Tier List Speculation

[_Chrome]

I feel like a change to Peach's dsmash has already been suggested here, but I'll bite because it's a pretty important topic. I'm all for changing the damage output and retaining the knockback. Also her RNG with the turnips pulling Mr. Saturn and friends needs to go. It's really dumb to lose a tourney match to beam sword. (See the Prof Pro vs Armada match linked a while back on this thread, or on YouTube.) I hope we don't argue about this for as long as we did about Bowser, where we also keep saying the same arguments over and over again, but that's my viewpoint on Peach's dsmash and RNG.

 

[Life]

I won my local today. Does this make my opinions more valid? Kappa

Nah but seriously who wants to talk about Wolf because I do

I think I underestimated Wolf's recovery, his upB has much less startup than Fox's so your opponent can't as easily get into position to cover every option, also sideB is actually threatening and once somebody masters laser haxdashing watch out

He's more resistant to vertical kill throws than any other character in the game, fun fact

And I'm getting more heavy punishes with Wolf than I have with basically any other character I've touched

Just gotta get my laser wavelands lower

 

[CORY]

yeah, wolf seems like he should be super good (and several tier lists posted have reflected that). i think he just lacks some sort of BIG representation somewhere. that makes some people kinda knee jerk in regards to him like "worse falco laser, worse falco/fox shine, side/upb recovery mixups don't work the same, going into kills feels obtuse, yadda yadda" and people just tend to forget about him and everything he's capable of.

 

[JOE!]

He's more resistant to vertical kill throws than any other character in the game, fun fact

He's also 2nd behind Falcon for normal vertical KOs too.

 

[G13_Flux]

I won my local today. Does this make my opinions more valid? Kappa

Nah but seriously who wants to talk about Wolf because I do

I think I underestimated Wolf's recovery, his upB has much less startup than Fox's so your opponent can't as easily get into position to cover every option, also sideB is actually threatening and once somebody masters laser haxdashing watch out

He's more resistant to vertical kill throws than any other character in the game, fun fact

And I'm getting more heavy punishes with Wolf than I have with basically any other character I've touched

Just gotta get my laser wavelands lower

He's also 2nd behind Falcon for normal vertical KOs too.

and he can infinite hax dash his laser with full invulnerability.

 

[Strong Badam]

I currently think Wolf is the 2nd best character in the game. Take that as you will.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm going to be old before you f***ers realize that Smash has never been a game about normalization

This just in: I am old.

 

[Chevy]

I won my local today. Does this make my opinions more valid? Kappa

Nah but seriously who wants to talk about Wolf because I do

I think I underestimated Wolf's recovery, his upB has much less startup than Fox's so your opponent can't as easily get into position to cover every option, also sideB is actually threatening and once somebody masters laser haxdashing watch out

He's more resistant to vertical kill throws than any other character in the game, fun fact

And I'm getting more heavy punishes with Wolf than I have with basically any other character I've touched

Just gotta get my laser wavelands lower

Fox and Falco both have higher gravity then Wolf, so he should die a little easier from killing throws than they do. This is also why he doesn't get chain grabbed for as long as team Star Fox.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I won my local today. Does this make my opinions more valid? Kappa

Nah but seriously who wants to talk about Wolf because I do

I think I underestimated Wolf's recovery, his upB has much less startup than Fox's so your opponent can't as easily get into position to cover every option, also sideB is actually threatening and once somebody masters laser haxdashing watch out

He's more resistant to vertical kill throws than any other character in the game, fun fact

And I'm getting more heavy punishes with Wolf than I have with basically any other character I've touched

Just gotta get my laser wavelands lower

Wolf is amazing. Neutral game possibly comparable to fox's? Punish game similar to Sheik/Falcon? Possibly not as extreme as either, but I don't think anybody informed would consider him anything short of a top 10. I've been working on a secondary wolf lately. Also how big is your scene and are any of the other players notable? I ask mostly out of curiousity.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Mfw Peach dsmash is better than Bowser's

I am being salty but if olimar's grabs worked right and didn't constantly pull in hit boxes then i would safely say the olimar peach MU would be 70/30

 

[Life]

Wolf is amazing. Neutral game possibly comparable to fox's? Punish game similar to Sheik/Falcon? Possibly not as extreme as either, but I don't think anybody informed would consider him anything short of a top 10. I've been working on a secondary wolf lately. Also how big is your scene and are any of the other players notable? I ask mostly out of curiousity.

Not a big scene; personally I don't think we reflect the best PM has to offer. That said, it was a personal breakthrough I'm pretty proud of LOL

and he can infinite hax dash his laser with full invulnerability.

I've actually never managed full invincibility while testing laser haxdash, in frame advance I'm usually invincible up until the projectile comes out but still slightly vulnerable afterwards. Do you happen to know offhand the input timings to get a perfect laser haxdash? Or is that a question I should take to the Wolf boards?

But yeah, you suuuuuper respect Wolf at the ledge or he will maul you. He's at or very near Fox tier for ledge options.

Fox and Falco both have higher gravity then Wolf, so he should die a little easier from killing throws than they do. This is also why he doesn't get chain grabbed for as long as team Star Fox.

Bruh. https://i.imgur.com/xBSDZ0u.jpg (This is the 3.6 updated version)

If Wolf doesn't get chaingrabbed as long, it's because of his extra weight making throw animations longer, not his gravity. (Although he may simply fall out of some regrabs that would work on Fox, too.)

 

[InfinityCollision]

Try (fast?)falling off the ledge for a few frames before you jump. On mobile so I don't have frame data on hand, but that's the method I used when testing it.

Granted Wolf can arguably get away with a couple frames of vulnerability given the hitboxes he puts out in the process. Any attempts to challenge the haxdash would be pretty telegraphed, and he could easily mix things up with an upb ledgestall or use his great ledgedash to challenge the opponent directly.

Wolf has the highest terminal velocity, but his gravity value is lower than that of Falco or Fox.

 

[Binary Clone]

Would people have a problem if it was changed so that single hit Dsmash was completely unchanged (knockback and % all kept the same) and the other hits having reduced % but compensated knockback? Like if you CC all the hits you still get flung as far but take 30% instead of 65%, for example.

I feel like a change to Peach's dsmash has already been suggested here, but I'll bite because it's a pretty important topic. I'm all for changing the damage output and retaining the knockback. Also her RNG with the turnips pulling Mr. Saturn and friends needs to go. It's really dumb to lose a tourney match to beam sword. (See the Prof Pro vs Armada match linked a while back on this thread, or on YouTube.) I hope we don't argue about this for as long as we did about Bowser, where we also keep saying the same arguments over and over again, but that's my viewpoint on Peach's dsmash and RNG.

The problem with Peach's dsmash is that it's too strong at low-level play. At higher levels of play it's pretty much fine, and I don't think that many people will argue that. It's strong without being hugely overwhelming, one of those tools that's borderline, that we should keep. The real downside is that most of those tools, like shine, aren't actually that overwhelming at low levels of play - if you don't have the technical ability, shine isn't that good. It's good, but not overwhelming or hugely frustrating.

Peach dsmash is very frustrating at low levels of play, because it's very high reward for something that is very easy, and newer players who don't know how to play around it get punished extremely hard.

The solution would probably be to reduce the damage of the middle hits, maintain damage of first and last hits, and compensate knockback of those middle hits. We definitely shouldn't just make it a normal multi-hit style move, because that means than you could SDI out of the middle of it, be right next to Peach, and be able to punish, which would be a pretty big nerf. A damage nerf on the middle hits with KB compensated means that all it does is make you lose out on some damage against players that make mistakes - you still get good damage from those first and last hits (so it stays as safe on shield as it is now) and it has as much knockback power when you hit. In high level play, the damage changes don't make a huge difference, because most people shouldn't be caught by many multiple hits of it anyway. In low-level play, you don't get pushed halfway to kill percent because you don't understand that you shouldn't hold down, and it's less frustrating.


I agree with the RNG stuff, obviously. I've posted about it before, and I don't like it. I'll probably be making a post about RNG in general later, but I dislike pretty much all of the RNG in PM for various reasons.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Have there been any interesting solutions regarding RNG in the past? I'm probably doo-doo at balancing but I like to share my thoughts and having other people criticize them / point out potential flaws.

I've been thinking about removing beam swords altogether and modify stitch faces in a certain way (that I'm not sure about yet)

I was thinking about some weird **** like having a holdeable Down-B where Peach would start "charging" a turnip pull (basically like charging OU with Lucas) where it would give you a Stitch after "charging" it long enough. It'd be interruptable but maybe take much longer than something like OU. Maybe if it just blocked regular turnip pulls for the time being to compensate for its strength? The stitch should be somewhat nerfed in exchange.

Then again it'd remove one of her best tools during the charging period and probably promote camping while slowing down Peach matches even more.

Bob-Ombs are kinda dumb too. How about Bob-Ombs only being available with a 3 stock deficit or **** like that. Extra hype and responsibility.... but might also, once again, promote camping.

I say we remove Peach.

And what about G&W's judgement? Any fun ideas regarding that?

 

[Binary Clone]

Have there been any interesting solutions regarding RNG in the past? I'm probably doo-doo at balancing but I like to share my thoughts and having other people criticize them / point out potential flaws.

I've been thinking about removing beam swords altogether and modify stitch faces in a certain way (that I'm not sure about yet)

I was thinking about some weird **** like having a holdeable Down-B where Peach would start "charging" a turnip pull (basically like charging OU with Lucas) where it would give you a Stitch after "charging" it long enough. It'd be interruptable but maybe take much longer than something like OU. Maybe if it just blocked regular turnip pulls for the time being to compensate for its strength? The stitch should be somewhat nerfed in exchange.

Then again it'd remove one of her best tools during the charging period and probably promote camping while slowing down Peach matches even more.

Bob-Ombs are kinda dumb too. How about Bob-Ombs only being available with a 3 stock deficit or **** like that. Extra hype and responsibility.... but might also, once again, promote camping.

I say we remove Peach.

And what about G&W's judgement? Any fun ideas regarding that?

Charging could be good, but there's always the factor of having a reuseable "charged" projectile then, which means balance could be hard, especially considering the downtime available in some MUs (like hitting Samus far offstage or something) and between stocks for free charge.

GnW Judgement is so dumb. I love playing GnW, and I almost never use it. I liked the idea of making it "charge" over time. Basically you rebalance each hit, and then make it start at 1. On hit, the next Judgement will be a 2. And so on.

This promotes some interesting play, because it incentivises you to basically drop certain combos early on in the game just to increment the counter for the sake of having more powerful moves down the line. Of course there's also the addition to that that it could decrement on whiff, too, which means there's more risk-reward there - or you could purposefully whiff your 8 for the sake of healing with your next judgement, too.

 

[Life]

The point of Peach RNG designways, as far as I can tell, is to give her very threatening turnip pulls so that characters who don't mind dealing with regular turnips (e.g. Fox) can't just camp her out because they'll risk getting equalized by a stitchface/bob-omb, walled out by beamsword (as we saw with Prof), etc. More turnip pulls = greater chance of a critical pull.

If you propose getting rid of Peach's RNG without compensating for that X factor somehow, you are risking turning many Peach matchups into campfests. Nobody wants that, right? I'm not saying there isn't a better way, but anything you propose should keep that in mind. (Increase the probability of a stitch face but prevent Peach from pulling any in the first two minutes of the game/unless she does X turnip pulls first?)

Not being able to easily discern stitchface from other turnip types is a much bigger issue IMO, and one more easily solved (unless the texture coding for them is dumb or something).

 

[Ramz289]

To who ever asked for a Ganon guide:
http://smashboards.com/guides/the-c...-and-strategy-guide-for-the-king-of-evil.608/
^ this is the shiz, 4 realz
CORY I thought you would be the one to post this considering it has you're flame choke frame data stuff.
There's also June's guide on his YouTube channel, it's pretty good but honestly the link above is better.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I currently think Wolf is the 2nd best character in the game. Take that as you will.

Likewise. I think in 3.6 his laser is actually better than falco's.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

wolf's projectile is the best laser in the game all other projectiles save pre-3.0 zss paralyzer need not apply

 

[Rᴏb]

Judgement charging on-hit is a step in the right direction, but to take it even further I think the number you get should be based on the number of hits you've landed in the combo immediately before as opposed to the number of hits you've landed with the move itself. The definition of "combo" I'm using is: any sequence of attacks that prevent the opponent from landing (possibly by tech) or ledge-grabbing.

For example, G&W will roll a 1 by default and if he lands a single hit on someone. He'll roll a 2 if he gets 2 hits off on someone before they hit the ground, he'll roll a 3 for 3, etc.
If he lands a 6 hit combo and then a 3 hit combo, he'll roll a 3.
The move itself wouldn't contribute to it's charge.
Using judgement would completely reset your charge back to 1.

This system would reward the player for playing well, make 9's actually cool, would play into G&W's combo-heavy punish game, and thus wouldn't necessarily diminish the likely hood of getting a 9 in a match to the extent that Binary Clone's system would.

 

[Life]

Y'know, this game has a lot of lasers in it. All three space animals, ZSS, ROB, Ray Gun/Super Scope if you count items, Samus' Final Smash if you count those... if you define a laser as "a weaponized beam of light" you also get stuff like Pit's light arrows and Zelda/Sheik's Final Smash. Not to mention all the lasers that come up on uncommon stages like Halberd, and SSE's lasers, and maybe there are lasers in the trophies somewhere?

As for the actual subject of lasers, while Wolf lasers are incredibly good (I'd like to reiterate once again that laser haxdashing exists and is terrifying), they're also clankable, so I'm not sure they're better than Falco lasers in matchups where that is important.

 

[InfinityCollision]

As with certain other supposed weaknesses in Wolf's kit (shine's CCability for instance), I don't think clankable lasers are significantly detrimental to his gameplan. Clanking means you've committed to a certain space for a certain period of time, which potentially allows him to start up pressure/punishment... two things he's very, very good at.

All Wolf really wants is for you to interact with the laser rather than him. That keeps him safe and gives him ample time to observe in neutral until you **** up and give him an opening to capitalize on.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

smash is a game about stage control
wolf's laser is the best in terms of practical means of stage control

in traditional fighting games, lasers/fireballs/projectiles are not a means of doing damage but a means of pressuring space and building a moving wall. A moving wall is as good as how close it allows the controller to be to it and how long it affects the flow of the neutral before the user has to use more frames to renew it. wolf's relatively slow and wavelandable blaster is the best smash incarnation of all of these traits

and in a sense, it doesn't matter if it clanks. clanking the blaster is still a frame investment that can be punished either on startup or afterwords. there's still the high-low option coverage possibilities, the left/right mixups, and the pressure afterwords. it's like a moving diddy nanner which takes less investment to pull

edit: ayy lmao turns out infinity responded with exactly the same thing while I was busy multitasking typing this post and eating my lunch

 

[Nausicaa]

Wolf and Fox are for sure distinctly top-tier, but I'm not sure they're that guaranteed to be #1+#2.
Looking down the list of characters, there are a LOT of REALLY strong characters in this game.
At least 1 of them has got to be as good as those 2, and therefore bumping one of them down (technically, though not mattering at all) into that #3 position.

Those 2 have been amazing in every incarnation.

Life Wolf's lasers go at a slightly slower pace than Falco's, and through that, have slightly more presence on the stage. AKA, he can play around them more. Moving upon landing with lingering hit-box projectile, in a sense. It's practically dash-cancelling a zss blaster (as Magikarp pointed out, was probably the only projectile better than this)
Wolf was already stupid. This projectile made him stupider.

edit: There's an actual Magikarp that I almost tagged in this for no reason. ha

 

[Ramz289]

Just going to leave this here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V5eq4IQ6Go

*Runs to bombshelter*

 

[Deleted member]

my top tier atm is fox wolf diddy mk, no particular order. no other character really stands out to me like those 4 right now.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

@Umbreon That's what I've been thinking too. _Chrome and I talk about it a lot and it's what we tell people when they ask. Of course, there are a lot of strong characters just outside of them (i.e. Falco, ZSS, Marth, Sheik, Ike, Falcon, Rob, among others), but those four are on another level of good.

 

[Ramz289]

I made a thing
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3t2m69/telling_us_what_to_do_andor_harping_on_the/

Frost | Odds go argu with people about stuff

 

[Lunchmanalchemist]

So basically fatties are the worst, spacies are STILL the best, and you guys argue a lot. Got it.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

So basically fatties are the worst, spacies are STILL the best, and you guys argue a lot. Got it.

And that concludes our tour of Smashboards! Any questions?

 

[_Chrome]

So yeah... the video Ramz289 posted about RNG is accurate. I'm not gonna spoil it, since you should really watch it, but here's another idea for those of you that have watched it: I believe that in certain cases the factor of RNG should be balanced where the risk is higher than the reward. For example, take Time Wizard from Yu-Gi-Oh! (I hope to god you guys remember this guy). Here, the risk is obviously greater than the reward, which means that this card is really only used when your back is up against the wall or for stylin' on your opponent.

"Time Roulette GO!"

Best part about this card is that the initiator of this card's effect put their neck out. Granted, I think the reward and the risk for a game like Smash Bros should be less intense, but this should stand for balancing, oh I don't know, G&W's 1 vs his 9 Judgment. Honestly, I don't think a G&W should just be able to spam a move that has a chance of insta-killing, and I hope other members of the competitive community feel the same way.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Still not convinced MK is top tier. High tier? Sure. But nothing about him stands out as so insane to deserve to be in the talk with Wolf, Diddy, Fox, etc.

 

[_Chrome]

The real question is, what isn't top tier about MK? For starters, let's talk about movement. Sure, MK's air speed isn't the greatest, but he has one of the fastest dash speeds in the game as well as 3 midair jumps. His dash dance is incredible at threatening space and applying pressure which is coupled with a short and fast wavedash for quick re-positioning. His grab game is excellent as well. His fast dash speed gives him very good reason to use JC grabs, and his dash attack nets him a very useful boost grab as well.

This allows MK to easily send people towards the edge with his fthrow, bthrow and dthrow, or tech chase with bthrow or dthrow. His edge guarding capabilities from fthrow and bthrow especially are very important. His nair comes out on frame 3 and slays fast fallers. He can also carry people off-stage with ease through repeated use of his fair.

More on the subject of tech chasing, his dsmash, dash attack, usmash, Dimensional Cape (DC), dtilt, nair, dair, or even Drill Rush are good to chase opponents (besides doing the obvious and grabbing again). I among others believe him to be the best tech-chaser in the game.

His uthrow is no slouch either though. It can set up for nairs or dairs against fast fallers at a variety of percentages, and dependent on the falling speed and weight of the character he's tossing, at high percents (from about 80-120%) he can uthrow into Instant Dimensional Cape (IDC) for a kill. This also works at some earlier percentages to set-up into an edge guard.

Another good option out of his dash dance is his dtilt. It comes out on frame 5 and has IASA frames at iirc frame 20. This means against most characters he has a relatively safe way to either push enemies towards the edge or to pop them up for combos into nair or uair.

Something I like to do is empty DC for teleporting behind my opponent's shield or to perhaps keep my opponent scared and guessing about whether I attack them, do nothing or reappear behind their shield. If you want to see a very technical use of the DC and the Drill Rush look up Tealz vs The Party, commentated by JFalls. He edge cancels for some really fantastic and impressive movement.

As far as the rest of his kit goes, his dtilt, nair, usmash and uair are excellent combo starters. They can easily lead to into an IDC or a bair or dair to finish. He can also choose to kill off the top with his Shuttle Loop upb. He has so many kill moves it's ridiculous. His f- and dsmashes kill, along with his n-, d- and bair, and his DC of course. His nair really shines here though since it comes out on frame 3 and is useful at every percent against every character. He doesn't suffer from Marthritis in that his nair just gets the job done.

His recovery gets good distance and each has their own uses. I could talk about it for a really long time, but my fingers are pretty much bleeding typing this out after a bs midterm. Mach Tornado is really good for covering distance, Shuttle Loop is super good for distance and for recovering beneath the stage with a Reverse Shuttle Loop, downb ain't too great for recovering but it can be used to snap to ledge as a mix-up and for recovering in close. Sideb is awesome to use to get back to stage or edge horizontally, especially after carrying someone offstage with nairs or fairs.

Tell me what you think makes him not top-tier. I'd love to discuss it.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

MK is a very solid character. He has very few unfavourable match ups, but they are all doable.

As for the why, I can give a little bit of insight into that.

MK is one of the fastest characters in the game. He has immaculate grounded mobility, and while his air speed isn't as impressive, he can still zone well through the use of his multiple jumps and disjointed aerials (that, unlike Ike's and Zard's, are quick to come out, so they are very good for reacting to opponents' movements and are harder to bait and punish).

MK is adept at killing both horizontally and vertically, and has many reliable set-ups into doing so. For example, his throws can set-up for DC, bair, or dair off of uthrow, or edgeguards or tech chases dsmash/DC. Speaking of his throws, MK's throws are also very good at low percents, for tech chasing and gaining stage advantage. He also has very little trouble securing a grab, thanks to his movement speed as well as his JC or boost grab (similar to Sheik's).

His nair is good at intercepting aerial approaches and edge guarding, as well as escaping comboes. People like to say MK's green button is really good. They're not wrong. Nair -> dtilt -> nair is hella tight.

Speaking of dtilt, it's similar to Marth's in that it's good against grounded opponents and, depending on the hitbox, pokes away (tip), or pops up (hilt) for an aerial follow-up (making it harder to DI).

MK's recovery is long. It's not the best recovery in PM, but he has neat tricks with the shuttle loop and drill rush is good for catching opponents off guard (also good for extending comboes on stage and for catching people on edge of dash dance/landing). He has multiple jumps so intercepting him from below is trickier. Recovering from below the stage is normally a bad position to be in but not for him because shuttle loop is so hard to challenge.

His dash attack is a good move. He leaps forward so it can catch people at the end of their dash dance or as they are landing. It also crosses up shields, which really helps his shield pressure game since many of his moves are shield grabbable. Out of run he also has dtilts, dsmash and usmash, which are really good for tech chasing/killing and intercepting aerial opponents respectively (skipped talking about dtilt since I already covered that). Usmash leads to nice follow-ups without good DI/SDI, but even so, he gets a lot of advantage anyways.

His shield pressure isn't the best, but crossing up opponents isn't that hard (through dtilt, dash attack, being generally fast, nair, and DC) and helps as I've already said.

Another thing that really helps him out in my opinion is his ability to trap you in at the sides of the stage. All factors considered, MK has many ways to push you to the edge, through tech chases, nairs, dtilts, dash attacks and others. Once you're at the ledge, it's hard to get back in a lot of cases. His dtilt is good at controlling the ground, as are his dash dance, dsmash, and grab, and his fair/nair/bair are good for catching opponents escaping in the air. *** One of MK's biggest assets is the large bubble he controls in the center of the stage. He threatens a lot of space and it's hard to escape once he's cornered you.***

DC is really really really good. I'll leave it at that and let _Chrome explain it since it's kind of his personal stamp on the character (afaik).

 

[_Chrome]

^ There you go talking about them bubbles again. But for real, MK's ability to control space (especially on stages like Yoshi's Story and BF, which have tight, tri-latform layouts) is top tier, rivaling that of Marth's but not requiring the same level of precision.

 

[DrinkingFood]

If you want to give peach a way to discourage camping against her by characters who can handle turnips and remove her RNG, just make better turnips and items take longer to pull. There's already 4-5 tiers of turnip strength (weakest normal ones, Winky faces, dot eyes, stitch faces. Possibly another one in there) and then the items. Just make the weakest ones the quick pull, and add an extra second or so for every tier from there. Peach almost never kills off the top so there's much less threat of her getting super turnips against each spawn. Stronger pulls could also give more or less endlag if this needs adjustments for difficulty of securing a desired turnip, letting her risk punishment for the value of a dot eye/stitch.
It's not a question of whether or not this can be designed well for a fix, it's whether or not it's a big enough deal for PMDT to care.

EDIT didn't realize it wouldnt be obvious that the point of this is to give her control of what turnip she pulls through some means of extending the pull (most sensibly, by holding B)

 

[Avro-Arrow]

^ There you go talking about them bubbles again. But for real, MK's ability to control space (especially on stages like Yoshi's Story and BF, which have tight, tri-latform layouts) is top tier, rivaling that of Marth's but not requiring the same level of precision.

Yes. The bubbles.

Speaking about precision, something I wanted to mention but forgot was the amount of consistency MK offers. He's not like Fox where if you're having a bad day, you're done. He's not incredibly technically demanding to do well and is able to make comebacks relatively easily IMO.

 

[G13_Flux]

was literally about to make a long post about MK and then those posts happened ^.

all ill add is that you take a sword character with great, unclankable disjoint, and you give him the frame data on moves of some of the fastest characters in the game. like really, ftilt and nair on frame 3, dsmash and uair on frame 5, dtilt and fair on frame 6, usmash and utilt on frame 8. ALL disjointed attacks with not much lag at all.

then throw in some great edge guarding, some powerful kill options off reads, a very solid recovery, crazy movement.. hes definitely among the top 5.

edit:

If you want to give peach a way to discourage camping against her by characters who can handle turnips and remove her RNG, just make better turnips and items take longer to pull. There's already 4-5 tiers of turnip strength (weakest normal ones, Winky faces, dot eyes, stitch faces. Possibly another one in there) and then the items. Just make the weakest ones the quick pull, and add an extra second or so for every tier from there. Peach almost never kills off the top so there's much less threat of her getting super turnips against each spawn. Stronger pulls could also give more or less endlag if this needs adjustments for difficulty of securing a desired turnip, letting her risk punishment for the value of a dot eye/stitch.
It's not a question of whether or not this can be designed well for a fix, it's whether or not it's a big enough deal for PMDT to care.

i really dont think this is a good idea. this means that you randomly have to take extra time to pull a turnip, which is bassically the equivalent of sakurais random tripping in brawl. only if there was a way to select when you would take longer would this be a good idea.

 

[_Chrome]

Just think of the potential of the DC when you see what Tealz does in the warm-up with the edge cancelling. It's fancy and effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIFgbnNKYw

 

[Frost | Odds]

Holy **** Pikachu's perfect waveland is sick.

This is the kind of crap that I'm disappointed I had to learn on my own.