Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

Without a good launcher, like he currently is, I think pits bottom 10. Another buff I'd like is a bit more range on the lingering bair. I think it would make his neutral a lot better.

 

[Kipcom]

Be on the lookout for my 500 page essay on what I think PM Pit should have improved and/or changed.

 

[Tomaster]

-Frame 4 Jumpsquat
-Working Up smash
-Glide attack that functions like MK's Up b attack (the one that activates when u press A after MK's up b). Might be too good tho, Idk.
-Better Bair animation
-Stronger Dair spike (should be as strong as Marth's)
-Throws less weight dependent

This is what I feel Pit needs, with the first 2 being absolutely necessary to make him complete.

 

[Beorn]

I mostly agree with the dude above me. Iffy on the glide attack. I don't think he is that bad. Dair sweetspot should be strong, but not a spike. Bair already looks sexy as hell.

4 frame jump squat and working usmash are a must though. Agreed.

 

[Bazkip]

-Throws less weight dependent

Less? Throws either are or aren't weight dependant.

Dair sweetspot should be strong, but not a spike.

Dair sweetspot is a spike.

 

[nimigoha]

Not sure what the angle is but it's a spike or semi spike with very low growth.

I think with the very very precise spacing and timing required to actually hit it the reward could be a bit better.

Not as strong as Marth's though. Maybe more like Pikachu's (if it's currently weaker, not sure).

We have loads of time, it's not like everything needs to be done at once. Hopefully PMDT will do either the jumpsquat or the Upsmash or maybe both, plus other tinkering, and then we can reevaluate.

I like the baby steps balancing PMDT has been doing more recently. I don't think anything really drastic is left in the game that needs to be removed like it used to (Ike's old sword, Telehover, Jump out of Sonic Down B, hitlagless Magnet, etc.) and it's more tweaks, meaning the play styles of characters aren't changing too much anymore, which I enjoy.

 

[Beorn]

Less? Throws either are or aren't weight dependant.


Dair sweetspot is a spike.

I know .... It should be a strong meteor. It would be more useful for combos on stage and while strong at later percents, be meteor cancel-able and therefore manageable off stage. The hitbubble it's self, maybe made slightly better in priority over his other hitbubbles or size. I don't think any character with this gimp game and ability to go deep should ever have a strong spiking aerial.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Eh, pit's dair wouldn't be very fitting for an onstage meteor, it would be way to late for it to be useful.

 

[nimigoha]

Especially since it already pops up grounded opponents with the rest of the hit, the boon of on stage meteors lol.

Whether your move is a meteor or a spike when you can go deep doesn't really matter, you're probably too far away from the stage for your meteor cancel to do much unless you still have a jump or you have a godlike recovery like Snake.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Esam is weird, he is one of the rare people that play better in ice mode in most situations, since the fair and up smash and missiles are better for his missile cancel game. Ice allows you to stuff the approaches you force as samus a lot better in my opinion, and allows you to knock the opponent away and reset the situation.

From what I saw he was more on point in fire mode at this tourney since I assumed he practiced it to do better vs the dk. Not sure if it was better for the matchup or if brass monkey was still on tilt from playing against the ice climbers.

Either way the tourney was mad interesting, not sure anyone even knew who sharkz played since he wasnt at the NC tourney I went to a while back, and they probably guesstimated where he and the other NC players would fall based on that. Definitely wish there was time to play against all the crews, Ga kind of hurt ourselves by splitting up, but everyone is too close to each other for 1 crew, and no one really sticks out as significantly better than other players.

 

[Player -0]

Sharkz is known for ICs/Pit though.

I'm down to change Pit's Dair spike angle back to the tailspike angle lol.

I'm so-so on frame 4 jump squat. It would be cool but idk if it's what Pit needs.

 

[Life]

4-frame jumpsquat is more of a QOL change. Gonna ask y'all another question: under what circumstances would you ever increase the amount of jumpsquat a character has?

If it were already four frames, I would see no reason to change it to five; reducing it to four improves his ground to air transitions, gives him a slightly better WDOOS, and all around makes movement feel a bit smoother.

The other important QOL change besides jumpsquat and multihits would be a better airdodge animation. Pit has pretty much the worst one in the game for wavelanding.

 

[Keman]

All this Pit chat, I always like the visuals of top players. I was really surprised with how good Gallo's 3.6 Pit was when I watched this

 

[BND]

4-frame jumpsquat is more of a QOL change. Gonna ask y'all another question: under what circumstances would you ever increase the amount of jumpsquat a character has?

When you have a good grounded OoS option that turns into flaming garbage if done in the air and the player in question's too scrubby to actually get the grounded move timing consistently :\
(See: Bowser/DK up-B, Snake 3.02- up-B, up smash OoS)

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I don't have anything to say about G&W I don't have all that much experience with playing against him in the first place let alone an actually good one.So why should I try and suggest **** when there are other more suited to handling him I think he needs minor nerfs but my opinion doesn't matter.

So then why would you lash out the way you did saying i am rephrasing everyone else's opinion when you dont even have "much" of one?

Pit's Shield is really cool. I like the move.

His N-Air was better pre-3.02 at what it's good for. It was made to be more of a 'drill' but by all practical purposes it's never really use-able AS a drill and there's never much reason for him to bother trying to use a drill move IF he had one.

The most exhausting thing about Pit is that every time I use his glide, I get motion sickness because it accelerates so weirdly.

He's a cool character, I like him. Better throws (positional, not like old stupid free D-Throw or Sheik's stupid mix-ups) would be great.
Knockdown B-Throw is a start, Peach has the best knockdown B-Throw though, so it can't be better than hers, but better is cool.
She uses her butt and her butt SHOULD be the best in the game.
The only thing in Smash that DESERVES something. Her butt.

Pit is cool.

I think his shield is really bad and only good for stylish hard reads (which dont come often).
I dont know how to fix this though...Maybe make it jump cancellable or less in animation lag?

Without a good launcher, like he currently is, I think pits bottom 10. Another buff I'd like is a bit more range on the lingering bair. I think it would make his neutral a lot better.

How would you feel about pit's wall of pain being more doable? Like less lag on the move?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

There is not a situation where hitting with dk up b is bad. You mess up the oos slightly and hit them in the air, tragic, you just did 34% damage as a reward for your failure, and your opponent still has 4 or more frames before they can punish, but oh no you landed, oh well only got like 5frames of lag and you know what sounds like a good idea... Another 2f up b . But don't worry it will hit, cause the person you are fighting believes in luxury like endlag on recoveries, and punishing improper tech, so they just ate the strong hit of up b and took another like 16% damage and went flying off stage.

Sorry the relevance of your point still stands, but dk is a bad example of the statement you made. And as for the utility of pit's down b, does it not turn the opponent around when he 1st pulls it out on a physical attack. Makes me wonder why dk ,ddd going low, bowser, g&w with no jump, ever make it back on stage if it still does.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I was gonna say that. DK has a great UpB when you catch people in it.

What about giving Pit's shield a stall like Mario's Cape? Stalls for a few frames then you continue falling, once per airtime? Makes it way better for edgeguarding.

Also with regard to reflects, does anyone think a decent Fox nerf would be addressing his ledge grab box? He can reverse grab ledge for ages after his apex. Caping his recovery if it's slightly off a sweetspot does nothing.

 

[prem]

Aren't those ages literally the time it takes between fox having 20 frames of landing lag and 7 frames of landing lag. From what I know you can grab the ledge backwards until you go into special fall. I could be wrong but that how Ive always planned it with falco

 

[Boiko]

There is not a situation where hitting with dk up b is bad. You mess up the oos slightly and hit them in the air, tragic, you just did 34% damage as a reward for your failure, and your opponent still has 4 or more frames before they can punish, but oh no you landed, oh well only got like 5frames of lag and you know what sounds like a good idea... Another 2f up b . But don't worry it will hit, cause the person you are fighting believes in luxury like endlag on recoveries, and punishing improper tech, so they just ate the strong hit of up b and took another like 16% damage and went flying off stage.

Sorry the relevance of your point still stands, but dk is a bad example of the statement you made. And as for the utility of pit's down b, does it not turn the opponent around when he 1st pulls it out on a physical attack. Makes me wonder why dk ,ddd going low, bowser, g&w with no jump, ever make it back on stage if it still does.

Except when you up b>they hold down and now you're whirling around the stage while your opponent is sharking underneath you. And why are we assuming that the opponent doesn't know DK has low end lag on his up b? I guess for all of our arguments going forward we should consider the opponent only knowing half of a match up.

 

[Tomaster]

Less? Throws either are or aren't weight dependant.

Hmmm didn't know that... I just don't like how he can't move for so long after throwing heavies..

 

[Bazkip]

Hmmm didn't know that... I just don't like how he can't move for so long after throwing heavies..

So you don't like how...heavies are advantaged by being heavy?

 

[AceGamer]

So you don't like how...heavies are advantaged by being heavy?

Only advantaged sometimes since some throws are weight dependant and some aren't, however that's decided

 

[Tomaster]

So you don't like how...heavies are advantaged by being heavy?

Not in that way.. being heavy doesn't have to mean that your opponent's throws need to feel awkward.

 

[JOE!]

Tell me Pikachu wouldnt struggle throwing Bowser vs throwing Squirtle

 

[Bazkip]

Only advantaged sometimes since some throws are weight dependant and some aren't, however that's decided

It seems to me that weight independent throws are usually on throws that aren't meant to be combo throws (IE: Kill or positional advantage throws) where it doesn't really matter, but that's not necessarily consistent across the cast. There's probably a bunch of non-combo throws that are weight dependant, and then you have **** like Falcon's "Oh my normal hoo-hah doesn't work cause you're too heavy? lol good thing I have a second weight independent hoo-hah!"

I could be totally wrong about the intention of weight dependency on throws though, it isn't something that I've spent a lot of time looking into, it's merely the impression that I get.

But Falcon's up throw being weight independent is definitely ****ing stupid.

 

[Tomaster]

Tell me Pikachu wouldnt struggle throwing Bowser vs throwing Squirtle

Lol if smash was realistic we'd all quit..

 

[Deleted member]

I guess for all of our arguments going forward we should consider the opponent only knowing half of a match up.

where have you been for the last two years? we've always done this to some extent really.

--------

what a "quality of life" change? someone actually explain this to me.

 

[nimigoha]

where have you been for the last two years? we've always done this to some extent really.

--------

what a "quality of life" change? someone actually explain this to me.

I think the way Life is using it is to describe something that makes the character feel better to play as. Bowser's JS change was a QoL change because jumping with him before was incredibly cumbersome and sluggish. Decreasing Pit's JS would make him play (and more importantly feel) more like the light and floaty character he is in all other aspects.

It's a pretty subjective term tbh.

 

[Saproling]

T tasteless gentleman You're just restating **** thats been said many times before you even got here don't dredge up old conversations nobody wants when you never have anything to add besides "Bowser loses"

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Except when you up b>they hold down and now you're whirling around the stage while your opponent is sharking underneath you. And why are we assuming that the opponent doesn't know DK has low end lag on his up b? I guess for all of our arguments going forward we should consider the opponent only knowing half of a match up.

Just how high did he jump up if he said it turns to a sh**y move I thought we were assuming it still hit. Dong has enough drift to probably whirl back to ledge, but if he jettisoned himself into the sky to where you are sharking him, I hope he has a place to platform cancel or just cc your initial attack on landing and drop up air. From experience I was just saying getting the air version of the move is not that bad of a situation, I used hyperbole but in your scenario there are several characters that could brutally punish that kind of mistake.

And on the bowser thing. There was a hype bowser ditto... You won't believe it but bowser lost.

 

[BND]

Just how high did he jump up if he said it turns to a sh**y move I thought we were assuming it still hit

I don't remember the full details, but for reference if DK's facing the victim and does his up-B on his first airborne frame, he barely hits Fox, and if he does up-B on his second airborne frame he misses a standing Mewtwo.
There's a lot more lenience if the opponent's at his backside. Regardless, even if the move hits, it sends victims at roughly a 30 degree angle (I'm guessing at a Sakurai angle). You'd need some equally garbage SDI for DK's aerial up-B to do anything significant against grounded opponents if DK jumped off the same plane.

 

[Life]

QOL is a term I picked up from my time in the League community a couple years ago. It generally refers to changes that constitute very minor buffs to a character's overall power level, but makes them *feel* substantially better to play. For example, the one frame air physics delay doesn't actually do a whole lot in practice AFAIK (it messes with the visual cue for wavelanding, increases the lag of a wavedash by one frame, etc.), so getting rid of it will barely change the game's balance at all. But doing so will make the game feel much better. QOL.

 

[Player -0]

All this Pit chat, I always like the visuals of top players. I was really surprised with how good Gallo's 3.6 Pit was when I watched this

Gallo's Pit was pretty cool. Lots of non-guaranteed stuff that would've folded to counterplay, some improper DI by Boiko, etc. I only watched the Pit parts btw.

Like seriously Boiko could've CC'ed half of Gallo's stuff -> D-Tilt -> Combo. You can actually Dair out of Pit's Fair -> etc at like, <40% if he DJ's into you and stuff then Fairs, leaving you above him, then rip Pit because no vert. recovery. Note that Pit can come up with Up Air but that sends you up so lol ez stage. Then Pit recovers if you didn't trade with the Up Air.

No more Pit counterplay info because rip Pit.

Ness vs. Pit is fun though, you're floaty enough to get out of combos for days and Ness struggles vs. floaties because lol. Non sucky MU's for Pit yus.

Edit - If anything of Pit's should be changed please make his okay/kinda working stuff into stuff that'll actually work a lot. Like his BnB (B&B?) is iffy at times, do we really need a shield stall "buff"?

shield stalls would probably nerf Pit's get out of juggle free card too.

And I like my get out of juggle free card.

 

[Skelterai]

I personally just think Pit needs to have looser movement and and a tighter offense. His arrows are fine to me, and I would just enjoy more guaranteed options, especially from grabs. In the end, they might just buff his bair, and Make the dair sweetspot a little bigger. I'll still play him, but as he is now, I think he needs improvement. I see him as one of the bottom 10 (if not bottom 5) characters in the game, merely due to his combo system not firing on all cylinders

 

[Kulty]

Hi guys,

New to this thread here. What are the most dominant characters (i.e: high and top-tiers) in PM v3.6? I never played PM before, so I want to have a better idea of who are the best characters in PM?

 

[Life]

Hi guys,

New to this thread here. What are the most dominant characters (i.e: high and top-tiers) in PM v3.6? I never played PM before, so I want to have a better idea of who are the best characters in PM?

There are like twenty-five characters that could be called top ten. Nobody really agrees on PM tiers, so feel free to play whoever you want (although you should stick with just one for tournament play until you have experience).

 

[Jamble]

Well what kind of character do you like to play? PM has a decent pick of most archetypes, and the most important step is finding a character that feels right and works for your playstyle

 

[Kulty]

There are like twenty-five characters that could be called top ten. Nobody really agrees on PM tiers, so feel free to play whoever you want (although you should stick with just one for tournament play until you have experience).

Would you mind if you list me those 25 characters? I'm struggling to pick between mostly. There might be others likethat I'm not sure if I'm gonna pick them or not.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

T tasteless gentleman

I don't really know. I got interested in Pit when 3.6b came out (I play a lot of random characters for fun), but after toying with some concepts/questions of how he is supposed to get things started and his neutral in general, I didn't see much and kinda dropped him. If you wanna buff his punish game, I think that would be a respectable choice. But I don't really think that is the place he necessarily need buffs. I think its more in getting things started and maybe a touch with overall neutral. I'm not really an expert though, so everything is from my limited experience and perspective. But I haven't really seen much disagreement or contradiction, other than people saying he isn't bad, he just needs to work harder (shoutouts to Life ).

Kulty

What others have said. Play who you like. Eventually you will notice the gaps, but they are much smaller than other games. You have a lot more freedom to play who you want because you don't need to worry as much about absurd mu's. They are still there, but are always manageable.

Speaking of which, @Strong Bad, are you planning to update/make a tier list? I think you said you were planning on it post Paragon LA but it didn't save and you didn't end up making it (or you did and I am dumb). Thoughts on making one post-Tipped Off 11?

 

[Kulty]

Well what kind of character do you like to play? PM has a decent pick of most archetypes, and the most important step is finding a character that feels right and works for your playstyle

Well, I haveas my secondaries in PM, since I want to practice with them at the same time, since they are my mains in Melee. Marth was my main, and Dr. Mario and Falco were my secondaries.
*EDIT: Basically, I try to find one character that's exclusive to PM, one that feels totally different, fresh and new compared to his original moveset in the main Smash game. In case of Melee veterans, I want someone who has a somewhat different moveset compared to his Melee counterpart like Ganondorf, Samus and Roy. As for Brawl veterans, I don't mind, since I feel that playing the same moveset in Melee physics feels totally different compared to Brawl physics.