Tier List Speculation

[Nausicaa]

Personally, I like where Pit is in this patch and would enjoy more characters being like him.
I'm just nuts though.
PM Bamesy.1 would be a tweakpile harder than all patches to-date, and almost entirely nerfs in the light of 2.1 Ike to 2.5 Ike. Basically just making things very diverse WITHIN themselves, and the concept of a move having 'singular' properties would be applied to them very specifically.

Screw Wario's U-Tilt and stuff like that. (<I'd keep it because it's quirky and works well with the move but too many things lean this way that really shouldn't in smash in general)
lul

Pit stuff...
Falling out of hit-boxes is stupid, but when you have to do weird **** to beat opponents on TOP of playing well in a conventional way, all by default of the match-up, then that's the coolest Smash possible.

Indirectly this is exactly what everyone always talks about and wants anyway, so it's nothing new.
I just like to look specifically AT this storm of a game, rather than the elements that make up that crazy weather.
ifyouknowwhatimean

 

[DrinkingFood]

Any of those characters is fine, Ganon is iffy, it's unlikely that he's as viable as those other characters are in the face of such a fast/projectile heavy cast of characters

 

[Jamble]

Personally of that list I see a ton of potential in Wolf as far as brawl characters. Roy is a good starting point if you're looking for Melee veterans that have had some positive changes made to both their viability and overall "feel."

 

[Player -0]

When Ganons start to use Boost Pivot grabs everyone will cry.

Grabbing the center of BF from the ledge.

I need to check how long Ganon is invincible for that.

Like seriously it's really dumb though. Boost pivot grabs. Ganon has grabboxes in his back for a reason.

And it's not because Sakurai decided to put them there.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

"ifyouknowwhatimean"

Nausicaa

I dont think anybody does. #jokes

If you like pissing people off at the character select screen, main Squirtle. Lots of salt at this character and he's super fun to play.

 

[Jamble]

On the salt note, Captain Falcon can taunt cancel "show me yo moves." 'Nuff said.

 

[Skelterai]

So who else do you guys think needs a little refining? I think more that we've discussed Pit, What about Jigglypuff? D3? Sonic? Olimar?

 

[Jamble]

I think Bowser is a notable example. It's not a complaint about bowser being bad from me, it's more that his moveset doesn't really feel cohesive, or work together in any notable way. Maybe it's just that linking moves is not his style, but he just doesn't feel fluid as a character. He relies too heavily on a small handful of moves and too little on the rest of his set which makes him feel a little stale. I also think his fire breath either needs a replacement move or an overhaul in some way, just because it doesn't feel like it serves a great purpose in his arsenal.

I also think it's a major problem that Bowser's safest way to get out of the air, where he's a sitting duck puts a fatty with horrible recovery at the ledge.

 

[Strong Badam]

Speaking of which, Strong Badam , are you planning to update/make a tier list? I think you said you were planning on it post Paragon LA but it didn't save and you didn't end up making it (or you did and I am dumb). Thoughts on making one post-Tipped Off 11?

I could, but to be honest I'm pretty sick of talking/thinking about how good characters are. I do it enough in the PMDT. I'd rather talk about what players could be doing better to further the meta with their characters. That's why I don't post here very much anymore.

 

[_Chrome]

Please let's not talk about Bowser, I've had enough talk about him to last the rest of the year/until the next patch comes out. Sonic really doesn't need to be fixed. He's about average and has a rewarding and fun playstyle with a flat match-up spread. He has clear weaknesses and strengths. He's well-designed and exciting to watch. You can't touch him because you're too slow.

The Ooze on the other hand needs something else. I find him un-fun to play against he isn't particularly strong either (that's quite the euphemism). Olimar has a jank grab and a ****ty recovery. I don't play the character, but I would say those ought to be changed. Jigglypuff, despite little representation is fine. I'm tired of seeing people saying "Puff needs buffs". Puff is still damn good, at least competitive. Why would we change that when her character model clearly worked in Melee? I hate Puff, but even I have to admit that changing her would be dumb at this point (especially since I know people want her to get buffs, mostly in the form of useful special moves). She is fine. Problem solved, next caller.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I could, but to be honest I'm pretty sick of talking/thinking about how good characters are. I do it enough in the PMDT. I'd rather talk about what players could be doing better to further the meta with their characters. That's why I don't post here very much anymore.

Fair enough. I just thought about it and figured I'd ask.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

T tasteless gentleman You're just restating **** thats been said many times before you even got here don't dredge up old conversations nobody wants when you never have anything to add besides "Bowser loses"

I was not talking about bowser though. We were not on the topic of bowser. You just brought up bowser. There is no more need to talk about bowser. I was talking about GnW animations. I said bowser can bucket brake with bowser bomb and no one else can. I dont think that is me saying that he sucks. Yes he sucks, but we crossed that bridge and all came to an agreement so i dropped that discussion.

Can we talk about how Game and watches animations dont match his hitboxes?

Fsmash is absolutely decieving along with many others moves.
Bucket braking makes no sense either and i dont think any character has this besides bowsers Down B (which you obviously can't employ).

This character is not OP and i still have yet to lose to a GnW but something about it irks me how his animations are weird.

Please let's not talk about Bowser, I've had enough talk about him to last the rest of the year/until the next patch comes out. Sonic really doesn't need to be fixed. He's about average and has a rewarding and fun playstyle with a flat match-up spread. He has clear weaknesses and strengths. He's well-designed and exciting to watch. You can't touch him because you're too slow.

The Ooze on the other hand needs something else. I find him un-fun to play against he isn't particularly strong either (that's quite the euphemism). Olimar has a jank grab and a ****ty recovery. I don't play the character, but I would say those ought to be changed. Jigglypuff, despite little representation is fine. I'm tired of seeing people saying "Puff needs buffs". Puff is still damn good, at least competitive. Why would we change that when her character model clearly worked in Melee? I hate Puff, but even I have to admit that changing her would be dumb at this point (especially since I know people want her to get buffs, mostly in the form of useful special moves). She is fine. Problem solved, next caller.

Who is the Ooze?

Olimars grabs have to be bugs, i see no reason that pulling hit boxes into my face would be intentional or the other 4 things wrong with his grab.

1. it clips through the opponent not grabbing them
2. it pulls hit boxes into you
3. your opponent can break out before you get a chance to throw
4. your opponent can break out leaving you in animation (melee kirby anyone)
5. No priority and since it pulls hitboxs you really notice this.

 

[Ripple]

The ooze is DDD.

For once if like to see a whole page about what people's opinion on him is and what people think he needs and didn't need. Something in depth.

Also, bowser should have hitboxes on his tech rolls. Think about it

 

[Player -0]

Nah. Just make Bowser's tech rolls cancelable by Up B.

I'm still salty about no pink color for ZSS as new skin. The red one doesn't look really good either, thoughts?

 

[Life]

I mean I thought D3 was bad, and then Ripple goes and places top whatever at Tipped Off.

Clearly there's something I'm missing. Matchup inexperience? Am I underestimating D3 punishes? Did you not run into D3's hardest matchups?

 

[AceGamer]

The red isn't the best of her new palettes but I like it and as for D3 a better shield for one imo, he has to angle that thing like he's blocking highs, lows and overhead attacks lol.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I think the red alt is awesome. Red + white is kreyy

 

[Frost | Odds]

I could, but to be honest I'm pretty sick of talking/thinking about how good characters are. I do it enough in the PMDT. I'd rather talk about what players could be doing better to further the meta with their characters. That's why I don't post here very much anymore.

Yeah, it used to confuse me why DT members didn't post much in here.

Now it's like

"Hey you spend all your free time on smashmods arguing about balancing characters. You know what sounds fun? Checking out smashboards and seeing what's new in the meta. Oh wait, it's just a bunch more people arguing about balance, but many of them are about 10% as informed as the guys you usually argue with"

There's still a few super helpful and insightful posts in here, but it's a bit discouraging to continually come in and find almost nothing but the same complaints, and no meta developments whatsoever. So here's some homework: all y'all go pick up secondary Pits (or Bowsers or whatever other low tier characters) for me, and tell me about the cool combos and **** you can find.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

When Ganons start to use Boost Pivot grabs everyone will cry.

Grabbing the center of BF from the ledge.

I need to check how long Ganon is invincible for that.

Like seriously it's really dumb though. Boost pivot grabs. Ganon has grabboxes in his back for a reason.

And it's not because Sakurai decided to put them there.

My training partner uses this and it's disgusting, he can be dash dancing and stuff aproaches with it. Cross up shields fairly safely, and it's huge.

 

[Spralwers]

When Ganons start to use Boost Pivot grabs everyone will cry.

Grabbing the center of BF from the ledge.

I need to check how long Ganon is invincible for that.

Like seriously it's really dumb though. Boost pivot grabs. Ganon has grabboxes in his back for a reason.

And it's not because Sakurai decided to put them there.

I've tried boost grabbing and wasn't really impressed by it, I've tried pivot grabs and it really only seemed to be good for the trololol becaue of how silly Ganon looks when he does it, but I never thought to try out boost pivot grabbing. If it makes his DD and ledge get up actually threatening it'll eventually be a BnB to his optimal gameplay.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Nah. Just make Bowser's tech rolls cancelable by Up B.

I'm still salty about no pink color for ZSS as new skin. The red one doesn't look really good either, thoughts?

I think bowser's tech rolls are still kinda bad, but they are for sure better than 3.5. Not sure about adding "jank" to them though.

Also i think samus needs a hot outfit, why not? Every other fighting game does it. lol.

Also how does Dedede approach a projectile heavy character on say... poke stadium or FD? Maybe thats holding him back? I walled out a dedede a few days ago with just a good counter pick of olimar on FD. Like made him forfeit type of a wall out.

 

[Player -0]

Whaat?

The red white looks so bad though.

What you guys thinking

 

[JOE!]

The red and white looks cool, what do you mean?

 

[Warzenschwein]

pikachu doesn't even have a cool shiny form, what do you mice know about aesthetics

 

[Player -0]

I have no clue what you're talking about. Anyone who wears a Pika outfit is obviously fashionable.

 

[eideeiit]

I think bowser's tech rolls are still kinda bad, but they are for sure better than 3.5. Not sure about adding "jank" to them though.

Also i think samus needs a hot outfit, why not? Every other fighting game does it. lol.

Also how does Dedede approach a projectile heavy character on say... poke stadium or FD? Maybe thats holding him back? I walled out a dedede a few days ago with just a good counter pick of olimar on FD. Like made him forfeit type of a wall out.

Dude, you need to seriously work on your reading comprehension. You've mistaken a joke for an actual opinion for like 3 pages in a row now. It can be tough, yea and I've made that mistake too but come on.

Or then I have bad reading comprehension and you're just throwing out this tech roll thing cause someone mentioned it?

But I honestly doubt it, considering your earlier posts.

Also for productiveness's sake, screenshots of Ganon after rolling at the ledge, during a boost pivot grab done on f4 of dash and f2 of dash attack and pivoted on f2 of the boost grab.

idk if I did this right.

My initial impression is that this gives his grab some disjoint and makes it low enough to catch duckers.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I was under the impression it was after a ledge dash. Was it? Otherwise, how would it reach "the middle of Battlefield".

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Dude, you need to seriously work on your reading comprehension. You've mistaken a joke for an actual opinion for like 3 pages in a row now. It can be tough, yea and I've made that mistake too but come on.

Or then I have bad reading comprehension and you're just throwing out this tech roll thing cause someone mentioned it?

But I honestly doubt it, considering your earlier posts.

Also for productiveness's sake, screenshots of Ganon after rolling at the ledge, during a boost pivot grab done on f4 of dash and f2 of dash attack and pivoted on f2 of the boost grab.

idk if I did this right.

My initial impression is that this gives his grab some disjoint and makes it low enough to catch duckers.

Are you refering to the bowser tech thing? I was serious when i said it needs to be better, certain characters can do a degenerate chain grab based off tech reactios because his rolls are too slow or his landing lag is too slow (one of pika's throws takes advantage of this) but i dont think it should do weird stuff.

OR

Were you refering to the dedede part?

OR

How about you go to pm social page to post jokes so people dont get confused. Assume people are stupid and take everything seriously (because i am pretty stupid when it comes to deciphering the context of words on a screen.

 

[Ripple]

It's like tasteless is Drax from GotG.

" nothing goes over my head.... My reactions are too good "

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I could, but to be honest I'm pretty sick of talking/thinking about how good characters are. I do it enough in the PMDT. I'd rather talk about what players could be doing better to further the meta with their characters. That's why I don't post here very much anymore.

Neat so does that mean we are finally getting proactive with what our characters can do instead of complaining about what they can't. Will just leave the blah blah balance stuff to the informed and work with what i got.

That's good cause I was working on upgrading some tech for the diddy board, and wanted to know if there was a thorough ganon guide because... all the other diddy's are doing it and I guess it's a thing. Was fun swapping tech at tipped off 11.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Neat so does that mean we are finally getting proactive with what our characters can do instead of complaining about what they can't. Will just leave the blah blah balance stuff to the informed and work with what i got.

That sounds perfect.

I'd like to keep developing Bowser's 3.6 meta on my own, but my plate is full enough with working on him (and others) for future versions. I'm sure the rest of the DT is in similar situations. We need you guys to do that for him, and other characters.

I don't think it's a breach of confidentiality to state that for us, maintaining current gameplay/interactions between characters wherever possible is a huge priority between patches. Try not to worry about stuff you come up with (barring possibly extremely niche/buggy tech stuff) becoming obsolete with patch changes: 99% of the time it'll still be applicable in some fashion. The complacent attitude of just waiting for the DT to swoop in and change everything isn't helpful to anybody.

It's not a coincidence that the lineup of top players doesn't really change much between patches, except for the occasional Salty Sallies who quit the game because their top tier character got minor adjustments. See: Junebug dominating everything despite Diddy being completely reworked and nerfed pretty hard from 3.0->3.6.

I think Pit is kinda weak right now, but I'm continually working on improving my own Pit in an attempt to prove myself wrong. I wish more people would do the same with characters that are perceived as bad - even if he or she does turn out to be weaker than the norm, you bet your ass that a lot more is possible than you think. Bowser is undeniably pretty weak, but I still sometimes pick him in tournament because my personal skill level with him pushes him past what I can reliably do with other characters in many situations.

It may come as a shock, but the DT is pretty damn aware of what's weak -- but because we have a pretty limited base of playtesters, we may not always be aware of new techniques and options that put spit and polish on the metagames of currently underdeveloped characters. If you guys want to help with the development process, telling us what to do and/or harping on the negative isn't productive. Developing the metagame is.

I do realize that I was guilty of this myself before entering the team. That's why I'm posting this PSA - as someone who's been on both sides of the coin, I understand where you guys are coming from, but pls.

 

[CORY]

Neat so does that mean we are finally getting proactive with what our characters can do instead of complaining about what they can't. Will just leave the blah blah balance stuff to the informed and work with what i got.

That's good cause I was working on upgrading some tech for the diddy board, and wanted to know if there was a thorough ganon guide because... all the other diddy's are doing it and I guess it's a thing. Was fun swapping tech at tipped off 11.

There's not a real good ganon guide, just a bunch of us all sharing what we know with everyone who asks. I've thought about making more if a consolidation of everything we've pulled together, less of a guide, but I haven't had a lot of time lately so that's been back burnered.

 

[Soft Serve]

The ooze is DDD.

For once if like to see a whole page about what people's opinion on him is and what people think he needs and didn't need. Something in depth.

Also, bowser should have hitboxes on his tech rolls. Think about it

I'd give ddd cool things do he doesn't have to just be flappy bird>throw you off stage the character
Like make inhale suck better, and make the turn around animation faster, and make it so if they hold in its a guarenteed fair, so you have a di mixup instead of just positional advantage.
Buff waddle dees/doo, make them shoot beams significantly faster, etc. Make some cool interactions with inhaling a waddle instead of just getting punished for it. More niche options with the tools he has. Maybe make waddles he hits with his own moves travel with hitboxes, like characters when thrown? That could get obnoxious to recover against.

Faster ftilt so it's harder power shield it on reaction, by like 2-3 frames.
Better item pick up range and throw frame data.

 

[Jamble]

@Odds_ I'm absolutely sure I'm guilty of exactly what you're talking about, and I actually think you're right as far as people leaning too heavily on the DT for changes instead of trying to develop characters more. I'm kind of tempted to play around a bit more with Bowser myself on the side of my Samus game a bit.

I also think that the more people truly develop characters to their potential, the better suggestions we can give instead of playing Nerf Tennis on the forums.

 

[JOE!]

He should heal % back for eating his own minions

 

[eideeiit]

Ganon boost pivot grab after ledgedash. Idk what Ganon's quickest/most reaching way off the ledge is tho. This one had 13 invulnerable frames. Also the DA is done on the 4th frame of dash and grab on 2nd frame af DA.

 

[steelguttey]

Olimar?

olimar is in a pretty good spot right now he doesnt really need a lot of changes other than bugfixes. having a ****ty recovery is fine if his onstage game is that good.

 

[JesteRace]

Hey, guys! How about another under-informed tier list from a random nobody? I can feel the excitement.

Loosely ordered, of course.

A+ Tier


A Tier


A- Tier


B Tier


C Tier


D Tier

 

[nimigoha]

Incredibly uninformed. Many flaws. Not worth derailing the current discussion to address this tier list.

 

[Soft Serve]

Tier lists don't matter because we all ****ing suck