Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K71QhxuUosI

Here it is

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is anyone gonna mention sonic's terrible air speed? I mean lets compare sonic to say... captain falcon. Then tell me why sonic is not on the same level as falcon.

Sonic has bad air speed and (i feel like) very poor kill options almost to marthritus levels.

what the **** are you talking about, I'm pretty sure sonic's airspeed is either higher or almost identical to falcon's airspeed

wait what kind of airspeed? Like distance out of a running jump? Drifting ability? max air speed (what your air speed degrades to from your running momentum/what you get max out of double jump)? there are lots of different kinds

but I just tested dashing/running jump distances. Out of first frame of dash, falcon goes slightly farther (about 5 units, half a block of training room, sonic goes 6.5 blocks and falcon goes 7) out of full run, sonic goes slightly farther (falcon goes about 7.3 blocks, sonic goes 7.5). I didn't test for sonics max run speed, just the run speed he gets after he leaves dash. iirc his run speed increases dramatically over the length of his run but that's rarely ever relevant.

we could easily pull airspeed/momentum conservation values out of PSA but i'm lazy so I haven't learned how to use PSA yet

 

[DMG]

Falcon's CC is not that bad. It kind of depends on the situation, because some pokes and aerials you can simply CC and then JC grab at them. Defensively it also may be better to CC or ASDI down delayed / multi hit options so you can get a shield out if you mess up. Ivy Bair, Roy Side B as examples. He doesn't have Roy Dtilt to spam or a large grab range, but his burst movement after CC (along with great conversion potential from SH aerials and grabs in general) is not totally weak

 

[prem]

Okay i might've exagerrated how bad they are, but his options out of cc are definitely on the weaker side of the cast.

 

[Soft Serve]

People are forgetting how good falcons bair is
It antiairs fox jump ins, disjoint, can jump after it or waveland, and with good pivots and rars it's always a threat. Super good bair.

@Nausicaa that's a hard request for diddy because the top players play so different
Here's aero who plays more movement and air control based with popgun agt jank vs Kaos's m2 in a more air control mu
https://youtu.be/ONo_lVAI6yI

And here's June vs plup in another one of diddy's harder mus
https://youtu.be/_yImzbi82Pg

For lucario any recent ipk set would work, probably him vs sterokids(2nd set, In top 8 paragon) and then him v hbox at paragon

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I have awoken... and holy crap I've missed a lot of Sonic stuff... Oh yeah and _Chrome Star doesn't really go on here and Gab should be put on the side of a milk carton or something because I haven't seen him in ages.

I've set down the whiskey for now but that doesn't mean I'll be able to give my take on everything right now. I'll probably edit this post a bunch to bring it up to snuff.

Now for the fact drop. Lol.

Sonic and Falcon are indeed very different characters. Sonic's ground game is very strong, while Falcon's is very weak. In neutral, it's not a good idea to go into the air as Sonic unless you know you can hit them. Sonic likes to command space with his dash dance (which is very long); since it is long it invades and threatens space really well, similar to how Luigi threatens space with his ridiculous wave dash. Going into the air as Falcon is a lot better since his fall speed means he can weave in and out of spaces faster and put out more low-lag-big-hitbox moves per second. Going into the air as Sonic is a commitment and is easier to react to since he can't zip around so fast, this problem (the commitment) is exacerbated when Sonic doesn't have a move like Falcon's nair or uair (Sonic's fair seems promising in neutral at a first glance but it's flimsy). Sure, Sonic's dair is hella tight and becomes an incredible part of his punish game as well in certain matchups (I find it's underused in general), but it's not something to crutch on in neutral. You're so fast on the ground that it's best to stick to that.

Player -0 is right about the matchup spreads. Fox and Falco is kinda brutal in theory but knowing your punishes on them is extremely important. Fun fact, BA (blast attack) offstage isn't as good against spacies as we (most people) think it is. There's so much counterplay in the matchup (assuming good experience on both sides) that it's super duper intense. Really fun. Sonic's matchups don't get much worse than Fox/Falco (40 : 60 if you like numbers; I don't [actually Falco might be almost even when I think about it more]), but also don't get better than the reciprocal.

Sonic's platform game isn't that great in my opinion. His wave dash isn't particularly impressive, so wave lands kinda suck :[. Also, even using wave lands he's floaty so it's hard to weave back into their space. I'm probably making his platform game seem bad, but it's not a central part of his game. He's also floaty and has terrible moves to wall out opponents; he doesn't have a Fox/Falco bair, Ivy bair, or ZSS bair. In fact, Sonic's bair is one of the worst in the game probably since it was nerfed eons ago.

I think T tasteless gentleman meant that Sonic is slower in the air than Falcon because he is floatier... although yes, DrinkingFood is right in saying Falcon retains slightly more momentum in the air out of run (airspeed). Also, Sonic's top run speed is 4.0 or some bs like that and IIRC Falcon's is about 2.6, but yeah, unfortunately, he never really reaches 4.0 run speed except for when he goes all the way across FD... super useful (*eye roll*).

DMG Right now, I don't think Sonic could be considered top tier. I don't have good Diddy experience, but Sonic loses to MK and Fox, as well as Roy, Marth and Samus (just some examples offhand). Valuing perfect play, yeah mayybe Sonic would be so hard to hit that he could be top tier but in the same facet I feel like perfect play means perfect coverage/zoning with hitboxes so he'd get beat out a lot.

Although, it's DMG, so he might be making a joke reference to how Samus players think she's top tier in Melee. Not sure if trolling or serious...

Also, negatively disjointed hitboxes have been fixed completely (IIRC). Dtilt was buffed as well as nair, and I believe all of his other moves are aight with the hitboxes; I haven't studied them in awhile... time to catch up.

Edit: _Chrome Basically said it about the differences between Sonic and Falcon... he's played me so much that he basically knows everything about him except for little finicky things. Their edge guard games are super different as well (just saying). Some characters Falcon's good at edge guarding, I feel Sonic kinda sucks at

Edit: Maybe we can get @Karma! up in here.

TL;DR Sonic and Falcon are super different. Sonic has no ambiguity of movement in the air; it's super committal so it's not so great and neither is his platform game because of his wave dash. I don't consider him top tier, even though my opinion on him is cyclical, so it could come around, but I do consider him viable. Yeah, we need to get more mathematical about our neutrals/punishes (like Falcon w/ 20GX), but I do try to play as optimally as I can.

Oh yeah, and I do have a mental list of characters I consider better than Sonic, if anyone cares to have some semblance of an actual /tier list/ speculation xD.

And Falcon's design is so dumb. Literally. Dumb.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Well junebug is confirmed for tipped off xi this weekend along with reflex, ripple, fatality, and 30+ other great players to derive some matchup experience from, so should be good for more recent videos, outside of that from the videos I seen, a lot of diddy mains are using the sky more, and getting better conversions from the dd situations.

 

[Player -0]

A bunch of Sonics use homing attack to edgeguard and it's kinda gross. You can get the same result for a little more work and a lot less risk. I guess it isn't as stylish though. I mean, you CAN reverse the HA before it locks on so if it doesn't lock on you gucch but eh.

As far as how air speed (like max air speed, moving 1 direction) Falcon definitely(?) feels faster than Sonic. Could be me getting it mixed up with Falcon's fast fall vs. Sonic's a bit (because diagonal movement, durp) but I don't think so. Like, Sonic's DJ starts going sideways KINDA then you're slowly drifting really slowly (doesn't Sonic have one of the slowest drift speeds? I might be spreading misinfo lol). Falcon's you kinda spin and then stay going forward.

Pro explanation.

I disagree with platform movement and Sonic having trouble in the air though. If you're in a neutral situation (kinda important, if you're getting hit then your options vary a bit) you can (obviously) Side B, empty land, waveland, and DJ -> waveland platform. Wavelanding on platforms goes a fair distance, often enough to push you off the edge of a platform and going far enough to avoid grabs. Also Up-B -> Dair to top platform/ground is gahlk. Get read by Marth for free tippers though lol. If you're high enough for Side B to not be a good option to retain mobility Dair is pretty much the go to that makes up for a slow fast fall. Having a slow fast fall but a stall (doesn't really stall like Brawl derp) then fall works with Sonic's kit really well.

Sonic's walls are interesting. He doesn't have immediate moves but conjunction of empty hops, Bairs, and movement it works. Walling out to wall out is kind of limiting to yourself though. You should be walling out as both of a defensive and aggressive thing and a lot of times being defensive on wall outs (it's called wall out, confusion is easy?) leads to a lot of harm due to giving up stage control.

Edit - Like you SH at an opponent (with dash momentum) and they shield. You waveland on the platform as they shield because lolezshieldbait. You can then drop platform -> Fair (meteor) a WD OoS or as a read to an aerial OoS to hit you on the platform (stuff'd). You can also run off platform (if you didn't waveland off the platform) and then Side B towards them if you get approach, land and reset to neutral with opponent shielding (applying pressure, just don't misspace or get bopped by WD OoS/aerial OoS. Or at least be ready to grab/whatev).

Mini example of how platform movement works really well for Sonic. You just have to tie it in with ground movement and do it with purpose. Like dash dancing but not just dash dancing.

 

[Jamble]

I think the point where people got hung up on the Sonic/Falcon discussion is that a comparison at all between Falcon and Sonic just seems off the wall. Yes, they're both fast aggressive characters, but they play just so differently, that a comparison to Falcon is not a great metric for Sonic's effectiveness as a character, because there's not a whole lot of overlap when it comes to actually executing their respective strategies. It feels a little bit like comparing apples to cinnamon waffles.

The best characters to compare in an actual constructive conversation (not a "why is so and so good, my character is bad" discussion) I feel is generally some character that both has some overlap in style, and something in their toolkit that would actually have a place in the other character's. It would make no sense for me to point out Bowser's problems and generally lesser tiering, and point at Charizard's glide special as justification for why there's no reason to play Bowser. I really hope we can all agree a flying ability would make no sense on Bowser. While aerial combat is something Charizard technically has on Bowser, it's not a relevant point when trying to figure out how to help Bowser out.

Just my two cents.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Player -0 It's hard for me to explain this but yes, in neutral, I do use the air and platforms, I just don't think it's something that needs to be worked on so so much in Sonic's game. For example, in the Fox match up I find wavel ands to be incredibly useful in opening up mix ups and ways to get in his defense. If I short hop at Fox, he might think I'm going to nair him, so he might anti-air or dash back to punish me on landing. If I wave land back (or down, depending on the spacing) I can punish or gain stage control, respectively. Platforms help in this mix up. Other mix ups include full hopping, with dair, wave lands, and down/side b being viable options. However, I think grounded neutral game should be the focus for any Sonic, especially in this match up. Air and platform movement only serve as tools to eff him up and net me some advantage when dash dancing is getting stale and I can't break through. It's a way for me to push the envelope, press through and force an opening.

And BA/HA offstage is nice if you want to set up into fair meteor or to get to areas you can't normally reach, but it is overrated by a lot of people I find. Recently however a lot of Sonics have been maintaining it's not so hot (counter play has developed to the point where the risk reward isn't always worth it a lot of the time). And for anyone who didn't know, what he means by b reversing it is that if you whack the side of the stage you're put into lag but not special fall. If you b-reverse when over the ledge it is possible to just land back on stage with significant lag. Better than dying lol.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

since people have been saying stuff since like 3.0

what are the reasons why falcon is better in PM than in melee?
is he objectively better because of aerial changes/mechanic changes/side-b grabbing the ledge?
or is he just comparatively more useful against a broader scope of the cast?

 

[nimigoha]

I think Falcon is good because he's tailored to the DD heavy meta of the game, his Nair is still incredible and he has great kill conversions off D/Uthrow. Raptor Boost is a legit recovery move, Gentleman is better...

And nipple spike sets people on fire which is reason enough.

But really any character that can DD with a great run speed and power through neutral with an aerial and get kills off of grab at reasonably low percents is going to do well.

 

[_Chrome]

I'm of the belief that Falcon is better in PM than in Melee because he preforms better against a larger scale of the cast. He is still good against a lot of the buffed Melee characters, retains his MUs against the Melee top tiers, and is incredibly fast for some of the slower Brawl characters, or he has an overall very flat MU spread. This is exacerbated by the fact that his punish game is virtually the same against the entire cast plus he works well on the tournament stages. Falcon is more consistent in PM than in Melee since he is more likely to see a neutral or positive MU rather than playing a losing one like Fox.

Furthermore, Falcon has a good showing in PM right now since his simple meta-game is pretty much fully developed compared to some of the newer characters, so he's gonna tear it up for a while. This is also due to the fact that PM has easier controls than Melee so some Melee players who find Falcon fun will use him in PM instead of their main (so as not to be affected by the small physics difference).

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'm of the belief that Falcon is better in PM than in Melee because he preforms better against a larger scale of the cast. He is still good against a lot of the buffed Melee characters, retains his MUs against the Melee top tiers, and is incredibly fast for some of the slower Brawl characters, or he has an overall very flat MU spread. This is exacerbated by the fact that his punish game is virtually the same against the entire cast plus he works well on the tournament stages. Falcon is more consistent in PM than in Melee since he is more likely to see a neutral or positive MU rather than playing a losing one like Fox.

Furthermore, Falcon has a good showing in PM right now since his simple meta-game is pretty much fully developed compared to some of the newer characters, so he's gonna tear it up for a while. This is also due to the fact that PM has easier controls than Melee so some Melee players who find Falcon fun will use him in PM instead of their main (so as not to be affected by the small physics difference).

I think that falcon's design is a weird 1 size fits all.

Projectiles? Nair through them and then use your amazing frame data to beat them into a knee.
Slow character? DD until they commit, you never need to commit ever.
Anything else? Shoot i dont have to commit and can still apply pressure until i win neutral and then super combo into a knee.
Oh your gonna edge guard me by hitting me? I hope that PM jank priority armour doesnt let me grab you instead of me taking knockback.
Oh you picked FD? Sweet ill DD until you commit, run in with a nair, hit your shield, run out before you can react. Bait the punish that you never could have got, Grab you then ill do Uair, Uair, nair, nair, uair, soft nair sweet nair for the ko and the crowd will be going crazy because it was a knee.

 

[eideeiit]

Also Falcon's frame data isn't that awesome. It's not bad by any means, but amazing? Jab is actually fast with frame 3, but that can be asdi down'd to shield or something before the 3rd hit like infinitely. His nair is out frame 7 and upair frame 6, but when you count the jump squat those effectively become f11 and 10. His ftilt is f9 and dtilt f10 early hitboxes, full range on f11. Grab is the semi-universal f7.

Again: Pretty good - Yes. Awesome - No.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Also Falcon's frame data isn't that awesome. It's not bad by any means, but amazing? Jab is actually fast with frame 3, but that can be asdi down'd to shield or something before the 3rd hit like infinitely. His nair is out frame 7 and upair frame 6, but when you count the jump squat those effectively become f11 and 10. His ftilt is f9 and dtilt f10 early hitboxes, full range on f11. Grab is the semi-universal f7.

Again: Pretty good - Yes. Awesome - No.

Nice but i was not referring to start up. i was referring to end lag, hense the noncommittal in and out nairs i was talking about earlier. But i do agree his start is not bad at all. Heres how i know if im going against a bad falcon and will win. Did he use dash attack or raptor boost (or any move outside of air or grabs) if he does then ill win. But due to who i main, a 100% no committment falcon who uses only the 8-10 moves needed will win just because certain characters can't reach/catch falcon.

I think T tasteless gentleman meant that Sonic is slower in the air than Falcon because he is floatier... although yes, DrinkingFood is right in saying Falcon retains slightly more momentum in the air out of run (airspeed). Also, Sonic's top run speed is 4.0 or some bs like that and IIRC Falcon's is about 2.6, but yeah, unfortunately, he never really reaches 4.0 run speed except for when he goes all the way across FD... super useful (*eye roll*).

And Falcon's design is so dumb. Literally. Dumb.

THIS But i will also say that drinking foods tests were skewed because falcon falls faster, so even though he has way more momentum, sonic is (in theory) in the air longer and thus getting more distance because of it.

If you took this in consideration ill concede and say im sorry BUT since you mention the distance gained from the jumps i am going to think that you only took the distance gained into consideration.

Maybe this is why no one understands my falcon comparisons because i was taking other things into consideration.




EDIT

Dont post giant things of salt, it makes things hard to quote and is bad for my blood pressure

 

[DMG]

Falcon is a bit better due to mechanic changes and character buffs. I think people overrate his MU spread a bit, because people either too liberally assume his tools win (left right left right) OR they take the line that having tools of his quality can let you comeback vs basically any "real" disadvantage so they softly rate stuff 50:50.

Falcon doesn't often come across significant MU threats in bracket, but I think that's more about the fragmented state of PM representation at this point. Not every region has multiple x bad MU's waiting for you in tourney: this is true for a lot of good characters. Wolf may be a total d-bag to your character, but there's like what, 3 Wolf players? 3 MK players? M-Diddy-V-A and then only 1-2 Diddy players in other areas? Etc

PM Nationals have a bigger chance of true representation playing out, but even those atm are heavy dice roll rng based on how your bracket turns out. Stuff like that may make Falcon artificially better than he realistically would be with more evened representation

 

[Player -0]

What? This is Tier List Speculation.

This is THE thread for salt.

 

[Boiko]

The obvious player candidates for these respectively are IPK, Junebug, and Zhime. I remember IPK's sets vs. Ness (Sterokidd IIRC) were considered instructive on how to adapt to fighting Ness; were those recorded?

Yes. On AZPM Stereo beats him, on TLOC(? whatever Paragon's main stream was), IPK beats Stereo. Stereo has a habit of baiting you to chase him to the corner, and then jumping and coming down with PK Fire. It sounds simple and easily countered, but it works really well against a lot of top players. IPK beat that by using run up shield, which Stereo didn't have a counter for at the time. If Ness full hops, he's generally committing to PK Fire. So just run>shield>punish. He can't really do much else at that point.

If I full hop and someone comes dashing up to me, I generally disengage, because I'll lose that exchange 9/10 times.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Falcon is a bit better due to mechanic changes and character buffs. I think people overrate his MU spread a bit, because people either too liberally assume his tools win (left right left right) OR they take the line that having tools of his quality can let you comeback vs basically any "real" disadvantage so they softly rate stuff 50:50.

Falcon doesn't often come across significant MU threats in bracket, but I think that's more about the fragmented state of PM representation at this point. Not every region has multiple x bad MU's waiting for you in tourney: this is true for a lot of good characters. Wolf may be a total d-bag to your character, but there's like what, 3 Wolf players? 3 MK players? M-Diddy-V-A and then only 1-2 Diddy players in other areas? Etc

PM Nationals have a bigger chance of true representation playing out, but even those atm are heavy dice roll rng based on how your bracket turns out. Stuff like that may make Falcon artificially better than he realistically would be with more evened representation

Maybe it is because of who i main, but all those characters are suppose to be really bad for bowser... plus fox and falcon and shiek... actually i am gonna stop because we all know bowser has 2 winning match ups atm.

 

[Life]

Falcon is a bit better due to mechanic changes and character buffs. I think people overrate his MU spread a bit, because people either too liberally assume his tools win (left right left right) OR they take the line that having tools of his quality can let you comeback vs basically any "real" disadvantage so they softly rate stuff 50:50.

Falcon doesn't often come across significant MU threats in bracket, but I think that's more about the fragmented state of PM representation at this point. Not every region has multiple x bad MU's waiting for you in tourney: this is true for a lot of good characters. Wolf may be a total d-bag to your character, but there's like what, 3 Wolf players? 3 MK players? M-Diddy-V-A and then only 1-2 Diddy players in other areas? Etc

PM Nationals have a bigger chance of true representation playing out, but even those atm are heavy dice roll rng based on how your bracket turns out. Stuff like that may make Falcon artificially better than he realistically would be with more evened representation

Are Fox, Falco, and Sheik still considered problem matchups for Falcon?

 

[DMG]

Texas is very low on Spacies / great Spacies, so I can't confidently say how either MU has improved or stayed the same. My gut feeling is that Fox is closest to even out of that trio of characters for a couple of reasons. Noticeably improved stage access (more walls for recovery, being able to ban FoD or other stages in 3/5 sets, etc), the obvious Fox nerfs, and the slight Falcon buffs could feasibly give him an even MU or very close to even MU with Fox on some stages imo. Playing Milkman at Aftershock in PM gave me a bit of that impression for example.


Falco might be easier than Melee due to power shield differences and more favorable stage choices but I can't remember the last time I played a really good Falco in PM (rarely see him on stream for other regions either, aside from Rcizzle Socal stuff). @Venom_909 probably plays that MU way more and can explain it better.


Sheik I have no idea honestly. If Sheik Falcon was 7:3 in Melee (some people rate it less harsh for Falcon in Melee but assume that as a baseline), any rating from 65:35 to 55:45 sounds possible in PM depending on how you see her crawl, nerfs, and stage choices impacting the MU. Not a MU I have grinded out with someone like Umbreon so take it for what it is.


I don't think any of those characters are "bracket enders" for Falcon like they kind of are in Melee (Falco + Sheik the notorious ceiling for him to defeat in Melee). Probably loses all 3 but much more on the side of winnable disadvantage vs severe uphill fight.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Texas is very low on Spacies / great Spacies, so I can't confidently say how either MU has improved or stayed the same. My gut feeling is that Fox is closest to even out of that trio of characters for a couple of reasons. Noticeably improved stage access (more walls for recovery, being able to ban FoD or other stages in 3/5 sets, etc), the obvious Fox nerfs, and the slight Falcon buffs could feasibly give him an even MU or very close to even MU with Fox on some stages imo. Playing Milkman at Aftershock in PM gave me a bit of that impression for example.


Falco might be easier than Melee due to power shield differences and more favorable stage choices but I can't remember the last time I played a really good Falco in PM (rarely see him on stream for other regions either, aside from Rcizzle Socal stuff). @Venom_909 probably plays that MU way more and can explain it better.


Sheik I have no idea honestly. If Sheik Falcon was 7:3 in Melee (some people rate it less harsh for Falcon in Melee but assume that as a baseline), any rating from 65:35 to 55:45 sounds possible in PM depending on how you see her crawl, nerfs, and stage choices impacting the MU. Not a MU I have grinded out with someone like Umbreon so take it for what it is.


I don't think any of those characters are "bracket enders" for Falcon like they kind of are in Melee (Falco + Sheik the notorious ceiling for him to defeat in Melee). Probably loses all 3 but much more on the side of winnable disadvantage vs severe uphill fight.

Im trying to think, how bad is the falcon/DDD match up? I feel like DDD gimps falcon until he cries, but DDD has trouble getting to falcon.

 

[DMG]

I'm not sure D3 is even a real character at this point.

Every non-Ripple D3 player I've played across various patches have been fairly comfortable wins. Never had the chance or took the time to play Ripple a lot 1 v 1. I think he played Darc's Falcon some, but that might have been 3.5 and pretty sure D3's worse off now somehow. Like Ripple once said, "PMDT finally achieved their goal of making D3 low tier"

Past rating: 50-50 or 55-45 D3 favor at Ripple level (My guess at this point looking back on the "better" versions of D3)

Current rating (D3 sucks and think Ripple quit / dropped him): 6:4 Falcon Favor

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'm not sure D3 is even a real character at this point.

Every non-Ripple D3 player I've played across various patches have been fairly comfortable wins. Never had the chance or took the time to play Ripple a lot 1 v 1. I think he played Darc's Falcon some, but that might have been 3.5 and pretty sure D3's worse off now somehow. Like Ripple once said, "PMDT finally achieved their goal of making D3 low tier"

Past rating: 50-50 or 55-45 D3 favor at Ripple level (My guess at this point looking back on the "better" versions of D3)

Current rating (D3 sucks and think Ripple quit / dropped him): 6:4 Falcon Favor

Do you feel like this is an issue when ripple/low tier heroes drop/quit because of "changes"?

Is sethlon still playing pm roy?

Why is bowser favored over other characters (representation wise) despite being "worse off"?

Does falcon even need other moves besides air attacks and grabs?'

Is DK's punish game really that good when other character can punish HIM harder?

Is charizard is a good place or is he lacking a tool needed to approach/recover?

Will fox always be S+ tier?

Who even uses pit anymore?

I think these are questions that are most thought provoking.

I feel like we should not be nerfing characters anymore. Changes are good and often needed. But when the scales of balancing goes from buffs to nerfs then i feel like thats when we are gonna lose players. I mean i agree on pm being a great fun game and better than melee, but the nerfs are agonizing at times.

 

[_Chrome]

As a whole, I feel like Charizard is an incomplete character (I hope Charizard mains don't take this the wrong way). While he can run fast, he falls slowly and his air speed doesn't help him out either. His glide really hasn't been great for ages and while he's meant to take his enemies to the skies he really isn't fast enough or have enough aggressive tools to allow him to do this as often as he ought to.

So what is Charizard? Well, he's supposed to be the fast, aerial heavyweight. I mean c'mon... He's the f*cking Dragon Pokémon. Yet because of his lack of being able to be aggressive (which also sucks from a design point of view) he is relegated to nair camping and fruitlessly dash-dancing until the opponent screws up.

He has no real approach options, besides rar nair or bair, and baiting the opponent so he can grab them (just like almost every character does). In many cases I'm forced to play positionally and space the nairs, ftilts, jabs, and dtilts in neutral. That does not sound aggressive to me.

What holds him back from being what he ought to be? His relatively low air speed, his incredulously high floatiness, and lack of a good approach option even on the ground. Despite his long neck, his grab isn't remarkable either.

What we're left with is a kinda almost fast, sorta sluggish character that wants to be aggressive but can't be. My opinion is that they can make him faster falling with better air speed for starters. Maybe give him another jump too. If he's meant to be airborne, 2 midair jumps aren't gonna do too much. And if you're wondering where I get this design philosophy from the PM website says it all.

For his apparent incomplete design I dropped my best/and most developed main, Charizard, because he wasn't competitive and he felt like he was missing too many things. It was not fun when I really wanted to get better and my main held me back as a player. This is a character that the PMDT has no idea what to do with I guess.

For the record, I love this character, but he needs a lot given to him for me to consider using him again.

EDIT: QUICK ANSWER TIME!

No DK's punish game is very Falcon-esque. One punish fits all kind of style. Nothing needed to change there.

Falcon really does only need air attacks and grab. Everyone has a pocket Falcon for a reason. At a higher level this could be different of course but the jist of it is that that's all he needs to win neutral/and punish in many scenarios.

Just to clarify, Roy is not bad in PM. If Sethlon really did drop him it's because he's salty about 3.6's gamestate and quit because of salt related reasons iirc.

 

[DMG]

Only cool kids have a good pocket Falcon tho

 

[_Chrome]

Only cool kids have a good pocket Falcon tho

I was about to put on my sun glasses but then I reread your comment... you said "good pocket Falcon".

 

[Ripple]

When players are the sole reason for changes or lack of changes, there is a huge issue.

 

[Bazkip]

If Sheik Falcon was 7:3 in Melee

What the christ that MU is absolutely nowhere near that. Sheik vs Ganon is an actual 7:3 in Melee, Falcon has so many more tools and options than Ganon in that matchup. Using that as a baseline is completely skewed.

The Melee Falcon sucks circlejerk is a such a giant load of horse****.

 

[Life]

^This is why matchup numbers are dumb.

My previous understanding of Falcon Sheik is that it's a more extreme version of Marth Sheik, i.e. a matchup that gets dramatically harder in low level play but isn't too bad when both players are at the top level. I just figured I'd ask, since I don't play either of those characters (but I do play Marth) so I didn't wanna put my foot in my mouth.

When players are the sole reason for changes or lack of changes, there is a huge issue.

Shoutouts to Wizzrobe. Also, somewhat more biased shoutouts to Armada and Zero.

_Chrome I feel your pain. You sound like me complaining about Pit tbh. I personally don't mind the DD grab and space style of play because I come from Marth, but hey, different strokes.

 

[DMG]

What the christ that MU is absolutely nowhere near that. Sheik vs Ganon is an actual 7:3 in Melee, Falcon has so many more tools and options than Ganon in that matchup. Using that as a baseline is completely skewed.

The Melee Falcon sucks circlejerk is a such a giant load of horse****.

Well what would you call it, taking into account the difficulty of other character MU's? A MU that historically has held back Falcon at the National Level by an exceptional margin, is not one I would lightly call 6:4 for example.

If you're saying I'm 5 points off, that's not a huge leap once you get past the 6:4 margin anyways. Every 5 point jump from that point begins to mean less and less of a practical difference for the winning chances of the losing character imo.

Sue me for slight pessimism when I look at the corpses M2K and others leave of Falcon players in the MU

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Isn't it funny that Charizard is only 5'7'' and he's one of the biggest characters in the game?

I mean, I know they did it for scaling; Charizard's always seen as big in Pokémon and so it'd be weird to see him so small but I just think it's a little funny.

I too find him lacking in a lot of areas. He's pretty bad, only good against people who don't know the matchup/are noobs.

And Sheik : Falcon is pretty even at top level. Wikipedia may say otherwise, but it's really not that bad. Even at mid level play it's not 7 : 3 anymore imo.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

^This is why matchup numbers are dumb.

My previous understanding of Falcon Sheik is that it's a more extreme version of Marth Sheik, i.e. a matchup that gets dramatically harder in low level play but isn't too bad when both players are at the top level. I just figured I'd ask, since I don't play either of those characters (but I do play Marth) so I didn't wanna put my foot in my mouth.



Shoutouts to Wizzrobe. Also, somewhat more biased shoutouts to Armada and Zero.

_Chrome I feel your pain. You sound like me complaining about Pit tbh. I personally don't mind the DD grab and space style of play because I come from Marth, but hey, different strokes.

Wait is this legit why pit and sonic were nerfed?
Who the hell made/got salty over bowser lol.\

But in seriousness, i dont think its reasonable to judge a character off of someone like armada or zero. They could have picked up any character and started eating souls. It just so happened to be pit.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Sonic was legit stupid in 2.5/2.6. He was basically unhittable, had guaranteed tech follow-ups, and had down b turnaround bair (pre nerf to both moves) which killed super early and reliably. He was a lot faster than he is now. Also, he had bar none the best recovery in the game. Wizzrobe may have showed us how dumb he was, but it wasn't because of him the character was nerfed. Wizzy wasn't even near optimized, especially with his punishes. He was good, and I'm not trying to knock his success, but there were a lot of things he could have done better.

 

[_Chrome]

It's not that I dislike dash dancing and spacing, it just feels inappropriate on Charizard. He should be more aggressive. As it stands he's like a bad Marth.

 

[Bazkip]

Well what would you call it, taking into account the difficulty of other character MU's? A MU that historically has held back Falcon at the National Level by an exceptional margin, is not one I would lightly call 6:4 for example.

If you're saying I'm 5 points off, that's not a huge leap once you get past the 6:4 margin anyways. Every 5 point jump from that point begins to mean less and less of a practical difference for the winning chances of the losing character imo.

Sue me for slight pessimism when I look at the corpses M2K and otherS leave of Falcon players in the MU

I think it's 6:4 at worst. I think Falcons need to step the **** up. Currently, all the best Sheik manis are better than the best Falcon mains by a significant margin. Hax was the only one in the more recent history of Melee to reach that top level, and so we've got a limited amount of examples of the MU at that level. As good as Hax was he (and nobody) is perfect, nobody's going to being able to play the matchup exactly how it's supposed to play out every time. It's entirely possible he personally struggled in that matchup more so than the actual character matchup goes, that's no uncommon even at top level.

The example I brought was Ganon's matchup with Sheik, so I'll continue with that. There's no way Sheik vs Falcon and vs Ganon are both 7:3, I mean I guess you could say it's even worse for Ganon but I'm pretty sure even the top Ganon mains would disagree with that lol.

tl;dr cause this is getting a bit off topic, I'd say it comes out to advantage Sheik in Melee, and slight advantage Sheik in PM. It's definitely nowhere near unwinnable in either.

 

[JOE!]

As a whole, I feel like Charizard is an incomplete character (I hope Charizard mains don't take this the wrong way). While he can run fast, he falls slowly and his air speed doesn't help him out either. His glide really hasn't been great for ages and while he's meant to take his enemies to the skies he really isn't fast enough or have enough aggressive tools to allow him to do this as often as he ought to.

So what is Charizard? Well, he's supposed to be the fast, aerial heavyweight. I mean c'mon... He's the f*cking Dragon Pokémon. Yet because of his lack of being able to be aggressive (which also sucks from a design point of view) he is relegated to nair camping and fruitlessly dash-dancing until the opponent screws up.

He has no real approach options, besides rar nair or bair, and baiting the opponent so he can grab them (just like almost every character does). In many cases I'm forced to play positionally and space the nairs, ftilts, jabs, and dtilts in neutral. That does not sound aggressive to me.

What holds him back from being what he ought to be? His relatively low air speed, his incredulously high floatiness, and lack of a good approach option even on the ground. Despite his long neck, his grab isn't remarkable either.

What we're left with is a kinda almost fast, sorta sluggish character that wants to be aggressive but can't be. My opinion is that they can make him faster falling with better air speed for starters. Maybe give him another jump too. If he's meant to be airborne, 2 midair jumps aren't gonna do too much. And if you're wondering where I get this design philosophy from the PM website says it all.

For his apparent incomplete design I dropped my best/and most developed main, Charizard, because he wasn't competitive and he felt like he was missing too many things. It was not fun when I really wanted to get better and my main held me back as a player. This is a character that the PMDT has no idea what to do with I guess.

For the record, I love this character, but he needs a lot given to him for me to consider using him again.

EDIT: QUICK ANSWER TIME!

No DK's punish game is very Falcon-esque. One punish fits all kind of style. Nothing needed to change there.

Falcon really does only need air attacks and grab. Everyone has a pocket Falcon for a reason. At a higher level this could be different of course but the jist of it is that that's all he needs to win neutral/and punish in many scenarios.

Just to clarify, Roy is not bad in PM. If Sethlon really did drop him it's because he's salty about 3.6's gamestate and quit because of salt related reasons iirc.

 

[G. Stache]

Hey, I'm new to the PM scene and I was just wondering: how good is Luigi in this game? I mean, I'm going to use him regardless of his viability, but knowing how he stacks up to the rest of the cast would be nice to know.

 

[Life]

Hey, I'm new to the PM scene and I was just wondering: how good is Luigi in this game? I mean, I'm going to use him regardless of his viability, but knowing how he stacks up to the rest of the cast would be nice to know.

Luigi is good enough to win tournaments, though that describes most of the cast.

He's overall not a bad choice. IIRC there's Dong, who I wanna say is from Texas somewhere? And there's the one from AZ which is ilovebagels. Both of them have done some pretty impressive stuff.

You can learn a decent amount from matching Melee Luigis as well, though like all Melee characters there are some differences (wavedash->walk works differently, there are changes to his specials). Some well-known Melee Luigis are Abate, Vudujin, Eddy Mexico, Blea Gelo, and Vist.

Luigi is great at punishing people for overextending, since he has a tendency to float out of combos, combined with that sick nair of his that overzealous combo fiends will bash their head against repeatedly. He can threaten a ton of grounded space with his long wavedash (make sure to try to get the best possible angle on your wavedashes so they're as long as possible). He can nail early kills with upB or misfire, he's got some very solid edgeguarding (one of the places the Melee stuff applies most), and his recovery was nerfed a bit in 3.6 but it's still far from useless. On the other hand, his aerial mobility is very poor, and his reach is merely okay which means you'll have trouble against sword characters at first (but it's the kind of weakness that eventually teaches you skills that compensate for it and goes away).

I don't know where he is in the grand scheme of things in terms of raw power level, but he's pretty good.

It's not that I dislike dash dancing and spacing, it just feels inappropriate on Charizard. He should be more aggressive. As it stands he's like a bad Marth.

Fair enough. I think he'd benefit a lot from being able to carry more ground momentum into his jumps, then.

Also re: Wizzrobe, yeah Sonic needed nerfed, but he took it personally, is what I'm getting at.