Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

Why was the second thing you listed there ZSS back air lol

I couldn't think of a more moderate, more defensible tool

 

[Life]

Also valid, but not the specific quote I was thinking of.

*points at signature*

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Not my words guys, but he did say it. I think it's fair; although some people like Shokio say they'd be okay with one to two more frames landing lag on it to make it less safe on shield when not spaced well.

 

[nimigoha]

What are everyone's thoughts on GW after Lz's showing at TO11?

I know we discussed it after Paragon, have opinions changed?

 

[_Chrome]

The fact that LZ won is essentially a display of the jank that remains on G&W after 3.0 that should have been taken away. This is most notable with the down-b cancelling knockback and the upB being so incredibly broken. Sure he has weaknesses, and he isn't the best character in the game by any means, but he is still poorly designed and deserving of changes on many fronts.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Professor pro won TO11 with snake. Snake is broken, etc etc

 

[Deleted member]

My opinion hasn't really changed.

I think GnW has some silly **** like bucket braking thats very obviously not ok, but he's not actually over powered. Most of the GnW hate just comes from kneejerk reactions in early meta, they'll go away after a while.

edit: I also find it really funny how after I lost to Mr Lz at Paragon, people on reddit started a hate train about me because I think GnW is bull**** when I started talking about how GnW is overrated both before and after the event. GJ Reddit (y)

 

[nimigoha]

Do you think his power vs a shield needs to be looked at? Frame 3 hitbox after landing an aerial, 3/5 of his aerials have awesome landing hitboxes, Dtilt, etc.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Only problems there are landing hitboxes (just dair?) that aren't properly matched to his active frames and animations/hitboxes that don't really match up in duration and/or coverage.

 

[Kipcom]

Cleary we have to nerf Strong Bad's Wario

 

[Life]

I wasn't able to catch today's stream. Respond accordingly.

Kip, did you or Sharkz or really anyone play Pit at TO at all?

GnW has always been overrated. Top 10 but not Top 5 has been my impression for a long time. He seems to be one of the easier characters to quickly pick up and play at a decent level, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I get the feeling 4.0 GnW is gonna get overnerfed at this rate.

Snake needs a bit of his power distributed away from C4 I think, but I don't know exactly what to change because I don't know the character well. He never seemed across-the-board OP to me, though.

 

[nimigoha]

Sharkz played Pit and it was really good, he surprised a lot of people.

Also does anyone want to talk about that DK vs ICs match that was surprisingly not a blowout? DK's Nair and Dtilt are really good against them.

The ledge handoffs were nasty though.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

DK dtilt on general is really under-talked about move from what I've seen. It, bair, and uptilt make dk's neutral better than people give him credit for. If DK's dash animation didn't have fatty problems I would vehemently oppose people who think he's bottom ten. But that alone could ruin DK's neutral.

Life I had a hunch, but I wasn't sure.

As for Pit, he sucks. What specific matches on stream that could watch that would change that opinion?

I also think G&W is overrated. The shield thing, eh. I still think spacing on shield is what GW's should do, which prevents up b stuff. I am starting like the up b change that was suggested where he can't double jump out after an air one, only a grounded one.

Also, dair needs to be nerfed (especially if that up b change doesn't happen). The lingering hit + the absurdly low endlag makes G&W way to hard to juggle. There are 3 frames where the hitbox goes away before he can act. That's broken if there is anything about G&W imo because of that being the go to "weakness" making up b ok.

 

[Jamble]

In the short time I've been here, I have probably seen almost every character in the cast called either "overpowered" or "janky" at some point or another. When I very first got here, I thought it meant that I really should keep an eye out or pay care to dealing with certain characters. After awhile, and after we're starting to circle the roster, it gets hard to take those kinds of statements seriously anymore.

 

[Kipcom]

I did not play Pit, but Sharkz went pit a few times in the tourney. Even took a game off of esam's samus (at least I think that was with Pit lol)

 

[Life]

GnW dair is easy. Don't sit directly under him and wait to get hit. Stare at GnW as he comes down (like physically stare at his spot on the CRT, it's important because this requires good spacing), get out of the path of dair, and attack his sides.

Against this tactic, GnW will have to come down with something else instead; fair can be shieldgrabbed easily in this situation (since he's not just doing last-frame SHFFL aerials), though I can't speak for bair if GnW is facing away from you (but in what situation are you juggling GnW where he's facing away?). B-reverse bacon might get GnW out of immediate trouble, but it'll usually force him near the edge of the stage, where he's still at a disadvantage. Besides that, there's coming down with nothing, airdodging/wavelanding, etc. You know, the stuff that's available to every character?

I have no issues juggling our local GnW regardless of what character I'm playing. Could be a player issue, but it's not noticeably harder or easier than any other character that guy plays at least.

When stuff doesn't work, you experimentally alter the stuff before you throw it out entirely. You can't sit under GnW and uair like a dingus (nor can you do that to Dedede, or Link or TL), but that doesn't mean there isn't other stuff worth doing in that situation.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Eh, I still think that interrupt is absurd. It definitely gives credence to people being frustrated with juggling him. The come from the side is always mentioned (I don't comment cause I don't have the experience to say), but I assumed that it would work for fast characters, but the slower characters would have a lot of trouble with it.

Bair should be good against shield because of the landing hitbox. Speaking of, I think its fine though (maybe trim back dair's).

Also, fix the animations plz. It is the opposite problem for dair, but the hitboxes don't cover where the key is...

 

[Life]

Think of it like juggling a tiny Zelda. You have to be careful on the sides because of kicks, you have to be careful below because of dair, but anything in between is wide open. Zelda, though, has Nayru's and a slightly more useful nair to help her through this situation.

GnW does need animation cleanup. I generally think of that as a separate issue from his state of balance, but maybe I shouldn't?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Uh, since when is dair good for Zelda to get out of juggles? It is slow and doesn't linger. I thought that was the reason Zelda gets juggled so much...

 

[Blazing Ambition]

just differentiate the throw animations
or don't
maybe it's ok if he has di mixups
I don't know

I know we stopped talking about falcon like 2 pages ago
but it'd be cool if they lessened the combo potential of moves like up-air
just lower the angle
but gave his tilts more utility
Like a slightly stronger, yoshi-esque ftilt
or a faster down tilt
just to spice up his combos

faster recovery on u-tilt would be nice

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yoshi ftilt is really strange. I hate it when people apply too much logic to video games, but why the heck does it pop up???

 

[Saproling]

Yoshi ftilt is really strange. I hate it when people apply too much logic to video games, but why the heck does it pop up???

Do combo.

 

[JesteRace]

Does Mr. Pickle still think Link sucks? Just curious. Also, Esam being back in the game and beating IPK was cool to see. Professor Pro showed out like a champ too. Man, TO 11 was really cool overall.

 

[Life]

Uh, since when is dair good for Zelda to get out of juggles? It is slow and doesn't linger. I thought that was the reason Zelda gets juggled so much...

It doesn't. Obviously not a perfect analogy. I thought it illustrated the point fairly well. 'm tired.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Saproling
I think up tilt is better in every way though, ftilt is just in a weird limbo + making no sense.

 

[Foo]

In the short time I've been here, I have probably seen almost every character in the cast called either "overpowered" or "janky" at some point or another. When I very first got here, I thought it meant that I really should keep an eye out or pay care to dealing with certain characters. After awhile, and after we're starting to circle the roster, it gets hard to take those kinds of statements seriously anymore.

Why gosh golly, mister, it's almost like the some hundred odd people of varying regions, experience levels, skill levels, characters, playstyles, and mindsets have... differing opinions? Yeah, take everything with a grain of salt and judge posts based on the reasoning they present and the experience they have to back it up rather than just the fact they posted. If we have page after page of debates on fox and a wide majority thinks he's overpowered, maybe take that more seriously than one guy with 5 posts who is salty because a DK knocked him out of his first tourney.

 

[nimigoha]

Saproling
I think up tilt is better in every way though, ftilt is just in a weird limbo + making no sense.

Is the range a bit better though?

Also easier to pivot with than Utilt.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Maybe, but at max range you shouldn't be getting combos, though if they don't DI/DI in, they might get combo'd regardless, but that isn't a very good metric to call it a good move. Pivots are the truth. When I heard @Soft Serve mention it a few times I thought it was absurd. But than I accidentally did a pivot nair with marth in melee, spent an hour messing around with it, and starting implementing it in my practice. Then I started working on pivot grabs for cg's and dash back stuff. Now I am starting to work on pivot tilts. They are the hardest, but probably the most rewarding. Get practicing it, it isn't as hard as you think. Pivoting to the right is easier imo, so start with that.

Also, Foo , that wasn't a shot at me saying DK is better than people think, right? I don't think it was, but I thought I'd ask anyways.

 

[Deleted member]

I believe it was @Umbreon who said that each character having a barely defensible trait made them more flavourful and fun to play against (gave examples of ROB airdashes, ZSS back air, etc.).

and that powerful ubiquitous tools allow players to win in the face of adversity, wheres situational and mediocre tools exacerbate the MU heavy nature of the game.

I get the feeling 4.0 GnW is gonna get overnerfed at this rate.

don't be so shallow, we're not stupid.

 

[DrinkingFood]

and that powerful ubiquitous tools allow players to win in the face of adversity, wheres situational and mediocre tools exacerbate the MU heavy nature of the game.



don't be so shallow, we're not stupid.

When you say "powerful, ubiquitous tools", do you mean ubiquitous as in everyone has them (everyone would have powerful tool)? Or ubiquitous as in they are good in every matchup? Tools that are good in every matchup aren't going to fix heavy matchup polarization, because they aren't going to be equal in every situation. It's find to be okay with indefensible stuff because they make the game more interesting and dynamic, but there's no reason to believe that fixes character's matchup spreads. Like GnW's bacon completely shuts down characters who rely on airborne positioning, and isn't that great against grounded characters who rely on grounded positioning but can approach with lingering aerials.
So when you say powerful ubiquitous tools, I'm not sure if you believe that every character having tools indefensible as falco lasers, or GnW bacon, etc would fix matchup polarization because that's really hard to believe, if anything it would just make things worse and the best way to go about it would be to improve tools that are good in every situation, like movement (dash speed, run speed, momentum carry into jumps, various other attributes), shielding ability, general ratio of strength/safety of normals to the characters overall movement ability (faster characters stay stay weaker and don't have reach to provide as much safety, slower characters have damage and reach to stay safe, etc) tools that serve as inbetweens of the starting state of the game and the goal state (ie the inbetween from neutral game to taking a stock being punish game/stagger game, characters that can't do this well or are too susceptible to this may need improvements in those areas).

 

[_Chrome]

When you say "powerful, ubiquitous tools", do you mean ubiquitous as in everyone has them (everyone would have powerful tool)? Or ubiquitous as in they are good in every matchup? Tools that are good in every matchup aren't going to fix heavy matchup polarization, because they aren't going to be equal in every situation. It's find to be okay with indefensible stuff because they make the game more interesting and dynamic, but there's no reason to believe that fixes character's matchup spreads. Like GnW's bacon completely shuts down characters who rely on airborne positioning, and isn't that great against grounded characters who rely on grounded positioning but can approach with lingering aerials. So when you say powerful ubiquitous tools, I'm not sure if you believe that every character having tools indefensible as falco lasers, or GnW bacon, etc would fix matchup polarization because that's really hard to believe, if anything it would just make things worse and the best way to go about it would be to improve tools that are good in every situation, like movement (dash speed, run speed, momentum carry into jumps, various other attributes), shielding ability, general ratio of strength/safety of normals to the characters overall movement ability (faster characters stay stay weaker and don't have reach to provide as much safety, slower characters have damage and reach to stay safe, etc) tools that serve as inbetweens of the starting state of the game and the goal state (ie the inbetween from neutral game to taking a stock being punish game/stagger game, characters that can't do this well or are too susceptible to this may need improvements in those areas).

You're really knowledgeable and all, but you should really use the 'ENTER' key on your keyboard to make separate paragraphs. It makes it easier for us plebs to read when we're tired.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I would but it's all the same idea/question, I don't know where to separate it
guess i'll just pick a spot

 

[Avro-Arrow]

If we're going to talk about this, I always double tap the enter key to make it look even less wally...

Wall-y.

Wall-E.

~Waaaaaaall-E~

R.O.B. main with the Wall-E blocks of text. I see what you did there DrinkingFood .

 

[_Chrome]

If we're going to talk about this, I always double tap the enter key to make it look even less wally...

Wall-y.

Wall-E.

~Waaaaaaall-E~

R.O.B. main with the Wall-E blocks of text. I see what you did there DrinkingFood .

Mfw I see this:

http://zippy.gfycat.com/CreepyPoliticalDaddylonglegs.webm

"I gotta take a sip!"

 

[Avro-Arrow]

^LOOOOOOOOL!

I now know where R.O.B gets all of his gyros. All the garbage R.O.B. aka Wall-E crushes up he makes into deadly projectiles to annoy the f*** out of his opponents. He's really just sending them a message about how it makes the Earth feel.

For example, @wario he takes his burger wrappers from McDonald's and throws them at him to see how he likes it. Take that, fatty.

 

[Professor Pro]

Snake is dumb and I don't have better fundamentals than my opponents so it's the only way I'm managing to win.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Good stuff prof, also shout outs to ripple. 4 diddy's a Lucario and two lucas, and still made it into top 8 as Ddd, even beating dla. Hope that was on stream cause I have no clue how that m.u gets made better.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Can we talk about how Game and watches animations dont match his hitboxes?

Fsmash is absolutely decieving along with many others moves.
Bucket braking makes no sense either and i dont think any character has this besides bowsers Down B (which you obviously can't employ).

This character is not OP and i still have yet to lose to a GnW but something about it irks me how his animations are weird.

 

[Kipcom]

Good stuff prof, also shout outs to ripple. 4 diddy's a Lucario and two lucas, and still made it into top 8 as Ddd, even beating dla. Hope that was on stream cause I have no clue how that m.u gets made better.

Nope, I saw them playing on the same setup that I played Ripple on, so no recording. :/

Also, Ripple is amazing. When I played him, it was pretty much down to the wire last games (both games being last stock).
He plays DDD in such a different way from Smur. It's so much more patient and methodical. Can't even hate on it. I'll get him next time!

This character is not OP and i still have yet to lose to a GnW but something about it irks me how his animations are weird.

A lot of us feel this way, tbh.
I was talking to MrLz about what he thinks is going to happen to GnW, and we both agreed that some animation changes would be necessary.

I think a couple hitboxes need to be changed too, not sure what he thinks about GnW's hitboxes, though. I don't really like dtilt having such a huge, surrounding hitbox, and for his nair I don't like the idea of his entire body being just as strong as the parachute.

 

[Saproling]

Can we talk about how Game and watches animations dont match his hitboxes?

Fsmash is absolutely decieving along with many others moves.
Bucket braking makes no sense either and i dont think any character has this besides bowsers Down B (which you obviously can't employ).

This character is not OP and i still have yet to lose to a GnW but something about it irks me how his animations are weird.

Yeah lets talk about this and restate more **** thats already been said obviously not enough times.