Tier List Speculation

[Setton]

Marth is great right now, he's got a ton going for him. Ivy is subpar right now, but Sheik is fine, she has some crouch cancel problems and her recovery isn't fun

 

[NyTR0]

All those "options" that sonic has to recover are all easy to edgeguard as well. It's super easy to edgeguard sonic. Even if you spinshot lets say, its still not gonna do much when you just get hit right back out again. There are other characters with much better recoveries if we're gonna talk about "good recoveries". If there was a recovery tier list I'd put Sonic around mid or high mid. Sure, he goes the distance but none of it matters if you just get easy bake edguarded all the time. People give Sonic way too much credit for his recovery but it's really not all that.

 

[PlateProp]

Shiek is stupid. I can counter pick her against her great matchups. I don't even practice with her (I did play her a bit back when I played melee though) and I can simply crush peoples souls. Shiek is so good, and bodies so many characters so hard. Her only weakpoint is her only option vs CC is grab, but with smart play you can get around that easy.

For example, earlier this week, I was playing vs a Gannon and not really feeling my MK, so I just went Shiek, who I probably haven't touched in over 2 weeks, I 3-0ed his ***. The last game the poor guy stopped cussing out Shiek long enough to pick Pit. Then I platform and needle camped him on Delfinos for 6 minutes. (Yes, I'm an *******)

GANNON-BANNED

sheik is really stupid at mid level play and below, probably top tier by herself. once you hit top level play she evens out considerably. shes probably high tier atm (which is perfect imo)

remember when shiek was unplayable?

 

[DrinkingFood]

"Guys my character is easy to edgeguard/combo/beat in neutral, you just have to know the matchup!"
every player ever, but especially the mediocre ones

 

[GabPR]

All those "options" that sonic has to recover are all easy to edgeguard as well. It's super easy to edgeguard sonic. Even if you spinshot lets say, its still not gonna do much when you just get hit right back out again. There are other characters with much better recoveries if we're gonna talk about "good recoveries". If there was a recovery tier list I'd put Sonic around mid or high mid. Sure, he goes the distance but none of it matters if you just get easy bake edguarded all the time. People give Sonic way too much credit for his recovery but it's really not all that.

Im going to put an example on this: Captain Falcon has a weak recovery, captain falcon is linear and has just few options to get back on stage, down b, side b and up b (if you count wall jump thats 4) And Even with such a small window of options, creative players can find ways to get back at least half the time against competent esgeguarders because they mix those really few options that they have.

Enter Sonic, he has more than 3 to four times the number of options Cap has and he can use all of them together too!.

In your example, if you use spin shot you can use any b move and even an air dodge to get past your attacker. The only thing that doest make Sonics recovery op is his lack of stalling moves like the Infinite homing attacks he had in the past, but thats been taling care off. (I do agree he does not have the best recovery, but saying that its easy to edge guard I find it to be quite exagerating.)

 

[Life]

Sonic is one of those recoveries where you have a ton of options as long as you DI high enough. See also every single other recovery in the game.

As soon as Sonic is sent far and low enough to be forced to use Spring, that's when it gets dramatically worse, just like every other character that relies heavily on non-upB special moves to make it to the ledge consistently (e.g. Falco, whose recovery isn't that bad as long as he can mix up between stage sideB, ledge sideB, and upB, but as soon as he's below the ledge he's a free edgeguard unless he still has double jump).

 

[Star ☆]

I also personally believe that, overall, Sonic has one of the most flexible recoveries in the game; I talk about the plethora of options you have when offstage in my guide.

However, you don't always have that luxury, as Life just mentioned above me, Sonic loses half of these options when perpendicular or below the stage as he is usually forced to Spring in these situations. You are very limited in your ways to mix up spring; variable heights and rising hitboxes can only get you so far against opponents at the ledge ready to hit you/quickly grab ledge.

Like I said, I only personally believe that this is only a problem due to how frequently Sonic ends up offstage as a result of misspacing a move onstage due to poor hitboxes and/or trading, this also ties in with misspacing grabs on characters that have low recovery time on their moves or lingering hiboxes such as Zelda, Peach and GnW. His light weight usually guarantees that he will be left in a very disadvantageous position afterwards.

His hitbox problem is also illustrated in his edgeguarding ability to some extent, as @shairn pointed out, a lot of Sonic's edgeguarding techniques, or ones that stuff people edgeguarding him, lose to large hitboxes on frequent occasions. For the most part, I'm talking about F-Tilt, which trades with recovery moves at the ledge very frequently.

Overall, I do not think this is an absolutely crippling problem with Sonic as he obviously has a tonne of strengths to make up for this problem, I think it's really the only thing holding him back from being a more popular/better character as the general lack of Sonic players and/or people thinking that Sonic is only mid/mid-low tier seems to be due to his poor survivability and how often he loses onstage interactions; maining Sonic requires a high level of matchup experience as you must know the hitboxes/cooldown of moves to punish accordingly lest you lose to the hitbox and end up offstage.

 

[GabPR]

I also personally believe that, overall, Sonic has one of the most flexible recoveries in the game; I talk about the plethora of options you have when offstage in my guide.

However, you don't always have that luxury, as Life just mentioned above me, Sonic loses half of these options when perpendicular or below the stage as he is usually forced to Spring in these situations. You are very limited in your ways to mix up spring; variable heights and rising hitboxes can only get you so far against opponents at the ledge ready to hit you/quickly grab ledge.

Like I said, I only personally believe that this is only a problem due to how frequently Sonic ends up offstage as a result of misspacing a move onstage due to poor hitboxes and/or trading, this also ties in with misspacing grabs on characters that have low recovery time on their moves or lingering hiboxes such as Zelda, Peach and GnW. His light weight usually guarantees that he will be left in a very disadvantageous position afterwards.

His hitbox problem is also illustrated in his edgeguarding ability to some extent, as @shairn pointed out, a lot of Sonic's edgeguarding techniques, or ones that stuff people edgeguarding him, lose to large hitboxes on frequent occasions. For the most part, I'm talking about F-Tilt, which trades with recovery moves at the ledge very frequently.

Overall, I do not think this is an absolutely crippling problem with Sonic as he obviously has a tonne of strengths to make up for this problem, I think it's really the only thing holding him back from being a more popular/better character as the general lack of Sonic players and/or people thinking that Sonic is only mid/mid-low tier seems to be due to his poor survivability and how often he loses onstage interactions; maining Sonic requires a high level of matchup experience as you must know the hitboxes/cooldown of moves to punish accordingly lest you lose to the hitbox and end up offstage.

Thats is true, when sonic is forced low into the stage he will have to limit his options like evero other character in the game and most probably need to do spring to get back. Although at the maximum distance Sonic can reach the stage is really far and most characters have no chance of getting back from there, which is something to put for consideration.

Ill need to hear a better example on Sonic's edgeguarding, I personally believe his edgeguard techniques is one of the best in the game and is simply beast.

I agree completely with you in that Sonic requieres plenty of matchup knowledge in order to do well with him, as well as a ton of practice with the character itself. That makes him a really hard to use character at top level play (if the opponent knows the matchup). This is especially true against characters with lingering high priority hitboxes like peach (as you mentioned).

 

[Jamwa]

Boiko i've already addressed everything you said. i feel like im repeating myself
nair isnt punishable except in the spacies mu or against a character with a fast move (<2 frame startup).
the point of ccing nair is so that you can interrupt lucas before the last hit with said fast move, or just shield before the last hit/landing hit.
and you have to look at this holistically.... im trying to say that too many of lucas' options are dealt with overlapping DI/SDI...one thing like ASDI down dair (if you're airborne) to shield before usmash is fine. its just that its easy to adapt and prepare your combo DI for most of lucas' combo game.

DDD's "help I'm almost getting knocked over" animation makes it so I don't even have to SDI hits. pretty great.

i've already said that its only against specific characters. especially not ddd ._.

why am i even here lmao, i doubt anything i've said is being taken into consideration.
PlateProp you did this. you knew this would happen. no hope

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Note also I didn't say he had the best recovery in the game right now, I said he'd have the best if spring was buffed (which is still a little hasty of a claim/exaggerated)

And damn, I go to get some bagged milk at the grocery store and now I have nothing to say about Sonic's recovery off the top of my head (that and I'm drinking now anyways). But it's cool because my boys Gab and Star probably said it better than I would have anyways.

Glad I'm not alone in thinking Sonic has to put in a lot of work to get results. I stray away from using Sonic when I'm

1) Not on point

2) Afraid I don't know a MU and I'll run into hitboxes/miss punishes/space incorrectly

3) Really feeling it with someone else. Lol.

I think Sonic's edge guarding is only beast in the right circumstances, and that there's too much to it for me to write about right now. I also think my edge guarding as Sonic needs work and that I can go a lot deeper, so take that with a grain of salt. And if we're going to be talking about Sonic's recovery, it's worth noting that any Sonic who's good will DI high (helped by his floatiness) if they know the match up because they know what moves the opponent's going to use to stuff them/finish comboes.

 

[pegthaniel]

That was simply a mispaced magnet.

That one maybe, I did make them as close as possible while both grounded but I suppose that isn't quite close enough. You can still SDI out before the launching hit even if they start nearly overlapping (as close as can be, this time with Bowser's back to Lucas). For example https://imgur.com/a/rGN9N

 

[Boiko]

Boiko i've already addressed everything you said. i feel like im repeating myself
nair isnt punishable except in the spacies mu or against a character with a fast move (<2 frame startup).
the point of ccing nair is so that you can interrupt lucas before the last hit with said fast move, or just shield before the last hit/landing hit.
and you have to look at this holistically.... im trying to say that too many of lucas' options are dealt with overlapping DI/SDI...one thing like ASDI down dair (if you're airborne) to shield before usmash is fine. its just that its easy to adapt and prepare your combo DI for most of lucas' combo game.

i've already said that its only against specific characters. especially not ddd ._.

why am i even here lmao, i doubt anything i've said is being taken into consideration.
PlateProp you did this. you knew this would happen. no hope

Pretty sure you need one frame start up to punish his nair, but whatever.

I get the point you're making, but plenty of characters suffer from the same weaknesses. Lucas has plenty of options to deal with this. I SDI almost everything whenever possible, and I still get caught by a lot of Lucas combos. Staying consistent with your SDI mid combo is a lot more difficult than you're making it out to be. Especially since Lucas can presumably react to your SDI and cover another option considering his generally reasonable attributes.

How would you even go about circumventing this without redesigning the character?

 

[Jamwa]

How would you even go about circumventing this without redesigning the character?

thats really hard to answer. any redesign causes a bunch of implications in every matchup. i dont want changes right now, i really want pm to stay the same for a bit so the meta can develop tbh.
if i had to, i'd probably attach an 0.8x sdi multiplier on dair/nair or something, to see how it goes for a little while, and make adjustments from there. this is a quick thought though. there's a probably a bunch of different methods that could solve this issue while isolating the redesign from effecting other things.

i focus a lot of my game on SDI, and i find it really easy to escape lucas'. this discussion boils down to opinion right now, so there's no point in arguing anything anymore. i cant validate anything i say because i cant prove im not a "mediocre" player or anything, and you're known to be one of the best nesses, so ill submit and say:
either the meta will develop, and more players will abuse this mechanic against lucas to make his combo game more difficult, or players will not.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Jamwa

On cc'ing nair, are you suggesting they sdi away from nair and then asdi into the ground (aka "fake cc"). You can't just hold down vs lucas nair and fake cc. The hits are too fast (just like the magnet example) to land and get a shield up before the next hit. You can cc the landing hit/final hit for a decent amount though, doesn't start knocking down mario till the 40% range.

As for Lucas' response to crouch cancel (true or fake) for all the moves you listed: Magnet is probably Lucas' safest move vs cc. The only thing that could work is sdi to avoid the launching hit and then cc/wait a touch and then smack lucas. Don't know how reasonable that is, but that is the best they can do. Nair, against most characters, should be decent anyways because an immediate dtilt can interrupt most cc responses (there is a 5 frame gap if perfect). So 1 frame things will beat it, but most characters don't have those. Dtilt on shield is pretty decent, so if they just hold shield it is a guessing game. Up air vs cc is a bad look, but the hope would be that you got them in the air with a magnet, then up air is great. Dair was already discussed, grounded opponents try to sdi out of the move, no hope of cc unless they were airborne. I don't know the uses for jab, I think dtilt is better most of the time (the outer hit, the inner hit is uesless, plz buff). PK Freeze has spacing on its side, but it prevents followups which can be annoying.

All in all, getting that magnet seems important as most cc attempts are out of neutral. Chasing sdi with dair, option selects of magnet if they choose to asdi down and tech vs comboing off the launch, and chasing sdi during combos is the only things that particularly stick out. Sorry for "no mercy" again, but I think it needs to be said. I can't comment much on sdi during combos because I don't have the experience to do so. I can break down crouch cancel stuff though, since a touch of theory is all you need.

Boiko

Can you explain this quote specifically?

"Now, correct me if I'm mistaken, but Lucas' nair has a landing hitbox, which means it should always hit a CCing opponent on the latest possible frame. When l-canceled, it has 8 frames of lag, even at 0%, it should have roughly 16~ frames of hit stun, depending on the character. Which means you can have something like an 8 frame advantage (maybe minus one because of hit lag) on hit, which is more than enough time to start your magnet which has a launching hit with 80 BKB that should start breaking CC early."

They can asdi down the landing hit/final hit of nair and shield before magnet comes out. Till near 50% on Mario according to the frame data thread.

Anyways, since the topic is Lucas, tell me, oh tier list speculaters, what you think of this touch of theory on the Lucas vs Fox MU. It is often said to be one of Lucas' tougher MU's (I am told it is mostly melee top tiers that give him trouble). Last time I spoke on Lucas, I said his biggest struggle is not having a reliable vertical launcher. After thinking about it, I came up with this solution to a low percent Fox. Grabs are a bit too risky to rely on, up tilts are too spacing dependent, and Dash Attack doesn't safely launch until around 40% iirc (you can asdi down and tech, then punish Lucas in endlag). The solution? Magnet. Sure it can be asdi down and tech'd at any percent basically, but the option coverage is as follows. Magnet into immediate djc up air. If they don't cc tech, they get immediately hit by an up air (like shine bair for falco) and you have enough frames to follow with more djc up airs and up tilts. If they do cc tech, up air might hit miss tech, and you are out of lag to reaction tech chase fox with magnets and dairs. This is all to try and get them to percents where DA's and other moves can knock them up high enough to strictly do aerials to combo. The only problems I see with it are the aforementioned sdi out of magnet (though that can be mitigated through spacing) and the l cancel timing being different depending on if they tech (no hitlag). Without a prediction, is it possible to l cancel both situations simultaneously? I don't think you can tell in time like you usually do.

 

[Motobug]

On the subject of Sonic buffs, I personally think he's fine as is. As much as I would like a weight buff it's not really necessary and it balances out his large combo ability on most of the cast.

I'd say that his recovery is only slightly above average; while you can mix it up, it can be very predictable in some situations when you are essentially forced to use a certain move (spring far below the stage, spinshot far away from it). I think it is fine as it is; we don't want a game like Smash 4 when recovery is essentially free if you're not Falcon or Little Mac.

Disjoints, however, are one area where Sonic could use a very minuscule buff, at least on one move. I don't think any other character is as negatively disjointed as Sonic, at least with their main tools. A move, such as F-tilt for example, getting a significant disjoint would help Sonic's somewhat lackluster neutral game. It'd give an option other than DD for playing on the safe side, and it'd make both players happier (I know how much people hate Sonic's DD game ).

 

[_Chrome]

I don't think Sonic has a lackluster neutral game. Just because he has no projectile and somewhat unfavourable hitboxes doesn't mean his incredible movement options and varying speeds don't outweigh these factors to give him at least an average neutral game. I will agree that his ftilt could use a buff though. His ftilt would actually increase his DD game by incorporating it with perfect pivots.

Also Sonic should get a better usmash. His utilt is good but it can't be used out a run so what's the point of it really (besides its primary purpose of salt induction and stylin')?

 

[FreeGamer]

How good of a U-Smash are we talking? I would hate to see his Smash 4 U-Smash in this game.

 

[Player -0]

TheGravyTrain I think most/all Lucas players know Mag (shine) is savior. On spacies you can kinda derp their face and make it impossible to tech so that works too. Just more really technical/spacing stuff for Lucas, the struggle. Basically mag -> WD or DJC aerial -> dash dance (not really a dash dance, just spacing dash) -> dash attack -> DJC aerial, SH aerial, or Up Tilt (and inevitably get the sourspot that sends like, forward iirc). Above stuff is my main go to but need to play against people more so aueghuhgeuhgehbhbtuh

Like if Lucas' sweetspot for Up Tilt was like, knee/thigh to its current place or it was reworked that would be amazing.


Sonic's edgeguard is pretty amazing. If opponents go high and get onstage at low percents (with decent land lag) you meteor them off ground with Dair/Fair -> things. You can meet people offstage and trade with their recovery and make it back 99% of the time. At higher percents you Nair/Up Air before they hit the ground or Dair meteor -> Bair/Nair/Up air if they do. Sonic's speed makes this all possible. Just don't trade unintentionally or you probably just lost your edgeguard LOL.


I don't think anyone is saying Sonic's neutral is bad. Side B is amazing vs. CC (note that my tests before on if moves like Peach's D-Smash might not be 100% perfect if you powershield last hit of Side B [before the JC Grab/WD/etc] then do the move. Most cases prob though). etc etc you've heard it.

Up Tilt be anti air/convert ground poke into air wobble. F-Tilt is pretty good right now, the trading effect is a huge pain when edgeguarding.

Sonic's Up Smash still gatling combos, there are typically just better options. You can DACUS floaties for the kek kills.


best explaining 2012.

Edit - idk. I think Sonic is a character that's on the fine side of fixing characters, just needs a few adjustments. Hopefully he's not nerfed next patch LOL.

 

[Frost | Odds]

"Guys my character is easy to edgeguard/combo/beat in neutral, you just have to know the matchup!"
ever player ever, but especially the mediocre ones

Idk, my character is pretty tough to edgeguard/combo/beat in 2v1 situations :^)

 

[ShadowKing]

Mario has one of the best combo games in PM and a decent Edge guard.Same with sonic but has a better recovery then Mario but sonics recovery can be beaten by Mario's cape same with Falco,Fox,Ganon,Falcon,Link,Toon Link,Luigi,Lucas,Ness,Bowser,Donkey Kong,Diddy Kong.etc.But the only time u use marios cape is when sonic uses his spring but that's rarely because he has so many recovery options oh and Marth and Roys recovery can be beaten by Mario's cape

 

[redbeanjelly]

Just for discussion's sake I'd like to make a claim: Game and Watch's crouch cancel is more privileged than most because he ignores a drawback of it. I mean it goes without saying that his downtilt is godly anyway. But because of bucket-braking, and also just how good his recovery distance is in general, even if you catch him offstage from the bad DI he probably will make it back just fine (at least at non-kill percents). So one of the fundamental risks of crouch cancelling is one that G&W can just not worry about. Just a thought, sorry if it's beating a dead horse.

 

[Jamble]

Personally, while I don't know G&W well enough to say otherwise, I disagree at least with the premise of that. If you'll notice on characters with great CC games, it's not really about whatever drawbacks of the CC they can negate, but what they actually get out of CCing. Samus has a stellar CC in general, but what truly makes it useful is that she can do things like CC > Dsmash or Dtilt > Some form of followup. Roy has a great CC game because of his dtilt following into one of his stupid number of combos. Quite frankly, I'm not going to take a hit on the chin if I can't get something out of it, if that makes sense.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So I'm watching Tipped Off 11 and it's pretty awesome, these matches are all really high octane.

But one thing begs a question: Why is the Ganondorf-Samus MU like 80-20 in Ganon's favor

How did that happen

I was not prepared

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm pretty sure that's the Junebug-ESAM matchup, sir.

 

[Boiko]

Samus has always had a problem with Ganon. Nothing unwinnable or anything, but definitely challenging.

Personally, while I don't know G&W well enough to say otherwise, I disagree at least with the premise of that. If you'll notice on characters with great CC games, it's not really about whatever drawbacks of the CC they can negate, but what they actually get out of CCing. Samus has a stellar CC in general, but what truly makes it useful is that she can do things like CC > Dsmash or Dtilt > Some form of followup. Roy has a great CC game because of his dtilt following into one of his stupid number of combos. Quite frankly, I'm not going to take a hit on the chin if I can't get something out of it, if that makes sense.

When you're crouch cancelling, you're simultaneously DIing down. If you're hit with a hard attack, you'll be sent at a pretty bad angle. G&W negates this with bucket braking, so he doesn't suffer a more common drawback of crouch cancelling. That's what redbeanjelly is getting at.

 

[redbeanjelly]

Personally, while I don't know G&W well enough to say otherwise, I disagree at least with the premise of that. If you'll notice on characters with great CC games, it's not really about whatever drawbacks of the CC they can negate, but what they actually get out of CCing. Samus has a stellar CC in general, but what truly makes it useful is that she can do things like CC > Dsmash or Dtilt > Some form of followup. Roy has a great CC game because of his dtilt following into one of his stupid number of combos. Quite frankly, I'm not going to take a hit on the chin if I can't get something out of it, if that makes sense.

I see what you're saying. I wondered how I wanted to phrase my argument, and I went with the word "privileged" deliberately. Maybe not necessarily better or worse than other characters, but just the fact that it ignores a rule in a certain sense. If heavier characters can crouch cancel for longer and be okay in terms of survivability (i.e. reducing the knockback for longer and having more resistance to horizontal launching in general), then light characters should be flawed in those aspects as a contrast. But G&W is light as **** with the longevity of a heavy character due to his recovery options. And downtilt is still godly.

 

[FreeGamer]

As this thread's resident Kirby main, I feel like bringing him up again. Unless your name is Tetraflora, chances are you find maining him to be a struggle. I'm sure most of you are aware of how lackluster he is in reality despite sounding perfectly fine in theory.

Here's a wishlist of buffs/tweaks to spark some discussion, and maybe get the DT interested in experimenting with some/most of it:

Spoiler: kirby stuffz (anything not mentioned is fine as of 3.6)

attributes:
- max air velocity 1.0 -> 1.1
- air traction .04 -> .09
- weight 74 -> 80
- run speed 1.5 -> 1.6
- all jumps sped up by 1/3 (takes 2/3 of the time to reach same height)

normals:
- u-tilt has 3.02 frame data, range, and BKB to give his punish game some much-needed help, but keeps 3.5 KBG (maybe a little more if you want to be conservative) to prevent it from trapping fastfallers forever
- d-smash startup 8 -> 6
- u-smash sweetspot has highest hitbox priority, covers the entire area directly in front of him for the first 3 frames
- dash attack now a single strong pop-up hit, has about 1/3 less distance

aerials:
- u-air strong hit KBG and angle matched to melee... if jank like knee/shine/ganon d-throw can be grandfathered in, why not?
- d-air has a weak landing hit, allowing for more followups

specials:
- cutter dash being used in the air will not consume airdodge if kirby has more than 3 jumps left, will count as using up 3 jumps
- cutter dash's swing at the end of the animation has an actual hitbox, acts as a juggle tool and deals 5%
- cutter dash's dashing hit combos into the swing, improving kirby's ability to chase people
- inhale's star shot can no longer be mashed out of, sends at sakurai angle rather than straight up
- inhale has significant cooldown (30-40 frames?) if ended in the air without a victim
- copying deals 12% damage, star state can no longer be mashed out of

throws:
- u-throw deals 12% damage, has enough KBG to kill mario at 170 without DI on FD
- f-throw angle raised to put opponents within followup range, damage raised from 4% to 6%

taunts:
- u-taunt allows kirby to move left or right more, sharing his dance with the world
- f-taunt has very weak windboxes while kirby spins

You might disagree with this. It could very well make him OP. Maybe you're one of those people who doesn't want non-Melee-top-tiers to be good. However, I guarantee you that this design would be a much better starting point to work from than the convoluted mess he's been in 3.0-3.6.

 

[Mowg]

Yeah it's more of a way of discussing/thinking about the game rather than any big revelation about how it works. Usually when I see people "complain" about something in game, like a character, the first things I see are "Does character[x] even have any weaknesses???" and I feel, for project m, the answer is usually no. And that's usually fine- it doesn't really say much about a character. What's important are the strengths they lack, it'll tell you for example what zones of neutral are safest to occupy against the opponent, whether you should DI for survival even if it means eating a bigger combo vs DIing away from the combo even if it means going further offstage, etc. Something's only a weakness if the character can't work around it- a weakness is something you can abuse. But most characters in PM have ways to avoid needing to scenarios where they would need strengths they lack, and if they can do that, it's not a weakness, it's just the character's design. ROB's shield for example is small and his OoS options are bad, but he has excellent CC options, a very threatening grab out of DD, and the ability to briefly avoid interaction by boosting around, plus gyro makes shield options a non-issue, on top of his DJC-like boost aerials encouraging opponents to attack him where he is rather than overshooting his DD- all those strengths make his weak shield and shield options mostly avoidable. Wario may have a slowish ground speed and not very impressive reach on the ground outside of DACUS, but when he can just jump away from almost anything and come back in in-time for a punish, he doesn't have to worry too much about being committed to grounded positioning. Characters should be defined by their strengths and designed to have no glaring weaknesses. You make more interesting characters if you ask players to work around the opponent's character's strengths rather than abusing their weaknesses.

What about Ness?

 

[Farquaad]

As this thread's resident Squirtle main, I feel like bringing him up again. Unless your name is Dirtboy, chances are you find maining him to be a struggle. I'm sure most of you are aware of how lackluster he is in reality despite sounding perfectly fine in theory.

Here's a wishlist of buffs/tweaks to spark some discussion, and maybe get the DT interested in experimenting with some/most of it:

Spoiler: squirtman stuffz (anything not mentioned is fine as of 3.6)

attributes:
- air traction .08 -> .28
- weight 82 -> 90
- run speed 1.45 -> 2.2
- size = a lil bigger so people stop ******** about him being a dumb slippery tiny turtle

normals:
- u-tilt has 3.5 disjoint and retains frame data
- d-smash frame data changed:
damage: 13% (tips), 11% (insides)
BKB: 40 (tips), 35 (insides)
KBG: 86 (tips), 87 (insides)
angle: 140° (each side sends inwards)
start: 3
hitbox: 5-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23, ends frame 46
- fsmash damage first hitbox increased to 17%, late hitbox to 12%
- dash attack now has 2% chance to trip Squirtle since he's a dumb slippery now-less-tiny turtle

aerials:
- fair damage increased to 15% early hit, keep weak late hit, BKB: 45
- nair has a 2% chance to result in Squirtle tripping from spinning around so much since he's a dumb slippery not quite reasonable sized turtle

specials:
- side special changed to match 3.02, with only one turnaround allowed... if jank like knee/shine/ganon d-throw can be grandfathered in, why not?
- up special SDI multiplier reduced to 0.5
- water gun hitboxes are now transcendent
- bubble can be powershielded, causing Squirtle to trip since he's a dumb slippery still kinda tiny turtle

throws:
- u-throw deals 4% damage, BKB: 60, KBG: 130, weight dependant
- b-throw is now a suplex, no change except in animation
- d-throw has a 4 frame window after damage dealt to input Squirtle's up taunt, which triggers a front flip instead of a back flip, which then has the standard subsequent 4 frame window allowing Squirtle to put on his shades because he's a dumb slippery rather stylish turtle

taunts:
- see above with regards to d-throw
- squirtle squirt

You might disagree with this. It could very well make him OP. Maybe you're one of those people who doesn't want non-Melee-top-tiers to be good. However, I guarantee you that this design would be a much better starting point to work from than the convoluted mess he's been in 3.0-3.6.

kappa​

 

[Setton]

Lol Farquaad
Yeah Kirby doesn't need nearly that many buffs. Those attributes listed alone were huge. Kirby is lacking for sure but he's not terrible, some buffs here and there sure, but all of that would be crazy.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

i propose that Luigi's side b should cancel into other moves, ike QD style.

 

[Warzenschwein]

fox's lasers comboing into uair how about that

 

[TheGravyTrain]

On a more serious note, here are a few things I and many other Squirtle mains would love looked at. I expect none of these, and certainly don't hope for all at once, but these are the most common complaints/requests:

Tech rolls
They are terrible. Check out Ripple's analysis of tech rolls. You will find Squirtle in the bottom 3. Mewtwo's redeeming factor is the distance it travels. In a reaction tech chase situation, vulnerable points don't matter. Mewtwo remains ambiguous and goes far enough to make it difficult. Vulnerable points matter for option coverage situations, of which they all suck at (the other being Falcon). Squirtle can mitigate the issue on moves that have enough horizontal vector like Fox shine. He can no tech roll towards the ledge. With the threat of a great ledge dash, he can usually get off scott free. But moves like Wario Down throw and Wario down smash don't let this happen, leaving you with a terrible tech roll and to be reaction tech chased to death. Plz fix

Dtilt
The linking hit can be cc'd at any percent on any character, meaning you can always shield the second hit. There are a couple of different solutions to this. You can make the linking hit have a 0 degree angle, you can bring the hits closer together (within 4 frames), you could even make it single hit. I am biased towards the 0 degree angle.

Down Smash
There was a lot of controversy over this move going into 3.6F. It was given a similar kb curve to R.O.B., Pikachu, and others' down smashes. The problem is Squirtle's is nothing like theirs, as his comes out frame 16 (which is way to slow for a get off me move, which is what Pikachu and co's are used for). Simply reverting it to what it was would be fine for most Squirtle's. It isn't useless though, so if it doesn't get changed it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Up Smash
Maybe a touch quicker so f throw rhus isn't soooooooo hard? I can dream, right?

Fair
Maybe a touch more bkb? Squirtle is a bit anemic at low percents, this is not crucial at all though, just a thought. It is pretty low range. It would make the off stage game a touch easier at low percents because it makes the move more positive on hit, allowing you to reach the ledge in a safer fashion.

Water Gun (neutral b)
There isn't too much to say about this move, I just don't like the wind boxes on the end. You can do a needle grab type setup with it, for dtilt and for grab, but it is so low in range it isn't worth it. The only use I use this move for is canceling out clangable projectiles like Wolf laser and dealing with items like link bomb. Oh, and edge guarding. Giving longer duration to the hitboxes by axing the wind boxes makes poking people out of things off stage a touch easier.

Bubble
It is hard to tell how centralizing this move will become. None of the aforementioned changes are meant to compensate for any nerfs to this move (if they are deemed necessary). This move is crazy. It can never be crouch canceled. It is safe on shield when spaced (grounded, aerial too if you drift back soon enough). Sets up tech chasing, of which Squirtle is a contender for most proficient at. Is disjointed too, so it can mitigate is range issue. The only issues it has are being transcendant, so projectiles ruin it and the startup/commitment being an issue, especially vs characters who can easily jump over it.

Bubble is great, if it ends up being too good, a rework will be necessary. Nerf it, buff some other tools in compensation. That is some thoughts on where Squirtle should be headed.

Also, lol. Title change to "Buff my main plz thread" when?

 

[Setton]

Down smash being returned would be nice, it was perfect before.

But, like TheGravyTrain said, Squirtle's tech roll is a big issue. I see arguments about him sliding when he has momentum, but that doesn't make up for the terrible situations he's put in with throws, Wario dsmash, etc. And Luigi does too, but his tech roll is fine. Not only does Squirtle not go far, he can be hit shortly after he starts moving. As an example, when Kirby down throws Squirtle, he can down smash and hit a tech in place or tech towards, or forward smash and hit tech away, the hits are weak for some situations but hopefully that gives an idea of how lacking it is. Even the weak back hit of up smash can hit tech towards. Its not just Squirtle, a few other characters should get tech roll buffs too, in my opinion, like Falcon.

 

[_Chrome]

Down smash being returned would be nice, it was perfect before.

But, like TheGravyTrain said, Squirtle's tech roll is a big issue. I see arguments about him sliding when he has momentum, but that doesn't make up for the terrible situations he's put in with throws, Wario dsmash, etc. And Luigi does too, but his tech roll is fine. Not only does Squirtle not go far, he can be hit shortly after he starts moving. As an example, when Kirby down throws Squirtle, he can down smash and hit a tech in place or tech towards, or forward smash and hit tech away, the hits are weak for some situations but hopefully that gives an idea of how lacking it is. Even the weak back hit of up smash can hit tech towards. Its not just Squirtle, a few other characters should get tech roll buffs too, in my opinion, like Falcon.

Falcon seriously needs no buffs. Do to his overall good MU spread as against the Brawl characters and his slight recovery buffs he's already seen, another buff would be totatslly unnecessary. I would not however be against a tech roll buff to Squirtle.

 

[Setton]

Fair enough, I'll admit I may underestimate Falcon a bit. The point is there's a few characters that could use some tech roll buffs, not many and not huge buffs. I don't think Squirtle's tech roll should get a huge buff, I just want it to be not trash. That being said, Squirtle isn't by any means bad right now, but I think a tech roll buff and returned down smash would be completely fair. Personally that's all I think Squirtle needs and all I want.

 

[Boiko]

Dtilt negating CC is, uh..curious. What would the counter play be?

 

[FreeGamer]

for real though when is squirtle getting ice beam

 

[FreeGamer]

Lol Farquaad
Yeah Kirby doesn't need nearly that many buffs. Those attributes listed alone were huge. Kirby is lacking for sure but he's not terrible, some buffs here and there sure, but all of that would be crazy.

Think of it more as getting a new sculpture, then chiseling it into perfection. Kinda like how they uber-buffed Wario from 2.1 to 2.5 and have been mostly nerfing him ever since, yet even now he's still far better off than a lot of characters.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Boiko
You can still crouch cancel the second hit till around 20% (when it starts knocking down) as Fox for example. Honestly it would be barrely any different than Roy's. Squirtle's has less range, wouldn't have to worry about true crouch (because of the linking hit), but in turn can be sdi'd out of to avoid the launching hit. Right now it is relying on lack of mu knowledge and the difficulty to get around the glaring flaw that you never have to get hit by the launching hit. And before you say its to hard to expect that (like the discussion on Luigi jab up b turned into), Axe cc shielded Fox jab up smash, and so did Hbox (?) at Evo. It is coming.