Tier List Speculation

eideeiit

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I've posed this question before, but it's worth thinking about: under what circumstances would you *increase* a character's jump squat frames?
The only things popping up for me are overpowered aerial and wavedash related things, think Luigi wd jab and nair OoS. If there was a character that didn't have the weaknesses Luigi has but had his wd and nair and like fox's sh and a 3f jump squat, making his jump squat larger would balance him out in some ways (tho this char's balance issues would probably still be huge). Yeah, that's a reach.

Also in 3.02 some 3f jump squat chars might've loved to give 1f of jump squat for a DACUS, but ye
 

Smash John

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I don't really have a problem with Pit's current jumpsquat. There are more important areas to be addressed.

I've stated this before, just putting it out there again.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm sure it would help, but i'd definitely like to see something more creative done that would round out the character better (unless we can have both<3)

I've posed this question before, but it's worth thinking about: under what circumstances would you *increase* a character's jump squat frames?
As for this, hypothetically, i suppose if the PMDT decided some move was too strong OoS, but adding startup on that move would change the character's gameplan more than an extra frame on jump?
 

Mr.Pickle

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So once again I missed the boat on the wario talk, which is unfortunate, but with work and streaming I hardly have time for anything. If I get a chance some time today I'll post my thoughts on it, but one thing I'd like to add to, mostly, Beorn Beorn 's thoughts on wario, is his nair is actually frame 4. Lol not that it really matters, that move is better than some characters by itself.
 

_Chrome

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I've been playing 64 recently and Kirby from 64 actually has a pretty decent design, besides the busted fsmash, said and utilt and how he can be, well... Boring. His traits could be changed so that he's faster and I think the fair would be a good idea, as well as *perhaps* his nair. Lemme know what you think Kirby mains/main.
 

FreeGamer

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His current aerials are pretty solid. If they have to be changed, they should get meaningful stuff like Melee U-Air or a landing hit for D-Air.
 

DrinkingFood

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Jesus the quality of discussion in this thread might be at an all time low
Seeing like 90% "plz change character" and 10% nobody understanding the game
 

FreeGamer

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So you wouldn't want Kirby's old fair?
It would give him help in an area where he really really doesn't need it. If you want to soften his terribad MUs and have him stop being bottom 10 on almost every tier list, his passive attributes should be looked at first.
 
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Beorn

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Jesus the quality of discussion in this thread might be at an all time low
Seeing like 90% "plz change character" and 10% nobody understanding the game
When 90% of tier list speculation is "plz change character" something is probably wrong.

Pit - Needs help
Wario- Is ridiculous
Link- Needs help
Kirby - Needs help
Ness- is in the middle somewhere

Looks like people are making alllll kindz of sense to me. Though I agree misinformation is a sad fact in this thread and any game with as many complicated systems as ProjectM. If you would help them out with that while we discuss things that deserve discussion, because they are obviously a problem, that would be would be pretty cool of you. Maybe you could even take misinformation down to 5%. You have the power breh.

Exp- I said Wario's bite is stupid. Ripple Ripple comes in with the knowledge (cuz Ripple is cool like that). Helping us understand that it's even more stupid than we had originally thought. Everyone learned something new. Miss-information has gone down. This could be you guy.
 
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DrinkingFood

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When 90% of tier list speculation is "plz change character" something is probably wrong.

Pit - Needs help
Wario- Is ridiculous
Link- Needs help
Kirby - Needs help
Ness- is in the middle somewhere

Looks like people are making alllll kindz of sense to me. Though I agree misinformation is a sad fact in this thread and any game with as many complicated systems as ProjectM. If you would help them out with that while we discuss things that deserve discussion, because they are obviously a problem, that would be would be pretty cool of you. Maybe you could even take misinformation down to 5%. You have the power breh.

Exp- I said Wario's bite is stupid. Ripple Ripple comes in with the knowledge (cuz Ripple is cool like that). Helping us understand that it's even more stupid than we had originally thought. Everyone learned something new. Miss-information has gone down. This could be you guy.
the thing that's wrong is a lot of mediocre players thinking their opinion is worth much. It's not just misinformation, it's lack of understanding, and that's not an easy fix because neutral interaction requires a lot of experience to be intuitive (and even then can still lack proper use of tools since intuitive play initially leads to bad autopilotting) and more experience/game knowledge/processing to be cerebral. Of course your character is going to feel weak if you aren't fully using their tools. And especially if nobody has represented them yet. If sothe hadn't won kotn id be surprised if Ivy wasn't also on your list
 
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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I still don't see how wario's bite is stupid

and don't give me that it provides a mixup on coming down for whether or not a person can shield, yes wario is good at being in the air against a grounded opponent, that's kinda his whole gameplan

I don't understand WHY the fact that wario is good is stupid
 

Beorn

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the thing that's wrong is a lot of mediocre players thinking their opinion is worth much. It's not just misinformation, it's lack of understanding, and that's not an easy fix because neutral interaction requires a lot of experience to be intuitive (and even then can still lack proper use of tools since intuitive play initially leads to bad autopilotting) and more experience/game knowledge/processing to be cerebral. Of course your character is going to feel weak if you aren't fully using their tools. And especially if nobody has represented them yet. If sothe hadn't won kotn id be surprised if Ivy wasn't also on your list
Sounds like you are above all of this. I'm glad we have you around. How would we know who is mediocre without your informative posts. I sure do wish I could understand what you do about this game. We can't be privy to your vast game knowledge, because we don't have the ability to understand such complicated cerebral things. Here I thought you were just being elitist. Do you realize how your human interactions come across to people, or do I not have the experience to understand your statements.

I gladly accept my infraction for this post. I've watched you be a jerk to people on here since 2012.
 
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Ripple

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Exp- I said Wario's bite is stupid. Ripple Ripple comes in with the knowledge (cuz Ripple is cool like that). Helping us understand that it's even more stupid than we had originally thought. Everyone learned something new. Miss-information has gone down. This could be you guy.
More stupid? When I said it's not a 50/50 I meant that nothing is guaranteed off of it, Not that it's better than originally thought. You can actively do something to avoid aerials and waft. And the lack of info anyone has said whenever it comes up means no one really took the time to look it up in debug like I said they should. Come on guys.

Edit sorry for being unclear earlier
 
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Beorn

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Thanks for clarifying that ripple. I didn't get that from your post on it earlier. I assumed you meant something you didn't. It was not clear. I'm going to debug that right now. I need to know how to get away from Wario in a bite situation. Am I to gather from this post that he can never get a guaranteed fart with proper DI?
Regardless, my point stands. You did try and help us understand the move and do away with the widespread misinformation. This is still cool of you.
 
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_Chrome

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DrinkingFood DrinkingFood , you've contributed maybe one or two discussion stimulating comments on this thread within the last few weeks, yet you complain about the level of discussion -____-. You're like Benjamin from Animal Farm: you sit behind a computer screen and read the posts, and make a snide remark about it. I'll give you credit, you made a decent post about the philosophy behind characters having strengths and lack of strengths rather than strengths and weaknesses, but that's it.

Jesus, your contributions are like 90% (make that 95%) "you guiz are mediocre" and 5% not bad.

Besides that, talking about possible nerfs to characters has to do with the development of the game. Sure, a lot of the posts on this thread about Ness were kinda iffy, and for pretty much all of October and the beginning of November it was all "Bowser is bad", but if you want to actually talk about something relevant you should bring up a relevant topic. It's not hard... you seem to think you're above everybody here, so why not put your knowledge on display rather than useless posts that verge on cyberbullying (which got Leffen banned from SmashBoards by the way).

~

To get back on topic, does anybody have any dark horse picks seeing as Sothe just won with Ivysaur? In other words, do any of you have any characters that you think are under- or over-rated that you could see being relevant or stagnant in the upcoming and current meta-game?
 

Avro-Arrow

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DF just likes to parade around here self-absorbed, inflating his own ego by belittling people who aren't good at the game because he has nothing better to do. If he genuinely found nothing compelling to this thread then he wouldn't come back. Since he finds the discussion uninteresting and is obviously unwilling (at least so far) to change anything about this thread, DF is really only here to flex in front of a bunch of nerds.

It must feel so fulfilling to spend your time putting down random people on the internet.

On the flip side, I think a lot of people would appreciate it if you were to actually contribute something positive to this thread, so why not do that? Win for us scoobies, and a win for you too since you'll actually find people are capable of meaningful discussion. Your call. You do you.
 
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Saproling

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Don't go there my body cant contain people thinking ivy isn't mid tier at best while pushing it I don't wanna be mean so pls no.
 

Mr.Pickle

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I still don't see how wario's bite is stupid

and don't give me that it provides a mixup on coming down for whether or not a person can shield, yes wario is good at being in the air against a grounded opponent, that's kinda his whole gameplan

I don't understand WHY the fact that wario is good is stupid
It's a command grab so you can't mash out of it, and since it's a grab, if a attack connects at the same time the grab comes out, the grab wins. Not to mention the decent percent it does, and the amazing string potential it has because of the angle it sends at and how easy it is to confirm into it, due to how much control you have with it in the air. That's just the attributes of the move itself, that's not taking into account the character behind it.

There's nothing wrong with a character being good, but the reasons why a character is good is something that can be seen as questionable.
 

Beorn

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Mr. pickle and I watched Sothe vs Prof pro while I made my tier list a while back. I don't feel any different about her then than I do now. She Is around mid, and has an alright time against snakes toolkit. Sothe played out of his mind as well. It was hilarious watching and listening to the commentators incredulity at his level up from the day before.

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP I completely agree. He has some very good attributes. A large dashdance, with a great dashattack attached to it. A nice grab game that sets up well for his incredible edgegaurd potential. His moves all do significant % for his speed. His arrows are one of the best projectiles in the game. His ability to force others to come to him with arrows, or force low recoverys is amazing as well. His kill moves pack a significant punch (usmash and bair). Some of his moves really need to actually work, similar to Link. It seems that people know what he needs to be a real contender. When people stop falling out of is nair and usmash he will be solid.
 
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_Chrome

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I guess I should've elaborated. I meant to ask as well that people elaborate on their posts so that we have rich discussion fill this thread again. No Classic Smashboarder and dropping a 'What' without a 'Why' or 'How'.
 

Farquaad

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Sothe didn't win because Ivysaur is better than expected, he won because he outplayed Professor Pro. People would rather talk about Ivy being good than Sothe.

PS, it's wrong to say DF doesn't ever contribute. Without him, I wouldn't know that S Q U I R T L E I S B U L L S H I T
 
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Saproling

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Ivys current spot in the meta that she fits 100% is a last game counter pick due to most people having a pocket melee character that they can pull out to just take a game back.She does good against characters a lot seem to have some trouble with Luigi,Wario G&W characters of that nature just beat them in neutral with pokes and play patient slow the match down. She doesn't win them super hard but thats what she got in the current meta. As for how she could be improved its mainly her neutral game that needs fixed im okay with Ivy being fragile I think it makes sense that a walling character when gotten in on she have some trouble but her walling isn't actually good enough to justify this design for her in the top half of the cast.Mainly she needs some start up and lag shaved off the only nerf I feel thats super justified is a reduction in healing.

Im gonna post some changes first then go into some detail for them afterwords.

invincibility on bulb hurtbox during the active frames of up smash up air and down air
Ivysaurs Jumpsquat from 5 frames to 4 frames
Up throw charge/heal gained from 6 to 3
Up smash charge/heal gained from 9/10/11/12 to 8/9/10/11
Up/down air charge/heal gained from 7 to 5
Amount of charge needed for a solarbeam from 22 to 20
Forward air active frames from 15-19 to frames 12-16
Forward airs ASAI from frame 35 to frame 32 (adjusted to fit)
Up airs sweetspot hitbox BKB from 50 to 47 bkb
Up smash sweetspot hitbox KBG from 150 to 145 KBG
Back airs first hits active frames from frames 7-10 to frames 6-9
Back airs second hit active frames from frames 17-19 to frames 16-18
Back airs first hit now does 3% damage down from 4% damage
Back airs second hit inner hitboxes now do 6% damage down from 7% damage
Back airs tip hitbox now does 9% damage up from 8% damage
Back airs landing lag from 17 to 14
Down airs sweetspot is now a spike
Up airs landing lag from 21 frames to 19 frames
Late falling hitbox from up air now does 5% damage down from 6% damage
Up/down airs sourspot hitboxes are 5% larger
Up/down air and up smash sweetspot hitboxes are 3% larger
Neutral airs landing lag from 14 frames to 12 frames
Nuetral airs finishing hits KBG from 190 down to 175 KBG
All grabs come out 3 frames faster
Up throw ASAI from frame 53 to frame 50
Down throw is no longer weight dependent
Second hit of down tilt replaced so that it doesn't connect sometimes when the first hit will
Down tilts second hit inner hitboxes damage down from 5% damage to 4% damage
Up tilts active hitboxes from 9-15 to 7-13
Up tilts body hitboxes damage down from 9% damage to 8% damage
Up tilts side vine hitbox damage down from 8% damage to 7% damage
Shield damage on last hit of forward tilt from 4 to 8 shield damage
Start up on razerleaf from frame 22 to frame 20
Endlag on razerleaf from 27 to 23 frames (side B)
Damage on hits of razerleaf down from 3% damage to 2.5% damage
The final/farthest hit on razer leaf removed

Better neutral better links into set ups better way to challenge but with them not doing quite as much for Ivysaur.
Weaker yet less commitment might need more nerfs to damage or KBG but this is a decent start IMO.
Take the lag reduction and faster up tilt now spacies cant shine out inbetween them so we have a true way to catch them.Or the lag reduction on bair so we can connect crossup first hit then FF bair into jabs or ftilt. Or just making it so spacing well with down tilt doesn't do anything and spacing for the kill with bair is more rewarding while sloppy spacing isn't this not only makes Ivy perform better but it adds more to think about.
I would love feedback even if its super harsh because theres always more to learn.
Keep in mind this is with other low characters also getting buffs because she would destroy them if they were in their current states as well.
 
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Mr.Pickle

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Idk I just don't feel like there's enough information about ivy to make an accurate assumption of her placement. Like I've beaten soathe a couple times before, and then he hit the pickler with some stuff I've never seen before and he three faced me, like bad. When I saw his match against professor pro, I felt like pro was having the same experience I was, lack of knowledge was very evident. He just didn't know optimal counter play towards ivy's options, and soathe knows his ivy shiz. Ivy's bair and recovery are kinda stupid, but I hardly saw anything that screamed that a attribute needed to be adjusted. So in short, all that proved was soathe did good, and we know nothing about ivy.
 
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DrinkingFood

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TIL telling people that aren't experts that their opinions aren't as good as an expert's isn't acceptable. I'm basically an astrophysicist and none of you can tell me otherwise

The reason I don't participate here much anymore (I used to) is because I'm not a discussion starter. I would participate in discussions more if there were many top players here very often but that doesn't seem to be the case as much as it used to. Odds already said it, except he didn't get dog piled because he tip toed around everyone sensitives- discussing with better players is more engaging discussion, so now he just talks internally with the PMDT. I'm not usually interested in having discussion here anymore but sometimes I'm bored enough to come here but all I see is people blowing hot air, so I call them on it. Because maybe it'll get them to stop so better discussion can happen. But it seems all it does is make them self righteous and endow them with victim status (the most powerful). Ultimately I'm not that worried because PMDT knows better than to get info from this thread.

Tl;dr yeah something something my ego something something greater than thou, it's that simple if you don't want to believe anything else
 

Luk101

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DrinkingFood DrinkingFood what posts do you feel like were "hot air" in the past few days? I'm legitimately curious and if it includes some of my own posts, then even better cause I haven't participated much on smash boards till a couple of days ago so I'd like to know what is considered a quality post and what isn't.
 
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TheGravyTrain

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If it was the way you said it was, sure. But you are severely misrepresenting the way you "discuss". In my anecdotal experience, you disregard what non top players say and you don't explain why someone might be wrong, citing you are "busy". What's weird is, at least for Squirtle discussions, you ignore the well thought out responses like from Pegthaniel or myself and respond to Plate of all people. Or that time you said Squirtle recovery is too hard for R.O.B. to edgeguard. I respond with a perfectly logical response and you ignore it. Or when you condemn every post that isn't from the top player elites because if they had good ideas why aren't they top players yet. Sure you said there can be good ideas, but again you bring up the "I'm too busy to weed through all the fluff" pretentious response.
 

Life

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For what it's worth, a lot of the time I say things that I'm not sure are really good ideas with the expectation that someone will come along and disagree with me--and then I can refine or otherwise alter my idea into something better. See my comments re: Pit dtilt last page.

Used to be I'd hedge just about every argument I made with "I'm not really sure, but what if X" or "I'm not a top player, but [what I've heard from top players is] X" but I've been trying to move away from that.
 

nimigoha

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For what it's worth, a lot of the time I say things that I'm not sure are really good ideas with the expectation that someone will come along and disagree with me--and then I can refine or otherwise alter my idea into something better. See my comments re: Pit dtilt last page.

Used to be I'd hedge just about every argument I made with "I'm not really sure, but what if X" or "I'm not a top player, but [what I've heard from top players is] X" but I've been trying to move away from that.
So basically you think Pit's Dtilt should be sped up a bit and more like Mario or Roy's Dtilt? Just did a quick look and approximately 17 characters have a Dtilt that functions like this (albeit with grossly different KB curves like Fox vs Mario).

One that functioned a lot like Sonic's would be neat.
 

Jamble

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A lot of people have big skill limitations, varying levels of experience, etc. Personally, I'm here talking about this game because I don't know it so deeply yet. I am a scrub. I'm not consistent with a lot of techs, combos, etc. I haven't even had the time out of work and just my own personal life to participate in any tournaments or friendlies at my local scene. I lack consistent practice partners, and basically am trying to get better by labbing as mindfully as I can and discussing it constantly. When I'm shown that I'm wrong on any number of things, it's something I'm able to at least internalize and apply to my actual game a little bit to improve. That's why I think that just because somebody may not have a keen understanding of the discussion at hand, doesn't mean they shouldn't be made welcome to participate and learn from it. Sometimes people in the heat of things can get a little dismissive, which I'm sure can be a little alienating for newcomers in the community.

In a game where there are already some very potent, fleshed out characters with weird techs, abilities, and strategies of their own like Metaknight and the spacies that people are fine with, I'm really baffled that I see people complaining about characters like Game and Watch and Wario. Many complaints are honestly about how their attacks work in really weird ways, but people need to realize that Spacies are widely accepted and loved, and my god are those characters weird in how they function. The difference is they've been continually developed and counterplayed for over a decade by an incredibly robust and active community to a point of incredibly keen understanding, where people understand the style and counterplay to them well. It's easy to bring up a problem, but constructive solutions are really important. Judging by what's happened in a lot of games with competitive scenes, these issues can often be addressed by the players rather than things like patching a bunch of changes. It just means maybe we have to adjust our attitudes and playstyles against certain characters accordingly. Some characters may need tweaks or something, but since that's out of your power, focus on what we can do. Seeing the meta develop fluidly is more helpful to developers than forum arguments, I'm sure.

It might be best to let the dust settle and approach things with an open mind before we make up our minds on which characters are broken and whatnot. I know I am. Mostly because as a newbie I really have no other choice, but hey. Didn't mean to turn this into a rant or anything, though I think I might have hit that level. I'm not pretending to be an expert, journeyman, or even mildly-competent-scrub on the competitive scene at all, but this is kinda what's been churning in my head a bit lately through general observations.
 
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Nausicaa

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Yeah, all of those recent lists are pretty good at showing a general populace idea of a list.
At this point, aside from non-smash related links that I hope at least 1 person ever bothered to look into because they'll actually help anyone more than anything, all I really have left to say is things like...
Pikachu and Luigi

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP the Ooze thing wasn't really a 'joke' from the beginning. I'm sure you know, but I referred to him that way due to how he would wreck meta-games by nullifying everything, and therefore didn't really belong on a Tier List, at least anytime soon.
In under 2 years later he started to be considered an 'anti-meta' character for essentially the same reason.
Describing him as something like Ooze was simply a really appropriate idea, so I ran with it. Glad others have too.
Just shows how people can play in the sand long enough and eventually will make the castle. It's always been this way, all of my early-access to understandings simply comes from a knack of seeing the castle in the sand before it's fully formed. This is why I pick up on things that the DT doesn't catch for a while, and why I was approached for that as early as 2.1 when the community was still very young.

Edit: Again though, this isn't smash-related and has more to do with 'sight' of a certain kind, which those non-smash related things I talk about/link come in. But meh, everyone is too busy smashing it seems. :/ ha

It's pretty cool that things like DAT Wolf stuff is being implemented decently today. A few years is all it takes for things to flush out. The character barely changed, but people sure have.
Today, if a character like Wolf came out, there would be a flock to him and INSTANTLY following it, the meta-game for Wolf would explode.

Edit: There is a very observable and distinct difference in the way people approach the game today compared to early 2.1. Both PM and Smash4 being around for a while has helped people pick up on new things MUCH more effortlessly and efficiently.

However, we have multiple years of sand-box building clouding the vision of commonplace players. The bias has grown heavy among many, not so much the new players/posters/PMers, but they are susceptible to the multiple yearly polished statues and concepts that others have brought to the game, and both of these are observable. The DT seemingly has always had a cycled collection of them, but it's really difficult to mess up a game with a foundation as good as PM.

Edit: The tough work is out of the way for the most part. Fine-tuning can always be done, and it's the funner, more detailing work. Even if it's off from perfection, it will always be solid from here out. Good to see. PM has a good future and can't really fall into bad hands.


Discusssion stuff.
As for discussion here. It's generally quite solid. There is always flopping back and forth between lightness and intensity, this is what seriousness is built upon. People with heavy bias as intellectuals (boiko/umb/taste) will remain good beacons for specific knowledge uprooting, and others (didds/infinity/ripple) having a certain way of seeing the game that is presented well through their posting via the specific things they bring to the discussion.

This is life. Smashers are people, and there are plenty.


I enjoy this place. It's oddly the only place in this PM hub where I can freely discuss Smash as a greater-whole with a bunch of random people. What better way to learn?

^ Have THAT volition when posting here, and it's amazing how beneficial it is for everything from learning both the game, and enjoying conversation, and mixing the 2 together regarding something you like to have as a part of your life.

People (DF as the discussion-starter here) may have missed this at one time or another, but even those who don't understand (like him) still 'get' it. The same way a player who isn't a Melee-God can still 'get' why the Melee-Gods are better than not-Melee-Gods are. Why the DT can be loaded with average players and still make a great game for top level play. That's why EVERYONE who pops in here, pops in here.

This is a Smash community. A bunch of people in communion with a game to learn and grow as/with it.

When there is solid discussion, regardless of it being Smash or anything else in life, anywhere else, there are waves. Continuity implies discontinuity. The fact that someone can be 'on' their game implies that being 'off' their game HAS TO BE a thing. A thread discussing the whole-of-smash like this one HAS to be on/off to at least someone at all times, or no relating of ideas could even happen, and discussion wouldn't exist.

With that, I guess that's why there will always be someone who doesn't understand the discussion, and will think there's a 'problem' with the current posting. Regarding DF, when there was solid discussion about neutral interactions and intuitive understanding, he jumped in and said people had problems. Bias, feeling left out, wanting things to be about them, when it was him alone doing them all. Now, when the discussion is about something entirely different, it's the same thing. Phrases like 'if the discussion was about something else, I'd participate', when clearly that wasn't the case since the same thing happened in that case earlier.

Edit:
Remember, this is about relationships between 2 things. This is being brought up because it shows another side. When he (or anyone else) is 'on' his game, in the sense that the topic, people, points are about what he's comfortable with and interested in, he's absolutely brilliant. See the relationship here?

This never has anything to do with any topic that is in play, and all to do with people. Nearly everyone does it, that's what keeps everything interesting in discussions.

Edit: There is more than a growing in terms of ability to play Smash. There is the 'growing as people' that comes with something like a relationship. To anything, from the thread, to the topic, to the people in it.
Don't miss this.


Everyone is in relationships with each other here, that means reflection.
An understanding of that goes a long way.


For a random side-note, I'm pretty sure there have only been about 5 people who actually understand what Smash actually is who have come through here.
Not an intellectualizing of it, not a foundation of knowledge for it, not developed ability to play it, not experience with it, not way of describing it...
but this... - An actual intelligent and responsive observation of what the relationships and connections the game implies in application to life. The difference between a fanatic, and someone who has full embodiment of it through clarity. One couldn't be without the game without thinking about it extensively, and one who couldn't lose it even if it wasn't there.
Such a difference...




tl;dr
Again

"I enjoy this place. It's oddly the only place in this PM hub where I can freely discuss Smash as a greater-whole with a bunch of random people. What better way to learn?"

^ Have THAT volition when posting here, and it's amazing how beneficial it is for everything from learning both the game, and enjoying conversation, and mixing the 2 together regarding something you like to have as a part of your life.


On that note, I'm out as of tomorrow and won't be back to terrorize this place for many months.
Woop

edit: wtf orange how do I not be orange
there :p
annica mah smushers


Edit: put in a bunch of edits
 
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DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,592
Location
Beaumont, TX
It's not about being too busy. I have the time to weed through all the fluff. But answering the same ****in criticisms/questions (and not even about the game, but just about the way I decide who isn't really worth listening to) gets really old and takes time I'd rather use for practicing. Or not. I could just use that time to stare blankly at the wall. I'm not obliged to answer any number of questions, but naturally the most inaccurate ones or most inflammatory ones catch my attention best. So if you wanna know why I respond to plateprop lol.

Alternatively I could just address those posts for their content, detailing the issues and offering solutions that don't require changing the character. But that's not going to happen very often because A) that's a metric ****ton (larger than an imperial ****ton, mind you) of posts all requiring long responses generally detailing neutral concepts that i find in my experience most people don't understand, B) a lot of them either are blaming a bad players failure on their character or trying to separate a good players success from their character (Ivy isn't good, sothe is just a god; snake isn't good, prof is just a god; repeat ad nauseum), C) not many people understand formal logic and/or just have too harshly ingrained biases to be able to change their mind at the time, D) players that ARE suffering from lack of ability without knowing it or knowing why don't always have gameplay footage available to look at and go "here's something you aren't ever doing that's leaving a hole in your neutral/costing you stocks on recovery/worsening your punishes/etc," E) I'm often on mobile and have lost interest in discussion by the time I get home.

The next steps in this conversation are people who took offense to my points and state that none of them apply to them, people who ignored the whole post (or read it and will now use it to confirm) and repeat ad hominems, people who ignored the post and instead encourage a response to various things, probably an infraction for derailing the thread... and my phone running out of batteries. Maybe I'll make an effort for real discussion when I have access to my desktop.
 
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Player -0

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
5,125
Location
Helsong's Carpeted Floor
I kind of skipped/skimmed most of the thread since I last read it but a couple of things.

1. I've seen it mentioned that Knee is +-0 on shield. In Melee it was +1. I'm wondering if there's something different about the physics/whatever that effects this or people just saying wrong stuff.

2. Re-confirm that electric element doesn't affect shield hitlag. I saw a calculation that included the hitlag modifier from the electric element by Strong Bad that stated it was +5. I assume this was just an oversight during the calculation but never hurts to check. With this in mind is it known why people say that post shield stun electric moves are a bunch safer than pre-patch electric moves in Smash 4?

3. Also Falcon's Up B looks like it can grab ledge a lot later in the Up B when grabbing the ledge in Melee rather than Project M (obviously when Falcon's back is facing towards the ledge). Can anyone confirm that it's different or have I just not done that (or remember doing that).

@Strong Bad

Edit -
...and my phone running out of batteries...
Wait, your smart phone runs on batteries (key note plural)?
 
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Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,629
1. Knee is not +1 in melee it is also even. Uair is +1

2. It is confirmed via #1 since knee isn't absurdly positive on shield
 

GabPR

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
1,356
Location
Puerto Rico
Which characters do you think are the most underrepresented in the cast? By this I mean characters that lack a high or higher level player to make the most out of of its toolkit? If you think this to be so, what are your reason to believe that?

Ill start with Sonic (For the most part because he is the character that I am most familiar with). He ia a character that has an absurd amount of depth, mostly due to the fact that he has one of, if not the most extensive ammount of different properties on each of his different specials and normals (more so his specials) All which can be used to provide movement, combo and even unique options (grounded spring shenanigans) the last one being only one of his many vastly unexplored areas.

I believe many known Sonic mains are beggining to peek at this inmense ammount of depth, with the most recent and important development being dair spike combo extenders and finishers from what I have observed, and THAT hasnt even been fully developed yet!

I am still waiting to see a Sonic that can truly utilize his kit to at least more than half of its potential, but that may still take some time.
 

Player -0

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
5,125
Location
Helsong's Carpeted Floor
1. Knee is not +1 in melee it is also even. Uair is +1

2. It is confirmed via #1 since knee isn't absurdly positive on shield
Do you know of any source/thingy mabob that confirms answer to #1? Strong Bad did some math and minus the +4 advantage due to the electric element it came out to be +1. Also saw some other places that it was +1.

Speaking of which, do you know how exactly the 1 frame delay in the physics engine affects things?

I assume you don't know but do you know about the Smash 4 part of question 2? I'll probably just check a Smash 4 thread but never hurts to ask (or I guess it does sometimes but whatever).

Edit - One of the Melee Falcon things. I can get the Strong Bag post if you want: https://youtu.be/qAUVzXOct4o?t=52m50s
 
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