more centralized around shine than fox is.

I dunno, maybe of you have a different definition of centralized then fox is pretty centralized around shine. But I think that thought experiment does show what's wrong with fox. He has this insane, arguably broken move and he would still be a great character without it.

 

[Player -0]

I've come to realize that the best kill move in PM does no damage.

You're late lol.

Also Plate, a lot of other meteors/spikes do a ton of hitstun like Falcon's stomp. 88lailyH (kappa) explained why. Look at Peach's D-Tilt. She has a jump as slow as Bowser and she still gets followups.

 

[Juushichi]

I've come to realize that the best kill move in PM does no damage.

You only found out about it 2-3 years after @TheReflexWonder did.

Truly a man before his time.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Seriously people, there is no way to alter the amount of hitstun. All meteors (and spikes?, I forget) hit you into the ground, so you receive 80% of the knockback, but 100% of the hitstun. That's why Falcon Stomp is so good for combos. Ganondorfs Dair (and Ness, and Lucas, and a bunch of others) have the same properties with different knockback.

 

[Foo]

Seriously people, there is no way to alter the amount of hitstun. All meteors (and spikes?, I forget) hit you into the ground, so you receive 80% of the knockback, but 100% of the hitstun. That's why Falcon Stomp is so good for combos. Ganondorfs Dair (and Ness, and Lucas, and a bunch of others) have the same properties with different knockback.

Is 80% the exact number?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Is 80% the exact number?

That's the number that I remembered and I'm usually pretty good about that, but it could be wrong. I'll double check.

*edit* According to some wiki's, its 80%. Haven't found anything else more reliable.

 

[TreK]

I was told on stage meteors had 1.3 times the hitstun, which is not far from what you claim

Any data freak to test it in debug mode/find it on the wiki ?

 

[jtm94]

While we're talking about Falcon throws it might be worth talking about how Sonic has Falcon's throws, but better hedgeguarding