Tier List Speculation

[tasteless gentleman]

I honestly have not got beaten by a pit since 3.02... i just feel like hes terribly easy to gimp and his throws are so-so, this along with some of his multi hit moves are DI-escapable... Meh i mean he is not terrible. But i can't exactly pick out any strengths either. Like what can he do better than the rest of the cast? Know what i mean?

Warios bite is good until you figure out what beats it and how to punish it. But he does have some really really good attributes that can make him tough. Ever been swallowcided by wario? Its kinda hilarious to watch and infuriating on the recieving end and have you ever been spiked/Meteored/whatever it does by wario's butt Dair when you THOUGHT you had the advantage? Some of his stuff just ignores the "rules".

How do we feel about bowser's dair? Because i am having a hard time figuring out an actual use for it that is not trumped by another tool... I figured out a use for all of bowser's tools and have been incorporating and improving because of it. But I can't for the life of me figure out what good dair is. Anyways, i learned to like bowser and to work around bad match ups so at this point any improvements will be gravy. Also it would be pretty nice if Bowser could gain air momentum outside of waveland (its not that much anyway). But I am pretty sure we all heard this horse enough. Was just an idle thought.

Falcon... is just weird. He has such a great FAIR and yet so many things combo into it with little to no committment due to cross ups.

I played a really good sonic a few days ago and hes totally hard if you have no MU knowledge, but once you figure out his recovery patterns and that he has no priority or disjoint, its pretty easy.

Same with Ike and his recovery and throws. Maybe i am looking too hard at ikes recovery but with a good stage pick you can stop alot of his recovery and once you learn his throws you can mitigate alot of strings.

EDIT

Before i forget, i won another tournament (monthly local) using almost only up B OOS, fire breath, bowser bomb, KK, and FAIR/UAIR and my Grandfinals match was a falcon (which knew the match up so it was only grabs and air attacks from him). Made for a very lame to watch Grand final and I sorta have an issue with boring matches and lame gameplay. Not sure how to suggest it to be addressed. But it was a very long drawn out and mentally exhausting match and I don't think characters should be limited to such tool sets.

 

[FreeGamer]

Which characters do you think are the most underrepresented in the cast? By this I mean characters that lack a high or higher level player to make the most out of of its toolkit? If you think this to be so, what are your reason to believe that?

I'd say... Yoshi, Pika, Kirby, Pit, and Oli. All for different reasons. :s

 

[nimigoha]

Do you know of any source/thingy mabob that confirms answer to #1? Strong Bad did some math and minus the +4 advantage due to the electric element it came out to be +1. Also saw some other places that it was +1.

Speaking of which, do you know how exactly the 1 frame delay in the physics engine affects things?

I assume you don't know but do you know about the Smash 4 part of question 2? I'll probably just check a Smash 4 thread but never hurts to ask (or I guess it does sometimes but whatever).

Edit - One of the Melee Falcon things. I can get the Strong Bag post if you want: https://youtu.be/qAUVzXOct4o?t=52m50s

1. Knee is not +1 in melee it is also even. Uair is +1

2. It is confirmed via #1 since knee isn't absurdly positive on shield

Falcon's Fair does 18% unstaled in both games. L canceled landing lag for both games is 9 frames. Uair is 13% in both games with 7 frames of L canceled lag. Shield stun formula is (X + 4.45) / 2.235 in both games.

(18+4.45)/2.235 = 10.0447427293 which rounds down to 10 frames of blockstun. Doesn't this mean Knee is +1?

(13+4.45)/2.235 = 7.80760626398 which rounds down to 7 frames of blockstun. Doesn't this mean Uair is even?

Please let me know where my math falters, I got the blockstun formula from the wiki. Melee frame data here:http://smashboards.com/threads/capt...eset-frame-data-and-moonwalking-guide.222781/

PM frame data here: http://smashboards.com/threads/captain-falcon-frame-data-3-5.385791/

The PM frame data says 9 frames of blockstun, my calculation gets 10?

Just trying to figure this out.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I thought I heard that Electric multipliers in Melee forced the shielder to go through more hitlag. Maybe that was old info and that's not true. That could be the source of of the +4ish number.

 

[Smash John]

snip

He can't hit with knee the same frame he lands, so you have to add at least 1 frame for him to touch the ground after it being blocked.

and just tested in game. it is 10 frames. that might have been a typo

edit: TIL. you're right. but it is 10 frames of blockstun so yeah. +1 it seems

 

[nimigoha]

He can't hit with knee the same frame he lands, so you have to add at least 1 frame for him to touch the ground after it being blocked.

and just tested in game. it is 10 frames. that might have been a typo

I saw in multiple threads that blockstun didn't include the frame the move hits though. I'll definitely check in debug mode tomorrow though.

 

[Strong Badam]

1. Knee is not +1 in melee it is also even. Uair is +1

2. It is confirmed via #1 since knee isn't absurdly positive on shield

Yea, this is right. Should be even.

Actually I don't really get it anymore. Math says +1.

 

[Bazkip]

In regards to Smash 4, one of the parts of the shield was that hitlag multipliers apply when hitting shields, when they didn't pre-patch (nor did they ever apply in any other Smash game).

 

[D e l t a]

Which characters do you think are the most underrepresented in the cast? By this I mean characters that lack a high or higher level player to make the most out of of its toolkit? If you think this to be so, what are your reason to believe that?

Might be some scrutiny and conflicted opinions to my list, but here goes...

Wolf: There's been players throughout every patch that main the character and perform well, yet all the tools aren't fully put together. Neon's pushing Wolf's meta as far as he did with Lucas, but he's still lacking solid fundamentals that make him a contender with other top, national threat players. Chillin, Rat, Scythe, and many other Wolf's I can't remember off the top of my head, all very good players, but they haven't done much other than win because they're good. Wolf's blaster having the ability to waveland allows for Samus-esque camping with double blasters. His punish game is getting there. I still say he could 0-death characters more often if someone labbed that harder. His followups off grab seem to be lacking IMO and people are only starting to get all the timings for frame perfect shortens. Not to discredit any Wolf players. The character takes a **** ton of work and feels underrepresented to me

Lucas: Similar reasons as above. The best Lucas out there is currently Hyperflame with Kipcom trailing behind him. After that, the character representation on a national, let alone regional level declines quickly. His punish game could definitely be improved rather than the community getting hyped over Dair -> Dair "combos" that lead into upsmash. Recovery aspects, neutral, and fundamentals are lacking. There isn't much counterplay developed against Lucas and people let the character get away with too many things like PKF hit confirms and not SDI'ing combos properly.
If only I didn't have a mental block and tunnel vision when it came to playing, I could definitely showcase so much of his tech.....

Agreed with under-rep of Sonic mains. Not too many of those guys left anymore

Puff: Hbox from time to time and Soulpech primarily are the only Puff mains. Makes since seeing as the character has so many counters.

ZSS: Only Jwaterfalls and a few others. It's like Falcon with a projectile in neutral, so there isn't much to develop outside of fundamentals. Interesting there aren't many more ZSS players out there

I wouldn't say Kirby is underrepresented, so much as Tetraflora hasn't been using the character as much lately Kappa. But seriously, she's shown almost everything the character can do. Now she just has to learn matchups and attend more tourneys OOS/OOR. inb4 boyfriend Johns

Pit: Obvious reasons. I think the character is really solid outside of lacking easy and guaranteed kill setups or a kill throw.

Oli/ICs/Peach/Zelda tier: If only they were somehow better without being game breaking...

==

I feel characters like Ness, Snake, Fox, GnW, and even Roy/Wario are massively represented in tourney due to their easier to pick up styles and guaranteed kill select options.

By that I mean Ness & Fox can throw out aerials in neutral that have low endlag which make them less susceptible to being punished (Fair & Nair, respectively), while having setups from their throws into kills like Ness' Dthrow -> Nair or Fox's classic Uthrow -> Uair.

Or Snake & GnW camping in neutral until they get a grab or Dtilt combo starter. Then Snake's C4 or GnW's Dtilt for instance, will net easy kills that don't take any effort to pull off

Or GnW, Roy, and sometimes Wario's down tilts that stop crouch cancelling / ASDI down from characters, are frame 6, 8, and 5, respectively, and lead into their powerful kill options.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wario's Dtilt sucks vs CC. Loses to it over 100%. I basically only use it as an edgeguard. He has much better options vs CC like nair, bair, grab, and chomp.

 

[Zoa]

So there is no electric modifier for shieldstun? Also isn't the universal modifier for hitstun .4 of the amount of knockback sustained? I'm trying to figure these mathematical equations out.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So played PM for the first time in literally months.

I forgot how damn smooth/fun/bloody perfect Ike is. I was sucking extra hard with every character that wasn't Ike because the rust on the game is significant, but my QD tech has apparently been burned into muscle memory quite well. Also is it me or is it significantly easier to fight Roy now?

Might get back into the swing of things a bit. Posting here often is kinda pointless though, I went blue in the face a while ago from all the repetition necessary to get a point across.

I will say people need to stop being so quick to judge characters as underpowered, especially characters with self-apparently excellent tools like Ivysaur. I don't extend this to everyone considered weak, such as, say, DK, simply because of how much disparity there is between the apparent power of his moveset v/s someone like Ivy's moveset.

Consider what sort of platform DK is. No projectiles, heavily reliant on his grabs [more than the average Smash character, even accounting just how central grabs are in this game], single DJ, big body, mobility that isn't bad but isn't impressive either. His best way of pressuring/forcing a threat zone is DD and his defenses are about average, with good CC and a situational Up-B OoS, but a jumpsquat on the low end and in the fallspeed/weight/size sweetspot that makes him pitifully easy to combo.

Then look at Ivy. Pretty boned in straight up defensive tools like CC or Up-B OoS and also strangely easy to combo, but just a much better package. Really solid disjoint and zoning tools, an amazing edgueguarding package with the reach of Up-B and its snap-speed in addition to the bair and beautiful comeback/swing mechanics in the Solarbeam and Heals. A character like DK can rarely dictate the pace of a match, while Ivy can choose her engagements and puts immense pressure on the opponent simply by running about, getting Solarbeam charges and forcing commitments. And that pressure is real and very often pays off in big ways.

Call KOTN a one-off if you want but you can't seriously claim Ivy is in the bottom 20.

 

[Strong Badam]

all the "weak" characters are way stronger than "weak" implies in other games. you can't sleep on even the worst char in this game imo

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You can if you're Jigglypuff

ayyyyy

 

[Farquaad]

~~~oops~~~

 

[nimigoha]

but you can't seriously claim Ivy is in the bottom 20.

24 characters that I think are better than Ivy. I think she's bottom 20. All I need are 21 characters so even if you pick 3 here that you think are worse than her she's bottom 20. This isn't even all the ones I think are better, just the ones I think people might generally struggle with saying she's better.

This game has a high concentration in the overall strength. Like imagine a bell curve that was really high and thin. A few outliers but the differences aren't huge and usually separating them into tiers with clear cutoff points is sorta a false representation of characters below certain cutoffs (at least until there's general consensus on matchup data... check back in 2 years).

all the "weak" characters are way stronger than "weak" implies in other games. you can't sleep on even the worst char in this game imo

We can point out flaws in characters all day and night but what I like about this game is that characters are designed to operate in a general fashion. We got lucky in Melee that the Ken combo works so well. HAL employees if you're reading this please correct me but I don't see them sitting around Marth's beta models and saying "well if we increase the BKB of the Forward Aerial, it will be easier to combo into Dair at more percents and this means Marth is a better character". Falco's Shine>Dair, Fox's Uthrow>Uair, you name it. Top tier characters are the ones whose moveset flows into itself in most situations and on the other end of the spectrum you have characters like Pichu who can do a bunch of Uairs that do like no damage at all or Nairs or hurt itself.

People tend to try to debase PM by saying "lel that game is just easy autocombos, it's too flowcharty, blah blah blah" yet still get hyped when S2J lands a stomp to knee. My mom could learn that in 20 minutes.

I think that the PMDT designing characters to, to some degree, a certain way is a great thing. Melee Kirby wouldn't suck so much if his Dash Attack combod into Utilt (like it does pretty well in PM).

By giving every character tools to punish their opponent (IMO very complete across the whole cast, there's no character I'd say "good luck making a combo video for him") or win neutral (maybe a bit more work here needed for certain characters but I think more time is needed) the PMDT have designed a game where if you know how to work your character you will be rewarded. Yes some characters more than others. Yes some need a bit more help. But as any character once you get in you can go in for the gfycat and that's all we ever want.

The main thing I'm curious about in the DT is how much of the rebalancing is "that frame data could be a bit better" or "maybe this shouldn't combo all the way to that percent" and how much is "this character's matchup spread is wildly positive/negative, what is causing this and how can we address it". But the latter is something that 100% needs time to address. Curious to see the kinds of nerfs/buffs going forwards. All I can do is wait and see.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wario's Dtilt sucks vs CC. Loses to it over 100%. I basically only use it as an edgeguard. He has much better options vs CC like nair, bair, grab, and chomp.

something something not always crouching

you know this SB

not so say other options aren't better, but MOST things that aren't powerhouse moves lose to true CC til high or highish percents.

edit: herp missed context like a dummy

24 characters that I think are better than Ivy. I think she's bottom 20. All I need are 21 characters so even if you pick 3 here that you think are worse than her she's bottom 20. This isn't even all the ones I think are better, just the ones I think people might generally struggle with saying she's better.

This game has a high concentration in the overall strength. Like imagine a bell curve that was really high and thin. A few outliers but the differences aren't huge and usually separating them into tiers with clear cutoff points is sorta a false representation of characters below certain cutoffs (at least until there's general consensus on matchup data... check back in 2 years).

uhh but you kinda need evidence to reasonably say "these characters are stronger than ivy." always say it, gonna say it again, character viability isn't standalone, it's based on matchups, are you going to detail all those characters matchups and all of ivies and state why the ones she loses and they don't are important and the ones she wins and they don't aren't important?

No, that's not what I want you to do, that's not my point. My point is the discussion of who is top/bottom/etc doesn't have meaning unless you give it the correct meaning, and right now it seems like a lot of posters just flounder around discussing overall character strength as some perceived linear scale that's just so easily solved. It's really not.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah discussing placements of certain characters wasn't the point of my post but the idea was that if Thane can say "but you can't seriously claim Ivy is in the bottom 20" without providing matchup data analysis I have no reason to provide it either and have equal right to parade my bottom 17 characters with Ivy in there somewhere. Again, not my point.

I stand by something I said weeks ago; this thread isn't really about tier list discussion, at least not any sort of meaningful tier list. It's either discuss weak points of characters (except in a general thread and not that character's specific thread discussed by mains so there's probably a smaller ratio of knowledgeable points) and what we should do to fix them or make random lists.

It's absolutely not a linear scale, if we want to talk about a tier list based on anything presuming to present itself as data we should be having discussion in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-community-mu-chart-αlpha.411668/

But of course that comes with its own problems, namely the opinions of random people like me on the internet that have no real standing and no results to back anything up. "I think that Fox : Pit is 60:40" is incredibly subjective and you have loads of comments like this all over character matchup threads and the MU Chart thread. That's just how games like this work and I've never really believed in it.

Plus there's no clear cut line in what peoples tier lists are representing. "ICs are good I think but they don't have any representation or much development but they have potential, so I'm putting them in C tier" while Wolf, who has relatively little representation is theorycrafted to be a top tier character (with representation in Neon but honestly I've seen about as much Phresh as Neon recently).

What I mean to say is: tires don exits. A skilled Bowser can beat any Falcon.

Okay not really but this thread is 1005 pages in and close to 3 years old, what has been accomplished? Not pseudo-data like MU spreads (which is I guess to a degree "the lesser of two evils" the two evils being "randomly place characters in order from 1-41 and arbitrarily divide them into 4-7 sections" and "ballpark how matchups work and turn it into concrete data and arrange the mean in order"). I just randomly dove to page 207 and it's more of the same stuff we have now, just in 3.0 instead of 3.6 and it's people making random assessments of character matchups with nothing behind it.

Been thinking a lot about Odds' post a week or so back. Let's just keep playing.

It's 5:30 and 20XXTE comes out in almost 12 hours. I am tired.

 

[eideeiit]

^
I really support changing the name of the thread into something like "general character strength disc. thread" or something.

 

[Strong Badam]

something something not always crouching

you know this SB

not so say other options aren't better, but MOST things that aren't powerhouse moves lose to true CC til high or highish percents.

It's bad vs asdi down too, not just true crouch. Putting it in the same sentence as roy or gw dtilt is just misleading. I've used all 3 a bunch and Wario's is just not used in the same way. Lower bkb, comparable growth, angle is 15-20 degrees worse for comboing, uses his finger instead of a disjoint like the other two, etc etc

 

[Player -0]

In regards to Smash 4, one of the parts of the shield was that hitlag multipliers apply when hitting shields, when they didn't pre-patch (nor did they ever apply in any other Smash game).

And I assume this means properties of moves (such as electric) affects shields too. Makes sense.

Edit - Clarifying: Hitlag modifiers applied when hitting shield. The thing is they only affected the attacker, the shielder was only affected by the base hitlag of the move. Since the hitlag is now matched, many moves became a lot more safe (only due to the hitlag changes. Of course some became less safe but the overall shieldstun change helps that).

 

[Zach777]

I honestly have not got beaten by a pit since 3.02... i just feel like hes terribly easy to gimp and his throws are so-so, this along with some of his multi hit moves are DI-escapable... Meh i mean he is not terrible. But i can't exactly pick out any strengths either. Like what can he do better than the rest of the cast? Know what i mean?

Warios bite is good until you figure out what beats it and how to punish it. But he does have some really really good attributes that can make him tough. Ever been swallowcided by wario? Its kinda hilarious to watch and infuriating on the recieving end and have you ever been spiked/Meteored/whatever it does by wario's butt Dair when you THOUGHT you had the advantage? Some of his stuff just ignores the "rules".

How do we feel about bowser's dair? Because i am having a hard time figuring out an actual use for it that is not trumped by another tool... I figured out a use for all of bowser's tools and have been incorporating and improving because of it. But I can't for the life of me figure out what good dair is. Anyways, i learned to like bowser and to work around bad match ups so at this point any improvements will be gravy. Also it would be pretty nice if Bowser could gain air momentum outside of waveland (its not that much anyway). But I am pretty sure we all heard this horse enough. Was just an idle thought.

Falcon... is just weird. He has such a great FAIR and yet so many things combo into it with little to no committment due to cross ups.

I played a really good sonic a few days ago and hes totally hard if you have no MU knowledge, but once you figure out his recovery patterns and that he has no priority or disjoint, its pretty easy.

Same with Ike and his recovery and throws. Maybe i am looking too hard at ikes recovery but with a good stage pick you can stop alot of his recovery and once you learn his throws you can mitigate alot of strings.

EDIT

Before i forget, i won another tournament (monthly local) using almost only up B OOS, fire breath, bowser bomb, KK, and FAIR/UAIR and my Grandfinals match was a falcon (which knew the match up so it was only grabs and air attacks from him). Made for a very lame to watch Grand final and I sorta have an issue with boring matches and lame gameplay. Not sure how to suggest it to be addressed. But it was a very long drawn out and mentally exhausting match and I don't think characters should be limited to such tool sets.

Bowser dair has some good uses. The one I like the most is trading the first hit of dair with spacies upb so they get spiked and cry while the pop up I recieved saves me.

Another use for dair is that if you are high in the air and your opponent is right below you, come down with a ff dair racking up damage and dragging your opponent with you.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Player -0

That was all still Smash 4 shields, right?
For anyone curious, in PM hitlag modifiers (whether greater or lesser) for the attacker only are applied. In 3.0, magnet was even safer on shield because it had less hitlag. Also in 3.0, Zelda critical hit was less safe on shield due to a 1.4 hitlag multiplier. The shielder always goes through hitlag as if there was no multiplier, just based off damage.

As for not going into mu charts and total justification on a characters placement. I think its a valid point that people need to keep in mind, but I still don't think it invalidates this thread. This game isn't near developed enough for mu discussions to be practical (or at least, high enough quality to be held as the gold standard). So while people may put too much weight in the actual placing decision, the discussion that follows, imo of course, is helpful and worthwhile. Not always, it isn't perfect, but it is productive.

 

[D e l t a]

It's bad vs asdi down too, not just true crouch. Putting it in the same sentence as roy or gw dtilt is just misleading. I've used all 3 a bunch and Wario's is just not used in the same way. Lower bkb, comparable growth, angle is 15-20 degrees worse for comboing, uses his finger instead of a disjoint like the other two, etc etc

Sorry if my post was a bit misleading. I'm not saying it was a win-all-beat-all move, or that it was extremely superior to other Dtilts and had incredible disjoint, armor, knockback, etc. I was saying that the move has great uses and is easy to work with. A hit confirm leads into relatively easy auto-combos.

I've used all 3 as well and even found that Roy's Dtilt feels much slower than I originally thought.

Their Dtilts, or grabs, or whatever other move I could've listed, are simply a base example that I was using as to why there's more frequency of these characters IMO. Arguing semantics over a character's properties all day and privide as much frame data as you want. At the end of a day, most people don't care about that. They just like being able to do cool things and use characters that can be played with ease.

 

[Player -0]

Player -0

That was all still Smash 4 shields, right?

Yeah.

 

[Strong Badam]

Sorry if my post was a bit misleading. I'm not saying it was a win-all-beat-all move, or that it was extremely superior to other Dtilts and had incredible disjoint, armor, knockback, etc. I was saying that the move has great uses and is easy to work with. A hit confirm leads into relatively easy auto-combos.

But it doesn't, and that was the point of my post. The angle is 65, so DIing away gets you away from any guaranteed followup, unlike Roy/G&W's who are 80/85 respectively.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Why aren't we buffing Luigi? omg

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Arguing semantics over a character's properties all day and privide as much frame data as you want. At the end of a day, most people don't care about that. They just like being able to do cool things and use characters that can be played with ease.

Uh, what? Why does what "most people care about" have any relevance to a discussion? Just because most players don't dig deep into the frame data does not mean it isn't relevant to the success of a character. All that means is it might not sway said people in an argument.

Back to the Falcon knee discussion. Just personally tested in Melee: it is +1. Also tested in PM, it was also +1.
@Ripple Strong Badam Player -0

 

[nimigoha]

Uh, what? Why does what "most people care about" have any relevance to a discussion? Just because most players don't dig deep into the frame data does not mean it isn't relevant to the success of a character. All that means is it might not sway said people in an argument.

Back to the Falcon knee discussion. Just personally tested in Melee: it is +1. Also tested in PM, it was also +1.
@Ripple Strong Badam Player -0

Yes! Math never lies!

 

[Deleted member]

So played PM for the first time in literally months.

i remember when you were like "hey i've been here for 10 months and i understand this game better than some of the 5+ year veterans"

and then you got the apathy that people get from understanding that

let's suffer together.

ivysaur is bottom 5 imo. like ness.

 

[Player -0]

i remember when you were like "hey i've been here for 10 months and i understand this game better than some of the 5+ year veterans"

and then you got the apathy that people get from understanding that

let's suffer together.

ivysaur is bottom 5 imo. like ness.

Can I join the suffering club?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I don't think Ness is great or anything, but not bottom 5 imo. Ivy sucks though. I need to watch Sothe a couple times to make sure though.

 

[Saproling]

There were tons of grabs off of double jabs on shield that Prof could have gotten in those sets. Im not gonna go into detail how much he could have abused CC because thats just stupidly apparent.Both could have played better but I don't think either had much experience with the others character.

 

[Life]

Bigger question: how DO you separate "good player of a bad character" from "good character?"

If I'm always thinking "okay the other player could have done XYZ" then I know it's the case, but at the same time that only catches the really obvious stuff and gets a lot of false positives ("I mean, technically you could've teched that stage spike buuuuuuuut...") and it also requires me to have a thorough understanding of counterplay in the matchup which I might not have as much of as I think I do.

 

[Jamble]

I think the elephant in the room here is that if a character is able to compete at that high of a level in the right hands, can a character really be considered that bad in the first place? Obviously the character is capable enough to outperform many other very skilled players, and if it's considered "low tier", does the character's strength relative to other competitors even matter enough for rebalancing purposes when it can still be a contender?

If the line is really that blurry with several members of the cast, I feel like the actual difference in the character's viability is fairly negligible.

 

[FreeGamer]

If Ness is bottom 5, then you're probably playing 2.0 or 2.1 by mistake.

 

[Life]

Characters can get fortunate brackets that make them look better than they would be if they had to face everyone (GnW not facing Marth for example). Additionally, there aren't highly competent players of every character, or even most characters depending on the height of your standards. (You weren't around for this Jamble, but I used to be on a pretty big "nobody is actually good at PM" kick.) And even when there is a good player of a character (e.g. Junebug's Diddy), there may be matchups they don't know.

 

[_Chrome]

I think the elephant in the room here is that if a character is able to compete at that high of a level in the right hands, can a character really be considered that bad in the first place? Obviously the character is capable enough to outperform many other very skilled players, and if it's considered "low tier", does the character's strength relative to other competitors even matter enough for rebalancing purposes when it can still be a contender?

If the line is really that blurry with several members of the cast, I feel like the actual difference in the character's viability is fairly negligible.

However, you have to consider certain outliers. Players such as Kage the Warrior and SAUS are able to use horrible characters in Melee and net results. As for tweaking and rebalancing a character, a lot of factors have to be considered in the first place, and a lot of it comes down to creating a well-designed character whose moves are appropriate for what their various strategies are and are supposed to be.

The PMDT has done a great job of it so far: the only thing they have left to do is tweaking and altering some of the obscurities amongst the best characters and fleshing out the worse-off characters. In PM, the difference in competitiveness amongst the cast is much smaller than that of the other Smash games.

I still don't think Ivysaur is top 20; perhaps not even top 30. That doesn't mean the character is completely unviable though. I'm going to avoided rambling on about MUs and counterpicks because everyone already knows all about that jazz.

 

[Saproling]

Bigger question: how DO you separate "good player of a bad character" from "good character?"

If I'm always thinking "okay the other player could have done XYZ" then I know it's the case, but at the same time that only catches the really obvious stuff and gets a lot of false positives ("I mean, technically you could've teched that stage spike buuuuuuuut...") and it also requires me to have a thorough understanding of counterplay in the matchup which I might not have as much of as I think I do.

This will never happen with an ever changing games thats simply the sad truth but it is good the DT gives it about 1 year each time to see how things go. But 1 year will never be anywhere near enough time to lock down the meta enough for characters to really be labeled completely unviable.Good players will always do well with bad characters and maybe thats a blessing in disguise for this games future.

 

[Jamble]

Well, I hear a lot about Sothe's Ivy and I guess my question is, how much Ivy experience does Sothe have, and how much of the character's development have we seen? What are Ivy's limitations that might affect just how he fares against the cast in general? I know people have doubts about certain characters, but my question usually revolves around the why.

I have watched a couple of the matches and I think a couple of things stood out to me in the midst of what was some really flashy, amazing Ivysaur play

-Ivy's recovery is incredibly predictable. Ivy relies on a tether recovery only, which through ledgehogging can be punished pretty hard. I noticed in one match where Sothe was playing against Wario, that the wario player seemed to get a good amount of mileage on that alone. He forced Sothe into that really slow hopping animation over the ledge and just nair'd (I think that's Wario's nair?) him for a clean stock at one point decently early in the game.

-Suffers from the issue of not having many options to deal with people directly under him who can threaten him. I noticed Sothe a lot of the time seemed to be forced to maneuver around grabbing the ledge a lot (it seemed like he did that from above it too, is that even a thing with Ivy?), which is never a situation you want to find yourself in I don't think.

I mean, Ivy has a lot of quick, well ranged aerials that Sothe made very heavy use of, and he often kept those razor leaf shots out to cover his approaches too. It felt like he did best when he was able to combine those quick, ranged attacks and his projectiles to avoid ever having to commit too hard. Even his use of up air which doesn't seem to have huge range was safe, since he'd keep moving and shorthopping it, which would pop him right back down after the short hop. My analysis here could be totally off, but he seems to have some good tools, not to say they necessarily match up with the best of the best, but it's generated enough excitement to at least catch people's attention which is cool.

What members of the cast could Sothe have been matched up against to help people better assess what Sothe's done with Ivy and where his meta falls overall?