Tier List Speculation

[Searing_Sorrow]

Nope, I saw them playing on the same setup that I played Ripple on, so no recording. :/

Also, Ripple is amazing. When I played him, it was pretty much down to the wire last games (both games being last stock).
He plays DDD in such a different way from Smur. It's so much more patient and methodical. Can't even hate on it. I'll get him next time!


A lot of us feel this way, tbh.
I was talking to MrLz about what he thinks is going to happen to GnW, and we both agreed that some animation changes would be necessary.

I think a couple hitboxes need to be changed too, not sure what he thinks about GnW's hitboxes, though. I don't really like dtilt having such a huge, surrounding hitbox, and for his nair I don't like the idea of his entire body being just as strong as the parachute.

Yea they play mad different, but playing smur so much makes it to where after ddd hits 35% he is auto at 100% wish we had time to finish friendlies, I like the chess like matches. After playing mr. Lz for a while, literally the only animation that was throwing off my punish timing was the ground hit of the key. With good d.i most of g&w combos get cut off around 40% which is kind of avg on diddy. Don't really get all the hate, a few friendlies and knowing when certain strings are coming helps... just don't play him on fod unless your like ganon or someone -.- I saved a life today by saying this.

 

[Farquaad]

I did not play Pit, but Sharkz went pit a few times in the tourney. Even took a game off of esam's samus (at least I think that was with Pit lol)

He actually took the set over ESAM. Beat Samus with both Ice Climbers and Pit, neither of which are favourable matchups. Pit is an awkward character that needs refining in a lot of aspects of his toolkit, but he's not garbage like most here seem to think. Sharkz gets consistent (and even better than at TO) results with that Pit.

 

[Player -0]

Shout outs to Me. Lz's option coverage and options though.

Watched some stuff and it was pretty clean at times.

Edit - Farquaad Some of the Pits think Samus is + for Pit. I think it sucks with proper counterplay but shrug.

 

[Ripple]

Guys please, I'm not amazing, DDD is broken. Why do you think I wore the "fix me" tag?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Yeah lets talk about this and restate more **** thats already been said obviously not enough times.

I never saw your opinion on it, but thanks for the input it was very useful and contributed to the conversation.

But for real, please tell me your opinion on it?
Marios cape and elbow too while we are at it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Snake is dumb and I don't have better fundamentals than my opponents so it's the only way I'm managing to win.

Cheater robbed me of like $900 with ur bad fundamentals smh

 

[Foo]

Also, Foo , that wasn't a shot at me saying DK is better than people think, right? I don't think it was, but I thought I'd ask anyways.

No, not at all. He was just the first character that popped into my head that was almost unanimously sub-par. That hypothetical wasn't pointed at any particular post.

 

[Boiko]

Edit - Farquaad Some of the Pits think Samus is + for Pit. I think it sucks with proper counterplay but shrug.

I think that Samus beats Pit pretty hard.

 

[CORY]

Guys please, I'm not amazing, DDD is broken. Why do you think I wore the "fix me" tag?

Because you're promoting spaying and neutering of ddd mains?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Because you're promoting spaying and neutering of ddd mains?

DDD really doesnt need any nerfs lol. Hes large, that is enough of a disadvantage in my eyes for any "fattie"

I think that Samus beats Pit pretty hard.

That match up is absolutely crazy, even if pit blocks a missle, hes stuck in animation for so long. Samus crushes pits recovery. Samus just neutralizes everything about pit with just simple platform cancels. Ironically i have better luck with bowser dealing with samus that i ever did with my 3.02 pit lol

 

[CORY]

DDD really doesnt need any nerfs lol. Hes large, that is enough of a disadvantage in my eyes for any "fattie"

whooooooooooooosh

 

[Farquaad]

DDD really doesnt need any nerfs lol. Hes large, that is enough of a disadvantage in my eyes for any "fattie"

~~~~~~~>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDIT:

whooooooooooooosh

damn

 

[Chevy]

Haven't watched the set, but I'm guessing Sharkz vs. ESAM was probably the highest level that matchup has ever been played at. Considering the lack of both character's representation I think it's silly to commit to hard opinions. That said it's probably like 80-20 Pit favor Samus sucks etc.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

whooooooooooooosh

Did i miss a joke? My B

Haven't watched the set, but I'm guessing Sharkz vs. ESAM was probably the highest level that matchup has ever been played at. Considering the lack of both character's representation I think it's silly to commit to hard opinions. That said it's probably like 80-20 Pit favor Samus sucks etc.

How is it 80-20 in pits favour? Samus sucks but can stuff most approaches that pit can do.

 

[Boiko]

Haven't watched the set, but I'm guessing Sharkz vs. ESAM was probably the highest level that matchup has ever been played at. Considering the lack of both character's representation I think it's silly to commit to hard opinions. That said it's probably like 80-20 Pit favor Samus sucks etc.

I mean, I play it with Gallo pretty often. Not saying I'm on the same level as Esam, but I probably have a better understanding of the MU than him and how to play it.

 

[Bazkip]

he's not garbage like most here seem to think

What? All the posts I've seen here about Pit have talked about how he's alright but needs tweaking to make things work properly, which is...exactly the same as you described.

 

[AceGamer]

A few people did say Pit was crap in here but most of the "Pit sucks" talk I've heard was in stream chats

 

[Frost | Odds]

Pit's not garbage. He's more like your parents' orange-and-green leather couch from the 70's. There's not much technically wrong with it and it's pretty comfy, but it might need a bit of a makeover to fit in with the rest of your decor.

 

[MLGF]

Are you saying Pit needs to be more pointlessly flashy?
Because that's what I want to think you're saying.
Let's do it.
Give Pit that Strider "chink" sound on all of his attacks

 

[Zach777]

Pit's nair will shine with the same light that happens when his arrow connects. If Pit lands the second hit of fsmash, he says "your not ready yet" like his taunt.

 

[Life]

I've said elsewhere that Pit isn't so much bad as he is exhausting to play. I don't think he has any straight-up worthless matchups like Bowser does, so he has that going for him. But it feels like he doesn't win very many either. Almost all of them are evenish to slightly bad.

I've said before that I consider PM to have three broad tiers: characters that have no awful matchups, characters that have only obscure awful matchups, and characters that have enough awful matchups that they're debilitated by them and should not be expected to win a large tournament. (In other words, I place a heavy weight on not getting "hard countered." That phrase means different things to different people, but whatever.)

Pit's definitely in the first or second group. But he also lacks any overpowering matchups, so there are a lot of cases where characters will have serious problem matchups--and thus be below Pit on my scale--but will also have a bunch of matchups where they're better than Pit, even versus common characters like Fox. Meanwhile, Pit's barely winning uphill battle after uphill battle in order to keep going through bracket. Eventually that'll catch up with you.

I'm one of those "Pit beats Samus" people, which is why I'm very interested in the Sharkz-ESAM match because I wanna see if ESAM was just playing the matchup wrong--which would mean this doesn't count as proof--or if Sharkz was playing it the way I thought it was supposed to be played--which would suggest I'm at least onto something.

Speaking of, TO11 matches are going up on MusicCitySmash on YT right now btw.

 

[PlateProp]

Pit's not garbage. He's more like your parents' orange-and-green leather couch from the 70's. There's not much technically wrong with it and it's pretty comfy, but it might need a bit of a makeover to fit in with the rest of your decor.

3.25 pit when

Also does anyone know why momentum is so damn weird with Pit's up b? Half the time when I reverse it pit just continues if I hadnt and the only way I know I did is that he turns in the opposite direction when it's done

 

[Life]

3.25 pit when

Also does anyone know why momentum is so damn weird with Pit's up b? Half the time when I reverse it pit just continues if I hadnt and the only way I know I did is that he turns in the opposite direction when it's done

That's probably an angled upB akin to Marth reverse upB. Getting the actual b-reverse on upBs is surprisingly tricky when that's in play.

 

[nimigoha]

Can Pit's Bthrow not be so weird. Knocks down at 38%.

Marth's Bthrow knocks down at 0%. Give me that. That's the kind of positional throw I want for Pit.

Also his Up B seems like the kind of Up B that would normally have intangibility on startup like Charizard or Samus... If he's going to have a crappy jumpsquat at least give him an Up B that compensates OOS.

Also how is Nair any good? If you land before the final hit you get punished. In the air you have 19 frames before you can act after the last hitbox. I just don'

 

[Life]

Nair is the "I want to throw out a hitbox in the space in front of me but I'm not sure exactly where you're going to be in the next quarter second" move. It's also a very easy way to cross up versus shield or CC. Would it be nice to have a stronger Nair? Of course. Is that what Pit needs? I'm not convinced.

I also did a huge writeup on why it'd be more appropriate to buff fthrow than buff bthrow a while back. Basically, Pit's playstyle right now is heavily based on positional advantage (particularly juggling and edgeguarding); giving fthrow more knockback allows Pit to set up those situations more easily and also gives him better kill/edgeguard potential against opponents who are at the edge, i.e. it lets Pit convert positional advantage into a kill more easily. He already sort of has it since he can DI mixup with dthrow->whatever in this situation, but cementing it with a little extra knockback would help (even on the worst possible DI, fthrow doesn't kill outright until moderately late percents).

Conversely, since bthrows are generally at their best when you grab someone out of *their* positional advantage, Pit doesn't really need a specially good one. Bthrow is still useful in odd situations like the classic Smashville platform bthrow, or in various doubles situations where the direction you throw someone becomes even more important.

More to the point: dthrow does everything you want bthrow to do and more, except send people behind Pit, which is what bthrow already does.

 

[Saproling]

I never saw your opinion on it, but thanks for the input it was very useful and contributed to the conversation.

But for real, please tell me your opinion on it?
Marios cape and elbow too while we are at it.

I don't have anything to say about G&W I don't have all that much experience with playing against him in the first place let alone an actually good one.So why should I try and suggest **** when there are other more suited to handling him I think he needs minor nerfs but my opinion doesn't matter.

 

[nimigoha]

Nair is the "I want to throw out a hitbox in the space of me but I'm not sure exactly where you're going to be in the next quarter second" move. It's also a very easy way to cross up versus shield or CC. Would it be nice to have a stronger Nair? Of course. Is that what Pit needs? I'm not convinced.

I also did a huge writeup on why it'd be more appropriate to buff fthrow than buff bthrow a while back. Basically, Pit's playstyle right now is heavily based on positional advantage (particularly juggling and edgeguarding); giving fthrow more knockback allows Pit to set up those situations more easily and also gives him better kill/edgeguard potential against opponents who are at the edge, i.e. it lets Pit convert positional advantage into a kill more easily. He already sort of has it since he can DI mixup with dthrow->whatever in this situation, but cementing it with a little extra knockback would help (even on the worst possible DI, fthrow doesn't kill outright until moderately late percents).

Conversely, since bthrows are generally at their best when you grab someone out of *their* positional advantage, Pit doesn't really need a specially good one. Bthrow is still useful in odd situations like the classic Smashville platform bthrow, or in various doubles situations where the direction you throw someone becomes even more important.

More to the point: dthrow does everything you want bthrow to do and more, except send people behind Pit, which is what bthrow already does.

That's sorta what I was feeling with Nair, not exactly a "get off me" move but yeah.

I get that you usually grab>Bthrow someone out of their advantage, but t's a buff that would help tech chases into a regrab say when they've teched in, or just any situation when you're relatively close to the stage but your back is to the ledge and you've grabbed. I guess that if it went too far then it would basically be a free arrow. Right now at moderate (~100) percents they go a little too low and close to reliably get hit by an arrow, which I suppose is a good thing for balance? I'm not sure.

What about Uthrow? I've been fiddling with it and it seems decent enough for DI mixups with Dthrow, at least up until higher percents and then followups are generally difficult and Dthrow seems just better.

 

[Life]

Uthrow's main purpose right now is that it's a DI mixup versus dthrow on moderately fast-falling characters (the same ones that are usually immune to dthrow dash attack via teching).

Floatier characters can jump out of it, but Pit doesn't mind being under a floaty without their double jump.

If it were to be buffed, I'd personally like it to be a tiny bit faster; the main reason for that would be to give Pit better punishes on spacies at 0% (he doesn't have much BKB across his moveset AFAICT so it's hard to get stuff started on them). Since uthrow is generally most useful on characters that could otherwise just avoid punishment off dthrow altogether, making it stronger makes dthrow more useful in the situations where dthrow is currently not as useful.

Overall, it isn't in a terrible place, though. And I'm wary of buffing Pit's throws too much; a throw-centric style, as much as I personally like to play that way, doesn't quite seem like the ideal flavor for our once-deadly angel.

 

[Player -0]

Give D-Smash back pls.

I seriously need to implement boost grabbing into my tech chases though. First I need to check if it's worth it though.

 

[nimigoha]

Give D-Smash back pls.

I seriously need to implement boost grabbing into my tech chases though. First I need to check if it's worth it though.

Tried it with Pit earlier today and didn't notice a difference.

Also vs Spacies should Pit play pretend-Melee-Sheik and just go for Dthrow - tech chase - regrab? Seems like a decent way to get around his lack of options vs fastfallers at low percents. Although if they tech away it seems tricky.

 

[Chevy]

Did i miss a joke? My B



How is it 80-20 in pits favour? Samus sucks but can stuff most approaches that pit can do.

You missed another joke buddy. Samus doesn't suck but just saying that Samus stuffs the things that Pit does and saying she wins the matchup because his reflector is bad at being a reflector in obvious situations is looking at the game at a very low level. I don't have experience in this matchup so I don't have much of an opinion on it.

 

[Player -0]

If possible go for Up-Smash on Fox/fast fallers at low percent. This kinda sucks in 3.6 due to SDI beating Up-Smash super hard but still Pit's best on reaction option imo (aside from grab. If people are SDI'ing yo junk consistently then grab and go for your jank throw mixups).

One thing Pit's new D-Smash is good for is covering options while still getting a pop up. At super low percents this doesn't really work because no tumble but later it can go places if missed tech and stuff.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Pit sucks.

Basically, yes on the sheik thing. Like life mentioned, mix in some up throws because its a di mixup. If they di for the dthrow, uthrow leads into regrabs really low.

Also, both are weight dependant. So things like dthrow cg's on di away for Kirby types last a decent bit. Then on di up and in you get free aerials/upsmash(?)/uptilt(?). Lastly, I think Nair is one of the few things pit has going for him.

 

[Life]

nimigoha D-smash's front hit used to have a lower knockback angle. Player -0 sees the higher angle as a nerf since the old angle could lead to kills on space animals and such. Personally, I think a Pit style that's particularly focused on juggling like mine benefits from the changed d-smash; I see pop-ups and juggles as very characteristic Pit things. I don't think there's an objectively right view of the change, though.

And thank you Chevy for explaining something I didn't have the patience to. It's like complaining that Squirtle or Luigi gets hard countered by Marth because of the sword. Yes, it's an advantage, but this game is ridiculously deep and nobody's perfect at it. Whether the actual in-practice matchup is lopsided or not, it's still much more complicated than "X loses to Y because Y has Z." (Unless you're Melee Bowser vs. Sheik, and even that explanation can be drawn out for a little bit if you really feel the need to elaborate.)

Also, Pit's reflector has much less end lag these days, so it's actually kinda useful (though obviously it can't be the sole answer to projectile spam). IIRC Pit can also nair through missiles, but don't quote me on that--it's been a while since I last played the matchup.

EDIT: Smashboards tagging is hard.

 

[Nausicaa]

Pit's Shield is really cool. I like the move.

His N-Air was better pre-3.02 at what it's good for. It was made to be more of a 'drill' but by all practical purposes it's never really use-able AS a drill and there's never much reason for him to bother trying to use a drill move IF he had one.

The most exhausting thing about Pit is that every time I use his glide, I get motion sickness because it accelerates so weirdly.

He's a cool character, I like him. Better throws (positional, not like old stupid free D-Throw or Sheik's stupid mix-ups) would be great.
Knockdown B-Throw is a start, Peach has the best knockdown B-Throw though, so it can't be better than hers, but better is cool.
She uses her butt and her butt SHOULD be the best in the game.
The only thing in Smash that DESERVES something. Her butt.

Pit is cool.

 

[Player -0]

What I got from that was you like Peach's butt

 

[Jamble]

Grab discussion > butt discussion. True combo.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

If you don't make pit grab combo focused, buff dash attack. He needs a reliable launcher. Either that, or nuke all multi hits with x.1 sdi/hitlag multipliers so they can actually link. Thinking upsmash here.

 

[Life]

I had also wanted more base knockback on dash attack b/c of the importance of dthrow dash attack to Pit's punish game and that it doesn't really work all that well at low percents because you end up minus on hit.

But I hardly wanted to turn this into Life's 4.0 Pit Wish List.

EDIT: Sharkz-ESAM vod is up, for those of you who still care about that topic. I... don't really have anything particularly deep to say about it? I'd have liked to have seen them play more after getting used to the matchup. Also, ESAM used a bunch of Ice Mode, which I'm not sure about.

 

[redbeanjelly]

At one point I was practicing reactionary techchases with Pit on spacies. Boost grabbing made no appreciable difference. I'm still not sure if it's possible to do it completely reactionarily, since I tried it on bots that don't DI downthrow properly. But if it can work, I'm almost positive that you can't get regrabs without a little bit of a read on the techroll. Dash attack, maybe though.