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Tier List Speculation

Avro-Arrow

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i dunno man, the weight buff was pretty dumb because cc

so was giving him marth and roy's dtilt in one dtilt

but that aint none of my buisness because i'm not pmdt
I dunno what you have to complain about, your main is Roy, which is arguably MK's worst MU.
 

nimigoha

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He raises a point I haven't seen before. MK does have both Roy and Marth's Dtilt. It's pretty nasty.
 

_Chrome

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i dunno man, the weight buff was pretty dumb because cc

so was giving him marth and roy's dtilt in one dtilt

but that aint none of my buisness because i'm not pmdt
I would say the weight buff was actually a pretty wise decision. He was horrible in 3.5; one of the reasons being his weight was 70, which was less than Kirby's. He was really, really, really easily killed. It's more appropriate having his weight at 79 I find. Besides that, I see no problem with his down tilt. Just because he has a good dtilt and a good CC, he still isn't centralized around CC dtilts. It's way too slow and defensive, especially since a MK main should be on their feet (or in this case, their wings, not their feet :p). Besides, Roy's CC dtilt is way better, and Marth and Roy also have longer range than MK to offset the fact that he's faster than them in this case.

EDIT: If I had to choose between Marth's or Roy's dtilts, I'd choose Roy's any day. I'd also choose it over having a mix of the two 1000%.
 
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Avro-Arrow

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Also, MK's dtilt is easily shield grabbed unless at *max* range; Marth's and Roy's dtilts are much harder to punish except by read.
 

PlateProp

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I dunno what you have to complain about, your main is Roy, which is arguably MK's worst MU.
Roy isin't my main kek

I would say the weight buff was actually a pretty wise decision. He was horrible in 3.5; one of the reasons being his weight was 70, which was less than Kirby's. He was really, really, really easily killed. It's more appropriate having his weight at 79 I find. Besides that, I see no problem with his down tilt. Just because he has a good dtilt and a good CC, he still isn't centralized around CC dtilts. It's way too slow and defensive, especially since a MK main should be on their feet (or in this case, their wings, not their feet :p). Besides, Roy's CC dtilt is way better, and Marth and Roy also have longer range than MK to offset the fact that he's faster than them in this case.

EDIT: If I had to choose between Marth's or Roy's dtilts, I'd choose Roy's any day. I'd also choose it over having a mix of the two 1000%.
IMO His weight was increased too much, 74-75 would be a good compromise.
Never said anything about him being centralized around cc dtilt lol

The entire point of pointing out that it's Roy and Marth's dtilts in one is to point out the absurdity of it. Not that Marth or Roy's might be less punishable. There's a reason Roy and Marth dont share dtilts, MK really shouldn't have both. I agree with you that it should be like Roy's and pop opponents up.
 
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_Chrome

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Never said you said MK was centralized around CC dtilt.

~

We're probably talking about this/nitpicking too much. I actually think giving MK Roy's dtilt would make him better and I don't want him to be changed in anyway really. I love just about everything about the character, all assets and flaws considered. I could talk about him all day. :)

I would be okay with a weight change to 74-5 though. It wouldn't really change that much, just hurt his CC and survivability a little bit.
 

Strong Badam

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He raises a point I haven't seen before. MK does have both Roy and Marth's Dtilt. It's pretty nasty.
People say this a lot.... he has both in concept, but not in actuality. The KB stats on both the Roy-esque pop-up (much much more susceptible to crouch) and the Marth-esque send-away poke (mostly the angle on the tip makes it worse) are worse, and his sword is also shorter than both, giving it less effective threat range. It also does less damage so even though it has similar endlag, it is less safe on shield on top of being shorter so he can't space it as far away.
 

tasteless gentleman

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I think that Olimar's susceptibility to RNG is a bit overstated. I've never been in a position where I thought that my line up was costing me the game.
I actually meant against the opponent as well as olimar.

Have you ever had 3 purples and a blue/red? You can wall out your opponent and theres not a terribly large amount of cast that can handle that and it can gimp a large amount of the cast with 2 Fairs.

Have you ever had only yellow or whites in the early stock? That can certainly be ugly for olimar.

I'm not saying that RNG is bad, but it definately dictates how i am going to play. I want to go for a grab? Hope i have more than purple in my line up.

Need to kill my opponent who is at 130%? Oh cool i hope these yellows and whites can get the job done lol.


I mean a stitch can determine an early kill or not.
I am saying a purple/blue can determine and early kill or not, maybe not to the same degree but its there for sure.
 

Ripple

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It seems to me like people want to nerf MKs weight simply because he's really good, not because he weighs too much.

If you're trying to argue that he weighs too much maybe you should look at your own character first. Because if MKs weight is causing unnecessary strife in the MUs, then your character might have a problem, not mk.
 
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Star ☆

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I don't post on here very often but I feel should articulate some of my ideas about Sonic, outside of what I wrote in the guide, after being called out by _Chrome _Chrome and Avro-Arrow Avro-Arrow several pages ago.

In my view, Sonic's design is very apt in this current version of Project M; he has clear weaknesses and strengths. However, I feel that his weaknesses somewhat extrude themselves too harshly for them to all co-exist. In my opinion, Sonic's three main weaknesses are;

1. His general lack of disjoint and/or lingering hitboxes.
2. His light weight.
3. His vulnerability when recovering with Spring due to how long he floats at the top of the animation before the ledge grab box becomes active.

Now, by themselves, all three weaknesses individually are outweighed by clear strengths that Sonic has in other aspects of his kit such as his fast run speed/grabs, his general floatiness and his recovery mixup options through his other special moves respectively. When coupled together though, these weaknesses can incapacitate Sonic in certain situations/matchups and after playing this character for more than two years now and watching other players extensively, I can confidently conclude that Sonic usually dies in one of two ways;

1. Trading onstage or misspacing a grab onstage, due to how risky some of Sonic's aerial approach options are, and thus being KOed instantly or...
2. Being forced to Spring sweetspot and taking a heavy hit at the ledge.

Now, to correlate back to his weaknesses that I mentioned before, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots; these weaknesses clearly bolster each other and create an unnecessary level of flimsiness for Sonic. I think it is vital that one of these weaknesses are addressed in order for Sonic to become less volatile as a character. Personally, I think his Spring is the one that should be addressed the most, it's similar to Melee Falcon in how it takes a long time to actually grab the ledge after reaching its highest position and whilst you can mixup heights and use aerials, this often isn't enough against smart players who can perform appropriate counterplay with large hitboxes.

I hope this can provide a fresh perspective on Sonic.
 
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nimigoha

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People say this a lot.... he has both in concept, but not in actuality. The KB stats on both the Roy-esque pop-up (much much more susceptible to crouch) and the Marth-esque send-away poke (mostly the angle on the tip makes it worse) are worse, and his sword is also shorter than both, giving it less effective threat range. It also does less damage so even though it has similar endlag, it is less safe on shield on top of being shorter so he can't space it as far away.
Yeah it's like he trades a bit of strength and safety for versatility.

Also I'm trying to find data but my searches aren't very fruitful - can you confirm that Falco's Dash speed hasn't been changed from Melee?
 

Eisen

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So, what's everyone's opinion on 3.6 Lucas? I've been ignoring PM too much and the Smash 4 effect is kinda wearing off at this point ( still a good game, I just am getting into PM again ).

Personally, I feel like in these two guidelines of Project M's design goal, Lucas in 3.6 falls short:

  • where the player has a great degree of control over their character due to the technical skill that they've achieved.
  • The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.

As I've written HERE just recently, the key to beating Lucas is simple -- sit back, wait for him to run out of his difficult-to-space offensive options, and punish him due to his weight/fall speed combination and keep batting him offstage due to the predictable recovery. Also, crouch cancel pretty much any time he gets closer than like halfway across the stage. Unless you're Falcon, cause then you can just wait for Lucas to throw out a move and then bum-rush him lmao.

You guys may think I'm kidding or just salty, but imagine trying to approach with Fox if your grab was slow/with lots of cooldown, nair only did its job for 2 frames (Lucas' fair sweetspot only lasts two whole frames and is smaller than Falcon's knee or Zelda's kick hitboxes ayyylmao), and everything else could be stopped with CC. Also, you have to space shine like Marth spacing tippers in order to have a chance at following up, and even then the chances of the move's jankiness working against you probably means your follow ups will be either really good or really not-there. Not to mention your only good/consistent anti-pressure tool is CC magnet/OOS magnet, which just gets beaten by every other character's CC options anyway.

TL;DR, Lucas has horribly designed hitboxes that hit like chain-mace -- good if you get the tip, but if you misspace it even a little, the chain is the only thing that hits and your enemy might go "ow, that hurt. brb wrecking you". Luckily I've already made a superior beta build of an improved moveset in the link I provided that hopefully gets noticed... :T
 
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Avro-Arrow

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I don't post on here very often but I feel should articulate some of my ideas about Sonic, outside of what I wrote in the guide, after being called out by _Chrome _Chrome and Avro-Arrow Avro-Arrow several pages ago.

In my view, Sonic's design is very apt in this current version of Project M; he has clear weaknesses and strengths. However, I feel that his weaknesses somewhat extrude themselves too harshly for them to all co-exist. In my opinion, Sonic's three main weaknesses are;

1. His general lack of disjoint and/or lingering hitboxes.
2. His light weight.
3. His vulnerability when recovering with Spring due to how long he floats at the top of the animation before the ledge grab box becomes active.

Now, by themselves, all three weaknesses individually are outweighed by clear strengths that Sonic has in other aspects of his kit such as his fast run speed/grabs, his general floatiness and his recovery mixup options through his other special moves respectively. When coupled together though, these weaknesses can cripple Sonic in certain situations/matchups and after playing this character for more than two years now and watching other players extensively, I can confidently conclude that Sonic usually dies in one of two ways;

1. Trading onstage or misspacing a grab onstage, due to how risky some of Sonic's aerial approach options are, and thus being KOed instantly or...
2. Being forced to Spring sweetspot and taking a heavy hit at the ledge.

Now, to correlate back to his weaknesses that I mentioned before, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots; these weaknesses clearly bolster each other and create an unnecessary level of flimsiness for Sonic. I think it is vital that one of these weaknesses are addressed in order for Sonic to become less volatile as a character. Personally, I think his Spring is the one that should be addressed the most, it's similar to Melee Falcon in how it takes a long time to actually grab the ledge after reaching its highest position and whilst you can mixup heights and use aerials, this often isn't enough against smart players who can perform appropriate counterplay with large hitboxes.

I hope this can provide a fresh perspective on Sonic.
It is because of this flimsiness that I find Sonic really hard to play right now: not necessarily that he loses a bunch of MUs, but that it takes so much work and precision to get the job done such that I'm getting punished for little mistakes way more than I should be (and a big reason why I've been going ZSS lately). Personally, I was going to propose a weight buff since his survivability is so low, although I didn't mention it since it was unfocused for the current conversation but also because I'd thought it would have been more fitting to his design to improve some sort of offense/coverage ability in neutral (this would probably have coincided with point one you made of Sonic's weaknesses). However, I saw this as a problem too since the tools he has in his kit already serve useful purposes, so changing them around, especially this late in the development cycle on a character who's basically complete, seemed wrong.

Right now I still feel tentative buffing Sonic's recovery since he already has one of the best in the game; however it could be for the best, especially when sweet spotting his spring recovery is exhausting enough as it is. Lol @ the large hitboxes part. It's the main reason I'm uneasy about going up against an Ike in bracket as Sonic. I also feel like his problem with the hang time is exacerbated in match ups where he is pushed to the edge of the stage easily (i.e. Marth, Fox, and MK) and sets up easy edge guards for them.

About the weight, this doesn't merit the change, but his weight in Brawl is 95 and now it's 82. Which is pretty significant. If his weight were higher, getting trades in neutral wouldn't be as devastating. Especially when it's so easy to get trades: if they see an aerial approach coming and react, you're very likely to trade since there's no coverage.

BTW can we please get Star ☆ Star ☆ on the Dev team? Seriously, we need someone there and Star's done a great job building the Sonic community up.
 

PlateProp

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People say this a lot.... he has both in concept, but not in actuality. The KB stats on both the Roy-esque pop-up (much much more susceptible to crouch) and the Marth-esque send-away poke (mostly the angle on the tip makes it worse) are worse, and his sword is also shorter than both, giving it less effective threat range. It also does less damage so even though it has similar endlag, it is less safe on shield on top of being shorter so he can't space it as far away.
The KB on the Roy pop up actually seems better because it wont send people light years away at later percents. But I guess I just dont personally agree with having both on one move ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


It seems to me like people want to nerf MKs weight simply because he's really good, not because he weighs too much.

If you're trying to argue the second point maybe you should look at your own character first. Because if MKs weight is causing unnecessary strife in the MUs, then your character might have a problem, not mk.
Like pmdt would actually buff squirtle

That's a good joke /s
 

shairn

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People say this a lot.... he has both in concept, but not in actuality. The KB stats on both the Roy-esque pop-up (much much more susceptible to crouch) and the Marth-esque send-away poke (mostly the angle on the tip makes it worse) are worse, and his sword is also shorter than both, giving it less effective threat range. It also does less damage so even though it has similar endlag, it is less safe on shield on top of being shorter so he can't space it as far away.
Isn't MK's sword longer than both? I recall seeing a graph comparing all the swords in the game. Not that it matters, because MK's little potato hands can't go as far as Marth's slender biceps.
 

JOE!

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Isn't MK's sword longer than both? I recall seeing a graph comparing all the swords in the game. Not that it matters, because MK's little potato hands can't go as far as Marth's slender biceps.
MK's sword is longer but has less effective reach due to only having stubs.
 

PlateProp

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yeah but djc allows lucas to drift left/right so it kinda just becomes another interaction
Lucas drifting would actually make it easier to sdi because you get more movement compared to lucas just dairing on top of you, simular to Fox Uair. I "think" the only way to challenge this would be to mixup and do a RAR dair so that they sdi into the hits instead of out.

Also any fox players here need to start using rar uair after uthrow cause it will totally **** up everyone's sdi
 

Jolteon

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Echoing SB here, would people really prefer MK to have Roy's dtilt or something? lol.
 

Leafeon

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In my view, Sonic's design is very apt in this current version of Project M; he has clear weaknesses and strengths. However, I feel that his weaknesses somewhat extrude themselves too harshly for them to all co-exist. In my opinion, Sonic's three main weaknesses are;

1. His general lack of disjoint and/or lingering hitboxes.


I hope this can provide a fresh perspective on Sonic.
Hahaha... not for meeeee
 

PlateProp

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Echoing SB here, would people really prefer MK to have Roy's dtilt or something? lol.
I think it would make more sense for it to be one or the other, but the Roy part of the dtilt seems to mesh better with his kit of getting people into the air and eating them instead of just shunting them away. I'm no MK main but it seems the best use of the tip is like marth's in just poking people away from ledge. Why does MK really need to do that when he has 3 jumps and can just go out and bair/nair from ledge?

Would be cool to get actual input from pmdt on why he does have both currently too :o
 
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CORY

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I think it would make more sense for it to be one or the other, but the Roy part of the dtilt seems to mesh better with his kit of getting people into the air and eating them instead of just shunting them away. I'm no MK main but it seems the best use of the tip is like marth's in just poking people away from ledge. Why does MK really need to do that when he has 3 jumps and can just go out and bair/nair from ledge?

Would be cool to get actual input from pmdt on why he does have both currently too :o
Pmdt: "because we hate you and you play squirtle."
 

GuruKid

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On the topic of MetaKnight I have a relatively specific question, Guru Kid was using a lot of DC as a quick movement option and to get down from juggles, is this a common tactic? I don't recall having ever seen other metaknights using it, is there just a simple counter play and he was exploiting lack of matchup knowledge? Sorry if this is an ignorant question, I just thought it was neat and didn't see any mention of it on the Meta Knight boards

For reference the set of Jaden v Guru Kid is around 2:50 in the hitbox vod
Not an ignorant question at all. Against Rolex, XYK and Professor Pro I was admittedly largely banking on lack of matchup knowledge to basically abuse DC as a movement and approach tool but it is absolutely punishable if you're too reckless and predictable with it. Opponents who learn DC's range and Metaknight's options out of it can learn to expect it and simply throw out an attack in anticipation. My set vs Frozen in winners (and the latter matches vs Jaden) should highlight good ways for opponents to punish empty DC approaches (Frozen knows my playstyle and the matchup very well). It's a great tool to escape pressure when you're in the air too but again... you can't be too predictable with it, or you'll be hit and combo'd heavily. Also consider that you lose your jumps when you use Down B, so if you're hit out of it while in the air you're out of jumps and extremely vulnerable... so use with caution.

Hope that helps.
 

Xykness

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Not an ignorant question at all. Against Rolex, XYK and Professor Pro I was admittedly largely banking on lack of matchup knowledge to basically abuse DC as a movement and approach tool but it is absolutely punishable if you're too reckless and predictable with it. Opponents who learn DC's range and Metaknight's options out of it can learn to expect it and simply throw out an attack in anticipation. My set vs Frozen in winners (and the latter matches vs Jaden) should highlight good ways for opponents to punish empty DC approaches (Frozen knows my playstyle and the matchup very well). It's a great tool to escape pressure when you're in the air too but again... you can't be too predictable with it, or you'll be hit and combo'd heavily. Also consider that you lose your jumps when you use Down B, so if you're hit out of it while in the air you're out of jumps and extremely vulnerable... so use with caution.

Hope that helps.
I actually did not know much about DC, but l can see how it is punishable now. Just gotta learn that range.
P.S. Good job at tearing up bracket at WTT!
 

Player -0

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Eisen Eisen The hitbox "problem" isn't a big deal until you get into super fast fallers/spacies. Spacing isn't THAT important in neutral due to none of Lucas' super important neutral moves needing spacing (You can point to Fair but Fair is pretty suboptimal neutral option, mag and dash dance 4lyf). Lucas has decent pop up moves (I actually think he does a bit better than some characters). While Lucas' grab is slow, and grabs are pretty important in getting opponents to non CC percent, he has Mag and the dash dance to ensure opponents won't be true CC'ing. This alllows Lucas to do things. I also think his neutral is p gud. Because dash dance. And mag.

yeah.


Avro-Arrow Avro-Arrow I think the lightweight (which accents Sonic's inability to make trades) is actually a good thing in rounding out Sonic. Currently Sonic is really fast (yeah, it's not 4.0 speed fast or crazy relative to other fast characters but it's still fast). This enables him to dash dance camp the opponent (blahblahblah you know this stuff, skip). I think trading is a good way to mitigate this. Sonic is super fast and can do a lot of damage while still retaining pretty good killing power. If Sonic were to be able to trade well into this it would be a bit awkward.

I didn't really explain myself well but lol.
 

Strong Badam

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Also I'm trying to find data but my searches aren't very fruitful - can you confirm that Falco's Dash speed hasn't been changed from Melee?
Yup, can confirm. That'd be quite a bizarre thing to nerf, he's not particularly fast to begin with.
 

nimigoha

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Sweet thanks, I guess that's word of god when people say "yeah I get that the animation looks slower but it definitely feels slower" and won't accept that it's the same.

Eisen Eisen The hitbox "problem" isn't a big deal until you get into super fast fallers/spacies. Spacing isn't THAT important in neutral due to none of Lucas' super important neutral moves needing spacing (You can point to Fair but Fair is pretty suboptimal neutral option, mag and dash dance 4lyf). Lucas has decent pop up moves (I actually think he does a bit better than some characters). While Lucas' grab is slow, and grabs are pretty important in getting opponents to non CC percent, he has Mag and the dash dance to ensure opponents won't be true CC'ing. This alllows Lucas to do things. I also think his neutral is p gud. Because dash dance. And mag.

yeah.
And PKF if they're CCing, if you space it well and don't get yourself right next to them.
 

Jolteon

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I think it would make more sense for it to be one or the other, but the Roy part of the dtilt seems to mesh better with his kit of getting people into the air and eating them instead of just shunting them away. I'm no MK main but it seems the best use of the tip is like marth's in just poking people away from ledge. Why does MK really need to do that when he has 3 jumps and can just go out and bair/nair from ledge?

Would be cool to get actual input from pmdt on why he does have both currently too :o
The hybrid Marth/Roy-esque dtilt was made some time before I joined, but I'm fairly certain it came from a pre-release concept build where MK had a defined sweet/sour-spot system. Non-tipper hits had higher bkb/lower kbg and more specialized trajectories, e.g. combo moves had higher angles, and tipper hits were more generic angle, lower damage, low bkb/high kbg hits that were safer and became more rewarding as they built %, which is essentially how MK's dtilt acts right now.

FWIW I think that, while the tipper hit is useful for edge guarding, it sending people away also helps to keep his DD dtilt game in check. You can use it similarly to Marth's dtilt in neutral where the tipper hit works as a safe poke out of his DD but without the full-blown reward of launching them into the air as Meta Knight.

Balance/design aside, I think the versatility of the move just makes it far more interesting, it has more depth to it than Roy/Marth's dtilt imo. I think if it were like Roy's dtilt it would just be wayyyy better than his current dtilt is and also more bland. Not saying that the move isn't already extremely good (it definitely is), but I think with his other attributes it'd be extremely questionable for him to have a Roy-esque dtilt. You could just make it more similar to Marth's I guess but I think losing it would hurt his conversions pretty badly, which is something that I personally tried to address for MK from 3.5 -> 3.6.
 
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Avro-Arrow

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Avro-Arrow Avro-Arrow I think the lightweight (which accents Sonic's inability to make trades) is actually a good thing in rounding out Sonic. Currently Sonic is really fast (yeah, it's not 4.0 speed fast or crazy relative to other fast characters but it's still fast). This enables him to dash dance camp the opponent (blahblahblah you know this stuff, skip). I think trading is a good way to mitigate this. Sonic is super fast and can do a lot of damage while still retaining pretty good killing power. If Sonic were to be able to trade well into this it would be a bit awkward.

I didn't really explain myself well but lol.
If I'm being honest, and I am, I'll admit you didn't explain yourself "well," although it's probably because it didn't really need much explaining and it felt kind of flat to you. I wouldn't necessarily lobby for a weight that lets him trade well, but rather a weight that makes it so that he doesn't get owned so hard for trading (which is something he has trouble avoiding in some MUs/scenarios). Didn't mean to make it sound like I wanted him to trade well if that's the case. Thanks for clarifying. :)
 
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Jamble

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But as a Sonic player, even with a bit better weight, is that ultimately solving the problem? Even with weight that doesn't get you owned so hard for trading, I feel like the bigger issue is how often you end up trading in the first place. Even some decently weighted characters can't really afford to trade with certain characters at decent percentages. I feel like messing with statistics like weight might just lead to other things that'll need to be tweaked accordingly to account for the change, wouldn't it? Or do you think that a weight change is a better fix just to avoid as harsh of trades?
 

Avro-Arrow

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Yeah, it`s about the harshness of the trade. Changing his kit in a way that would prevent him from trading as much would be nice, but I just don't think it's going to happen this far down the development cycle. Of course, I'd love for his kit to be buffed, but I'm not hedging (get it? hedging?!? Hedgehog?!? Aren't I just great?!?) my bets on it. I think the smaller a fix is, the safer it is from a design point of view, and that's why buffing the spring or his weight is probably a better solution.
 
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Ripple

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Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,630
no one answered my question about ZSS or tethers in general earlier so I guess I'll ask again. I assume people thought ledge cancelling was possible but no ones' ever done it right? I've personally never seen it been done.

so I found out how to do it with everyone

 
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