Tier List Speculation

[_Chrome]

I hope you realize we're (or at the very least I) am not complaining about shoulderbash being unpunishable, because it totally is: on shield. There is no arguing that shoulderbash out of bite or dsmash or any tech chase situation is really freakin dumb. It's an uninteractive way to cover a lot of options out of tech. And if you miss? No worries, neither of us get punished because I just jump (kinda like fly or float) away, meaning I can throw out a travelling kill move that has almost zero ability to be punished. All reward, incredibly minimal risk.

If Wario throws out GOOOO in neutral and he get shielded then yeah he should be punished. If he didn't go like -40 on shield it would be an even more douchey move.

Shoulderbash isn't the main problem, bite is with waft coming in second. If Wario didn't have bite, shoulderbash wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. I probably wouldn't have even brought it up.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, that is a good point. If you DI correctly for Bite you seem to get Shoulder Bashed. If you don't, you get Wafted. One of those like, 50/50/50's where you both have to guess right/wrong

 

[_Chrome]

It's not even like I/we said DK and Puff are completely invalidated by Wario either, they're just pretty close to being invalidated.

What frame does bite come out on? Because the fact that it does a lofty 13%, can be used in the air, and has minimal cooldown attached to a character with speed, strength, combo moves, instakill attacks and air maneuverability such as his is insane. Playing MorKs with my MK I swear I lost to bite, waft, dtilt and GOOO alone (granted I'd never played the MU before, bit he consistently killed me at about 70-80% on Battlefield with good DI).

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'd hoped that instead of casting strong potential debating points away with sarcasm as we do oh so much on this site, we would instead actually take a stance in an active discussion, although I didn't exactly open discussion up in the most respectable way, and I'm sorry for that. But that doesn't mean you can call me out without properly reading my comment, saying "GO is punishable" and leave. The only instance in my original comment I mentioned GO is when I talked about his tech chasing... never mind its being unpunishable as an edge guarding tool or out of bite. It's like saying Marth's fsmash is bad, except GO, while not having as large a hitbox or potential kill power, has a similar level of set ups, travels across the stage, and can be landed on opponents in the air, which as already said, he can juggle opponents and set up for kills really easily in the air (these juggles are in turn set up by moves like DACUS, Throws, and dtilt... like I said, his ground game transitions well into his air game). And you definitely wouldn't call Marth's fsmash bad just because it's punishable by shielding.

JOE! It's not even a 50/50, on reaction Wario can do either of those, or wall of pain/uair/bair/whatever he wants, he's Wario. Legit.

If Wario eats you, you are eating a **** tonne of percent.

And about the Puff/DK parallels. I don't think anyone was trying to say Wario was a better clone of them, just that he does what they do but better. DK's range doesn't exactly hold a candle to Wario's maneuverability/conversions/50 | 50s. And Puff's recovery doesn't make up for Wario's probable overall better survive-ability and more fleshed out option coverage/maneuverability either. This was a rushed post, but I g2g.

Edit: Got to GOOOO!

 

[Tomaster]

I hope you realize we're (or at the very least I) am not complaining about shoulderbash being unpunishable, because it totally is: on shield. There is no arguing that shoulderbash out of bite or dsmash or any tech chase situation is really freakin dumb. It's an uninteractive way to cover a lot of options out of tech. And if you miss? No worries, neither of us get punished because I just jump (kinda like fly or float) away, meaning I can throw out a travelling kill move that has almost zero ability to be punished. All reward, incredibly minimal risk.

If Wario throws out GOOOO in neutral and he get shielded then yeah he should be punished. If he didn't go like -40 on shield it would be an even more douchey move.

Shoulderbash isn't the main problem, bite is with waft coming in second. If Wario didn't have bite, shoulderbash wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. I probably wouldn't have even brought it up.

Dsmash shoulder bash.. I cri

 

[_Chrome]

Also nimigoha you mentioned that DK has the Jank down-b tech chase... Wario has a similar move: dsmash. I know in the past I've said MK was the best tech chaser, but his ability is nowhere close to Wario's upon further analysis.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'm still not sold Wario's chases are guaranteed on everyone, but MK can still probably be considered a more potent tech chaser if you factor in the easiness of use (MK's tech chases are more flexible since he's faster). Too lazy to test this since teching away from Wario is probably the best option anyways.

I must extend my sincerest apologies for clogging up this page with my "scrub comments."

 

[nimigoha]

Mario's Dsmash has a set knockback and always forces a tech, although he can cover that pretty well as we've discussed. It can also be CCd. Some floaty characters can SDI it up and have more time to hit him before they even land back down.

DK's Down B has much more range and can't be CCd, it has a really weird KB curve where you're more often than not guaranteed a followup, whether it be Utilt or Uair.

What I don't like is that his Dair is safe on shield and safe on CC at 0%. That's kooky.

I'm more pointing things out at this point rather than overtly complaining. I like the flavour that characters have and I don't want too much of it to go away.

 

[Soft Serve]

Good spot dodges blow up a lot of wario's things. Yeah, bite is real good for platform tech chases. Dairs pretty good. Characters are allowed to have good things guys. But a lot of bites attempts are very telegraphed, and other tools don't really fill the gaps. If wario is punishing you for sitting in shield with bites or dairs off your shield, just spot dodge and let them whiff. It's not like there still aren't rock paper scissors in his resets. Stop trying to only throw rock and complaining about losing to his paper.

The only things I think are bonkers are bite bit juggles to drag them back down to the ground, and stuff like weak fair>waft.

 

[Player -0]

Uh, Mario's D-Smash is set knockback?

I don't think so..?

You can still CC/ASDI down DK's Down-B. It knocks down kinda early if I can remember things. You just tech the ASDI down out of the Down B thingy.

 

[Life]

^Wario's dsmash is set knockback and very frame-negative vs. true CC (it forces knockdown on ASDI down).

Teching away from Wario is a Bad Idea (tm). Shoulder Bash gets stronger over longer distances. It varies by matchup, but generally you want to 50/50 between neutral tech and techroll in if you think he might Shoulder Bash; those are both covered by dsmash but that's techable again via ASDI down (I'm not familiar enough with the frame data to know what happens after that). Alternatively he might try to reaction regrab, which is pretty good; reaction fsmash, which is also pretty good (although I think you can Amsah tech that to pretty high percents, gonna have to test that); or do harder reads like Waft or Bite. Only when you get him to not try to Shoulder Bash you should you consider teching away.

As for Bite: while you might make an argument that this single tool is too strong (I'm ambivalent on the subject--if anything is an issue with it, it's priority, not reward for landing it--remember when people complained about Koopa Klaw armor?), it does serve a purpose in Wario's kit: it makes his air game much more threatening vs. shield. Yeah he can space aerials on shield, but any character can do that. He can cross up nair safely; that's one of the benefits of having a multihit aerial--even stuff like Pit nair can do that. But in most situations, a shielding character vs. an aerial character is a stalemate. Characters with command grabs, however, can actively threaten a shielding character from their jump (as can characters that generally like to transition from aerials to strong shield pressure, such as spacies, Lucas, etc.) The grounded character in this situation is thus encouraged to play the spacing game vs. aerial Wario, which is something he's pretty good at.

Wario has better "option coverage" techchasing since Shoulder Bash/dsmash both cover 3/4 in common techchasing situations, while MK has better "I'm going to react to your roll and hit you" techchasing since he's one of the fastest run speeds in the game and he has the DCape techchasing, although he can get 3/4s sometimes with dsmash (but then a lot of characters can).

I would probably rather be Falcon or Sonic than either of those two in a techchase situation though. Not that that says much.

 

[Bazkip]

What's up with Wario's dair not being negatively disjointed though. Isn't that going against the PMDT's design philosophy? I thought all the divekick-esque moves were supposed to be negatively disjointed for balance reasons, otherwise they would be too effective as tools to come down with. Not that it has a crazy hitbox or anything, but I don't see why it doesn't follow the trend of all the other similar moves.
Also afaik none of those other moves are safe on shield, but Wario's is.
Just kinda seems unnecessary.

 

[DMG]

Take out ability to jump during Side B

Take out drift during bite / alternatively modify reverse bite throw angle to be lower and stronger / alternatively remove reverse bite throw altogether

Uthrow is mild cancer idk what you would do to fix, more lag for Wario on throw cooldown to make guaranteed links much tougher? Not a 90 degree angle but closer to Roy Uthrow perhaps?

Change Dsmash entirely, maybe similar range to dtilt or slightly further and meaty, sweeps both sides like wolf dsmash, higher angle than fsmash launch, etc

Make dair bounce off shield non driftable, have bounce direction tie into what side of shield you hit (lets people angle shields for advantage) (also not likely to be programmable but dreams r dreams)

Now have fun

 

[Life]

What's up with Wario's dair not being negatively disjointed though. Isn't that going against the PMDT's design philosophy? I thought all the divekick-esque moves were supposed to be negatively disjointed for balance reasons, otherwise they would be too effective as tools to come down with. Not that it has a crazy hitbox or anything, but I don't see why it doesn't follow the trend of all the other similar moves.
Also afaik none of those other moves are safe on shield, but Wario's is.
Just kinda seems unnecessary.

I wonder if it's the angle? Sonic and ZSS go at a slight angle, which means I'm pretty sure both of them have the option of edge canceling (I'm not sure about Sonic but ZSS players do it all the time, as do Falcon and Ganondorf players). Ivy's uair sends her straight down, though. Hm.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Sonic's doesn't. Idk... It's a little weird and it's an interesting design philosophy to negatively disjoint those moves but maybe it's because they have a lot of utility? Sonic can set up into dair super easy, and it's not too risky off stage... ZSS has huge kill power on it, but then again, Wario's is also safe(-ish?) on shield whereas Sonic's and ZSS' aren't. Maybe it's a carry-over (perhaps oversight?) from Brawl? I'm interested to hear from someone on the Dev team about this.

Edit: I friggin' wish Sonic could edge cancel his dair. Hot damn.

 

[Player -0]

I don't really like 0 drift command grabs (see Kirby's inhale). If the drift was cut down a lot but not 0 that'd be cool. That's just me though.

 

[Bazkip]

Sonic's doesn't. Idk... It's a little weird and it's an interesting design philosophy to negatively disjoint those moves but maybe it's because they have a lot of utility? Sonic can set up into dair super easy, and it's not too risky off stage... ZSS has huge kill power on it, but then again, Wario's is also safe(-ish?) on shield whereas Sonic's and ZSS' aren't. Maybe it's a carry-over (perhaps oversight?) from Brawl? I'm interested to hear from someone on the Dev team about this.

Edit: I friggin' wish Sonic could edge cancel his dair. Hot damn.

Wario had a different dair in Brawl.

Also something to note is that Sonic's dair isn't negatively disjointed for the first 6 active frames. But I guess that's fine, it's bending the rules, not necessarily breaking them.

 

[DMG]

Wario Dair in Brawl was very good and very bad. I don't think it would fit into PM very well because the purpose of the move was to linger and end with a hitbox more favorable than weak Nair (also auto cancel window was very lenient)

Wario already has driftable bite and weak Nair is a bit more favorable in PM, so the need for Brawl Dair or something similar isn't necessary. Glad they went a different route for his Dair in PM, even though I'm not a fan of rocket aerials

 

[Nausicaa]

The only things I think are bonkers are bite bit juggles to drag them back down to the ground, and stuff like weak fair>waft.

I talked a lot about this in the dat Wario thread for 2.1
Character could do it then, and it was non-driftable.
AKA, way cooler + stylish + took precision BUT WAS JUST AS FREE because Wario is... well, Puff-Mach.7

Take out ability to jump during Side B

Take out drift during bite / alternatively modify reverse bite throw angle to be lower and stronger / alternatively remove reverse bite throw altogether

Uthrow is mild cancer idk what you would do to fix, more lag for Wario on throw cooldown to make guaranteed links much tougher? Not a 90 degree angle but closer to Roy Uthrow perhaps?

Yes to Side-B jumping.

Even without drift during Bite, he could still do 100% of what he does now to GET the Bites.
The only thing that would change is the drift AFTER landing the Bite. Which is something, but even without drift, he can just Bite later in his drift and it's the same function.
(I suppose this helps snag people who try to challenge the grab earlier since the grab-box comes out later in his drifting + fly-by Bites are no longer a thing to catch moving targets, but that's minor)

More precision, yes. Nerf, yes. Change much? Shouldn't. (see above)

I did like it without drift.
2.1 had grab-box issues with it, but it was a great move even then.

I don't really like 0 drift command grabs (see Kirby's inhale). If the drift was cut down a lot but not 0 that'd be cool. That's just me though.

Makes sense + yeah. 2.1 felt bad for a lot of people. Hence everyone thought people like Wario were looooooooow tier. (GW and Lucas were awkward too, all 'loooooow tier' in 2.1 when they are probably some of the least changed characters since then along with peeps like Wolf and Luigi)

With nerfs to U-Throw, he still has F-Throw and D-Throw DI trap mix-ups that lead to anything from free Wafts to Dacus's to whatever basically without fail.

Edit/PS: To those who were saying earlier 'wario is probs as good as CF/Lucario'
Now you're gettin it!
I'd say better by a distinct bit, but meh.

Sorta. DK's Nair is frame 7 and +0 on shield, it actually functions as a move (played Melee DK this weekend... lol...). Dtilt is long AF. UpB OOS is good and really good if you cross him up. RAR Bair or just walling out with Bair is still good, that move is so big.

But also like Marth or Roy sorta (same run speed as Marth)? Basically think about how Marth and Roy play their neutral. DD, late Fair>Dtilt/Grab, DD Grab, Dash Attack when opponent messes up. DK does that but replace Fair with Nair and then he does DK 50/50s and Cargo Uthrow>Uair/Bair.

A DK with a bad neutral will look like garbage because he won't be able to keep you out so once you get in you TOD him.

So the answer is yes.

DK is poor mans CF
Pika is poor mans Fox

Who else is a poor mans somebody?
It's for sure NOT Wario - Puff/DK or Link - Tink

Link is poor mans Ooze more than poor mans Tink
LMAO

 

[Jamwa]

notes
-ness should be at the top of S tier (solo main tier) but i like seeing him first so yeah
-wolf is infront of fox because that way they're looking at each other
-the first half of A tier are characters im slightly unsure of, and could afford to be anywhere in S tier.
-anyone in/under b+ tier is effectively ordered by my personal bias, as the game hasnt developed for long enough to be able to accurately tell where these characters reside
-b tier represents the characters that aren't unviable but aren't really viable unless you got mad skill or the opponent conveniently doesnt know the mu. chances are you're going to be playing unfavourable mus most of the time
-c tier = outclassed tier
-f tier = flowchart me tier
-this list is made based of mu spreads and not influenced by placings nor how common each mu is

this threads so boring you guys suck someone say something

 

[DMG]

I proposed no drift because that affects both drifting after Bite, and using Bite "early" and drifting into them (which is a way to get around Bite startup sorta). I think it's fair for Wario to have Bite if he has to space + time the move more accurately. You could keep some drift but very strictly nerf it? I figure balancing command grab without drift is much easier than trying to find some arbitrary cutoff line of what is fair or not

 

[Star ☆]

Edit: I friggin' wish Sonic could edge cancel his dair. Hot damn.

You can, it's just a lot harder due to Sonic's collision being strange when only one of his legs are poked out. Falcon/Ganon/ZSS down b are much easier because they slide a little when they hit the ground. Usually when I ledge cancel Sonic dair I do it by accident and airdodge/spotdodge afterwards :/

 

[Nausicaa]

^That Sonic thing reminded me of something about MK.

MK was the closest we came to having a real Dive-Kick based character in the game. No Ripple-flapping type of air-to-ground stuff from bird-like maneuvers in the sky, and not Shuffle-bird with common approaching things, but legitamate Dive-Kick character in Smash.

After 3.5 hit, and the Dive-Kick was done, and ZSS was normalized rather than expanded upon, if there's any character that would actually be REALLY COOL if they had a really solid aerial Falcon Kick/Wizard Foot type of 'core element' to their gameplay, it would be Sonic.

Sonic with something like a landing hit-box (or better because that's annoying and easy to do) almost NO lag, making it a strong point in his neutral and stagger game, would be a really cool and non-jank way of implementing something that could be pretty jank. (Giving it to a busted MK)



Random thing that came to mind about Ivy typing this.

It's interesting that much of the talk was about Sothe being awesome with the character, and just good as a player. It seemed when otek and Dong (almost won but not quite) tournaments around the same time with Luigi, against similar players (it was Prof with otek, and Sethlon or something with Dong), that there was so little talk of the players making amazing plays and being good.

They're good players of course, can't be 'bad' and do that well, (I haven't heard anything before or since oddly though) but what would have happened if they DID win? If otek beat Prof with Luigi, which isn't exactly a strong match-up for Luigi, would there have been much about him being so incredible as a player?

From what little I saw, both of the matches and talks around here, it was basically 'how to abuse Down-B/Up-B for Dong, the character' and neither did anything overly interesting regarding how to play the character optimally. Now we have the same Snake lose to one of his worse match-ups against a player that must be amazing given that's all the talk around Ivy recently here, and Ivy is 'better than expected' somehow.

tl;dr
-You all pay too much attention to surface junk.

- Luigi is OP and you missed it like you missed Diddy when he came out and GW/Wario for multiple patches and Wolf/Lucas for years and all that other junk.

- At least Ivy is not and is still not.



ANYWAAAYYYZZ



Sonic with BARELY ANY LAG AND ANGLABLE Dive-Kick plz

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

luigi is good
otek had godlike movement
nobody in dfw knows how cyclone worked

solarbeam is borked

 

[Avro-Arrow]

OMG Naus I believe. Bring back Naus2020

 

[Nausicaa]

wut?
Believe in what? Luigi?
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP seems believe in him harder than both of us combined.
Who is bringing Naus2020 back? I don't even know what Naus2020 is referring to aside from like... more Nausicaa's or something?

It's times like now when I just don't understand slang/memes that I am reminded that I'm very bad at internet.
I'm actually ditching in 5(6? maybe?) days and won't be back for 4(5? maybe?) months. In that 2.1 era I turned down DT due to this.

tl;dr
- I don't play Smash. It's a myth. I'm more like Ultron and just raid these forums when the virus detection software that Stark set-up starts to malfunction.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

if I didn't believe in luigi what would I believe in

why would I play him if I didn't believe in him

I'd probably go back to playing wario or something

There was a problem fetching the tweet

****posting in the tierlist thread turn down for what

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Sonic's doesn't. Idk... It's a little weird and it's an interesting design philosophy to negatively disjoint those moves but maybe it's because they have a lot of utility? Sonic can set up into dair super easy, and it's not too risky off stage... ZSS has huge kill power on it, but then again, Wario's is also safe(-ish?) on shield whereas Sonic's and ZSS' aren't. Maybe it's a carry-over (perhaps oversight?) from Brawl? I'm interested to hear from someone on the Dev team about this.

Edit: I friggin' wish Sonic could edge cancel his dair. Hot damn.

Safe ish on shield? Wario is at the mercy of ranged character's up tilts like fire emblem, and I know as diddy I pretty much get a free nair every time I bait the wario player into using dair, on times I don't just choose to use up smash. Then again I have a lot of experience avoiding Wario's jank, seriously like 78 wario mains in the south east in just Alabama and Tennessee alone. Then you have strong bad videos and mr. Pickle nearby... it's pretty much a mandatory matchup, like losing to falcon in georgia.

 

[Xykness]

From my experiences at We Tech Those, Luigi can definitely manage himself among the projected top tiers/top players. I believe in Luigi and fully believe that he can win a major. OP? Broken? Not at all. Its the people that know how to approach the MU that end up realizing that he is not OP. Let me remind you that NERFED Luigi is starting to show up in higher standings at majors. I think it all goes back to the idea that this is such an unexposed character that people are still figuring out how to play against. Some regions are lucky enough to have good practice against good Luigis.

Lets just all go back to a time when Luigi could recover with nado from the depths of dreamland and teleport to stage with his missile. That seems like it was the most balanced Luigi

I believe that Luigi can save the world.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Wario is pretty dumb in my opinion. I'm going to compare Wario to another character who is also considered generally good among the cast, Samus.

Traditionally, characters are in a very bad situation if they don't have positional advantage of the stage, or if they're above their opponent. Samus thrives or dies off of her position in regards to her opponent, but Wario on the other hand has a very game breaking neutral. The height of his jumps combined with the insane aerial drift he has lets him get away from any horizontal positional disadvantage he has since he can just jump over someone and drift to the top platform or center stage.

Wario also circumvents vertical positional disadvantages because of how big his drift is. When a character is falling from the air, someone like Marth can just dash dance grab their landing lag (assuming the opponent did an aerial). Warios aerial drift is so extreme that he can't be dd grabbed without his landing being hard read. Having to make a hard read to just punish a character landing is pretty silly, because it negates the positional advantage you have to begin with. Here's my dope MS paint skills to try to explain my logic more clearly.

Spoiler: Dope picture

(Holy **** my MS paint skills are Krey)

Punish game wise, it's pretty obvious that Wario is a little too good. Since Warios neutral mostly revolves around being in the air and using his aerial drift to properly spaces moves on your shield, it would make sense that shielding would be effective against Wario. Only problem is, bite exists. Bite makes it so that Wario has an answer for basically anything you're doing in neutral without changing his gameplan or heavily adjusting his style to counteract yours. Not only does he get the positional advantage for biting you, it also creates a 50/50 mixup and if you guess wrong then you die because of waft. Well, since Wario is so good in the air, surely you should be forcing him to stay on the ground since he should be pretty bad there, right? Well, not exactly. While Wario isn't top tier on the ground, he does have a good dash dance and good horizontal carries + tech chasing. Also, his grab is kinda busted. Uthrow uair combos on a majority of the cast and uair is one of the strongest upward sending aerials in the game. If you mis time it and hit the sour spot of uair, it can just combo into itself anyway. Wario already has good kill options with fsmash/ftilt, bair, uair, and waft, having a good guaranteed throw -> kill move is just icing on the cake.

Wario also has pretty good edgeguarding. He can cover any high recoveries with waft or doublejump bair, any low recoveries with dropzone nair or he can side-b to catch opponents off guard. Warios recovery is also good because of his insane aerial drift, up-b having dumb hitboxes, and side-b mixups/stalls. Think of a Falcon recovery but better, then add waft into the mix as well. Edgeguarding Wario can be scary, and waft makes it so people are afraid to commit to going deep for edgeguarding due to stage spikes or just getting sent away and dying.

Wario just seems to have everything that makes a character good with a very strong risk/reward ratio on his neutral and punish game that makes playing him fun/safe, and makes playing against him frustrating.

 

[SunnieHD]

Forgive me if its been stated already in this thread, but does the waft have armor?

 

[Strong Badam]

Forgive me if its been stated already in this thread, but does the waft have armor?

Nope, it lost armor in 3.5.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

at one point I think I decided to never actually make a tierlist because a. the game isn't ever going to be fleshed out enough to the point where a reliable one can be made, b. because a simple tierlist graphic can't possibly contain the subtleties that a game with 2452345234 matchups has, c. because tierlist discussion tends to never actually lead to any important discussion about how interactions in the game function, and d. despite the fact that every tierlist tries to be a time-independent reckoning of how good each character is when all their potential is realized, all that each melee tierlist has done is be a time capsule of which characters are dominant at that point in time

but here I am off of school and I suddenly have a lot of extra time to kill and pretend like I know something about smash, so I tried to make a tierlist

this tierlist, rather than being an idealistic full potential list is designed to reflect the relative success of characters in the next year or so, by which time the next version of PM (4.0? gold edition?) will have come out, rendering this list useless
even accounting for such a short timeframe, crazy things can happen (remember when olimar hilariously rose like 7 spots on the 2012 brawl tierlist?)

characters are ordered within tiers, but at this point nobody is good enough with any character to make ordering within tiers anything other than a lost cause

still, I've assigned an uncertainty of about ± sqrt(placement) with fox's placement value being 1. in general this means that the characters on the bottom (up to kirby) could be closer to mid-tier, while I'm much more certain of the characters at the top

v gud tier means that each of those characters has options to cover the vast majority of matchups and situations they face as well as being flexible enough to allow easy adaptation. there aren't any characters like melee fox with the ability to counter any strategy they see with a better one, but fox is closest. wolf could also be up there because of wolf's ability to both be an unstoppable aggressive force as well as passively control stage and dictate interactions with laser etc. falcon is the gatekeeper here, he can kinda ignore the stage control of at least half of the cast and just run around and dashdance and nair people. characters in this tier can feel comfortable in the fact that if they are a better player than the opponent, their skill will return on investment

gud tier are characters that still can cover lots of counterplay options, but have a more abstract and harder to quantify way of doing it/are limited/don't cover as many options as v gud tier

gud-ish tier are more limited in the counterplay options they can cover or begin to be hampered by major aspects of the game such as projectiles, dash dancing, or stage choice, however, each character still has a multitude of good tools. players of these characters will have to outplay their opponents in some matchups and will most likely lose some scrambles but won't suffer too much from high tier privilege

ehh? tier contains characters that have been shown to have potential but also have inherent flaws or weaknesses, or do not have enough top player representation to show an accurate image of how good they actually are. all of these characters have the potential to be good yet currently are need of a lot of development or refinement, or are limited to one good player who is often perceived to be outplaying their opponents by a great deal (jiggs, ics). ness is also here for somewhat of the opposite reason, he visibly has a lot of tools and there are multiple nesses finding success, but counterplay to ness hasn't been entirely developed. I'm torn between the sheer amount of tools that ness has and all the critisms of ness from ness mains such as boiko and nza.

effort tier is what it sounds like, it requires effort to play. these characters do have winning matchups, but they are outnumbered by losing matchups. I somewhat subscribe to poob's view that these characters are not so limited as to have extremely hard counters preventing their tournament success, but there are matchups where these characters will have to outplay their opponent. These characters either have relatively one-dimensional (or no-dimensional, kirby and yoshi are kinda lost for a specific strength) gameplans or are beaten by one option that they can't muster a response to, or have janky hurtboxes that screw them over a lot (zard ;_; ). These are not low-tier in the melee or brawl sense, but moreso of a high mid-tier in the melee sense, like a samus or luigi making top eight at a national, not unheard of, but definitely difficult.

???? tier is zelda. I actually know very little about how zelda's gameplan functions or what her matchup spread is with the new din's changes, as the vast majority of zelda footage I've seen comes from 3.0 or before. I just don't know enough to put her anywhere, if someone could tell me where they think zelda is that'd be cool

ooze tier is king ivan himself, dedede. this started out as a meme thing by nausicaa but I'm putting him here for an actual reason. DDD's matchup spread is so hilariously volatile that his results are incredibly dependent on bracket luck. when examining purely a matchup spread, DDD won't do that well due to all of his somewhat rough matchups against midtiers. however, for the foreseeable future, DDD will outplace his matchup-based tier placement due to his good matchups against spacies and other high tiers and ripple's hilarious ability to be incredibly stubborn yet get consistent results on a national level.

even accounting for the specified uncertainty that I gave a formula for earlier, there's still a few characters that I feel as though I might be overrating or underrating based both on my lack of knowledge or the fact that people who are much better than me at the game have ranked these characters differently than I have.
overrated:
fox is most likely not THE BEST character in the game, but instead one of the best. however, for the time being fox is the de facto measuring stick for whether or not another character is "good" or "jank" or "broken" and that won't change for awhile
gdubs might be slightly overrated. I think the general consensus is that he's a good character, but whether or not he's one of the best in the game is questionable and it's hard to determine objective analysis from reaction to mr lz.
same with lucario. maybe it's because of the lack of recent ipk success, but the holes in lucario's neutral and his lack of kill options other than nair past 120% may make themselves felt in the future
ike is also in a bad spot I feel. he has a big sword and he has burst movement, but he also has relatively telegraphed burst movement is generally big and slow aside from that, two traits that don't work well in smash
lonk also might not have enough depth in his gameplay to justify the tier I've put him in, he may belong more in ehh tier

underrated:
ROB might be a little underrated and belong in v gud tier. I largely placed him where he was after seeing lunchables' shut down DF and extrapolated that to mean that ROB has some trouble with a dashdancing marth. I considered the characters above marth on the list and figured that each of them would have a little less difficulty than ROB would, so I placed rob just behind marth. I don't know enough about the actual gameplan of marth aside from jcaesar boost nair to accurately place him
peach is another character that may be generally underrated, simply based on that I feel float has potential that hasn't been completely utilized in pm yet. also in the crouch cancel and dtilt heavy atmosphere of pm, having a dsmash that can do 70 percent and turns you around offstage can't be a bad thing
might be placed a little lower than his melee background warrants. he's largely placed where he is because of the a. lack of people who play him and get results in both melee and pm and b. falco lasers seem to not be as centralizing as they are in melee. I personally love falco's gameplay but I think he has a little bit of a jiggs issue when dealing with newcomers
is placed relatively higher than most people place her, but I still think that having a solarbeam that heals you when you charge it, is as strong of a kill confirm as a sticky, and stays upon stock loss is a realllllly good trait and could lead her to possibly having more success than just one tournament with sothe
and might both be underrated for the same reason, that quantifying their raw speed and cross-up ability is difficult. no matter whan they do, both of these characters have to be extremely on point due to their lack of disjoint, which might limit their achievement of theoretical ceilings.
is underrated because at this point I think everyone is confused as to why squirtle can have all the movement he does, be as small as he is, have a safe-on-shield, far-reaching, and un-crouch-cancellable bubble and still be considered bad.
squirt squirt

keep in mind that all of these opinions are written by somebody who has had no significant tournament success and who drinkingfood said "most likely has zero fundamentals"

 

[nimigoha]

"These are not low-tier in the melee or brawl sense, but moreso of a high mid-tier in the melee sense, like a samus or luigi making top eight at a national, not unheard of, but definitely difficult."

This is like the most accurate way to describe PM low-tiers. I think Yoshi and Bowser struggle with this more than Charizard, DK, and Kirby.

"I'm torn between the sheer amount of tools that ness has and all the critisms of ness from ness mains such as boiko and nza."

I also like this.

 

[Jamble]

I think that might have been my favorite tier list evar.

 

[Nausicaa]

There's a pretty observable general consensus among every list posted over the last... while.

It's like this thread actually benefited in terms of communication, discussion, and clarity on both common and individual terms, from mass tier-list spam over a decent duration with periods in between for reflection. Who knew?

The only thing that strikes me as overly 'off' in all of this (I'll call it the 'collective list') is how low Pikachu is.

At least he's not Bottom-5 and Luigi and Peach aren't in the Bottom-5 with him. Took enough years for that junk to sort out.


The character is good.

PS: This goes into my rants about how a 'Flat-List' will never work. It's a malleable ball of amoeba crap.

 

[Jamwa]

I'm torn between the sheer amount of tools that ness has and all the critisms of ness from ness mains such as boiko and nza.

I think ness is too powerful at the moment (i've mained the character in every smash game). i want dair to be nerfed to a 7-15 frame startup ala melee and given AC frames, and i've been planning on making a huge explanation of how this will benefit some of ness' weaknesses that people so often complain about in neutral whilst nerfing his ridiculously easy and rewarding punish game. i just need some time to create a mock-build and test what startup is most appropriate for his DJC because it moves differently compared to melee and requires a lot of study.

having a move that doesnt instantly put out a hitbox with a DJC character is inherently good as it allows unique movement via varied DJC heights/timings and put hitboxes where ness currently cannot, as all his hitboxes come out too fast after a DJC to allow for any sort of significant mixups in movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxA8xFyGpHE
this particular match is quite old, and doesnt really represent the mixups of DJC FF nair/fair that is possible instead of my constant abuse of DJC FF dair against someone inexperienced in the MU, but it should show the unique movement and aerial control it gives ness and how safely it allows him to land on a platform or on a shield. of course, in melee it takes 20 frames and is essentially reactable, but with the vast amoutn of buffs and tools ness has received in project m i think this change would compliment the character and even his punish/neutral game out. this video also doesnt demonstrate how dair can be used to AC onto platforms since the autocancel frames are always active when the hitboxes aren't active. DJC dair is also amazing for shield pokes against most characters (shiek is like the exception).

please consider this seriously, i think the current version of ness is the easiest he's ever been to master and currently feels very depthless because all his aerials are used in the exact same manner out of a DJC and that doesn't allow any sort of movement mixup in neutral.

(try to ignore the aus commentary they just **** talk)

 

[Player -0]

I first thought you were joking but...

DJC Dair is good at shield pokes?


Also other stuff but.

 

[Saproling]

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP I think you're overrating Ivys ability to get charge against a majority of the cast. Solarbeam is great but all it does is keep her in your "Ehh" tier she certainly not the worst by any means but actually getting charge is way harder than it seems at least at the moment it is. Sothes run could have easily ended is his bracket at KOTN got Orly or Kells or Ripple just went Samus from the start and not have been a moron. he got a fine bracket for an Ivy of his caliber to get through but it still doesn't change the fact that Ivy only wins against like 5 characters people can get better at using counterplay vs Ivy but Ivy is really pushed in comparison to most PM characters and thats simply due to there not being much to explore I believe the big thing that can be pushed is using seed to help cover multiple options but as she is now she is way too susceptible to CC and her moves come out too slow to rightfully get these conversions in a vacuum but the human element is always involved which is the only way raw up airs will land.

 

[Luk101]

I think ness is too powerful at the moment (i've mained the character in every smash game). i want dair to be nerfed to a 7-15 frame startup ala melee and given AC frames, and i've been planning on making a huge explanation of how this will benefit some of ness' weaknesses that people so often complain about in neutral whilst nerfing his ridiculously easy and rewarding punish game. i just need some time to create a mock-build and test what startup is most appropriate for his DJC because it moves differently compared to melee and requires a lot of study.

having a move that doesnt instantly put out a hitbox with a DJC character is inherently good as it allows unique movement via varied DJC heights/timings and put hitboxes where ness currently cannot, as all his hitboxes come out too fast after a DJC to allow for any sort of significant mixups in movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxA8xFyGpHE
this particular match is quite old, and doesnt really represent the mixups of DJC FF nair/fair that is possible instead of my constant abuse of DJC FF dair against someone inexperienced in the MU, but it should show the unique movement and aerial control it gives ness and how safely it allows him to land on a platform or on a shield. of course, in melee it takes 20 frames and is essentially reactable, but with the vast amoutn of buffs and tools ness has received in project m i think this change would compliment the character and even his punish/neutral game out. this video also doesnt demonstrate how dair can be used to AC onto platforms since the autocancel frames are always active when the hitboxes aren't active. DJC dair is also amazing for shield pokes against most characters (shiek is like the exception).

please consider this seriously, i think the current version of ness is the easiest he's ever been to master and currently feels very depthless because all his aerials are used in the exact same manner out of a DJC and that doesn't allow any sort of movement mixup in neutral.

(try to ignore the aus commentary they just **** talk)

You really have me thinking hard about this. Can you give me a situation where having this new dair would help his neutral out? I feel like this is really really interesting. But I have problems believing that it would help is punish game. Dair is ness's best tool in punishes bar none. It does so much. I have trouble imagining ness having a stronger punish game with this new dair. It would also greatly limit his OOS options as djc dair OOS is an amazing move for punishing unsafe or poorly spaced moves and if it didn't have the speed it does now, It would lose most of that utility as It already takes 10 frames to come out of jumpsquat, djc first frame possible, and then 5 frames for the move to come out. Again if you could elaborate on how it would help his neutral I'd really appreciate this, as it still couldn't be used as an approach option.