Tier List Speculation

[JOE!]

Just managed to watch KOTN 4. Announcers were losing their **** minds at the end. Anyways based on Sothe's performance does this change perceptions of Ivy a bit?

Dont know the whole story/bracket/etc, but Ivysaur was always a good match for snake even in Brawl. Just my 2c, even still Sothe did awesome.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

solarbeam is good

it's like a sticky except you get it back after you die

also what the hell why didn't prof ever ban ghz lmao

 

[Bushido Brown]

This is not ordered within the tiers, merely grouped. I believe the characters after A- ends are gonna start having a reasonably harder time performing well in tournaments, not to say they can’t or anything like that.


Key explanations:


Squirtle A-: Okay a lot of people in my opinion undervalue this little guy. incredible movement makes for a very strong neutral game, has multiple moves that start combos, he can go deep for edgegaurds, strong recovery, and some early kill setups. while having a pretty good overall match spreads, not really losing to much of the cast. He capitalizes on mistakes really well too, which people do make, especially when considering the overall tournament experience, he can do work.


Falco A-: When I’m thinking about the melee characters its hard for me to not think of it relative to the melee tier list. The are more characters tournament viable in pm, it gives falco a worse matchup spread in general, also his recovery relative to the cast is awful. Falco could be place in A or A-, but I think not A+.

 

[Tomaster]

This is not ordered within the tiers, merely grouped. I believe the characters after A- ends are gonna start having a reasonably harder time performing well in tournaments, not to say they can’t or anything like that.


Key explanations:


Squirtle A-: Okay a lot of people in my opinion undervalue this little guy. incredible movement makes for a very strong neutral game, has multiple moves that start combos, he can go deep for edgegaurds, strong recovery, and some early kill setups. while having a pretty good overall match spreads, not really losing to much of the cast. He capitalizes on mistakes really well too, which people do make, especially when considering the overall tournament experience, he can do work.

Falco A-: When I’m thinking about the melee characters its hard for me to not think of it relative to the melee tier list. The are more characters tournament viable in pm, it gives falco a worse matchup spread in general, also his recovery relative to the cast is awful. Falco could be place in A or A-, but I think not A+.

I think Wolf deserves to be with the top tiers. He has the tools to deal with pretty much anything. Amazing DD with an amazing projectile that lets him control a lot of space. Shine. Incredible combo game that leads to incredible finishers. You could argue that he's a glass canon, but imo punish games on spacies are overrated (except on Falco because he's easy to gimp). A lot of characters don't have the tools to combo spacies at low percents.

Also for GnW if the placement is based on current viability I can definitely see him being top 3, but as far as potential goes I don't think he can be higher than high tier.

 

[Beorn]

Dont know the whole story/bracket/etc, but Ivysaur was always a good match for snake even in Brawl. Just my 2c, even still Sothe did awesome.

This is exactly my thoughts. The tier list I made last page was made while watching grand finals of NWM with Mr. Pickle. We were both just like... "yeah we know ivy's better than people seem to think she is, but this matchup is looking pretty crap for snake." My list reflects this.

Jamble Indeed. Rob and MK are good examples of characters that are ridiculously good yet still underrepresented due to what we have been posting about. Odds, Ripple and Hero of time are examples of great players playing trash characters.(relative to Project M's close tier gaps) Great players putting in the work for these characters is a huge deal for the development of this game. Unfortunately there are still characters being left out in the cold, and because of that we have characters like Olimar, IC's and Kirby that people often have little idea what to do with when making a tier list. Which leads to them being placed far lower much of the time than they may deserve.

Edit: I'm starting to notice a disturbing trend... I main Link and second Pit. I think you guys are all crazy as balls for consistently placing Link above pit. Often well above Pit. Can someone explain this phenomenon? Pit's arrows, grab, dash dance and dash attack alone are a better character than Link.

 

[Bazkip]

Obligatory People had problems with GnW BEFORE paragon

Idk why everyone keeps trying to act like there wasn't complaints before, Paragon just showed it to a bigger audience. And if Dirtboy vs Marshall is any indicator pmdt needs to look at GnW's ledge snap box cause that **** is insane

Source: happens about 15:50

Yo seriously

 

[Beorn]

Yo seriously

DUDE!!!! I was actually in the middle of making this gif myself! Crazy. Yes soooo whats up with this garbage? There are a few other characters with this crap going on.

 

[Ningildo]

Yes, gaw has some questionable things in his toolkit, but those aside, his core isn't really broken. Combo's get less effective with proper DI/SDI, people just need to remember landing hitboxes on some aerials. Bucket braking and that ledge grab box (and maybe some other things that I forgot about) are pretty dumb, though. Is that what people were going on about pre paragon or...?

 

[nimigoha]

DUDE!!!! I was actually in the middle of making this gif myself! Crazy. Yes soooo whats up with this garbage? There are a few other characters with this crap going on.

Such quality.

But yeah free sweet spots with huge margin for error.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Yo seriously

Remember Luigi's 3.5 side b grab box? Now it's on GnW, hooray!

 

[Beorn]

Such quality.

But yeah free sweet spots with huge margin for error.

Don't forget the Ike, Falcon, Diddy, and the rest breh. Also, it's really disgusting that Mario has this going on considering his absolutely bogus recovery options and the 5 ****ing frames of invincibility on his up-b. Not to mention the size of the hitbubbles on it.

 

[Bazkip]

Such quality.

But yeah free sweet spots with huge margin for error.

Here have better pics of this

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[_Chrome]

I remember hearing that bucket braking with Jank&Watch can't be removed or changed... Kind of like the Brawl tethers vs Melee tethers. It's kind of like a glitch. That being said, a character as fast, aggressive, and light as G&W shouldn't be able to live so long.

 

[nimigoha]

Don't forget the Ike, Falcon, Diddy, and the rest breh. Also, it's really disgusting that Mario has this going on considering his absolutely bogus recovery options and the 5 ****ing frames of invincibility on his up-b. Not to mention the size of the hitbubbles on it.

Falcon's are actually bad. This is the frame before he starts descending (so grabs ledge next frame), his leg is all up in there. A dtilt from most characters should stuff this.

Bazkip help!

Also don't be silly, Mario doesn't have 5 intang frames...

He has 7.

 

[Bazkip]

Remember Luigi's 3.5 side b grab box? Now it's on GnW, hooray!

Well they both had those grab boxes then and before, I think that's what they were in Melee actually. They fixed Luigi's, thankfully, but there's definitely some others that could stand to be shifted downwards slightly.

nimigoha pls

It looks like it could go lower, but when I fell for one more frame before pressing upB he actually missed the ledge

 

[Jamble]

Also am I the only one thinking Tink gets a bit too much credit being put consistently around A tier with these recent lists? For a character with such questionable matchups vs key characters like Fox, Wolf, Falco, and Captain Falcon, it seems a little strange. I think his mobility and his projectiles converting a lot better than Link's definitely helps him. His kill moves have the issue of either being incredibly predictable, or lacking much range too. Seeing characters like Samus and Falco who he often shares that tier with, I feel like he's definitely a step below those characters in overall effectiveness (That's not a diss on his effectiveness, he really is a great character). Maybe it's just me, but in a game dominated by an archetype he struggles immensely against, he feels underwhelming compared to other character he's put on a relatively even level with. I think this is the kind of thing that still sort of confuses me about some of this stuff, honestly.

 

[_Chrome]

You probably already know this, but...

Because Lunchables.

He makes the character look incredibly competitive, regardless of how much the character loses a MU. Tink also happens to be really polarizing in his MU spread, so while he doesn't do that well against some of the very best characters in the game, he dominates against many characters below, above and around his level, as well as having incredible MUs versus all of the lower tiers. I definitely wouldn't put him in the same tier as Falco, but to each their own I guess.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Edit: I'm starting to notice a disturbing trend... I main Link and second Pit. I think you guys are all crazy as balls for consistently placing Link above pit. Often well above Pit. Can someone explain this phenomenon? Pit's arrows, grab, dash dance and dash attack alone are a better character than Link.

I don't know about anyone else's opinion, but I think Link is more consistently able to close out stocks at a high level of play; whereas Pit just gets hosed by decent DI and SDI. There are other reasons, but that's the crux of it.

 

[steelguttey]

i made one too
ignore the letters pls, if i were to put letters on it it would probably be in the order of s, a+, a, a-, b+, b, b- or something i hate tier letters

also tiers arent ordered, just the first and last character in every tier
edit: ik u can change the name of the tiers but it isnt working on firefox and im too lazy to do it again on chrome

 

[Zoa]

I haven't seen any tournaments involving Lunchables for a while. I wonder if he uses that custom skin for Tink that has the stop sign shield and construction gear.

 

[CORY]

Remember Luigi's 3.5 side b grab box? Now it's on GnW, hooray!

Gnw has always had those jank ledge grab boxes. I don't know how they were in melee, but I'm assuming it's a brawl holdover.

 

[Jamble]

Haha yeah, I know watching Lunchables play Tink makes him look godly but I still feel like that has more to do with Lunchables than Tink. He's definitely demonstrated that Tink is capable of being a top contender, but I just don't think quite in the league of some of the Melee vets like Falco, but admittedly my opinion might be taken with a grain of salt. I know this doesn't have to do with his actual viability, but I think he has a high skill ceiling and doesn't get the kind of payout from that skill ceiling that say, Wolf does.

 

[FreeGamer]

TL and Falcon are total gatekeepers. It only makes sense to have them be high tier.

 

[Nausicaa]

TL is the biggest gate-keeper in the game by a large margin.
There's also no way his losing match-ups are any worse than anyone else's 'losing match-ups' too.
Haven't seen Lunch play, but I bet he's awesome as ****

Mario and Luigi and both busted as crap. They're in that bracket of characters competing with the likes of commonly-accepted-top-tiers. Nipping Fox in the butt at the very least.

Hylian was saying the same thing about ICs and Link. Pit and Link might be a similar deal.
For 1, Link is a slow fatty. If he 'looked' like a smaller Ooze in terms of model, he would fit it well with the way he moves.
He can't move. He's an anti-meta character in a more niche way rather than distinctly ruining the meta-at-large the way true Ooze can.

In end-game, Snake will never be able to get passed Ike. Someone linked me the Ally vs Prof set and by the looks for it, Prof was doing well, Ally didn't do much of anything he could have done, and won. Ivy is in the same branch. There's a reason Odds complained about the jank of the character in earlier versions. She's a niche polarizing character, her niche has just been shrunk to not be polarizing against everyone.

TL/Diddy/Peach could still just toss a thing at her for days and win, but unless you can actually hit things in front of you, it's futile. Snake can't hit a Link/Sheik/Zelda spacing F-Tilts without needing some extending, let alone against a ranged ball of junk, let alone a ranged ball of junk with Quick Draw. That's kind of his thing though. Mess people up with traps and force them to move, so he doesn't HAVE to extend as much. His punish game does the rest.

Ivy is bad. DK kind of bad, but worse.

FreeGamer you beat me to it. ha

 

[nimigoha]

View attachment 84429
i made one too
ignore the letters pls, if i were to put letters on it it would probably be in the order of s, a+, a, a-, b+, b, b- or something i hate tier letters

also tiers arent ordered, just the first and last character in every tier
edit: ik u can change the name of the tiers but it isnt working on firefox and im too lazy to do it again on chrome

DK not only same tier as Bowser, but worse than him. TF you smoking?

 

[steelguttey]

partly because i think dk is ****in awful, partly because i hate how dk is designed

if fox is badly designed because he wins neutral but dies in one hit because of death touch combos, then dk is even worse designed because his neutral is ****ing awful but he touch of death's everyone.

maybe im salty even tho i havent played a good dk like, ever

 

[Nausicaa]

Does it make sense to say that DK is poors mans Falcon?

 

[nimigoha]

Does it make sense to say that DK is poors mans Falcon?

Sorta. DK's Nair is frame 7 and +0 on shield, it actually functions as a move (played Melee DK this weekend... lol...). Dtilt is long AF. UpB OOS is good and really good if you cross him up. RAR Bair or just walling out with Bair is still good, that move is so big.

But also like Marth or Roy sorta (same run speed as Marth)? Basically think about how Marth and Roy play their neutral. DD, late Fair>Dtilt/Grab, DD Grab, Dash Attack when opponent messes up. DK does that but replace Fair with Nair and then he does DK 50/50s and Cargo Uthrow>Uair/Bair.

A DK with a bad neutral will look like garbage because he won't be able to keep you out so once you get in you TOD him.

 

[Zach777]

Wait just a second everyone. Lets all stop and appreciate the fact that this thread is on it's 1,000 page. I think that is cool.

 

[_Chrome]

I would argue DK and Puff are poor man's versions of Wario, who encompasses the strengths of both of those characters.

EDIT: Y'all should be watching the Super Monday Project MDVA stream. So nostalgic, so much fun!

 

[Player -0]

I want page 1000.

I mean.

nerf Fox.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Page 1000 hype!

And, um, DK is at least better than Yoshi too. And if we value consistency in our tier lists, then he gets a few more points for that since his punish game is like clocking in for a 9-5... Even DK knows his punish game is the Smash equivalent of doing the same thing in a cubicle five days a week for 35 years. He's a reliable, tie-wearing ape who knows his place in the meta and just gets the job done. No nonsense; nothing fancy.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Obligatory "Oli isn't bad" post.

Also, tier lists are opinions that stay opinions until tournament results back them up and only if those results aren't a outlier or a result of a lucky bracket. AKA need more data from multiple tournaments instead of jumping the gun every single major (gaw salt post paragon, anyone?) or when ripple does ripple things and gets top 8 with a pretty bad character.

Maybe post reasoning behind some of the more out of place placings on your list (to no one in particular)? Though it's probably "I feel this character is good/bad." in all likelihood rather then a thorough analysis of the character's neutral game, punishes and edgeguards and if said elements work well against perceived tops.

And regarding possible changes in how tourneys should be run, based on the fact that half (or more) of the cast has a ridiculously underdeveloped meta (*cough*Olimar*cough*), most MUs aren't certain and people can (and probably will) develop secondaries for bad MUs if the need arises after the MUs have been completely explored. So wait a bit and see, imo.

Also, when does Oli get grab armor/priority/whatever so someone can't poke on my shield with a long limb and get off scot free? When do Pikmin stop getting stuck in the ledge somehow when I'm ledgebouncing/dashing? Or stop midair due Fox lasers? Will people flip when they realize Oli's Uptilt has head intangibility for frames 1 through 10 (from start of the move till the last active hitbox frame) and find ways to use it in clever ways so I can copy it?

Idk. Let's talk more random tier lists that probably do nothing other then show your opinion (without the reasoning, ofc) and will change come next major.

Discussing findings that could advance the meta for certain characters seems better, though 9.9

I think when olimars grabs get fixed (as in bug fixed) and MAYBE a not so bad up B then i think olimar trashes alot of MU's and becomes A tier. And i dont think im being horribly unreasonable with expecting throw fixes (they are all bugs anyway so they should be fixed).

Also, I was at a monthly local in cincy (which i won) and a few people were like "why is bowser so broken/overpowered/good?" and i kinda laughed. For the record i only used air flame approaches, Janky Klaw down throw dunks, and up Bs and very well spaced air attacks and safe smash attacks until semi finals.

Anyways ill get to my point, Flame air approaches absolutely wreck dash dance camping falcons. My last two matches were against falcons and i learned two very interesting things when it comes to fast falcon and fox MU.

1. The koopa dunk outright kills or sets up for ledge grab edge guards against fast-er fallers

2. You can safely short hop air flame approach (with proper aiming of the fire) and stop alot of dash dance camping.

These two reasons are why i think the falcon match up is 40-60 and no longer 20-80.

I know im known for complaining about bowser, but i took a new approach and i learned a great deal from it with a more positive attitude.

With all this said, In the lab i learned alot of things about bowser and his upsmash. On characters marth fall speed and more, the down hit of up smash puts them right into a Fsmash (with some charge even) for a kill. Klaw dunk into a backwards crawl (towards ledge, release to grab ledge in about 3 frames) also really wrecks most characters towards ledge.

HOWEVER, do we think bowser could use 1 or 2 more recovery mix ups without making him crazy OP? I mean all he has is a momentum halting claw stall (that will kill you if you fail the already pretty specific inputs) and bowser bombing to the ledge (highly punishable with death ledge grabs) and a straight across up B that can be traded with or just ledge grabbed to death. And i am being very generour on the first two options being usable.

Anyways Do i think bowser sucks, no i think he can for sure be used with patience.
Is he still bottom tier, yea probably.
Does he still lose all but two match ups? I honestly don't know, flames, koopa klaw, and up B OOS really are good tools but its hard with bad frame data on both sides of the spectrum (start up and end lag) if you dont play patient and "lame".


Oh also, I dont think flame needs a rework (or removal) unless theres a secondary move set. (flames may be better than a projectile actually but its hard to tell with nothing to compare it to.)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

lmao did I actually manage to get the first post on page 1000 calling solarbeam a sticky


goddamnit

 

[Xykness]

Its actually amazing how well you learn to edgeguard some of these chars after looking at frame data (specifically sweet spot boxes on recovery). For example, I learned what is and isn't safe in G&W neutral. Not all of those moves have hitboxes out during the whole animation. This should be something practiced by all players imo.

 

[Life]

Its actually amazing how well you learn to edgeguard some of these chars after looking at frame data (specifically sweet spot boxes on recovery). For example, I learned what is and isn't safe in G&W neutral. Not all of those moves have hitboxes out during the whole animation. This should be something practiced by all players imo.

this

There's a reason a good chunk of the answers I've given to various questions in the past has been "grab two controllers and head into debug mode"

 

[nimigoha]

INot all of those moves have hitboxes out during the whole animation. This should be something practiced by all players imo.

"This should be fixed by the PMDT"

Actually though. Fix them animations guys.

Debug is bae. I need more.

Also does the "Debug on" toggle sometimes toggle the camera lock/HUD for other people, or is that just my controller? Seems like just the angle with which you press the Dpad if you go for Down it might also do Left. Have to be very deliberate to just toggle Debug.

 

[Life]

Gamecube controller dpad is prone to accidental diagonal inputs. News at 11.

 

[Vaporeohn]

Just your controller, it shouldn't do that simply from you turning Debug on.

 

[Star ☆]

Also does the "Debug on" toggle sometimes toggle the camera lock/HUD for other people, or is that just my controller? Seems like just the angle with which you press the Dpad if you go for Down it might also do Left. Have to be very deliberate to just toggle Debug.

I get this pretty often as well but I'm fairly sure it's just the angle I'm hitting the dpad on.