Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

I would like to point out that in the little bit I watched, I saw Prof perfectly time a ledge grab so he was invincible and didn't have to give up ledge to a razor leaf sothe threw at the ledge. Prof didn't do anything with it, but once people do that more, Ivy's recovery sucks even more...

 

[Saproling]

If seen enough of both to know that sothe is more consistent but just not known I'm not saying he's waaay better but I do believe he is the top saur but if Mach can learn how to find these up airs like Sothe he could then take the lead. I certainly have no clue how he does it but then again I'm bad.

 

[Tomaster]

Since everyone is doing it

It is ordered within tiers.

 

[nimigoha]

Tier list I agree with most so far ever in this thread.

So between these 4 tier lists, a bunch of characters are placed wildly.

DDD: One list he's the worst, (or at least bottom 3, Chrome didn't say if he ordered tiers), another he's 26th.

Mario: 7th to 24th

ICs: 25th to 38th

I could go on.

Things that are pretty consistent:

No character is always bottom 3.

Fox, Wolf, Diddy, MK are top 4.

Mario, Marth, ZSS, Ike, and Toon Link are in the same tier.

But yeah.

No one knows anything about this game, ordering within B tier is kinda silly since we have no numerical data yet, some people overvalue Yoshi like wtf how does that character work.

 

[_Chrome]

Tier list I agree with most so far ever in this thread.











So between these 4 tier lists, a bunch of characters are placed wildly.

DDD: One list he's the worst, (or at least bottom 3, Chrome didn't say if he ordered tiers), another he's 26th.

Mario: 7th to 24th

ICs: 25th to 38th

I could go on.

Things that are pretty consistent:

No character is always bottom 3.

Fox, Wolf, Diddy, MK are top 4.

Mario, Marth, ZSS, Ike, and Toon Link are in the same tier.

But yeah.

No one knows anything about this game, ordering within B tier is kinda silly since we have no numerical data yet, some people overvalue Yoshi like wtf how does that character work.

Please don't compare mine with Tomaster's. Also that isn't even the most recent tier list I posted. I made some revisions to the one I made while drinking over 12 hours later. Here is the edited version from Paint Bazkip :

@Avro-Arrow had some fun with my tier list, lol. Me and Odds have similar placements of characters, especially in the top and bottom tiers. I disagree most notably with his placements of Falco, Sonic and ICs (I haven't seen much compelling evidence to show their strength). I also could see Ivysaur moving up one tier, tops: There's no way she's much better than Link is. I'm also not entirely sold on Snake being that great of a character (Prof is really frickin' good), but my opinion could be swayed.

 

[Nausicaa]

Charizard could win a big tournament.
He's a 3rd stage pokemon, that's a full tier higher than Ivy automatically.
Squirtle must be bad.
He's 2 stages DOWN from Zard.

Conclusion.

Buff Squirtle's Down Smash

 

[Tomaster]

Please don't compare mine with Tomaster's.

Thnx bro love you too <3

 

[nimigoha]

Please don't compare mine with Tomaster's. Also that isn't even the most recent tier list I posted. I made some revisions to the one I made while drinking over 12 hours later. Here is the edited version from Paint Bazkip :

View attachment 84311

@Avro-Arrow had some fun with my tier list, lol. Me and Odds have similar placements of characters, especially in the top and bottom tiers. I disagree most notably with his placements of Falco, Sonic and ICs (I haven't seen much compelling evidence to show their strength). I also could see Ivysaur moving up one tier, tops: There's no way she's much better than Link is. I'm also not entirely sold on Snake being that great of a character (Prof is really frickin' good), but my opinion could be swayed.

Sonic he placed 19th, you 23rd. Not really that different.

I'm not convinced that Falco is better than Lucario, Sheik, Falcon, or ROB.

Watch more Phresh. He plays their neutral quite well and has a great punish game.

I think Snake is very solid (kek) he just needs to work harder to get in in neutral. Not that he actually needs to get in outside of getting camped by spacies and similar characters (DACUS is pretty good though). He can kinda sit back and toss grenades and set up traps. He has a relatively good defensive game with grenades in shield and Cipher OOS. Legendary punish game and can kill at like 80 with an up throw on most characters (with C4 of course, which is placeable through shields and at low percents off Uthrow).

Despite Pro's hard work and great placings I don't see him on part with Fox or MK but I like Odds' placement of him.

Until we have years of matchup stuff and "hard data" (as hard as "I think it's 45:55" can be) I think we should accept that tier 2 and 3 (whatever you call them) could each have like 15 characters. As I've said before, I've seen arguments that "X character could be top 20" for like 32 of the characters lol.

 

[Bazkip]

Tier list maker sites are for casuals
Specific ordering is pointless

Brace yourself for the greatest tier list ever made

Can do things really well: Diddy Kong, Wofl, Fax, Meta Knight da bess, Robocop
Can do things: Wahrio, Muria, Lugee, Peach, Donkey Kong, Captain ****head, Falco McLasers, Shek, Freaky ****** Link, Mewtwo, Furries, Pikachu, Squirtman, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Lucas, We have plenty of results but I swear this character is bad, Mike, Martha, Ray, Game & Fraud, Snek, Sanic
Can sorta do things: Yoshi, Ice Climbers, Zelda, @Lank, Janon, Hungrybox, Ivysaur, Charizard, Pit, Ooze, Olimar
Can't really do things: Kirby, Boozer

I may have initially written this at 5AM

 

[Ripple]

I'm glad people are finally realizing that DDD's good MUs with the top 10 characters except for diddy and lucario don't make him a good character when he loses to basically everyone else.

I said that overall MUs are so much more important in this game rather than just doing well against top tiers

 

[nimigoha]

Paragon was sorta a wakeup call in that regard. When you have so many good players of diverse characters together in a bracket, how well you do may have nothing to do with your matchup with anyone in the top tier. Sure you may have a good matchup against Fox, Wolf, MK, and Sheik, but if you run into an Ivysaur and Lucario who you have bad matchups against you're in a tough spot (not trying to describe any particular character, just a general example).

It sparked a discussion on reformatting bracket away from double elimination which was pretty interesting.

 

[Xykness]

how do y'all Weegees feel about Sheik? Just curious.

Still a tough MU, but still more manageable than it was in Melee. Because of nado nerfs, one needle can pretty much end us. Probably 55-45 in Sheik's favor imo.

 

[Life]

Paragon was sorta a wakeup call in that regard. When you have so many good players of diverse characters together in a bracket, how well you do may have nothing to do with your matchup with anyone in the top tier. Sure you may have a good matchup against Fox, Wolf, MK, and Sheik, but if you run into an Ivysaur and Lucario who you have bad matchups against you're in a tough spot (not trying to describe any particular character, just a general example).

It sparked a discussion on reformatting bracket away from double elimination which was pretty interesting.

Are we talking some kind of pools-only tournament?

Say you have a 128 person tournament. Run pools of 8 (16 pools total) and top 2 get out -> 32 remaining players. On day 2, run pools of 8 again (4 pools total) where top 2 get out again and you're at top 8. Run one more pool of those players to determine top 8 standings.

If you have enough setups to run 4 pools concurrently, this is effectively 6 waves of pools.

Question is, how does this affect the viewers' experience? The players'? This would be hard to stream. Most importantly, does it actually solve the problem? Bracket luck still applies, but now it's a matter of hoping the top seeds in your pool aren't also your hardest character matchups.

This might not even be what you had in mind. I'm just spitballing here.

Yay context.

 

[_Chrome]

Snake is very solid (kek) indeed. I could see him moving to the top of my B tier or the bottom of my A tier for sure, with Sonic moving a spot behind Pikachu for sure.

Most of the characters B tier and below I'd be down with getting buffs and changes that would help the character. That includes Squirtle's dsmash of course.

Also Tomaster your list isn't that bad upon looking at it again. I can see the ideas and reasoning behind your placements with further analysis. Sorry for the callout bro. <3

 

[Ningildo]

Obligatory "Oli isn't bad" post.

Also, tier lists are opinions that stay opinions until tournament results back them up and only if those results aren't a outlier or a result of a lucky bracket. AKA need more data from multiple tournaments instead of jumping the gun every single major (gaw salt post paragon, anyone?) or when ripple does ripple things and gets top 8 with a pretty bad character.

Maybe post reasoning behind some of the more out of place placings on your list (to no one in particular)? Though it's probably "I feel this character is good/bad." in all likelihood rather then a thorough analysis of the character's neutral game, punishes and edgeguards and if said elements work well against perceived tops.

And regarding possible changes in how tourneys should be run, based on the fact that half (or more) of the cast has a ridiculously underdeveloped meta (*cough*Olimar*cough*), most MUs aren't certain and people can (and probably will) develop secondaries for bad MUs if the need arises after the MUs have been completely explored. So wait a bit and see, imo.

Also, when does Oli get grab armor/priority/whatever so someone can't poke on my shield with a long limb and get off scot free? When do Pikmin stop getting stuck in the ledge somehow when I'm ledgebouncing/dashing? Or stop midair due Fox lasers? Will people flip when they realize Oli's Uptilt has head intangibility for frames 1 through 10 (from start of the move till the last active hitbox frame) and find ways to use it in clever ways so I can copy it?

Idk. Let's talk more random tier lists that probably do nothing other then show your opinion (without the reasoning, ofc) and will change come next major.

Discussing findings that could advance the meta for certain characters seems better, though 9.9

 

[Tomaster]

So here's an interesting question, what character's level would you guys like the cast to be balanced to? For me it's honestly Diddy, not just because i don't want him nerfed, but I also believe that a game with weak characters is not as fun as a game with good ones. If everyone keeps getting nerfed we'll end up fighting with paper swords. It may be easier from a design standpoint to balance the game to a lower level, but I don't think that's the right way to go.

So back to the original question, what do you guys think?

 

[DrinkingFood]

I've beaten Sothe, so I basically won KotN
/@Oracle logic

 

[_Chrome]

I feel like balancing characters to Diddy's level may be a little bit too extreme. I feel like characters being balanced somewhere around my B or A tier would be nice overall. That doesn't necessarily mean that the current top tiers and A+ characters have to be changed though: so long as the other characters are buffed to at least around or a little bit less than Lucas' level the meta game should be really fun, interactive, and competitive. That's just my opinion though.

Characters that have good design should be left unchanged. For me, a character that has good movement and a fun kit (such as MK, Diddy, and ZSS) fall under this philosophy. In fact, they're also more easily made competitive. How dumb would the game be if characters like Ganon and Bowser, who inherently/by design have poor movement options/ability, were the dominant characters in a game meant to be fast paced and aggressive? That's why I'd like to see characters such as those be buffed up to around my B tier level at the most, with characters like Ness, Sonic, and Squirtle being buffed to around Lucas' level.

Honestly, I feel like in a fast-, offensively-oriented game the slow characters like Ganon and Bowser deserve to be at the bottom. I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings here, that's just my philosophy on how it should be. In fact, if those characters were buffed around my B tier level, then they would actually be really freakin' good.

'Nuff said.

 

[DMG]

I've beaten Sothe, so I basically won KotN
/@Oracle logic

No that's Inui logic

 

[Bazkip]

I feel like balancing characters to Diddy's level may be a little bit too extreme. I feel like characters being balanced somewhere around my B or A tier would be nice overall. That doesn't necessarily mean that the current top tiers and A+ characters have to be changed though: so long as the other characters are buffed to at least around or a little bit less than Lucas' level the meta game should be really fun, interactive, and competitive. That's just my opinion though.

Characters that have good design should be left unchanged. For me, a character that has good movement and and a fun kit (such as MK, Diddy, and ZSS) fall under this philosophy. In fact, they're also more easily made competitive. How dumb would the game be if characters like Ganon and Bowser, who inherently/by design have poor movement options/ability, were the dominant characters in a game meant to be fast paced and aggressive? That's why I'd like to see characters such as those be buffed up to around my B tier level at the most, with characters like Ness, Sonic, and Squirtle being buffed to around Lucas' level.

Honestly, I feel like in a fast-, offensively-oriented game the slow characters like Ganon and Bowser deserve to be at the bottom. I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings here, that's just my philosophy on how it should be. In fact, if those characters were buffed around my B tier level, then they would actually be really freakin' good.

'Nuff said.

I feel oppressed

 

[DrinkingFood]

No that's Inui logic

but inui logic is X beat Y, Y beat Z, so X is better than Z
Oracle logic is "Well I beat the guy who won the tourney, so I basically won"

 

[DMG]

It's just Inui logic taken to the extreme conclusion

 

[DrinkingFood]

It's just Inui logic taken to the extreme conclusion

I propose we give it a new name to celebrate its extremeness
all in favor, say "thread derailed"

 

[_Chrome]

Cap'n Buzzkill to the rescue:

"No."

The end.

 

[Deleted member]

lol I come from playing Melee and Smash 4 and loving how Zelda plays in Project M feeling like she's ultimate, then I look at all the tier lists and notice she's still kinda low. Wonder if she's always doomed to never be high tier?

 

[eideeiit]

@Kokonoe

DON'T ****ING LOOK AT PM TIER LISTS

pls. Tier lists eat dreams.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

the only place that looking at tierlists got me was playing ddd for a year to be a contrarian asshole

but then I realized luigi was more fun

 

[Beorn]

lol I come from playing Melee and Smash 4 and loving how Zelda plays in Project M feeling like she's ultimate, then I look at all the tier lists and notice she's still kinda low. Wonder if she's always doomed to never be high tier?

I know that feel my hylian friend. You gotta keep fighting.

I think that tier lists are actually starting to be pretty similar. There are a few characters here and there that get shifted around heavily from list to list, but we are starting to get a general consensus.

 

[nimigoha]

I know that feel my hylian friend. You gotta keep fighting.

I think that tier lists are actually starting to be pretty similar. There are a few characters here and there that get shifted around heavily from list to list, but we are starting to get a general consensus.

There's a general consensus for like the top 15-20 characters but the bottom half of the cast shifts pretty wildly from list to list.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's just Inui logic taken to the extreme conclusion

I beat oracle, therefore I should've gotten 2nd at Paragon.

Anyway, I'm interested to see that my CF placement hasn't even raised an eyebrow.

 

[Beorn]

Falcon is stupid good. I could easily see him where you placed him. I think other characters are more stupid personally, but hes pretty dumb. His main weakness of recovery has been buffed pretty well. That and he has always kinda just ****ed everyone below him in melee. Why should he be much different in this. Having nearly the same kit.

 

[Jamble]

Well, don't put everything into people's tier lists either. If Zelda plays and feels great, roll with it! And while tier lists may be similar, it's hard to say how much of it is in depth analysis of the entire cast, and how many might be somewhat of "me toos" when it comes to a handful of characters they might not know. I honestly think it's hard for one person to understand the entire cast in-depth enough without borrowing a decent bit from others, if that makes sense. And keep in mind that Melee has been out forever and the tier lists had developed for like a decade afterward.

Sometimes I worry in some cases that tier lists can sometimes feed on themselves as self-fulfilling prophecies. People see characters like Dedede and Bowser as low tier and decide it's not worth the effort, so they go for another high tier pick. The result can be low tiers have very, very little development on top of whatever issues might place themselves there in the first place.

So if you can kick ass with Zelda, do it. And push it to the limit. Even if Zelda has some shortcomings, it is a game after all. Not worth the time if you're not a character you love. Tiers are generally a good spread on a character's overall ability to adapt to the many nuances of the meta, but it's not something to take so seriously that it affects how you view a character you perform well with. /tangent

 

[nimigoha]

Falcon's conversions into Knee are disgusting, Knee is still disgusting when put on a character of that speed, Nair has active frames out the wazoo, and his recovery was buffed a bit. EZ gentleman too.

He probably still struggles a bit with the disadvantageous matchups he had in Melee but he can run train on loads of the cast.

Still gets comboed hard and his tech roll is dumb, but a very good character.

 

[Beorn]

Sometimes I worry in some cases that tier lists can sometimes feed on themselves as self-fulfilling prophecies. People see characters like Dedede and Bowser as low tier and decide it's not worth the effort, so they go for another high tier pick. The result can be low tiers have very, very little development on top of whatever issues might place themselves there in the first place.

I can see this to a point. Considering Project m is based on melee though more people just end up playing Melee characters with 14 years of development behind them. There is actually a good number of people that play supposed bad characters in project M and push them hard. Though I really do think it's just that you could pick your melee high/top tier main and do just as well with them in this game for the most part. So why pick a weird brawl character like Ivy or olimar? I see more of this that what you are speaking of. This would be less prevalent if the melee top/high tier characters did not also make up much of the Project M top and high tiers, giving people no incentive to branch out.

 

[Zoa]

Just managed to watch KOTN 4. Announcers were losing their **** minds at the end. Anyways based on Sothe's performance does this change perceptions of Ivy a bit?

 

[PlateProp]

Obligatory "Oli isn't bad" post.

Also, tier lists are opinions that stay opinions until tournament results back them up and only if those results aren't a outlier or a result of a lucky bracket. AKA need more data from multiple tournaments instead of jumping the gun every single major (gaw salt post paragon, anyone?) or when ripple does ripple things and gets top 8 with a pretty bad character.

Maybe post reasoning behind some of the more out of place placings on your list (to no one in particular)? Though it's probably "I feel this character is good/bad." in all likelihood rather then a thorough analysis of the character's neutral game, punishes and edgeguards and if said elements work well against perceived tops.

And regarding possible changes in how tourneys should be run, based on the fact that half (or more) of the cast has a ridiculously underdeveloped meta (*cough*Olimar*cough*), most MUs aren't certain and people can (and probably will) develop secondaries for bad MUs if the need arises after the MUs have been completely explored. So wait a bit and see, imo.

Also, when does Oli get grab armor/priority/whatever so someone can't poke on my shield with a long limb and get off scot free? When do Pikmin stop getting stuck in the ledge somehow when I'm ledgebouncing/dashing? Or stop midair due Fox lasers? Will people flip when they realize Oli's Uptilt has head intangibility for frames 1 through 10 (from start of the move till the last active hitbox frame) and find ways to use it in clever ways so I can copy it?

Idk. Let's talk more random tier lists that probably do nothing other then show your opinion (without the reasoning, ofc) and will change come next major.

Discussing findings that could advance the meta for certain characters seems better, though 9.9

Obligatory People had problems with GnW BEFORE paragon

Idk why everyone keeps trying to act like there wasn't complaints before, Paragon just showed it to a bigger audience. And if Dirtboy vs Marshall is any indicator pmdt needs to look at GnW's ledge snap box cause that **** is insane

Source: happens about 15:50

 

[Giygacoal]

Hey, I've been quite out of the metagame loop lately. What are the basic reasons Ike is that high on the lists? It's great to see that he is, but I'm asking because if he has particularly great MUs with the other high tier characters I wouldn't know.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Basically, Ike was good in 3.0 and remained the same in 3.5. Since most were nerfed, he was considered top 10 since. Now he is always in the talks for top 15.

 

[Sycko]

My brother had an argument with me that falco is better than wolf, and it made sense. He said falco had a better neutral because of the better lasers and shine, as well as an easier time approaching. Why is wolf considered better?

 

[Jamble]

I can see this to a point. Considering Project m is based on melee though more people just end up playing Melee characters with 14 years of development behind them. There is actually a good number of people that play supposed bad characters in project M and push them hard. Though I really do think it's just that you could pick your melee high/top tier main and do just as well with them in this game for the most part. So why pick a weird brawl character like Ivy or olimar? I see more of this that what you are speaking of. This would be less prevalent if they melee top/high tier characters did not also make up much of the Project M top and high tiers, giving people no incentive to branch out.

On further consideration, I think what you're saying is true as far as actual character representation to a point. I think Falco is one that is tiered generally high due to having a returning melee meta as you said, but he's also not considered as good in this game largely because of the new cast members. Representation of spacies and other melee vets is certainly largely helped by that factor too. We have some pretty consistently high tiered characters like ROB whose tiering has not really helped representation for a whole lot.

That being said, I do feel like there's a strong correlation between low tiering and low representation. As somebody still learning the meta and the game as a whole tier lists can muddy the waters as much as they provide insight. I see a character that is low tiered and it makes it hard for me to tell if the character is just underdeveloped, or well developed and truly lacking. Some players perform really well with low tier characters, but is it because they're just really good players, or they're tapping into potential largely unexplored by the community?

I'm beginning to talk in circles here, so I'm sorry about that. Might just demonstrate how confused a lot of the tierings have made me as a mere Padawan of Smash. Tiers are there to be informative about how a character can handle a given meta, but sometimes it just makes me feel a little more confused on the matter. Smash is a pretty deep game.