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Tier List Speculation

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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she's nowhere near the top tiers at all, i only use her for super CPs or teams cuz of how good I am with sheik in melee on CPs and teams, but she's definitely nowhere near as good as in melee. Many of her best things (down smash and recovery and KO power and gimps) are worse, and all the other chars are a lot better. Wolf i think is super underrated. I've played a lot of wolfs and any time I get hit I get death comboed. People will be quick to say I don't know the MU but I've played quite a few wolves and I know what he does pretty well I just think he's INSANELY good/underrated atm. I guess think w/e you want but that's definitely what I think.

edit - strongbad idk what's true or not but I'm merely posting EXACTLY what toph/wizzy just told me on facebook within the past hour. I don't make things up; I say what I think or what I'm told.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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I wouldn't say Wolf is underrated, most people seem to think he's in the top 10 pretty easily. And yeah came here to say exactly what SB said after doing some research.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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i do not give a **** who told you what. those are the facts, now stop spreading misinformation. thanks.

wolf is easily top 8 in the game and most of PM's actual players have thought this for the majority of the calendar year. i don't know who you are trying to argue with. wolf is great and that's great.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
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edit - strongbad idk what's true or not but I'm merely posting EXACTLY what toph/wizzy just told me on facebook within the past hour. I don't make things up; I say what I think or what I'm told.
Then you need to tell those two guys that [CITATION NEEDED]

Every single person in the BR has a Wii.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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It's not that we think you are lying, you just need to check your sources before posting incriminating things.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
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Messages
11,263
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Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
BUT WHEN I POSTED IT, I said "this person said this" and cited my sources because how am i going to check it when I'm not in the BR and was refused. BOTH OF THEM then told me misinformation if what you are all saying is correct, which is not fair to blame me on if that's not accurate
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
Hey, to clarify, I told M2K that SW quit being involved with the PMBR because he was tired of arguing about balance issues in general; M2K misinterpreted that as me telling him that SW quit specifically because of Wolf-related issues which isn't the case.

So yeah, just to clarify and all that. Sorry for confusion.


Edit: And I don't really want to get involved in this discussion because lol but you guys should probably listen to M2K when it comes to gameplay/balance issues more than you currently do.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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BUT WHEN I POSTED IT, I said "this person said this" and cited my sources because how am i going to check it when I'm not in the BR and was refused. BOTH OF THEM then told me misinformation if what you are all saying is correct, which is not fair to blame me on if that's not accurate

You could ask someone who is actually in the PMBR who you feel will be honest with you, or you can ask two people to cross-reference.
 

Wizzrobe

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
2,280
Location
Florida
so i dont even understand what this even has to do with tier lists or anything, but here:

all of this is false information. the only thing SW suggested was fixing a bug in wolf's downb coding which allowed him to shine during an initial dash (instead of requiring a frame perfect shine after jump), which was fixed in the version immediately following the suggestion. whatever SW's reasons for becoming completely inactive for 6+ months at a time were, it wasn't due to anything like that.

i don't know what wizzrobe's sources are, but literally every single PMBR member personally owns a wii, and we declined armada for similar reasons.

There are multiple PMBR members I have known who don't own a Wii, How can you even be certain that every member owns a Wii when they apply, ppl can just lie about this stuff when applying.
 

Lawn Chair

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
321
Everything I agree with is italicized

There are multiple PMBR members I have known who don't own a Wii, How can you even be certain that every member owns a Wii when they apply, ppl can just lie about this stuff when applying.
 

RebazTalei

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
148
There are multiple PMBR members I have known who don't own a Wii, How can you even be certain that every member owns a Wii when they apply, ppl can just lie about this stuff when applying.

It is kinda saddening to know that beta testers and people who actually are busy working on this game do not own a wii to actually "test" this game. where are going with this? this is really sad.
 

Archangel

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I agree with Umbreon. Shiek is amazing. But Sheilda is better.

Shielda is amazing in theory. Especially considering the counterpick game they can play. However, Nobody has emerged at a top level with both...yet.


M2K wanna give it a shot? As for what MU's are good for Zelda....you might want to go to the Zelda section for that.

@ playtesting....I remember asking to playtest...granted at the time I just wanted to playtest pit again lol. Still, I was sad when I found I I was declined but I understood why. I don't know how to code anything....I was a little bit sad when others who had no idea how to code, had no wii/means of playing continuously, didn't take a competitive future in Project M serious, had an IQ of 90, were douchebag("look at what I got") people...etc, were chosen by the PMBR to join. I mean, I honestly didn't care that it wasn't me that was chosen. However, there were some very long term committed people who would've put serious work into playtesting this game and they were kind of **** on....I think I speak for all of us when I say...you hurt our feelings man.

@ topic

Wolf placements?

I'm pretty sure I had Wolf at 6th or 7th..?
 

Lawn Chair

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
321
It is kinda saddening to know that beta testers and people who actually are busy working on this game do not own a wii to actually "test" this game. where are going with this? this is really sad.

They develop this mod and they are the only ones that get to beta test it, how do they beta test their mod if they don't even own the system they developed the mod for?
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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There are multiple PMBR members I have known who don't own a Wii, How can you even be certain that every member owns a Wii when they apply, ppl can just lie about this stuff when applying.
Such as.... who exactly?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
i think putting wolf in the top 8 is reasonable but i think i have him at exactly 9th? he's certainly no fox/falco though.

i don't think sheik's recovery gimps are worse and i think her kill power is actually better because conversion > aerial combos are easier links. she also handles broken neutral games better since her neutral isn't designed around beating a broken mechanic (dashdance) anymore and ice climbers don't exist. she also has more CP options to take advantage of in a real tournament set since her character flexibility allows her to adapt much better than most characters do to non-neutral stages, particularly small stages where crouching is an easy way to take stage back to establish positional advantage under weird platforms. i don't know that her downsmash is worse but even if it is it's not worse enough to be significant for what you're trying to do with it (edge guard / "get off me").

idk i think sheik is bonkers, i have her @ 2nd SLIGHTLY behind fox and even that might be wrong. the character is just the nuts everywhere.

edit: i'd like to see the pmbr too but i bet it's pretty frustrating. i think i can post in the general public and know that enough people are reading it to not feel bad.
 

Archangel

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i think putting wolf in the top 8 is reasonable but i think i have him at exactly 9th? he's certainly no fox/falco though.

i don't think sheik's recovery gimps are worse and i think her kill power is actually better because conversion > aerial combos are easier links. she also handles broken neutral games better since her neutral isn't designed around beating a broken mechanic (dashdance) anymore and ice climbers don't exist. she also has more CP options to take advantage of in a real tournament set since her character flexibility allows her to adapt much better than most characters do to non-neutral stages, particularly small stages where crouching is an easy way to take stage back to establish positional advantage under weird platforms. i don't know that her downsmash is worse but even if it is it's not worse enough to be significant for what you're trying to do with it (edge guard / "get off me").

idk i think sheik is bonkers, i have her @ 2nd SLIGHTLY behind fox and even that might be wrong. the character is just the nuts everywhere.

edit: i'd like to see the pmbr too but i bet it's pretty frustrating. i think i can post in the general public and know that enough people are reading it to not feel bad.


Holy crap! 2nd!?

how is a slightly nerfed sheik suddenly better than Falco? not asking that in a ******** way either I want to know how Sheik is better than everybody in the game accept for Fox. I just wanna know. With extreme detail because this peaked the hell out of my interest.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Feb 12, 2006
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Well, you figure Falco could be worse off with new anti laser tools given, with all the Spacie combo/throw/nastiness/ edgeguarding than has been given, and possibly more diverse stage list not making him as universally good. On the more subtle scale, it's hard to fully grasp how much the shield pushback changes/differences hurt his pressure and how well he can respond to things on shield (making shield grab less effective, and making it harder to land shine OOS). Sticky Techrolls may be a negative as well, bit hard to judge totally as it's a pro and con depending on situation.

I don't think it's about Falco suddenly losing to a bunch of characters, but whether he's as dominant in his MU's as before. Like if you take Fox/Falco/Sheik and compared their overall MU spreads, you may find that they basically beat the same people, but Fox and Sheik would have a lot more +2's in their favor where as Falco may be a lot more +1's.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Holy crap! 2nd!?

how is a slightly nerfed sheik suddenly better than Falco? not asking that in a ****head way either I want to know how Sheik is better than everybody in the game accept for Fox. I just wanna know. With extreme detail because this peaked the hell out of my interest.

better than or worse than are concepts reflected within tier lists that assumes goodness is relative. typically in these kinds of discussions we say "character A has this attribute and it is good" but that sidesteps the idea of that goodness being relative. in this case, i'm not going to tell you "sheik has needles and they are really good". i'm going to tell you that i think sheik is relatively better than any other character in terms of goodness- except for fox. this is implicit of the summation of those attributes into a more wholesome assessment of the character and what they have to offer compared to other members of the cast. they are similar, but not the same.

for me to say that sheik is better than falco suggests that i think that sheik's overall relative goodness is able to offer more than falco's relative goodness. i believe that falco has more difficulty against the cast at large than sheik does. this is not to say that i think sheik beats falco, or that falco's characteristic A is better than sheik's Characteristic B. those are highly debatable and complex ideas and i dare not go there.

to me, PM sheik is not nerfed at all. i see her changes as minute or trivial, and the few that exist, i see as overall beneficial within the context of this game. i've made it pretty clear at this point that i think her throw game is BETTER in PM than it is in melee because the positional advantage gained from 2 good throws is a net gain on having 1 fewer. i don't even think her throws are less reliable because you can play to having an asset other than "this leads to fair every time". to me, sheik's ability to use 2 throws to put the opponent into a poor position and a kill 95% of the time is more useful than having 1 throw even if it leads to a kill 100% of the time. the positional advantages are simply too good to ignore. if i downthrow and my opponent DIs off the stage and i can't fair kill them... i'm still ****ing sheik against a recovering opponent. and now she has 2 throws that do this? regardless of which way i'm facing as long as i'm by the edge, i can set up this losing paradigm for my opponent? what?

PM sheik is basically melee sheik except she has no losing MUs because she doesn't lose to fox or falco in this game, she can handle jigglypuff better, ICs don't exist, and no other losing MUs for her were added from the rest of the cast. the other characters in the cast are generally much more able to handle competing characters like fox and falco, increasing her relative goodness by lowering the relative goodness of her competing top tiers.
 

Archangel

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I almost entirely agree except I feel Fox has more +2's than both Falco and Sheik. I think Sheik has more +2's and +1's than Sheik. I think Sheik and Marth have more +1's and +0's and at times -1s.

@Umbreon...I see your point, I'm not sure I agree entirely but...we'll have to see. I personally think as PM players improve and Melee players warm up to the game/changes...and new techniques/character evolution...I think both sheik and marth are going to join Jigglypuff.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
i love sheik and i've yet to see a better sheik player than myself. not to be cocky, just what i've seen so far which can change at any time. and every time i've lost, i have NEVER felt like it was because of the character. whenever i lose, i feel that i've been outplayed 100% of the time or my inexperience with the opposing character or just me forfeiting because i'm 26 and i can get over my ego lol. but yeah i love it. it gives me the most room to grow as a player if i want to do that. there might come a time when i change my mind, but right now i think fox and sheik are the 2 best, and it's close, and that fox is super slightly better. i could see sheik being the best though pretty easily.
 

ItalianStallion

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 2, 2011
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380
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Springville, CA
Plus, it's important to remember Zelda is pretty amazing on her own, so transforming is entirely viable. Let's say a Sheik player is going up against a Jiggz. Jiggz is giving her a lot of trouble, so she switches to Zelda and outzones Jiggz for the rest of the game for the win. While there may be limited circumstances that transforming would be ideal, I would argue doing so against Jiggz, Ivy, Peach and possibly DDD would greatly help the Sheik player as it seems Zelda covers those match-ups in a much smoother way.

While I'm not entirely convinced Sheik is number two, I agree that PM Sheik is better than Melee Sheik. PM Sheik has way more options, (Transform, Crawl, Wall Cling, 2 Good throws, etc.) and her tool set covers almost the whole cast pretty well.

But Sheik better watch out for Mewtwo. I've lost to too many Sheiks in my Melee days with Mewtwo. I can't wait to get my hands on PM Mewtwo to start my path of revenge.

EDIT:
i love sheik and i've yet to see a better sheik player than myself.
In PM right? Not in general.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
They won't join Jiggs, because she's heavily affected by changing character attributes and she has no real way around it. Like if some character was made, that had 2x the sword size of Ike... (don't ever do dis PMBR) Marth and Sheik still have solid fundamentals to work with. Good ground movement/DD/baiting potential. You tell Jiggs to get past an opponent like that and she has very little recourse or mixup potential for beating it. If you make people with crazy aggression, crazy camping, more overall range, fewer gimpable recoveries, and toss in a variety of new stages where she may not be able to prove her edge besides hardcore running away, it's hard for her to stay relevant. You ask Marth, Sheik, or Fox to deal with these realities, and they step up to the plate much better.
 

ItalianStallion

Smash Journeyman
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They won't join Jiggs, because she's heavily affected by changing character attributes and she has no real away around it. Like if some character was made, that had 2x the sword size of Ike, Marth and Sheik still have solid fundamentals to work with. Good ground movement/DD/baiting potential. You tell Jiggs to get past an opponent like that and she has very little recourse or mixup potential for beating it. If you make people with crazy aggression, crazy camping, more overall range, fewer gimpable recoveries, and toss in a variety of new stages where she may not be able to prove her edge besides hardcore running away, it's hard for her to stay relevant. You ask Marth, Sheik, or Fox to deal with these realities, and they step up to the plate much better.
Speaking of which, how would you change Jiggz in order to make her more relevant in PM? I understand your point and I agree with you (Although not as heartily because I think there are enough match-ups that she excels with in PM to not make her irrelevant).
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
If MK had an element, it would probably be Light/Lightning
 

Phaiyte

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
932
With all these Bowser mains coming up, I'm so glad that I main mostly Ganon, DK, and D3. Top tier Bowser stompers.
 
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