Tier List Speculation

[CORY]

Stop peddling your smut in here, smut peddler.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Oh your gonna edge guard me by hitting me? I hope that PM jank priority armour doesnt let me grab you instead of me taking knockback.

Can you just stop posting? This is one of the most uninformed posts I've seen in awhile and that's saying something.
Especially this part I've quoted, grab priority is nerfed in PM compared to melee. It's the same thing, but the grabber takes damage in PM.

 

[_Chrome]

WHAT. IS. THIS!?!?!?!?!??

 

[DrinkingFood]

4.0 leaks

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Duuude that is so freakin' sick. Like wow. Talk about not being a sitting goose in the water. That's such a fitting move, lots of flavour and it works within his kit. Know what I mean? He actually moves well in the air, as an aerial combat-based fighter.....


4.O LEAKS?!?!? THIS BETTER NOT BE A JOKE DrinkingFood

 

[Jamble]

Is sethlon still playing pm roy?

I'm sorry, but I think this might be too much of an attempted cheap shot on Roy. Sethlon is a great player, it is a treat to watch his Roy games on youtube and whatnot, and his Roy guide actually helped me practice things that make me a better player in general, not just with Roy. It's a shame that he's not playing PM. But whether he plays Roy anymore does not decide whether or not Roy is viable. Sethlon is a Roy player through and through, so even if he's being as objective as humanly possible, he has a natural bias against nerfs for Roy. From what I saw on the Roy forum, his main issue with some changes was that he was worried Roy wasn't solo-mainable anymore, but Roy doesn't actually have many particularly polarizing matchups either in his favor or against him. Roy is great in PM, it's just that he's a glass cannon. But a glass cannon with a disjoint, great combo game, good kill potential and a relatively varied moveset.

 

[Tomaster]

Pit was definitely overly nerfed from 3.02, I don't think that's even up for discussion seeing how bad he was in 3.5. That down throw had to go, but I feel like that throw held his kit together in 3.02. Without that throw he's just a bunch of puzzle pieces that don't fit together. He has a bunch of great tools but they don't seem to work in unison as well as they do for most characters. Specifically i feel like he doesn't have good setups to his great kill moves (Bair, Up B, Smashes). He can set up into those but it's very situational. From what I've seen Pits often find themselves looking for reads to finish stocks.

 

[MLGF]

TBH, I dunno if anyone is solo main material in PM. I feel every character has one or two mu's that give them bad times. It can lead to some weird **** in local metas because of the nature of CPing though.

But hey, if it's so few, it's an exaggeration to say you need to duel main, having a sub character that is less technically demanding mitigates this easily.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

TBH, I dunno if anyone is solo main material in PM. I feel every character has one or two mu's that give them bad times. It can lead to some weird **** in local metas because of the nature of CPing though.

But hey, if it's so few, it's an exaggeration to say you need to duel main, having a sub character that is less technically demanding mitigates this easily.

fox

poob said something about how no characters in PM have losing matchups where they're guaranteed to lose unless they drastically outplay their opponent. poob said that as long as you are better than your opponent (which you need to be in order to win a neutral match) then there's really not much appreciable difference between winning a 50:50 mu and a 45:55 mu

the thing that largely governs what people believe are "bad mus" is matchup inexperience and/or lack of practice
the general widespread trends of viability in PM largely obscure any real in-depth analysis of matchups or tierlists due to the chaotic effects of minute differences in player skill and matchup knowledge

I'd say that every character is solo main material in PM simply because they have to be. If you want to be successful at the game you're going to need to dedicate time to a character and fully flesh out all of their matchups rather than relying on a character counterpick

despite some of tafo's shortfalls, he once said that only the top .01 percent of players are going to have an unequivocal overall benefit from switching mains or multimaining
and that was for melee and I believe it's even more true for PM

 

[DMG]

That's just wrong

Multi maining in PM is more viable partly because of the effect you described: people don't have MU's fleshed out for every character vs every character. You could come from a Brawl character in a hard looking MU (take Wario vs Marth as example), and instead of possibly fruitlessly grinding that out as Wario, you have a pocket MK / Sheik / whatever. Stuff like that is way more efficient if you hold the view that the game isn't fleshed out (which is not an uncommon proposition).


It may stunt your growth as a player overall to rely on it, until you get to x skill level, but as of right now it's statistically true for many players that they should look to multi mains, secondaries, or main switches to address MU problems. Either perceived or legitimate.


PM is less balanced than people harp it out to be, despite the uncertainty of many MU's and character potentials so far. Saying no char has super blatant losing MU's is possibly disrespectful to lower tier mains who grind their character out for literally years in PM, and the attitude looks like "Oh just get better, there's no way stuff like Ivy vs D3 is unwinnable. Just get better". That flies directly against the experience and insight of many strong players and their efforts to combat what look like legitimately hellish MU's.


I think anyone actually advocating that, should directly play some of these characters against some of their bad looking MU's and see if that doesn't fix the PM balance perspective for themselves.

 

[Jamble]

I don't know if I buy into the multi-maining or subbing being a bad thing for growth. I think that's maybe a little bit true once you hit a certain skill level,but I find my relative struggle in finding and sticking with a main has really helped me with my fundamentals in PM quite a bit, and I think most characters have quite a bit to teach newbies at least. I've bounced from Samus to Toon Link, to Charizard, to Roy, and full circle back to Samus so far, and I actually have found that it's really improved my Samus game a ton, at least against the other human I play with regularly. I've gained something in my overall mindfulness as a player from each character.

This could also be my scrubbiness rearing its ugly head TBH.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

You should absolutely be experimenting with things to find what's best for you. And yes, using multiple characters is good for expanding your mindset, but if you want to advance and learn more intricacies of the game, it's good to learn how to adapt to novel situations (i.e. learning how to deal with particularly oppressive options and come up with creative solutions). This is also really good for your development as a player.

It's kind of like life bro. See what you're good at, try things, but at some point you have to decide on a career and focus to ever get really good at something.

 

[Jamble]

I guess that's true too. Trying different characters is a good idea for somebody still learning how the game works and what works for them, but I'm sure as you said, there gets to be a skill cutoff. PM is actually my first smash where I've really put much thought into potentially playing competitively.

Still, part of me is considering trying to learn both Samus and Roy at a higher skill level. Beyond the dilemma of who to main, and whether subbing is good, a more relevant hurdle is that the smash scene is nonexistant in my region lol.

 

[Nausicaa]

PM is less balanced than people harp it out to be, despite the uncertainty of many MU's and character potentials so far.

Spoiler

Combo
Balance is hard.

Edit: PS: Binge the shiz out of that.
Pick like... 4 characters. Play all of them at once for about 6 months. After 6 months, drop all but one. Play 1 single character exclusively and strictly for 3 months. Then pick the next and do the same.
After 1 year, go back to all 4 and you'll be far better with all 4 of them than you ever would have been had you stuck with all 4 the whole time, or with 1 the whole time. From there, you can multi-main or solo-main and you'll have a good understanding experientially on what it takes to be great with a character, and great at Smash, because you won't just good with a character, you'll be good at getting good fast and efficiently in the ways you need to be good.
/rant

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Can you just stop posting? This is one of the most uninformed posts I've seen in awhile and that's saying something.
Especially this part I've quoted, grab priority is nerfed in PM compared to melee. It's the same thing, but the grabber takes damage in PM.

So in melee grab priority happens all the time like in pm just the grabber takes damage?
Please tell me how eating a smash attack with a grab is proper game mechanics.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

So in melee grab priority happens all the time like in pm just the grabber takes damage?
Please tell me how eating a smash attack with a grab is proper game mechanics.

Cause MMmelee, but while your at it, can you explain why Butt grabs are a thing? Do keep in mind some things are cause of difficulties in taking it out. Such as olimar continuing to go through the throw animation after opponent breaks out, and the random chance of auto breaking out of diddy's command grab or getting tripped out of his command grab by his banana.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar can also grab some characters while theyre holding ledge but nobody knows about that shh

 

[Player -0]

I knew. Pika vs. Oli MU in Brawl was so annoying.

From a player perspective I enjoy being a solid player over having several pocket characters. Although that's probably hypocritical because I play random lol

 

[Boiko]

That's just wrong

Multi maining in PM is more viable partly because of the effect you described: people don't have MU's fleshed out for every character vs every character. You could come from a Brawl character in a hard looking MU (take Wario vs Marth as example), and instead of possibly fruitlessly grinding that out as Wario, you have a pocket MK / Sheik / whatever. Stuff like that is way more efficient if you hold the view that the game isn't fleshed out (which is not an uncommon proposition).

I don't like to rely on the x-factor that my opponent may not know the match up in order to win.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Cause MMmelee, but while your at it, can you explain why Butt grabs are a thing? Do keep in mind some things are cause of difficulties in taking it out. Such as olimar continuing to go through the throw animation after opponent breaks out, and the random chance of auto breaking out of diddy's command grab or getting tripped out of his command grab by his banana.

These all should not be things.

Why is olimars grab so buggy anyway? It doesn't have priority, clips through character, opponent can break out before getting thrown AND if you throw them and they break out youll be stuck and animation for the punish.

I think olimar would be way higher IF his grabs worked properly AND his UP B wasn't ball breakingly bad. Seriously there are some stages where you cant sweetspot without risking getting stuck under the stage.

Other than that and RNG he is great.

 

[Life]

I don't like to rely on the x-factor that my opponent may not know the match up in order to win.

While I agree with this sentiment, I think DMG meant something more like "it's entirely possible Wario vs. Marth is not as bad as Wario mains make it out to be because there may be some factor or combination of factors in that matchup that Wario mains have not figured out how to abuse."

I.E. just calling it a bad matchup and giving up doesn't progress the metagame but does let individual players win more easily.

 

[Jamble]

I actually don't think tripping out of Diddy's command grab is an issue. Similarly to how Link and Toon Link have to be mindful about their bomb drops' placement on the stage, I do think the mechanics behind Diddy having to be mindful of leaping on an opponent's face near a banana peel makes sense.

 

[AceGamer]

These all should not be things.

Why is olimars grab so buggy anyway? It doesn't have priority,
.

It does have priority, it just doesn't show up as often as everyone elses because Pikmin have HP(in the from of how much percent they can take before dying). lol I mean a grab can't win over an attack if the grabber dies now can it? The only times Pikmins grab should actually out prioritize an attack is when that attack doesn't kill them.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

^ Is the right? I thought the pikmin had the grab armor/priority/whatever you wanna call it, but Olimar doesn't.

 

[shairn]

Grab armor is good to avoid being beaten out by frame 1 moves

What's more frustrating, grab armor or being get-up shined out of grab?

 

[steelguttey]

It does have priority, it just doesn't show up as often as everyone elses because Pikmin have HP(in the from of how much percent they can take before dying). lol I mean a grab can't win over an attack if the grabber dies now can it? The only times Pikmins grab should actually out prioritize an attack is when that attack doesn't kill them.

thats not how it works sadly. if any attack hits olimar while he is grabbing the grab will release and olimar will be in hitstun

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Grab armor is good to avoid being beaten out by frame 1 moves

What's more frustrating, grab armor or being get-up shined out of grab?

I think grab armour is just silly though. 1 frame moves suck and are frustrating BUT that is what they are suppose to do.

If a big fire breathing turtle fully charges a smash attack, you should not be able to say "hey if i grab him, this 36% damage move that will blatantly kill me, ill be okay and punish him"

 

[DMG]

I don't like to rely on the x-factor that my opponent may not know the match up in order to win.

I'm not an advocate of trying to cheese someone on their lack of MU knowledge. My statement was more along the lines of "Well you could accept a sucky MU that may not really improve after a year of grinding, or you could have a secondary/switch mains AND possibly benefit from their lack of exp". Just pointing out the practical reality that with patches + fragmented representation, it's borderline impossible for anyone to know that much, and winning with multiple characters becomes possibly easier.

Goes against the point he argued (or was correlating to PM) that only .01 percent of players at the top truly benefit from that in Melee and the same would probably apply for PM. PM has way too many fluctuations at player skill, knowledge, variable stage lists, and patches to make the comparison to a 15 year old game with 0 patches.


Also total big LOL at grab armor discussion. Do you guys know what Melee grab armor is? Melee grab armor is literally "I win this trade and take 0%". Bowser Fsmash, Marth Fsmash, DK Punch, all grabbed on the same frame in PM and Melee, lead to this:

Melee: I take 0% and grab you, despite your hitbox

PM: I take some % and grab you

Go applaud PM for nerfing it jz. You didn't notice it in Melee often since grabs won entirely. Some grabs you assume were good spacing or timing, were actually sloppy and got the benefit of Melee's "Lol grabs auto win, 0% taken" mechanic


You could have Smash 4's version of grabbing, where attacks force the grab to break instead of grabs winning. Not sure how easy that would be to code.

olimar can also grab some characters while theyre holding ledge but nobody knows about that shh

He could do that in Brawl, jokes on you nerd!

 

[Boiko]

I'm not an advocate of trying to cheese someone on their lack of MU knowledge. My statement was more along the lines of "Well you could accept a sucky MU that may not really improve after a year of grinding, or you could have a secondary/switch mains AND possibly benefit from their lack of exp". Just pointing out the practical reality that with patches + fragmented representation, it's borderline impossible for anyone to know that much, and winning with multiple characters becomes possibly easier.

Goes against the point he argued (or was correlating to PM) that only .01 percent of players at the top truly benefit from that in Melee and the same would probably apply for PM. PM has way too many fluctuations at player skill, knowledge, variable stage lists, and patches to make the comparison to a 15 year old game with 0 patches.

That being said, I also think that very few people are playing match ups perfectly and nine times out of ten, people are losing because they'd rather blame the match up than recognize their own weaknesses as a player. I can say Ness:Marth is 35:65, but I really don't care because I've played one Marth who plays the match up like a 35:65 match up and I can still win because no one is perfect.

I really think that match up weaknesses are heavily overstated. PM allows you to get away with a more significant degree of autopilot. That autopilot may work on 90% of the cast, but it won't on the other 10%, and then you're going to complain that it's an impossible match up. I see this happen, and then I see players refuse to try anything different than their same autopilot routine. They lose because of their inability to adapt, not due to a match up that your opponent may not even be playing perfectly.

I don't think this is the case for everything, some match ups are tried and true difficult, but more often than not, I think people could just play better. But that's just like, my opinion.

 

[DMG]

That's definitely true. People in PM are more likely to blame a loss for character / MU reasons over any alternative like "Oh maybe he's better than me". Not a good look for the community

 

[CORY]

Cause MMmelee, but while your at it, can you explain why Butt grabs are a thing? Do keep in mind some things are cause of difficulties in taking it out. Such as olimar continuing to go through the throw animation after opponent breaks out, and the random chance of auto breaking out of diddy's command grab or getting tripped out of his command grab by his banana.

butt grabs are a thing because hitboxes. if the grab animation puts a hitbox far enough inside the grabber, any stray hurtbox that's near the grab will just, well, get grabbed.

which is annoying to me on a biased level, because 3.5 or something made ganon's grab match melee closer, which means that he lost FORWARD grab range and got more butt grabs. zero sense. i think peach and falcon also get a lot of butt grabs, due to the way they swing their arms as they grab.

 

[shairn]

I think grab armour is just silly though. 1 frame moves suck and are frustrating BUT that is what they are suppose to do.

If a big fire breathing turtle fully charges a smash attack, you should not be able to say "hey if i grab him, this 36% damage move that will blatantly kill me, ill be okay and punish him"

Well you do eat 36% damage which is definitely not "okay".

Anyway, if Bowser is doing a fully charged fsmash at you and you're in a position to grab him he deserves to get hella punished in the first place. You're actually pretty bad for letting the hitbox even hit you at the same time as you grab him lmao

 

[SOJ]

wtf is this guy trolling too hard? https://twitter.com/ShewGaming/status/662687907371548672

 

[Venom_909]

Falco might be easier than Melee due to power shield differences and more favorable stage choices but I can't remember the last time I played a really good Falco in PM (rarely see him on stream for other regions either, aside from Rcizzle Socal stuff). Venom_909 probably plays that MU way more and can explain it better.

Its a better MU then in melee in a lot of areas. Side B makes recovery much better. He feels like hes got a better chance at beating out falcos Aerials with Uair and even nair in pm. Laser is still uber annoying and the one thing that just flat out makes this mu hard. It really messes with your movement and Aerial options at certain zones.


Personally i think spacies are falcons biggest struggle in this game still. Yes you can destroy them off grabs. But with spot dodge shine / wake up shine / and their superior neutral its rough.

I have a marth so id rather just marth it up vs spacies in general. Grab armor OP

last set vs RCizzle at our Local https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZUU7CnBHp8

 

[AceGamer]

wtf is this guy trolling too hard? https://twitter.com/ShewGaming/status/662687907371548672

I'm dying right now, Link at the top!? Troll or not this is funny as hell lmao

 

[FreeGamer]

wtf is this guy trolling too hard? https://twitter.com/ShewGaming/status/662687907371548672

Looks like someone forgot to update from 3.02.

 

[Tomaster]

the random chance of auto breaking out of diddy's command grab

Yea that's pretty dumb, I never understood why that happens.

 

[AceGamer]

Looks like someone forgot to update from 3.02.

Lol the funniest thing is that this is probably for 3.6 tbh, Diddy and Pit are way too low for this to be representing 3.02

 

[Soft Serve]

Cause MMmelee, but while your at it, can you explain why Butt grabs are a thing? Do keep in mind some things are cause of difficulties in taking it out. Such as olimar continuing to go through the throw animation after opponent breaks out, and the random chance of auto breaking out of diddy's command grab or getting tripped out of his command grab by his banana.

you mean the mashing out? Its ridiculously easy to mash out at lower%s. I think the only time it gets randomly broken is with platforms on fod

 

[DrinkingFood]

Please tell me how eating a smash attack with a grab is proper game mechanics.

Why?