Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

DDD better be low tier

 

[Boiko]

Ness better not be low tier.

 

[trash?]

give me one good reason ness isn't just the poor man's lucas

like you used to have a good pressure tool in sideb and now you don't even really have that

 

[steelguttey]

better djc

better horizontal kill moves

better projectile on hit

fair

dtilt

 

[GP&B]

Also he has a hat

 

[Juushichi]

Sometimes he looks like a bumblebee.

 

[Boiko]

give me one good reason ness isn't just the poor man's lucas

like you used to have a good pressure tool in sideb and now you don't even really have that

PK Fire is still good. I can't tell you how many top level players I catch with pivot PK Fire as a DD mix up (including Envy, Zubat, JReed, June, and more). Guaranteed combo strings off of a grab or a fair on 90% of the cast (sans super floaties). His dtilt is such a good option that I feel only Stereo and I utilize. Seriously, dtilt>into immediate djc dair is teched about 5% of the time. Which of course leads to a jab reset and more stomp combos. Ness has so many different guaranteed combo mix ups on a majority of the cast that he can guarantee himself anywhere from 40-80% off of one grab depending on how soon they're able to get out. Usually his best bet is to put his opponent into an edge guard situation, where he has a lot of tools as well. Down smash, ftilt, magnet, pkt, pkflash, pkfire, rising nair, rising dair, or a combination of any of these can be used to edge guard. Some options are safer than others, like down smash almost certainly guarantees death against characters that have a hard time sweet spotting, like Diddy, and it travels so far off the stage that it covers a lot of different recovery options. He has solid ledge options if he happens to be caught on the ledge. Not sure if you're familiar with ledge jump cancel, but Ness can DJC his ledge jump into an invincible/immediate fair, nair, dair, or uair or bair, which won't come out but will instead give him lagless landing so he can shield, jab, or dtilt while invincible. This is also a great tool for punishing tethers, as it's pretty much a guaranteed dair>uair/bair/nair follow up. Ness also has great footstool usage. Magnet>footstool, fair off stage>footstool, dair to pop up>foot stool>late dair (for techs), and if he lands a footstool on stage, he can djc>anything for a free follow up. And yes, I use footstool on stage. It's a weirdly good option against someone who can't get out of PKF pillars.

Ness also has a good amount of solid match ups at the top tier level. He doesn't lose badly if at all to Fox, Wolf, Falco, Diddy or Roy. His hardest MUs at top tier level are probably Sheik, Marth, Falcon, or Samus. Sheik and Falcon being hard, but not so bad. Marth and Samus being solidly difficult but relatively rare in tournament play.

Ness is a bad combo weight, and his recovery is trash tier if your opponent knows how to punish it, or if the stage just sucks (shout outs to losing a tournament set because Randal came out and took my PKT). He also has stubby little limbs, but his insane air speed with DJC allows him to get in fast and if you camp the right zone against your opponent, getting in shouldn't be all too difficult at all.

I'm at work, or else I'd explain things more. I've said this before but I'll say it again. VaNz is the only person who ranked Ness as a high tier character. He also has tons of experience with the two of the best Ness mains in me and Stereo. Probably not a coincidence.

 

[Player -0]

Not a lot of Marth mains?

 

[Boiko]

Not a lot of Marth mains?

Not a lot of GOOD Marth mains.

 

[ChiePet]

I think Bowser is better than people give credit for. <__<

I'm not saying he's like, super good or anything, just slept on.

super late on this but worst case scenario BOWSERS ALWAYS GOT METAL CAVERN

Auto-Win stage MU's against the cast

 

[CyberZixx]

That stage has not been legal in forever.

 

[trash?]

I remember complaining about that in 2013 when every tournament for PM thought having 15 stages legal was a good idea

bowser still gets at least one free counterpick out of FoD/WW/YS though, being that the opponent can only ban two stages and all

 

[Ripple]

bowser having an actual CP regardless of bans isn't a bad thing though.

 

[eideeiit]

I'm at work, or else I'd explain things more. I've said this before but I'll say it again. VaNz is the only person who ranked Ness as a high tier character. He also has tons of experience with the two of the best Ness mains in me and Stereo. Probably not a coincidence.

Then again, how high would he rank other considered-low-tier characters if he had experience against good ones? Olimar was like 10th on Neon's 3.02 tier list for god's sake.

 

[GabPR]

Come to think of it... Bowser can be a top tier Secondary character. Think about it... You main a character that does bad on small stages, so normally you HAVE to ban those, But, lets say you second bowser. You can at least leave yoshis on and your opponent will think something like "lol that stage is bad for him". Proceed to change to Bowser and see the fear in his eyes.

 

[ChiePet]

Wolf's neutral is definitely viable. It doesn't seem that way until you implement a well-developed and executed laser game; not lasering with Wolf is kinda like not lasering with Falco, though not quite as much of a detriment because of stuff like DD grab, Dash Attack, and spaced Bair are still pretty good. Laserless Wolf would probably still be in the top 10-ish characters IMO. With the laser, he's easily top tier (or in the tier below Fox-only tier lol).

I'm currently working on my own tier list and plan to post it fairly soon, probably by tomorrow afternoon. Just need to think on it and maybe write out a lil bit of rationale for any particularly controversial placements, though I think most people are coming around to the general conclusions that Lunchables and I share.

waiting patiently for your opinions/tier list, but curious; What are wolf's bad MUs? I'd guess Fox, but there are always those cases like DK vs Marth/Roy/Falcon kinda things.

 

[ChiePet]

Come to think of it... Bowser can be a top tier Secondary character. Think about it... You main a character that does bad on small stages, so normally you HAVE to ban those, But, lets say you second bowser. You can at least leave yoshis on and your opponent will think something like "lol that stage is bad for him". Proceed to change to Bowser and see the fear in his eyes.

think i said this in another forums but Bowser is the reason why Metal Cavern is banned in competitive stage selection; Auto-win stage. Always fear the Down B JC UAir.

EDIT: Or maybe a few posts ago, WHOOPS.
#GotEm

 

[trash?]

bowser having an actual CP regardless of bans isn't a bad thing though.

it's arguably the only way you can reasonably main bowser

otherwise you're going up against ivysaur or marth or roy on FD all the time and then what're you gonna do

 

[Jacob29]

I don't get how metal cavern is an auto win..

Yeah it is small, but the platform is at an awkward height for him to waveland. Other character thrive off of small spaces too, he isn't the only one.

Also..

boo hoo a character does well on a counter pick ((

Come to think of it... Bowser can be a top tier Secondary character. Think about it... You main a character that does bad on small stages, so normally you HAVE to ban those, But, lets say you second bowser. You can at least leave yoshis on and your opponent will think something like "lol that stage is bad for him". Proceed to change to Bowser and see the fear in his eyes.

Yeah Bowser does well as a pocket pick.

 

[GabPR]

I don't get how metal cavern is an auto win..

Yeah it is small, but the platform is at an awkward height for him to waveland. Other character thrive off of small spaces too, he isn't the only one.

Also..

boo hoo a character does well on a counter pick ((



Yeah Bowser does well as a pocket pick.

Not only that, but it actually puts you in a considerable advantage. Depending on MU you could leave all small stages on and ban other nuisances for your main, which would put your opponent to two extremes, be at a disadvantage against your best character (which can be considerable) or be at a very big disadvantage against a Bowser secondary (which is known to dominate small stages.)

 

[trash?]

I already explained why metal cavern is banned over yonder

TLDR: it's a weird stage, in a game where we already have 10 fantastic stages and we do worse with any more

 

[Jacob29]

Yes don't think I am advocating for Metal Cavern to be legal. I don't really want it to be as I don't think it's a good stage.

 

[Deleted member]

Not a lot of GOOD Marth mains.

and even fewer that also understand the ness MU

but that also goes both ways

 

[Soft Serve]

waiting patiently for your opinions/tier list, but curious; What are wolf's bad MUs? I'd guess Fox, but there are always those cases like DK vs Marth/Roy/Falcon kinda things.

Fox/falco are probably his worst 2. Samus is bad for him too, then probably Rob. I don't think he loses any other mus, or enough that stage choice doesn't shift the mu, but peach/ddd/m2/maybe gnw are even or close to even imo

 

[steelguttey]

idk if falco beats him

 

[Frost | Odds]

I remember complaining about that in 2013 when every tournament for PM thought having 15 stages legal was a good idea

bowser still gets at least one free counterpick out of FoD/WW/YS though, being that the opponent can only ban two stages and all

Uh, in my local scene we get 3 bans from the bottom 2 rows. This isn't normal?

 

[Deleted member]

i think the time has come for me to attempt a standardized ruleset

will post later today

 

[Ripple]

3 bans is excessive as it gets rid of a lot of CP that characters would pick.

 

[Boiko]

I'm a supporter of the 10 stages 2 ban rule with a mix of Smashville, PS2, Battlefield, Dream Land, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Melee, Yoshi's Brawl, Warioware, FD, and FoD as neutrals/CPs depending on your preference.

 

[PlateProp]

We get 3 bans, everystage in bottom two minus skyworld and lylat

Best stagelist ever

 

[mimgrim]

My region does 3 bans, unfortunately, with the bottom middle 5 stages being starts and the bottom 2 rows, barring Lylat and Skyworld, are CPs. I don't really care for the stage list/rules. But eh. Is what it is.

Also any ban pass 1 is excessive. Banning a stage is suppose to be for player preference, as in what is the one stage you absolutely don't want to play on, and allowing more bans defeats the purpose of CPing.

 

[PlateProp]

My region does 3 bans, unfortunately, with the bottom middle 5 stages being starts and the bottom 2 rows, barring Lylat and Skyworld, are CPs. I don't really care for the stage list/rules. But eh. Is what it is.

Also any ban pass 1 is excessive. Banning a stage is suppose to be for player preference, as in what is the one stage you absolutely don't want to play on, and allowing more bans defeats the purpose of CPing.

You do realize that our stagelist would be awful if we only had two bans right?


We're switching to the ****ty aftershock one to prep for it this week anyways, so lamea

 

[Soft Serve]

Yoshis melee and wario ware are the exact same stage other than top platform And Randell. I don't think they should both be on the same list.
Also I don't understand where the hate for lylat comes from, other than people sucking at recovery because they can't just aim more into the stage and slide up for free

 

[bec]

You do realize that our stagelist would be awful if we only had two bans right?


We're switching to the ****ty aftershock one to prep for it this week anyways, so lamea

mind if i ask what you dont like about the aftershock stagelist?

 

[mimgrim]

You do realize that our stagelist would be awful if we only had two bans right?

It’s already awful.

 

[PlateProp]

mind if i ask what you dont like about the aftershock stagelist?

It has skyworld, no ys, , dp is a starter same time as ps2

Edit:said no norfair for some reason, fixd

 

[Boiko]

Yoshis melee and wario ware are the exact same stage other than top platform And Randell. I don't think they should both be on the same list.
Also I don't understand where the hate for lylat comes from, other than people sucking at recovery because they can't just aim more into the stage and slide up for free

Personally, I like Lylat.

Signed,
A Ness main

 

[bec]

It has skyworld, no ys, , dp is a starter same time as ps2

Edit:said no norfair for some reason, fixd

what should the starter be in place of DP? dreamland 64 is a dumb starter imo
agree on skyworld being dumb, disagree on excluding yoshi's story... there's already WW, FoD and GHZ for tiny stages
norfair is hardly a real stage, i personally like it but its so easy to circle camp on

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

#LEGALIZEMETALCAVERN

but really

 

[Ripple]

the perfect starter stage list should be 3 "average" size stage, 2 small, and 2 larger.

CP stages should have an equal amount of average, to small, to large ratio.