Tier List Speculation

[Tomaster]

why isn't ness top 10

"fast"

 

[Frost | Odds]

Obligatory "DK isn't that low" post by me, but decent list.

Yeah, it's not totally reflective of my current opinion. I could do a revised version, not super into going to the effort atm though.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

dk/zard/bowser/kirby should all be moved up to jiggs/ivy tier, and squirtle/pit should be moved up a tier

mid/high tiers could use some rearranging but idk that's deep enough the weeds nobody has enough mastery over their characters to warrant that precise of ordering

edit: samus and m2 should switch places

 

[_Chrome]

Guys I made a thing. Take what I put down with a grain of salt: it's late at night after having slept for like 7 hours and being woken up probably by drunk people on the streets. Regardless, I'll have a nice rye and coke after making a tier list I'm proud of. Characters could go up or down about a tier or two depending on your judgments or values, and if you have any suggestions feel free to let me know.

Characters in the A+ and A tiers are really close in terms of viability, and should be considered as characters that could consistently do very well in large tournaments. B and C tiers are still competitive threats, with the ability to go far with characters in the C tier being noticeably less than that of the B tier. D tier is well, eh... and let's not talk about the E tier. I think the lower half of the B tier and the C-E tiers could use buffs or changes that increase their Quality of Life (QoL) or their viability, depending on how far you look down the tier list. I don't know much about Zelda, Yoshi, or Pit, but I do think they're not good at all.

Feel free to flame if you're a jerk, or praise me if you're one of my fans. Also I'm a moron with technology so I took a print screen. Let's have a good discussion.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I propose a ROB nerf of making him immune to swords
it's a nerf because everybody will hate him even more

 

[Life]

I propose a ROB nerf of making him immune to swords
it's a nerf because everybody will hate him even more

good thing pit doesnt have a sword

EDIT: Also, tier list maker is still bugged for me, but if I'm not mistaken it uses some java and I haven't updated java in a while, gonna see if that fixes it

 

[FreeGamer]

Why'd you put Luigi a tier above Mario?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Why'd you put Luigi a tier above Mario?

because luigi is better than mario

it's true in melee, and it's true in PM

pills used to be mario's best asset but frankly the utility and wavelandability of luigi's fireballs mean they're the overall more useful projectile

as for everything else, luigi has just as much kill power as mario does with a whole lot more functional range

being floaty af is merely a sidegrade because it allows luigi to do double aerial shenanigans that mario can't

luigi has stuff that's hilariously safe on shield, movement options that are so far from being optimized and are scary as is, as well as a decent matchup against most of the other "good" characters except falcon and gnw

marth luigi is even at the highest level it's just that it's a whole lot easier for marth at mid to low levels

 

[Nausicaa]

As for the list Odds posted: I think pretty much every character on that list is within 3-5 places of correct

As far as I'm concerned, this is true with a few things done.
Overall though, this probably captures more of the bulk opinion on things than any other list I've seen.
I'd even say it probably captures more of the 'bulk' opinion of people than if Odds updated this list to his current view. ha

Every tier list is controversial to some degree, but this one was fairly well received in rough terms. Left = better

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Eh, I'm not convinced on the whole Mario vs Luigi bit. Luigi fireballs are high when wavelanded it limits their use. Also, double aerials are overstated. Marth can get away with it because of spacing, Luigi shouldn't be able to.

 

[Xykness]

because luigi is better than mario

it's true in melee, and it's true in PM

pills used to be mario's best asset but frankly the utility and wavelandability of luigi's fireballs mean they're the overall more useful projectile

as for everything else, luigi has just as much kill power as mario does with a whole lot more functional range

being floaty af is merely a sidegrade because it allows luigi to do double aerial shenanigans that mario can't

luigi has stuff that's hilariously safe on shield, movement options that are so far from being optimized and are scary as is, as well as a decent matchup against most of the other "good" characters except falcon and gnw

marth luigi is even at the highest level it's just that it's a whole lot easier for marth at mid to low levels

I think people are not used to seeing Luigi at high level play, which is why people tend ot rank him lower. The character is not super popular, but has some amazing abilities to contend with even the best of characters in this game. This is not Melee Luigi. The tech that Project M has brought to Luigi makes him as speedy/tricky as characters like Sonic with an amazing combo/punish game. His biggest downfall is a super linear recovery, but its still pretty good even if it is linear. I would have ranked Mario above Luigi in 3.0, but I think we currently live in a patch where Luigi is above Mario. I think he could even be a top 10-15 character with a little more exposure. Luigi is good.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Alright, spent some time updating my list. It's still not perfect and I'm nonspecifically unhappy with it, but it's closer to my current opinion.

The sharper divide between A and B tiers is intentional; that's around where I think characters become much more situational and less reliable picks.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

because luigi is better than mario

it's true in melee, and it's true in PM

pills used to be mario's best asset but frankly the utility and wavelandability of luigi's fireballs mean they're the overall more useful projectile

as for everything else, luigi has just as much kill power as mario does with a whole lot more functional range

being floaty af is merely a sidegrade because it allows luigi to do double aerial shenanigans that mario can't

luigi has stuff that's hilariously safe on shield, movement options that are so far from being optimized and are scary as is, as well as a decent matchup against most of the other "good" characters except falcon and gnw

marth luigi is even at the highest level it's just that it's a whole lot easier for marth at mid to low levels

Marios grounded range isn't that great, but his aerial range is still pretty good because of his air speed. Luigi is the opposite of that. Mario also gets kill confirms off of throws at pretty much all DI on most characters, which Luigi only gets off of bad/no DI. Waveland fireball isn't really all that great since it takes forever for Luigi to jump and shoot a fireball, so it's pretty easy to expect, and you can just crouch or wait there and hit him when he approaches. And often when wavelanding fireball, the fire ball shoots too high for it to even matter or be a threat. While Luigi's fireballs are good, Marios fireball threatens more and covers more space because of its ability to bounce.


It's hard to say who's better and mus are debatable based on results/character options but I do find that Luigi is more interesting and has more depth than Mario.

 

[Deleted member]

I propose a ROB nerf of making him immune to swords
it's a nerf because everybody will hate him even more

a lot of your boost fairs don't are missing the FF so it's pretty unsafe on block. my guess is that it's more apparent with marth because rob is one of the few characters that can catch marth pants-down out of a DD and actually force him to block (marth isn't supposed to shield almost ever). the character doesnt have much in the way of a shield game so he basically has to shield grab here. i'm guessing you'll find the same on things like mewtwo or sheik when you catch them w/ WD back.

 

[_Chrome]

I would've argued why Luigi is better than Mario but everyone else has pretty much already covered why. I would say the main reason is that almost all of Luigi's moves are safe on shield. He is really difficult to deal with and coupled with the slew of buffs he's received since Melee he is a formidable character.

Also Odds: any reason why Falco is that low on your list? It looks pretty good to me in most other ways.

 

[nimigoha]

More viable floaties I think is the reason people usually cite for Falco not being as good.

 

[eideeiit]

It's so tough saying who's good and who isn't when it's not clear whether we're talking about the current meta, matured but not end game meta or end game. In Falco's case I'd say he's one of the best in the end game as I don't think he has any really negative MUs, though of course I don't know what his MUs will look come end game, if it ever does. In the current meta Falco's frailness IMO leads to him not having any as good low-risk strats as Fox and therefore being more prone to getting matcup'd / caught unawares. Westballz at Paragon? Any comments on the matured meta would require me to define it and I'm not going to go there as I don't feel confident in my opinion or my ability to express it and it's late so whatever.

The point: Falco gud but inconsistent. The exact same mantra as in maylay till 2011 or something.

 

[Ripple]

Odds, Just because I just got into top 8 at another regional like 2 hours ago doesn't mean my character suddenly got 5 spots better. Jeez

 

[_Chrome]

I can agree that more viable floaties would make Falco's life harder. However, is it conceivable that he loses any matchups? I understand a tier placement isn't all about matchups (hence Bowser's placement over Kirby in Melee), but it seems pretty indicative in this circumstance. Falco is largely the same from Melee and if he gained no negative matchups I see no reason why he wouldn't be top tier or at least just outside of the top tier on everybody's tier lists. The stage list doesn't even contribute to Falco having worse placement in this game (unlike Marth); he actually has a lot of good choices in this game (like SV, WL, PS2, DP, Norfair, and Delfino).

 

[Avro-Arrow]

IIRC a few months ago I asked the same question _Chrome and my response was that he didn't actually lose any match ups, and if he did it would be so close to even the disadvantage would be almost negligible. People didn't want him in their top tiers because of the same reason they're citing now; inconsistency and ability to get MU'd. That's the same reason I think Sonic is really difficult to use right now; he has to run into the opponent which means he can easily miss-space his neutral, miss punishes out of neutral, and run into hit boxes easier. Enough about Sonic though (asides from the fact that I think he's a little overrated right now on lists that aren't even talking about end game meta game).

And Luigi is damn good, and one of the characters I'm most afraid of facing in tournament. Not only is his exposure really low (thank you Xykness ) but he threatens a lot of space in neutral with fantastic options on shield, yadda yadda yadda. I too think he's a top 15 character for sure. PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP 's post basically summed it all up. I'd have to ask though, you mention GnW and Falcon as negative; how do y'all Weegees feel about Sheik? Just curious.

As for Odds' list, I unsurprisingly think Luigi's too low, but also Wario and Falco. I think Lucas is a bit high, but that's nitpicking since I'd only move him below Wario/Ike. I think I'll just pull a classic Smashboarder and leave this here without any sort of justification.

 

[DMG]

Falco seems like the oddest PM top tier. Hardly see the character on stream or on top results across all the regions.

 

[Deleted member]

alright so Roy won a regional

best character in the game no questions asked we're giving him 3.5 up b float back get ready

 

[Nausicaa]

Obviously this means Falco is bottom tier in PM as well. No good match-ups, high representation, never makes it out of pools.

 

[DMG]

More importantly, Roy wins the heart of the crowd

 

[Nausicaa]

Captain Falcon does not win their hearts.
He steals them.
Just a big jerk.

 

[DMG]

No Falcon steals wins

I don't beat people, I just steal their chance of winning and somehow they die

Alternatively I die and lose, will investigate one day. Most likely culprit is being bad

 

[nimigoha]

I think Falco loses to ROB but that's just my opinion.

 

[_Chrome]

I could see that being true. ROB is a pretty good space animal slayer as far as I know.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ROB isn't a space animal slayer in 3.6

 

[_Chrome]

Edited my tier list and stuff. Also how does ROB fair against spacies in 3.6? Is the MU at least close to being even still?

 

[G13_Flux]

so ivy wins a regional. people have been underestimating her.

 

[Life]

So Ivysaur just won a fairly large tournament.

Time to burn this whole thread to the ground and start over.

 

[nimigoha]

I loved watching Sothe play. Spaced Fairs are really good.

He also nailed loads of Solarbeams.

Cabbage Marth OP.

 

[Ripple]

Guys youre crazy, if people posting their tier lists means anything. It's that's ivy is one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[Kipcom]

Few things I learned today.

1. Sothe is a god.
2. Ivy is better than I thought she was. Never thought she was BAD, but I do have a more positive outlook on the character. Still don't think she's like high tier.
3. Snake's 14% down throw is hilarious.
4. Ripple's Pit is legendary.

 

[Beorn]

I don't think Ivy is as amazing as this tournament makes her seem. I've always thought she was better than people seem to think though. I'm just gonna post this here. I've been thinking this through since 3.6 came out. It's actually really hard to divide tiers past a certain point. Tiers are divided from left best to right worst.

 

[JesteRace]

Iowa was losing their friggin minds during KOTN4 Grand Finals. Awesome, awesome job to Sothe.

Ivysaur is fine btw.

 

[Bazkip]

_Chrome pls
Use Snipping Tool
Or just crop it in freakin Paint
It's not hard

 

[Saproling]

I'm glad people finally understand how much better Sothe is than Mach. But that really is just it So the litterally is just plain talented he does push ivy to her limits and I'm glad we can see that but prof could have worked more counterplay in. Overall yeah shes mid tier she can't be higher since her MU spread with the top tiers is just plain bad but ivy can win a national with the right bracket. Props to the man.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think that Sothe winning this event clearly makes him better than Machiavelli. Mach has performed well at multiple nationals during 3.6, while Sothe has won a single regional.

Sothe is obviously good, but a single tournament doesn't define a player.