Tier List Speculation

[vegeta18]

who are some of the best characters in this game that are not that hard to use, pretty simple/braindead characters is what im looking for since im primarily a smash 4 player but want to dabble a bit into local pm scene.

Or who is someone with a really strong keep away game?

 

[Frost | Odds]

who are some of the best characters in this game that are not that hard to use, pretty simple/braindead characters is what im looking for since im primarily a smash 4 player but want to dabble a bit into local pm scene.

Fox.

Or who is someone with a really strong keep away game?

Fox.

Really though, there's no such thing as a braindead character. You're gonna be playing Smash Bros regardless - just experiment until you find someone that feels good.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

who are some of the best characters in this game that are not that hard to use, pretty simple/braindead characters is what im looking for since im primarily a smash 4 player but want to dabble a bit into local pm scene.

Or who is someone with a really strong keep away game?

1) Stop saying braindead

2) I would play the game and try to find a character that suits your play style and is easy to use for you. That's the best way to figure out who to play.

 

[Life]

As I said on Reddit a few days ago: everyone's a technical, difficult character. Some are more so than others, but nobody's really just easy.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

who are some of the best characters in this game that are not that hard to use, pretty simple/braindead characters is what im looking for since im primarily a smash 4 player but want to dabble a bit into local pm scene.

Or who is someone with a really strong keep away game?

I think Toon link/link/olimar/samus/diddy have decent keep away games, but in pm, keep away is not the best play style.

 

[Soft Serve]

who are some of the best characters in this game that are not that hard to use, pretty simple/braindead characters is what im looking for since im primarily a smash 4 player but want to dabble a bit into local pm scene.

Or who is someone with a really strong keep away game?

If you want quick results and to shut off your brain with minimal time spent as a baseline for tech, you can get pretty far with just a simple spammy link. It won't get you past anyone who knows the mu well but its pretty effective for how much time you put into it.

Or learn the game/a character like everyone else said.

 

[Player -0]

But why would you do that ("brain dead" character thingy)? Are you trying to get money from locals or something?

Anything aside from that sounds pretty lame/actually invest in the game and have fun.

 

[Kipcom]

who are some of the best characters in this game that are not that hard to use, pretty simple/braindead characters is what im looking for since im primarily a smash 4 player but want to dabble a bit into local pm scene.

Or who is someone with a really strong keep away game?

I found it kinda funny that as a Smash 4 player you're asking for a simple braindead character
I'm not firing shots at the smash 4 community I swear

Seriously though, if by simple and braindead you mean "so easy I can pick him up and win a tournament in the first few tries" then lol good luck with that. You won't be getting any of that in this game.

There's also the fact that even if a character is easy to use in this game, it doesn't mean that they won't struggle against the higher tier characters, meaning you'd still have to put in a lot of work just to win the MU anyway.


You'll get no hoo hahs from this game (Well actually there are some hoo hahs in this game, but they don't dominate the metagame).

 

[Bazkip]

What's up with all these "Who should I play" posts in here all of the sudden. That's not what this thread is for...

 

[MLGF]

What even is this thread for?

 

[Saproling]

What even is this thread for?

Squabbling.

 

[Soft Serve]

What even is this thread for?

complaints about fox
sheilda arguments
Directing every discussion into "bowser is bad"
DK is okay guys I swear
DDD/Zard got nerfed again, K

Circlejerk hugboxes

Abstract nausicca posts

Oracle/DMG/umbreon one-liners

 

[Kipcom]

What even is this thread for?

Masking our salt in huge walls of text

 

[Life]

Masking our salt in huge walls of text

Wait, we're supposed to be masking it?

 

[eideeiit]

complaints about fox
sheilda arguments
Directing every discussion into "bowser is bad"
DK is okay guys I swear
DDD/Zard got nerfed again, K

Circlejerk hugboxes

Abstract nausicca posts

Oracle/DMG/umbreon one-liners

****in game&watch man, cant forget tht prick
also tethers and fatties

 

[NTG]

I think Toon link/link/olimar/samus/diddy have decent keep away games, but in pm, keep away is not the best play style.

Curious given your other opinions in this thread. What is the best play style?

This may or may not be a trick question

 

[Ripple]

the one that wins

 

[Frost | Odds]

Obviously we should give bowser a laser to mitigate this

Don't tempt me.

 

[nimigoha]

Don't tempt me.

Laser? Preposterous...

QuickKlaw on the other hand...

 

[CORY]

ganon wielding ike wielding ragnell, with all of their moves being a combination of the respective characters moves.

chargeable flame choke that you can jump cancel, or attack out of, or just grab as usual.

fair with range the size of the known universe.

upb with ganon throwing ike who throws ragnell, then ganon jumps up to ike who then jumps up to ragnell, with grab boxes on the characters.

sounds fair and balanced. just like fox news.

and to be serious:

i've seen the last set of proposed tier lists people posted having ganon be the highest ranked fattie (even if he's mostly just sitting near the bottom of mid or something). i would have assumed zard would be more universally considered the better fattie, due to speed et al. or more people hopping on the ddd bandwagon because of tourney showings (since ganon is really just a pocket stage stealer for junebug, from what i've seen).

what's the rationale on these placements? i'm legit curious (i personally agree with ganon sitting around lower mid tier at best, but i feel like zard would be slightly better as a character and ddd seems to have a better relevant matchup spread, which would boost him somewhat).

 

[Frost | Odds]

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel that Ganon is a significantly fundamentally stronger character than Zard for a few reasons.

1. Variety of hitbox area coverage. Ganon is able to quickly put a huge hitbox in basically any direction relatively quickly, at pretty much any time. Zard is a lot more limited in terms of the directions he can quickly stick big hitboxes out. Notice how quickly Ganon's uair, nair, and bair come out.

2. Ganon has a larger grounded threat range, and more threatening approaches, due to dash attack. Not much more needs to be said here, ganon's DA is goddamn insane.

3. Consistent grab followups. If Ganon grabs you, you're dead. If Zard grabs you and you DI properly, you're probably fine.

4. Safe landings. Zard is extremely vulnerable in the air (particularly in front of himself), but Ganon can just stick out a fair and become unpunishable by anyone within like 10 feet in front of him. In addition, the mixup of side B right before landing makes his landing game extremely robust and difficult to deal with. This means Ganon has pretty good means of circumventing (or even capitalizing upon) positions that would ordinarily be considered disadvantageous.

5. Usable defensive options. By now, we all know about Zard's rolls. Ganon is also much skinnier and has a far superior spotdodge.

Charizard obviously has strengths too, but IMO they're much more difficult to capitalize upon against strong opponents. He has a very high DD speed, but his dash attack sucks and he has no other means of projecting threat at long range while dashing (obviously this changes when he switches to full run - which opens up RAR nair and crouch ->ftilt/jab). His ftilt and jab are godly, but have high endlag and are very easy to punish if shielded or CCed (except ftilt at max range). Nair's range is huge, but Zard lacks Puff's aerial mobility and is huge and easy to punish if he whiffs.

That's just my opinion as a fairly biased player, though. @Umbreon thinks Charizard is my best character (including my Bowser), so it may be worth taking that with a grain of salt.

 

[PlateProp]

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel that Ganon is a significantly fundamentally stronger character than Zard for a few reasons.

1. Variety of hitbox area coverage. Ganon is able to quickly put a huge hitbox in basically any direction relatively quickly, at pretty much any time. Zard is a lot more limited in terms of the directions he can quickly stick big hitboxes out. Notice how quickly Ganon's uair, nair, and bair come out.

2. Ganon has a larger grounded threat range, and more threatening approaches, due to dash attack. Not much more needs to be said here, ganon's DA is goddamn insane.

3. Consistent grab followups. If Ganon grabs you, you're dead. If Zard grabs you and you DI properly, you're probably fine.

4. Safe landings. Zard is extremely vulnerable in the air (particularly in front of himself), but Ganon can just stick out a fair and become unpunishable by anyone within like 10 feet in front of him. In addition, the mixup of side B right before landing makes his landing game extremely robust and difficult to deal with. This means Ganon has pretty good means of circumventing (or even capitalizing upon) positions that would ordinarily be considered disadvantageous.

5. Usable defensive options. By now, we all know about Zard's rolls. Ganon is also much skinnier and has a far superior spotdodge.

Charizard obviously has strengths too, but IMO they're much more difficult to capitalize upon against strong opponents. He has a very high DD speed, but his dash attack sucks and he has no other means of projecting threat at long range while dashing. His ftilt and jab are godly, but have high endlag and are very easy to punish if shielded or CCed (except ftilt at max range). Nair's range is huge, but Zard lacks Puff's aerial mobility and is huge and easy to punish if he whiffs.

That's just my opinion as a fairly biased player, though. @Umbreon thinks Charizard is my best character (including my Bowser), so it may be worth taking that with a grain of salt.

So basically you should pick up ganon to unleash your true potential

The real question though is Ganon gonna get back those 4 frames for his nair kicks or is pmdt actually gonna nerf Falcon

 

[G13_Flux]

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel that Ganon is a significantly fundamentally stronger character than Zard for a few reasons.

1. Variety of hitbox area coverage. Ganon is able to quickly put a huge hitbox in basically any direction relatively quickly, at pretty much any time. Zard is a lot more limited in terms of the directions he can quickly stick big hitboxes out. Notice how quickly Ganon's uair, nair, and bair come out.

2. Ganon has a larger grounded threat range, and more threatening approaches, due to dash attack. Not much more needs to be said here, ganon's DA is goddamn insane.

3. Consistent grab followups. If Ganon grabs you, you're dead. If Zard grabs you and you DI properly, you're probably fine.

4. Safe landings. Zard is extremely vulnerable in the air (particularly in front of himself), but Ganon can just stick out a fair and become unpunishable by anyone within like 10 feet in front of him. In addition, the mixup of side B right before landing makes his landing game extremely robust and difficult to deal with. This means Ganon has pretty good means of circumventing (or even capitalizing upon) positions that would ordinarily be considered disadvantageous.

5. Usable defensive options. By now, we all know about Zard's rolls. Ganon is also much skinnier and has a far superior spotdodge.

Charizard obviously has strengths too, but IMO they're much more difficult to capitalize upon against strong opponents. He has a very high DD speed, but his dash attack sucks and he has no other means of projecting threat at long range while dashing. His ftilt and jab are godly, but have high endlag and are very easy to punish if shielded or CCed (except ftilt at max range). Nair's range is huge, but Zard lacks Puff's aerial mobility and is huge and easy to punish if he whiffs.

That's just my opinion as a fairly biased player, though. @Umbreon thinks Charizard is my best character (including my Bowser), so it may be worth taking that with a grain of salt.

I will agree mostly with you on everything except for your second point about approaching. while ganon does have some good space he can cover with things like dash attack, ftilt, spaced bairs, etc., zard generally benefits from attacks with a very similar amount of range, if not more. things like ftilt and dtilt easily compare in range to ganons attacks, and arguably have more reward. zard also has a significantly more rewarding, and larger jab (bassically shieks ftilt, as we know). he also has a much larger grab range, stuck onto a character with a top 5 fastest fastest running speed in the game. zards dash attack also covers decent space as a result, and gets him pretty good reward. ganons neutral doesnt have much to combat a defensive opponent. he does have a very good dash attack, and ways to at least keep himself safe on shield (and maybe sometimes mix up with side b) but he still has to play it very patiently and be extremely opportunistic to get his conversion. zard has a lot more attacks and attributes that are better suited to getting conversions from neutral, as well as putting the pressure on, imo.

ganon generally does have better defensive options though, and has generally higher KB attacks, as well as damage output. once ganon gets his coversion, i feel his punish game is more brutal than zards, and he has more attacks to secure the kill quickly, as well as arguably better edge guard options.

i also feel that ganons MU spread is a bit more smoother than zards, who has what seems to be some MUs on the far rougher side with projectile heavy characters.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

One note on Zard's dash speed. While it is fast and useful, I don't think it is that big of a plus. If he had a useable dash speed, but of course he flails his tail around, nullifying a lot of its potential use.

 

[Deleted member]

That's just my opinion as a fairly biased player, though. @Umbreon thinks Charizard is my best character (including my Bowser), so it may be worth taking that with a grain of salt.

you and i just see the game quite differently in a lot of ways. your bowser and zard are equally good but you go on tilt with bowser way too fast when you get into your own head. lots of players do this including me, but decidedly not as fast or obviously. the end result is that i would expect you to perform better as zard in a real event.

i think ganon and zard are about equally good or maybe zard is slightly better but its way less obvious how to make him good. zard has a lot going for him and is just really under explored atm. even if his meta develops, i still think he'll end up better than ganon slightly

 

[Life]

So, uh, Squirtle, guys.

Jewchainz just beat Jaden LOL

 

[Frost | Odds]

Does Jaden have a history of adapting poorly to PM-specific matchups?

 

[Life]

Does Jaden have a history of adapting poorly to PM-specific matchups?

Commentators claimed so. I wouldn't know. People think Peach and Marth are hard for Squirtle (I don't really agree but that's part of the reason I thought it was worth bringing up--clearly it's not that simple).

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I assume JewChainz isn't as Amish as everyone makes him out to be, right? Otherwise that's an impressive win, without the absurd kill power in fthrow rhus and bubble tech chases (oh pardon me, nobody has gotten there yet, that's my pie in the sky dream).

 

[Life]

He was showing much more technical ability than the last time I saw him play, not that that says much compared to what he used to be LOL. I'm sure the vods will be up and someone will link it in the slack when that happens?

EDIT: So Wolf has a hitbox at the end of his forward air that can hit people directly behind him. It goes into the z-axis, though, so most characters can't be hit by it.

Except Bowser and possibly other fatties, who are literally so big that Wolf's fair's z-axis hitbox still reaches them.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Curious given your other opinions in this thread. What is the best play style?

This may or may not be a trick question

I think A rush down style that utilizes Item use (peach, diddy, rob, olimar, link, Toon link, ect) to make safe hit boxes to cover your Start up or End lag is best while keeping your movement going.

But the best character is Fox in my opinion which is weird because he doesnt match the style i think is best AND the reason for this is because he can be used in any style or any fasion.

You need to be aggressive? Fox can rush down and pressure all day.
You need to evade? Fox can play tag with the best of them.
You need to camp? Fox can do this.
I am sure i can think of more But fox has the tools to do just about anything.

I will agree mostly with you on everything except for your second point about approaching. while ganon does have some good space he can cover with things like dash attack, ftilt, spaced bairs, etc., zard generally benefits from attacks with a very similar amount of range, if not more. things like ftilt and dtilt easily compare in range to ganons attacks, and arguably have more reward. zard also has a significantly more rewarding, and larger jab (bassically shieks ftilt, as we know). he also has a much larger grab range, stuck onto a character with a top 5 fastest fastest running speed in the game. zards dash attack also covers decent space as a result, and gets him pretty good reward. ganons neutral doesnt have much to combat a defensive opponent. he does have a very good dash attack, and ways to at least keep himself safe on shield (and maybe sometimes mix up with side b) but he still has to play it very patiently and be extremely opportunistic to get his conversion. zard has a lot more attacks and attributes that are better suited to getting conversions from neutral, as well as putting the pressure on, imo.

ganon generally does have better defensive options though, and has generally higher KB attacks, as well as damage output. once ganon gets his coversion, i feel his punish game is more brutal than zards, and he has more attacks to secure the kill quickly, as well as arguably better edge guard options.

i also feel that ganons MU spread is a bit more smoother than zards, who has what seems to be some MUs on the far rougher side with projectile heavy characters.

I really really dont think Ganon is a fatties. (maybe a semi fatty)
He is Tall But his is for sure Not as wide as The rest of the fatties.

 

[G13_Flux]

I think A rush down style that utilizes Item use (peach, diddy, rob, olimar, link, Toon link, ect) to make safe hit boxes to cover your Start up or End lag is best while keeping your movement going.

But the best character is Fox in my opinion which is weird because he doesnt match the style i think is best AND the reason for this is because he can be used in any style or any fasion.

You need to be aggressive? Fox can rush down and pressure all day.
You need to evade? Fox can play tag with the best of them.
You need to camp? Fox can do this.
I am sure i can think of more But fox has the tools to do just about anything.




I really really dont think Ganon is a fatties. (maybe a semi fatty)
He is Tall But his is for sure Not as wide as The rest of the fatties.

i never said he was a fatty though

 

[Lunchmanalchemist]

NOOB ALERT!

Are there any characters in the current version of Project M that are unviable? Right now, I'm really enjoying Falco mainly because of how hard he is to master, and I'm wondering if I should pick up a secondary for whatever bad matchups he may have. Thanks in advance!

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Falco doesn't really have bad match ups, but if you're a noob, I'd be playing around with other characters anyways, not because you want to cover match ups, but just to explore the game. Also, learning other characters gives you new ideas that work with Falco too, so you can broaden your understanding of the game this way.

As for unviable characters, I wouldn't say any characters are straight up unviable, although some people would disagree with me (and might say Bowser for example).

 

[Lunchmanalchemist]

Falco doesn't really have bad match ups, but if you're a noob, I'd be playing around with other characters anyways, not because you want to cover match ups, but just to explore the game. Also, learning other characters gives you new ideas that work with Falco too, so you can broaden your understanding of the game this way.

As for unviable characters, I wouldn't say any characters are straight up unviable, although some people would disagree with me (and might say Bowser for example).

Why would Bowser be considered terrible? I know, I'm a n00b lol

 

[_Chrome]

Why would Bowser be considered terrible? I know, I'm a n00b lol

All you have to do is look at the last month's worth of discussion to find out why Bowser is "Bowser Bad". It's mostly because he is easy to land a hit on in the neutral game (where neither player is comboing the other) and he is really easy to combo. He is also on the slower end of the cast, so he can have a hard time being aggressive and hitting another player to lead into a combo, and ultimately, a KO.

Some really well-designed and fun characters to play that I can think of off of the top of my head are Meta Knight (my main; obviously I'll vouch for him), Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, and Mewtwo. If you're up for it, Wolf is a good challenge and really worth it fun-wise and competitive-wise.

Characters like Mario, Link and Kirby are easy to pick up and can net you results early on in your development as well. If you've toyed around with a bunch of characters in other Smash/fighting games, you can probably figure out what kind of playstyle you like. You don't really need to worry about the tier list as much in this game, since all of us have been unable to form an opinion on it (which isn't helped by continually talking about Bowser *ahem*).

Oh yeah, and Donkey Kong is pretty good. Come at me, ladies and gentleman.

P.S. Let's not talk about Donkey Kong's viability again. How about we actually be productive and talk about another character's viability. We've covered the fatties like a bajillion times over.

 

[NTG]

I think A rush down style that utilizes Item use (peach, diddy, rob, olimar, link, Toon link, ect) to make safe hit boxes to cover your Start up or End lag is best while keeping your movement going.

But the best character is Fox in my opinion which is weird because he doesnt match the style i think is best AND the reason for this is because he can be used in any style or any fasion.

You need to be aggressive? Fox can rush down and pressure all day.
You need to evade? Fox can play tag with the best of them.
You need to camp? Fox can do this.
I am sure i can think of more But fox has the tools to do just about anything.

My bad, I figured since Ripple already spoiled the joke you wouldn't reply. Think of the game in less narrow terms of playstyle and more like control and conditioning

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

better

Wait how did I quote this

Smashboards wtf

Prof is awesome and Snake is bad

No really he's like above average at best

Have you tried playing Snake

It's like trying to do brain surgery with a crane

 

[nimigoha]

Incredibly vitriolic reddit thread on Peach's Dsmash. Both sides using awful language against the other, no one offered a reasonable alternative, no one having an actual discussion.

Would people have a problem if it was changed so that single hit Dsmash was completely unchanged (knockback and % all kept the same) and the other hits having reduced % but compensated knockback? Like if you CC all the hits you still get flung as far but take 30% instead of 65%, for example.

Would people see this as changing something for the sake of changing it? Would it be harming Peach?

Just trying to gauge opinions on this, figure it's a pretty reasonable group of people.

 

[shairn]

Mfw Peach dsmash is better than Bowser's