Tier List Speculation

[Searing_Sorrow]

Why is this page cluttered with random buff ideas for squirtle, kirby, and sonic. I am pretty sure there has been experiments on slightly improving kirby and bowser, but squirtle and sonic seem to be in a decent enough spot not to really warrant drastic overhaul or buff ideas.

Oh well, still more productive than random tier list speculations. Would be more interesting if there were ideas of giving some characters nonpolarizing moves that identify with the character in some of those post, but either way probably a bit off topic on the thread that just a month ago had g&w as a top 2 character in the game.

Seems like there are a few universal things to buff first, like frame 9 or 10 jabs, trashy item tosses on a few, and those random glitches. Example: ( A fox shine on diddy at 115 hit on the same frame as I sent out a fair, and I died at the top left side of ps2 with good d.I.) (generic instant auto throw breakouts without mashing) and those brawl glitches that carried over.

 

[GabPR]

Could anyone tell me what is the current most agreed upon tier list atm?

 

[FreeGamer]

Seems like there are a few universal things to buff first, like frame 9 or 10 jabs, trashy item tosses on a few, and those random glitches. Example: ( A fox shine on diddy at 115 hit on the same frame as I sent out a fair, and I died at the top left side of ps2 with good d.I.) (generic instant auto throw breakouts without mashing) and those brawl glitches that carried over.

What about bad roll/tech roll distances?

 

[G13_Flux]

Could anyone tell me what is the current most agreed upon tier list atm?

there really isnt one. generally, most agree that fox, wolf, MK, diddy are likely the tops. lucario, ROB, Shiek, Falco, GW, and ZSS are a few others that people would place high.

on the low end, you undoubtedly have bowser, and DDD. Obviously, there are some other characters that are considered to be undperpowered, but bowser and DDD are the most behind in the design process imo (i.e. there are big issues that really need to be addressed, and absolutely require changes/reworks/buffs etc.). Other underpowered characters have a pretty solid design base, but only need tweaks here and there to finish them out as a character, and they are more or less completely viable. for instance, characters like zelda, ness, and DK have typically been placed towards the bottom. however the gap between them and the high tiered characters isnt all that large, and as a result, those characters can still perform very well through having strong attributes and not too many glaring weaknesses. bowser and DDD both have some HUGE glaring weaknesses that represent an incomplete design relative to the rest of the cast. however, their design and ability is still far better than that of, say, a melee low tier.

as far as characters in the middle.. well theyre pretty commensurate with each other in power, and its hard to rank them. its very MU based at that point, as most mid high - mid low characters generally have at least a couple rougher MUs.

 

[Life]

So is the Tier List Maker web app everyone's using broken, or is it just me?

 

[Setton]

Buffing a character a lot and then nerfing them isn't the answer. Kirby could do fine with some decent buffs, no need for a "new sculpture."
Also like I said Squirtle isn't bad right now, but a tech roll buff and returning his old down smash isn't a lot.
I agree there are other things to fix too, but no one is saying you shouldn't do those too.

 

[FreeGamer]

Buffing a character a lot and then nerfing them isn't the answer. Kirby could do fine with some decent buffs, no need for a "new sculpture."
Also like I said Squirtle isn't bad right now, but a tech roll buff and returning his old down smash isn't a lot.
I agree there are other things to fix too, but no one is saying you shouldn't do those too.

Fair enough. As long as he ends up being viable for more than just a handful of counterpick MUs, I'd be content.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

then go make him viable

go out and win

 

[FreeGamer]

challenge accepted

 

[Setton]

I don't think Kirby is that bad. He's got a lot to work around right now, but he's viable for more than that. I don't think any characters have it quite that bad.
On another note, I notice many people do not consider Marth top tier, but I personally think he's far up there. He still has all his great stuff from melee and I don't really think he's gained many bad MUs. Roy still has a lot going for him too.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

marth has marthitis

and in this game of generally reliable kill options not being able to confirm anything until like 180 is a real problem

sure your mixup combo game can kill at 80 if you're lucky but if you're not then marth's keepaway game just becomes a war of attrition that he actually loses

 

[FreeGamer]

not to mention that in this more diverse cast, there are others who can fill his niche

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

despite this phrase often being applied to other characters, I think marth fills the jack of all trades master of none role extremely well

sure he has a great keepaway game, but there are other characters that are better at it

sure he can wall out people but does it in a relatively committal fashion and doesn't have as much range as some characters

sure tipper is good and can wreck you on bad di but there's like 20 other characters that can kill you just as well when you di poorly

sure marth's dashdance game is good but there's other characters that are better

marth has a lot of positive traits and a lot of close to even matchups, but nothing really extreme enough to make him a great character, he's just solidly good with one glaring weakness, his ability to kill past 100 percent

 

[Setton]

It's really not that hard to get kills. The potential to get his early kills with some mixups makes up for his issue of having problems killing late imo. He has great movement, range, gimps, throws, he has a lot going for him. While he does wall in a rather committing way, his general range is still good for the level of commitment his moves have. He has plenty of good MUs and not a whole lot of bad ones.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

marth is also a lot worse in this game because
a. playing on fd in a bo5 set is never guaranteed, you can keep marth away from fd as much as you want
b. more characters that aren't spacies

 

[Setton]

I'm well aware of that, but he's still a great character and he's still got solid MUs

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I'm not saying marth is a bad character, he's a good character, he's just not a oh-so-great one.
Marth will always be relevant in the metagame but his time for dominance is past, that was seven years ago. Also because marth is so fully explored, he's going to become less impactful as the age of each patch increases

Would I put marth in the top ten? yeah probably along with 20 other characters
would I put him in top five? no

 

[PlateProp]

marth has marthitis

and in this game of generally reliable kill options not being able to confirm anything until like 180 is a real problem

sure your mixup combo game can kill at 80 if you're lucky but if you're not then marth's keepaway game just becomes a war of attrition that he actually loses

Marth Syndrome isint real, people just dont kill early enough


Not saying Marth is top 5 though

 

[Life]

As someone who gets Marth Syndrome on practically every character I play, I think that particular "weakness" gets Marth a lot more flak than he deserves. Sure, Marth's not great at killing without a combo setup or hard read, but I watch PM Marths and then I watch Melee Marths and there is no comparison in terms of general level of play. (PM Marths, please hit the lab!)

Also note that "Marth on FD" is a great counterpick, but far from an auto-win at the top level of Melee.

In Marth's case, it's more of a lack of a strength rather than a true "weakness" as we were hair-splitting over earlier.

 

[Boiko]

Idk, I think Marth is top 10 in the game, personally.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Could anyone tell me what is the current most agreed upon tier list atm?

Every tier list is controversial to some degree, but this one was fairly well received in rough terms. Left = better

 

[G13_Flux]

Marth Syndrome isint real, people just dont kill early enough


Not saying Marth is top 5 though

marth syndrome definitely is real, moreso in PM than in melee. there are several characters in this game that are comparatively adept at surviving spikes (M2, DDD, Rob, zard, to name a couple), and that seriously tightens the window where marth can gain a neutral conversion on them, and confirm a kill. It might even make it impossible on some stages, especially with DDD on something like FoD, with a very low bottom and where he CAN recover from that distance below. outside of fishing for a rouge spike or tipper fsmash, marth has absolutely no move that converts into something that will alot him a kill. the closest thing he has is the not guaranteed side b > utilt at pretty high percents.

people generally use the term a bit more liberally, say on ZSS. the fact of the matter is that she actually has many, many moves that convert, and at most relevant percents. her moves are just comparatively weaker, and her main kill option from a combo (fair) has some relevant counterplay with SDIing the first hit, and is again, comparatively weaker than other characters fairs that can be comboed into (shiek, CF, ganon, mario, zard, etc.). using the term "marth syndrome" for her effectively represents her kill power, and reliance on clean edge guards or spacing moves, but isnt representative of the attributes that cause her to not have the best killing power in the game.

for marth, the lack of conversion options > a kill move within his tool kit is among the worst in the game (actually, probably THE worst), especially in the MUs i listed. This is effectively the true marth syndrome, and few other characters actually suffer from it in the same way.

now i still think marth is top 20, as he has a lot of really good attributes and MUs. i do still think roy is a tad better though due to the potency of his conversions and more varied kill power within his tool kit.

 

[MLGF]

Every tier list is controversial to some degree, but this one was fairly well received in rough terms. Left = better

That's a decent list, who made that?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I think its Odds'

 

[G13_Flux]

overall i agree with the tops and the very bottom. ive got a few bones to pick with certain things however. i personally think ike is way too far above the FE characters. in fact i still think roy should be ahead of him, most notably because of how well roy does against a lot of the upper tier, prevalent characters, and his worst MUs are pretty uncommon atm.

also ZSS is wayyyy too low. i would place her in the upper 5 of A tier.

i think id bump ivy up at least a tier as well.

like he said though, every tier list is going to be somewhat controversal. everyone seems to agree pretty unanimously on the tops and bottoms though, and many of the middle characters are a lot closer together than spacing between them probably suggests.

 

[PlateProp]

marth syndrome definitely is real, moreso in PM than in melee. there are several characters in this game that are comparatively adept at surviving spikes (M2, DDD, Rob, zard, to name a couple), and that seriously tightens the window where marth can gain a neutral conversion on them, and confirm a kill. It might even make it impossible on some stages, especially with DDD on something like FoD, with a very low bottom and where he CAN recover from that distance below. outside of fishing for a rouge spike or tipper fsmash, marth has absolutely no move that converts into something that will alot him a kill. the closest thing he has is the not guaranteed side b > utilt at pretty high percents.

people generally use the term a bit more liberally, say on ZSS. the fact of the matter is that she actually has many, many moves that convert, and at most relevant percents. her moves are just comparatively weaker, and her main kill option from a combo (fair) has some relevant counterplay with SDIing the first hit, and is again, comparatively weaker than other characters fairs that can be comboed into (shiek, CF, ganon, mario, zard, etc.). using the term "marth syndrome" for her effectively represents her kill power, and reliance on clean edge guards or spacing moves, but isnt representative of the attributes that cause her to not have the best killing power in the game.

for marth, the lack of conversion options > a kill move within his tool kit is among the worst in the game (actually, probably THE worst), especially in the MUs i listed. This is effectively the true marth syndrome, and few other characters actually suffer from it in the same way.

now i still think marth is top 20, as he has a lot of really good attributes and MUs. i do still think roy is a tad better though due to the potency of his conversions and more varied kill power within his tool kit.

someone missed the point kek

 

[nimigoha]

Obligatory "DK isn't that low" post by me, but decent list.

 

[FreeGamer]

G&W looks a little low to me.

 

[G13_Flux]

someone missed the point kek

if your post was meant to be taken with a bit more sarcasm then sorry. i tend to want to get very discussive and sometimes overlook it.

 

[migul]

2 noob questions:
1)Why is Diddy considered a top tier?
2)Why is D3 called the Ooze?

 

[_Chrome]

Falco, ZSS, DK and Luigi look too low to me for sure. Snake and Sonic look too high. Maybe Samus too high, ICs too high, Diddy too low. Oh, and Marth is definitely too low for me. That's just me though. Seems like a totally plausible suggestion by someone who could be on the panel for the tier list, whomever that may be.

 

[PlateProp]

2 noob questions:
1)Why is Diddy considered a top tier?
2)Why is D3 called the Ooze?

Probably because diddy is nigh unapproachable when he has banana in hand because of popgun > airdodge > glide toss

or maybe this guy just really likes junebug

 

[Life]

As for the list Odds posted: I think pretty much every character on that list is within 3-5 places of correct, except maybe Pit who despite my semi-frequent complaints isn't THAT bad. Too many tiers though, could probably stand to combine like the bottom three or so. Problem is that tier lists look unwieldy when there are not many tiers.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Life
Nah dude, Pit sucks. I think its in the perfect spot.

 

[Saproling]

How about make tethers actually work instead of just limp ******* at the ledge while you think "doesn't matter even if it worked I would have just got punished" if that's my natural response to that happening there are serious issues.

 

[G13_Flux]

How about make tethers actually work instead of just limp ******* at the ledge while you think "doesn't matter even if it worked I would have just got punished" if that's my natural response to that happening there are serious issues.

honestly i think the tethers are fine. when looking at tink, link, lucas, and samus, their tethers are extra recovery options (i.e supplemental), and being easy to punish is completely fine for that reason. anyways, their tethers are usually used in conjunction with an air dodge to avoid edge guards, or to avoid having to sweetspot with up bs due to an onstage edge guarder.

both ZSS and ivy however, have a lot of counterplay to a ledge hogging opponent.

ill start with ivy. shes a floaty character with two projectiles and disjointed aerials. she has cool mixups by alternating using dair or upsmash to stall or burst down, repespectively. fair can defend against an opponent that comes to edge guard her, and you can use a combination of side b and down b to threaten a ledge hogging opponent. just watch machiavellis gameplay and you will see how many times he forces the opponent to give up the ledge. the opponent may start to just drop down and attempt to re-grab the ledge (in an attempt to avoid the projectiles), but having a very quick tether reel in (about 6 frames after tethering the ledge) helps with snapping while they give it up.

with ZSS, she also has a slow moving projectile (charged neutral b) that she can use if shes coming from above and saves her jump which can force the opponent off the edge. its not as reliable as ivys, since shes not as floaty, and needs a jump to be able to snap afterwards if shes shooting at the ledge or below it. additionally, with her down b as bassically a 2nd mid air jump (that also opens her up to divekick), she has a lot of movmement tricks to bait and avoid edge guarding opponents. she can also potentially threaten ledge space with up air. This is aided a lot when there are walls that ZSS can use for additional movmement through wall jumping, and again, can more easily threaten ledge space with up air. all this can be used in conjunction with her very quick tether snap to attempt to grab the ledge. after tethering, if ZSS chooses to fade away, and if she by chance chose to save her down b, she can put the opponent in a position where they may have to give up the ledge through nature of having some additional attack options. she can flipstool an opponent who just chooses to sit on the ledge, or alternatively, she can use down b to wall jump (off nearly all stages, except for something like melee battlefield or lylat), and further attack ledge space with up air, or air dodge onstage.

not only this, but theres also micro spacings and timings involved with when the two of them decide to reel in that help minimize the quality of the punish the opponent can get, although this is dependent on the punish options open to the opponent in whatever specific MU is being played. also remember that things like CF and shieks fair can be teched on the other side of the stage after youre hit. better than just eating a stock through a ledge hog. one more thing, theres also edge cancelling the tether hop that provides some additional counter play.

overall, i think the tether characters actually have it pretty good in many MUs. just my personal opinion.

 

[Tomaster]

Why is Diddy considered a top tier?

In the words of brother June "Small fast character with projectiles"

 

[Jamwa]

why isn't ness top 10

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Seriously though. Fast characters with some of the best projectiles in the game irritate me. At least Diddy's peanuts dont cover the whole screen, land cancel, can be done twice in one short hop, etc...

 

[Saproling]

G13_Flux there's counterplay to that though characters with a tethers are balanced well and the projectiles have tons of startup I agree overall for most characters with them they are fine and if they buff ivy I don't want it in her recovery. But 2 stocks in a row on pools today mine just didn't work and the salt has currently consumed me over that