Tier List Speculation

[Y2Kay]

Nothing in this game ever changes, never will it ever change from here, as it has never changed before.
Your only hope then is to take the wild guess at who the top of the game is or forever be doomed to learn something that you can not possibly ever translate or incorporate or use as context to understand in another way, the things you would do with the character you'd eventually switch to, effectively wasting all of the life that you take to make this game a part of your life.

Therefore, your only safe and sound option, is the only stable thing that will FOR SURE CHANGE

Because it is so OP
Because it has been going on far too long
Because it is the undeniable
The ultimate diety
The only one true threat
The forever anti-meta
The Ooze


This character is the only Sure-Bet you have, because it WILL change into a fast character with a shine and laser, or something of that nature, because it is too strong in it's current incarnation, and together we must unite to put an end to it by PM patch 4.0

Unite with us.

Feel the tiers.

Let them into your heart and your mind and your blood.

Bleed the tiers, breathe the tears back in again...

The Ooze is strong in you. You just have to let it in... or out.

I'm so confused right now........

 

[The Baron]

Nothing in this game ever changes, never will it ever change from here, as it has never changed before.
Your only hope then is to take the wild guess at who the top of the game is or forever be doomed to learn something that you can not possibly ever translate or incorporate or use as context to understand in another way, the things you would do with the character you'd eventually switch to, effectively wasting all of the life that you take to make this game a part of your life.

Therefore, your only safe and sound option, is the only stable thing that will FOR SURE CHANGE

Because it is so OP
Because it has been going on far too long
Because it is the undeniable
The ultimate diety
The only one true threat
The forever anti-meta
The Ooze


This character is the only Sure-Bet you have, because it WILL change into a fast character with a shine and laser, or something of that nature, because it is too strong in it's current incarnation, and together we must unite to put an end to it by PM patch 4.0

Unite with us.

Feel the tiers.

Let them into your heart and your mind and your blood.

Bleed the tiers, breathe the tears back in again...

The Ooze is strong in you. You just have to let it in... or out.

I have absolutely no idea what you just said but for some reason it feels insightful. Strange

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm so confused right now........

Already, too, and I haven't even gotten to intelligible or useful stuff at all yet.

I have absolutely no idea what you just said but for some reason it feels insightful. Strange

I'm tired and used big words.
Tip of the day > don't listen to me.
If you need a headache, go read older posts of mine, they'll at least have some content worth reading so your headache isn't to COMPLETE waste.

I'm tiered.
Near the top somewhere.
Top of the top.
Tiered like a final boss of confusion.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I'm so confused right now........

You gotta level up to decipher the Tome of Nausicaa.
But my opinion to your question.

Spoiler

S



A+



A



B




C

 

[steelguttey]

I'm so confused right now........

we all are, just go with it

 

[InfinityCollision]

couldn't he just have ledgesnapped when you ledge dropped, then?

Startup of razor leaf to earliest possible reel-in timing is about 60 frames, and razor leaf itself comes out on (iirc) frame 22. You have plenty of time to react and do things.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Haven't tested (2 character testing by yourself is a little tricky, I'll get around to it), but Squirtle could probably do a ledgehop bair regrab and be back in time for the real in.

 

[Nausicaa]

You gotta level up to decipher the Tome of Nausicaa.

Final boss of confusion needs some serious secret level unlocks to just 'get' what you're supposed to do when faced with it.
I mean no, just pick and be done with it.




All in reply to AuraMaudeGone list.
S
Character is good but Smash is Smash and crap happens. In PM, more crap can happen that is similar to the way relevant Melee characters (to Fox) can do things to him (like Sheik/Marth/Puff/Falco/etc vs him) than anything else in the game. AKA, PM is Fox vs Marth on FD multiplied by a factor far greater than 'match-up=1' and don't forget that!
In the practical order, MK shouldn't be able to safely camp the way he 'looks' like he should be able to. Safe is the key word there, implying 'avoiding getting hit by the opponent when remaining in the threatening positional advantage that he aims to reside in to make use of his great options, is not actually all that functional'. Short answer, WD D-Tilt sucks when your Dash is 2big, and he takes crap like trades like a crappy crap.
Flaco vs Marth on FD and Flaco vs Peach on FoD multiplied by a factor of 'greater than match-up=2' makes 'game=hard' more real than his 'choking out with spacing' and 'locking down options to pin opponents' could ever dominate in the overall game. AKA, you barely ever comboing to 100%, let alone avoiding getting hit out of sh** you can't cover in your hole-filled hit-box coverage game you so desperately patch up and only get away with by being 'better' than the rest of Melee anymore you dum bird.


A+
Character is good but is waiting for Gerudo Training School to accept wolves so he can finally out-neutral everyone for lyfe with holding neutral for days on end because he's better at it than anyone can imagine.
Gate-keeper extraordinaire. How the heck was this character made so strong as a complex and dynamic character when the base of him was already this paralyzingly obnoxious?
Fake-keeper can't out-space crap or control resets and staggers and has so much glass on his canon that getting grabbed by someone is just as bad as it is for them being grabbed by him. Smooth as f*** though. Character is balls-deep in 'I can always find a way' because this is space-swords after all, and he's basically a Jedi.
Glass Canon and Queen of Stale-Mates lives on. Crawling is boss, speed is boss, throws that aren't silly are great in a dynamic game. She gets crapped on by things harder than she craps on them (by a lot, really), but she can hold her crap for so long that usually the opponent has to let it go first and she can play to that pretty well. (stale-mating neutral like Wolf wants to)

I have no movement options. I can't camp 'everywhere and every way' and clip almost everything you do and convert it into combos. I can't just lead back-flip tail-attacks into confusions for free unescapable 50% kills on everyone in the game when I touch them near edges. I have no good speed or hit-boxes on conversions or combos or tricks or tools or options or options or options or options or options... or...
I'm boring and linear. Plz fix with that really cool person suggestions. I think her name be naus and she from de valley of de wind. She fly like falcon, must have idea. Fly funner, smarter ways, make game funner, smarter, and better too. Fix plaze.
Half jkz half not but yes very strong free kills hard to hit and covering oneself is tricky-wicket with PM options opening up more.
No matter what you hit an opponent with, you can lead it into an F-Smash, U-Smash, U-Throw, and at the very 'worst', a B-Air. There is no exception at any % or any position. Oh, he also can't be hit. Because who needs to commit when you're a Pika with a D-Tilt that guarantees death, Luigi WD's, and disjointed attacks, when your only trade off is some edge-game stuff?
Combos are so free as him, and so NOT free against. Dem fistycuffs are OP too.
Everything leads into everything else, the character, round 3 (after Sheik and Mario). F-Tilt is silly-ranged, counter is silly-strong, why are the SO opposite moves on one such -combo-to-death character? Because Roy can't recover, and can't avoid getting hit, and get hits that count, or something, apparently. He has a bit of trouble with raw neutrals, guess that's where the word glass-canon comes in again, and why Smash is Smash. Ain't never be unbeatable, but dayum strong.
Stewy the Turtle loves you. I think I should try Jab more as this character. Well, basically anything works because he's everything leads into everything else round 4. Jab looks like it would be fun to throw into the mix. Such fun, but feels kind of not-that-fun to play as or against when both parties aren't comfortable with the idea of 2D animation.
Gate-keeper round 2. Half the characters in the game can't even get her off the ground.

I quit
Too many characters
Balance is hard
Don't listen to me
I'm tired

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Also Zelda has a great recovery, what are you guys talking about? Telecancel on platforms is absurd. Besides, the basic mixup of go to ledge vs on stage somewhere is good enough. Add in shortens and I am confused how its bottom 5?

*to be clear, this was said by Nausicaa

 

[Nausicaa]

Also Zelda has a great recovery, what are you guys talking about? Telecancel on platforms is absurd. Besides, the basic mixup of go to ledge vs on stage somewhere is good enough. Add in shortens and I am confused how its bottom 5?

What are YOU talking about?
Only 1 person mentioned that, not 'plural' and it wasn't even a topic.

You're slower than the meta-game.
I'm the one that hasn't slept in days. Get with it.
TheMolassesHill

 

[KinGly]

Final boss of confusion needs some serious secret level unlocks to just 'get' what you're supposed to do when faced with it.
I mean no, just pick and be done with it.




All in reply to AuraMaudeGone list.
S
Character is good but Smash is Smash and crap happens. In PM, more crap can happen that is similar to the way relevant Melee characters (to Fox) can do things to him (like Sheik/Marth/Puff/Falco/etc vs him) than anything else in the game. AKA, PM is Fox vs Marth on FD multiplied by a factor far greater than 'match-up=1' and don't forget that!
In the practical order, MK shouldn't be able to safely camp the way he 'looks' like he should be able to. Safe is the key word there, implying 'avoiding getting hit by the opponent when remaining in the threatening positional advantage that he aims to reside in to make use of his great options, is not actually all that functional'. Short answer, WD D-Tilt sucks when your Dash is 2big, and he takes crap like trades like a crappy crap.
Flaco vs Marth on FD and Flaco vs Peach on FoD multiplied by a factor of 'greater than match-up=2' makes 'game=hard' more real than his 'choking out with spacing' and 'locking down options to pin opponents' could ever dominate in the overall game. AKA, you barely ever comboing to 100%, let alone avoiding getting hit out of sh** you can't cover in your hole-filled hit-box coverage game you so desperately patch up and only get away with by being 'better' than the rest of Melee anymore you dum bird.


A+
Character is good but is waiting for Gerudo Training School to accept wolves so he can finally out-neutral everyone for lyfe with holding neutral for days on end because he's better at it than anyone can imagine.
Gate-keeper extraordinaire. How the heck was this character made so strong as a complex and dynamic character when the base of him was already this paralyzingly obnoxious?
Fake-keeper can't out-space crap or control resets and staggers and has so much glass on his canon that getting grabbed by someone is just as bad as it is for them being grabbed by him. Smooth as f*** though. Character is balls-deep in 'I can always find a way' because this is space-swords after all, and he's basically a Jedi.
Glass Canon and Queen of Stale-Mates lives on. Crawling is boss, speed is boss, throws that aren't silly are great in a dynamic game. She gets crapped on by things harder than she craps on them (by a lot, really), but she can hold her crap for so long that usually the opponent has to let it go first and she can play to that pretty well. (stale-mating neutral like Wolf wants to)

I have no movement options. I can't camp 'everywhere and every way' and clip almost everything you do and convert it into combos. I can't just lead back-flip tail-attacks into confusions for free unescapable 50% kills on everyone in the game when I touch them near edges. I have no good speed or hit-boxes on conversions or combos or tricks or tools or options or options or options or options or options... or...
I'm boring and linear. Plz fix with that really cool person suggestions. I think her name be naus and she from de valley of de wind. She fly like falcon, must have idea. Fly funner, smarter ways, make game funner, smarter, and better too. Fix plaze.
Half jkz half not but yes very strong free kills hard to hit and covering oneself is tricky-wicket with PM options opening up more.
No matter what you hit an opponent with, you can lead it into an F-Smash, U-Smash, U-Throw, and at the very 'worst', a B-Air. There is no exception at any % or any position. Oh, he also can't be hit. Because who needs to commit when you're a Pika with a D-Tilt that guarantees death, Luigi WD's, and disjointed attacks, when your only trade off is some edge-game stuff?
Combos are so free as him, and so NOT free against. Dem fistycuffs are OP too.
Everything leads into everything else, the character, round 3 (after Sheik and Mario). F-Tilt is silly-ranged, counter is silly-strong, why are the SO opposite moves on one such -combo-to-death character? Because Roy can't recover, and can't avoid getting hit, and get hits that count, or something, apparently. He has a bit of trouble with raw neutrals, guess that's where the word glass-canon comes in again, and why Smash is Smash. Ain't never be unbeatable, but dayum strong.
Stewy the Turtle loves you. I think I should try Jab more as this character. Well, basically anything works because he's everything leads into everything else round 4. Jab looks like it would be fun to throw into the mix. Such fun, but feels kind of not-that-fun to play as or against when both parties aren't comfortable with the idea of 2D animation.
Gate-keeper round 2. Half the characters in the game can't even get her off the ground.

I quit
Too many characters
Balance is hard
Don't listen to me
I'm tired

I just read all of that. Everything hurts and I feel like I need a nap.

 

[eideeiit]

Our best and brightest always go down the loudest.

Rip in pasta

anyhow, Y2Kay

The game is young and It'll take a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong while before you come across anything that you can't beat just by being a better player with almost all the characters, with the possible exceptions of like 5 characters that I won't even tell right now cause that would just make you think less and I suck so I probs shouldn't speak about stuff that could make folks butt-hurt, so just pick a guy you like and think you could do well with and roll with the mofo.
Then get good.
Then get $ and fug beachez.

I recommend Ike. He's a blast.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I meant to reply right when I saw it, but I got distracted and forgot. Came back later and said it, but didn't realize it was just one crazy person in this thread...

But seriously, Zelda has a good recovery. I don't think she's amazing or anything crazy like that, but that is a strong point. Also, maybe later today I'll list off what every character can do to tethers. I have thought of what Lucas and Squirtle can do, but nobody else yet.

 

[DMG]

Grab the edge against tethers, then take a course of action that seems appropriate for your Smash-Peen size.

 

[Player -0]

Fools.

I just jump off the stage and press the A button vs. tethers.

 

[_Chrome]

Final boss of confusion needs some serious secret level unlocks to just 'get' what you're supposed to do when faced with it.
I mean no, just pick and be done with it.




All in reply to AuraMaudeGone list.
S
Character is good but Smash is Smash and crap happens. In PM, more crap can happen that is similar to the way relevant Melee characters (to Fox) can do things to him (like Sheik/Marth/Puff/Falco/etc vs him) than anything else in the game. AKA, PM is Fox vs Marth on FD multiplied by a factor far greater than 'match-up=1' and don't forget that!
In the practical order, MK shouldn't be able to safely camp the way he 'looks' like he should be able to. Safe is the key word there, implying 'avoiding getting hit by the opponent when remaining in the threatening positional advantage that he aims to reside in to make use of his great options, is not actually all that functional'. Short answer, WD D-Tilt sucks when your Dash is 2big, and he takes crap like trades like a crappy crap.
Flaco vs Marth on FD and Flaco vs Peach on FoD multiplied by a factor of 'greater than match-up=2' makes 'game=hard' more real than his 'choking out with spacing' and 'locking down options to pin opponents' could ever dominate in the overall game. AKA, you barely ever comboing to 100%, let alone avoiding getting hit out of sh** you can't cover in your hole-filled hit-box coverage game you so desperately patch up and only get away with by being 'better' than the rest of Melee anymore you dum bird.


A+
Character is good but is waiting for Gerudo Training School to accept wolves so he can finally out-neutral everyone for lyfe with holding neutral for days on end because he's better at it than anyone can imagine.
Gate-keeper extraordinaire. How the heck was this character made so strong as a complex and dynamic character when the base of him was already this paralyzingly obnoxious?
Fake-keeper can't out-space crap or control resets and staggers and has so much glass on his canon that getting grabbed by someone is just as bad as it is for them being grabbed by him. Smooth as f*** though. Character is balls-deep in 'I can always find a way' because this is space-swords after all, and he's basically a Jedi.
Glass Canon and Queen of Stale-Mates lives on. Crawling is boss, speed is boss, throws that aren't silly are great in a dynamic game. She gets crapped on by things harder than she craps on them (by a lot, really), but she can hold her crap for so long that usually the opponent has to let it go first and she can play to that pretty well. (stale-mating neutral like Wolf wants to)

I have no movement options. I can't camp 'everywhere and every way' and clip almost everything you do and convert it into combos. I can't just lead back-flip tail-attacks into confusions for free unescapable 50% kills on everyone in the game when I touch them near edges. I have no good speed or hit-boxes on conversions or combos or tricks or tools or options or options or options or options or options... or...
I'm boring and linear. Plz fix with that really cool person suggestions. I think her name be naus and she from de valley of de wind. She fly like falcon, must have idea. Fly funner, smarter ways, make game funner, smarter, and better too. Fix plaze.
Half jkz half not but yes very strong free kills hard to hit and covering oneself is tricky-wicket with PM options opening up more.
No matter what you hit an opponent with, you can lead it into an F-Smash, U-Smash, U-Throw, and at the very 'worst', a B-Air. There is no exception at any % or any position. Oh, he also can't be hit. Because who needs to commit when you're a Pika with a D-Tilt that guarantees death, Luigi WD's, and disjointed attacks, when your only trade off is some edge-game stuff?
Combos are so free as him, and so NOT free against. Dem fistycuffs are OP too.
Everything leads into everything else, the character, round 3 (after Sheik and Mario). F-Tilt is silly-ranged, counter is silly-strong, why are the SO opposite moves on one such -combo-to-death character? Because Roy can't recover, and can't avoid getting hit, and get hits that count, or something, apparently. He has a bit of trouble with raw neutrals, guess that's where the word glass-canon comes in again, and why Smash is Smash. Ain't never be unbeatable, but dayum strong.
Stewy the Turtle loves you. I think I should try Jab more as this character. Well, basically anything works because he's everything leads into everything else round 4. Jab looks like it would be fun to throw into the mix. Such fun, but feels kind of not-that-fun to play as or against when both parties aren't comfortable with the idea of 2D animation.
Gate-keeper round 2. Half the characters in the game can't even get her off the ground.

I quit
Too many characters
Balance is hard
Don't listen to me
I'm tired

Lol because I actually understood you for the first time in like a week or something and you purposefully (I hope) weren't speaking proper English. This post was actually accurate. #Naus2020

 

[Nausicaa]

Also Zelda has a great recovery, what are you guys talking about? Telecancel on platforms is absurd. Besides, the basic mixup of go to ledge vs on stage somewhere is good enough. Add in shortens and I am confused how its bottom 5?

*to be clear, this was said by Nausicaa

I never said anything like this.
What's wrong with you, get some sleep
That Tomaster person on the last page said that thing.
Unless you're talking about how I was considering Zelda 'near the bottom' of the cast, which had 0% of anything to do with the recovery discussion.

Get some sleep!

Lol because I actually understood you for the first time in like a week or something and you purposefully (I hope) weren't speaking proper English. This post was actually accurate. #Naus2020

Sadly that was like the blandest and least interesting post I'd ever make if I wasn't very irritated in the eyeballs from having them open for 70whatever hours it's been.

It's about stupid stuff like what characters do and specific maneuvers and crap. I might as well say Ike has a good neutral because of fly-by nairs and Samus is good because she's heavy and can space moves. It's silly.

If you 'can' understand what my more 'ranty' posts are about if you 'do' attempt to read them, I'd really suggest at least doing that attempt. If people understood what it 'really' meant to see the difference between becoming fluent to play vs playing oneself into fluency, then we wouldn't have a bad discussion in this thread again, we wouldn't need discussion on how to be better with characters or anything, and we wouldn't OH CRAP
Bunch of friends from OOS showed up I hear them in the other room gtg

 

[Player -0]

Your friends from out of state randomly enter your house?

.-.?

Also Zelda is baller, trying her and Kirby out (and playing really campy) next time I play ESAM. If Nayru's land cancel window were a little earlier she would be so fun/dumb (other stuff but this would be dumb).

Also Kirby tech for people that don't know (specifically vs. Falco): F-Throw -> Laser as hitting ground -> Cover missed tech -> cover tech in place and tech in on reaction -> if you see tech away then apply pressure with ez double laser pressure -> F-Tilt/Up-Tilt/hammer (if they're by ledge and you can push them off with it)/Bair.

the stuff of nightmares. Grab becomes dumb amounts of threatening. Also Kirby has Sheik Fair, nuff said.

Does Kirby get a 50/50 mixup with Wario's bite? Can WD out of Diddy's/Wolf's nB's? Other random stuff?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Nausicaa
Woops

Idk about Ganondorf (he could be), but I agree on the other 2. Claim what you want about Link, but he isn't good. He can take advantage of positioning with up air juggles, jab jab seems ok (until you realize all he gets is a dsmash...), his dthrow is stupid, and nair is pretty good. Other than that, he doesn't have much else going for him. Zelda (and Ivy actually) just seems like a byproduct of differing opinions that need to be resolved in order for them to ever receive love. Right now, since the hate of fighting Zelda from 3.0 and before was allowed to change her design, basically, slow game play will not be tolerated. But, PM still is striving for a balanced cast with unique fighters. This creates a clash with 3 outcomes:

1) The slower, campier, and unique characters (such as Zelda or Ivysaur) get tools they need to play as such (their defensive nature) and everyone whines and complains because they are mildly good.
2) Their uniqueness gets taken away and they become another fast paced, hyper aggression character of some sort
3) They remain in an awkward limbo where they can kind of play and more defensive game, but aren't given the proper tools to do so and are bad (this is where they are now).

That is the state of things. Zelda players and players who want that style of play won't get it, at least that is the way it appears. A similar idea is developing with "fatties", where the DT/common players/people who discuss/etc have mixed opinions. Some just say they are fine, point to their strengths and tell the mains to push them harder. Others say its hopeless, fatties need something drastic to help mitigate the inherent flaws with being fat. Slowness and fatness are alike in that regard. People are comfortable with the way dash dancing, fast shuffles, shield pressure, and so on are used in game play (similar to how melee characters are unlikely to change since their "jank" isn't perceived as such). It is "fair". So quick characters that have those tools aren't going to be changed to much (think Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Marth, Meta Knight, Sonic, even Squirtle for a fringe case just because he uses mobility rather than some other "jank" tool to be unique). It is mentioned constantly, but nothing will change about how mobile characters always have the leg up.

Back to defensive characters and fatties, while wrapping up. There isn't that same level of comfort with good defensive/fat characters and the tools they need to thrive in this mobile environment. The elephants in the room are probably Samus, Peach, and Jigglypuff (from Melee). Lack of people playing Jigglypuff in PM, her being a melee top tier preventing many changes, and people deciding that she sucks (I'm not convinced) for x y and z reasons make her hard to really talk about. She basically doesn't exist... Samus is around Ganondorf in level (he can be mentioned as a "good fatty", but it is a stretch) in melee. Peach didn't transition as well into PM for whatever reason (probably no top level representation, though Bladewise, LLOD (sometimes?), and a few others do put in work. I put this up to Melee transition and that is the only reason they are kept this way. But we can't have good Ivysaur, good Zelda, maybe even good kirby (there is still hope for him though, I've lost hope in the others). It is a hard spot. You want people to have fun playing against characters, but you also want diverse character options besides every good character being dash dance and shffl city. We do want unique characters and balance and fun. But it seems this is too hard and some must be taken over the others.

 

[Soft Serve]

Your friends from out of state randomly enter your house?

.-.?

Also Zelda is baller, trying her and Kirby out (and playing really campy) next time I play ESAM. If Nayru's land cancel window were a little earlier she would be so fun/dumb (other stuff but this would be dumb).

Also Kirby tech for people that don't know (specifically vs. Falco): F-Throw -> Laser as hitting ground -> Cover missed tech -> cover tech in place and tech in on reaction -> if you see tech away then apply pressure with ez double laser pressure -> F-Tilt/Up-Tilt/hammer (if they're by ledge and you can push them off with it)/Bair.

the stuff of nightmares. Grab becomes dumb amounts of threatening. Also Kirby has Sheik Fair, nuff said.

Does Kirby get a 50/50 mixup with Wario's bite? Can WD out of Diddy's/Wolf's nB's? Other random stuff?

Kirby doesn't get the 50/50. His bite is really weird, hitting a/b causes him to bite and do ALOT of damage until its forces to throw. Don't know if them mashing affects it at all, but their % does. I'm able to get 35% out of it at zero (with no mashing from the opponent). most I've gotten so far is 50% with good mashing on my part. Interesting, kinda super jank. WIsh it was cleaned up

. He can' waveland out of wolf's blaster, although the projectile is smaller/weaker. you can't fthrow or upthrow>blaster waveland because kirby lands before the projectile comes out.

He can not air dodge out of diddy's. In fact its really garbage. initial angle shot is very high, long arch. In the air shooting stops all his momentum completely, endlag is pretty bad too. The popgun cancel is really bad as well. you can short hop cancel bair but its a two frame leniency to get any hitbox out. its awkward, he can't even do the cool cancel no impact land set ups with it because landing transitions into the grounded cancel animation. the only cool thing is as is that due to the high flight arc you can cover ledge recoveries from center stage, although you just get %. Kinda sad tbh, kirby with cool wavebounce popgun cancels would be scary, and so would him being able to AGT his peanuts.


other big discrepancy is that kirby with snake's power has to hard press shield to drop grenades while snake can light press.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

If memory serves correctly, that is the way bite was in brawl.

 

[Saproling]

Nausicaa
Woops

Idk about Ganondorf (he could be), but I agree on the other 2. Claim what you want about Link, but he isn't good. He can take advantage of positioning with up air juggles, jab jab seems ok (until you realize all he gets is a dsmash...), his dthrow is stupid, and nair is pretty good. Other than that, he doesn't have much else going for him. Zelda (and Ivy actually) just seems like a byproduct of differing opinions that need to be resolved in order for them to ever receive love. Right now, since the hate of fighting Zelda from 3.0 and before was allowed to change her design, basically, slow game play will not be tolerated. But, PM still is striving for a balanced cast with unique fighters. This creates a clash with 3 outcomes:

1) The slower, campier, and unique characters (such as Zelda or Ivysaur) get tools they need to play as such (their defensive nature) and everyone whines and complains because they are mildly good.
2) Their uniqueness gets taken away and they become another fast paced, hyper aggression character of some sort
3) They remain in an awkward limbo where they can kind of play and more defensive game, but aren't given the proper tools to do so and are bad (this is where they are now).

That is the state of things. Zelda players and players who want that style of play won't get it, at least that is the way it appears. A similar idea is developing with "fatties", where the DT/common players/people who discuss/etc have mixed opinions. Some just say they are fine, point to their strengths and tell the mains to push them harder. Others say its hopeless, fatties need something drastic to help mitigate the inherent flaws with being fat. Slowness and fatness are alike in that regard. People are comfortable with the way dash dancing, fast shuffles, shield pressure, and so on are used in game play (similar to how melee characters are unlikely to change since their "jank" isn't perceived as such). It is "fair". So quick characters that have those tools aren't going to be changed to much (think Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Marth, Meta Knight, Sonic, even Squirtle for a fringe case just because he uses mobility rather than some other "jank" tool to be unique). It is mentioned constantly, but nothing will change about how mobile characters always have the leg up.

Back to defensive characters and fatties, while wrapping up. There isn't that same level of comfort with good defensive/fat characters and the tools they need to thrive in this mobile environment. The elephants in the room are probably Samus, Peach, and Jigglypuff (from Melee). Lack of people playing Jigglypuff in PM, her being a melee top tier preventing many changes, and people deciding that she sucks (I'm not convinced) for x y and z reasons make her hard to really talk about. She basically doesn't exist... Samus is around Ganondorf in level (he can be mentioned as a "good fatty", but it is a stretch) in melee. Peach didn't transition as well into PM for whatever reason (probably no top level representation, though Bladewise, LLOD (sometimes?), and a few others do put in work. I put this up to Melee transition and that is the only reason they are kept this way. But we can't have good Ivysaur, good Zelda, maybe even good kirby (there is still hope for him though, I've lost hope in the others). It is a hard spot. You want people to have fun playing against characters, but you also want diverse character options besides every good character being dash dance and shffl city. We do want unique characters and balance and fun. But it seems this is too hard and some must be taken over the others.

Kongo jungle is Ivysaurs only hope in sight the platforms and slants make this seem like her best stage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_RduZ2x9o&feature=youtu.be
Can stay away from projectiles from center stage while taking up space with leaf and gives her some time to SHFFL Synth. The platforms are at a great height for her up air juggles and other air pokes as well up smash/tilt can hit them and the middle moving platforms are tiny enough to reliably cover them if they tech unto them as well as covering her from above.
Make legal pls

 

[Deleted member]

Don't listen to me

pf ive been doing this for 3-4 months.

 

[DMG]

I imagine Nausicca posts in the voice of Bob Ross. It changed everything I swear

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Heavies in smash/PM are inherently flawed and arguing about something as small as three frames on shield might be a step in the right direction but an overhaul in the entire design philosophy of heavy characters is needed to make them actually relevant again

and the smash community is so hilariously indoctrinated that people will complain about the possibility of dk's fair being negative on shield and constantly bring up the fact that he can 50/50 people to death from a grab

like cool yeah meanwhile one of the most mobile and non-committal characters in the game, falcon, has a kill move that's safe on shield, faster, and has less landing lag and can airwobble people into a knee with no opponent interaction, has guaranteed kill options into knee from like 50% onwards, and has guaranteed grab to knee followups

both these characters are badly designed, except one is good because of it and the other isn't

I am very glad im not the only one with this opinion.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I have like a dumb ideal but would something like a Gamma Charge special for Sonic be good for him? It could replace his side, so we don't have 2 different spindashes

 

[_Chrome]

I have like a dumb ideal but would something like a Gamma Charge special for Sonic be good for him? It could replace his side, so we don't have 2 different spindashes

The spin dashes serve totally different purposes according to Avro-Arrow. Don't ask me to explain it, but getting rid of one of them would really change the way Sonic plays.

 

[Nausicaa]

If you changed the animation of one of the spin-dashes to something else, sure make one a gamma charge, but he definitely needs both to function as they do or you'll be changing quite a bit of the character.
Nice solution DMG one of the best yet.
Saproling good to see that Kongo floating around. It's probably based or influenced of the original one I made ages ago.
Totally gonna search through the sources and see where it came from.
@Umbreon you're doing a terrible job, but it's actually good. Last time you said you'd buff underwhelming character's conversion (like buffing DKs grab) my line of questioning led to you saying we need to make these characters more dynamic, which would mean to nerf DKs grab and buff the rest of him.
The opposite of your original posts about it, was one of your best posts yet.

You're welcome.

 

[Player -0]

Sonic's Side B = Good

Sonic's Down B = Not really

 

[Nausicaa]

Sonic's Side B = Good

Sonic's Down B = Not really

It's not overly practical when it comes to getting optimal follow-ups from connecting with Down-B, but it's a solid move that can get solid hits out of neutral and combos, and solid conversions in some cases.
It's good, could be better, but definitely good.
Fun to use too.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

It's not overly practical when it comes to getting optimal follow-ups from connecting with Down-B, but it's a solid move that can get solid hits out of neutral and combos, and solid conversions in some cases.
It's good, could be better, but definitely good.
Fun to use too.

i seriously need to play sonic as i had no idea how similar these moves looked but totally functioned differently.

 

[Life]

DownB combos into Sonic's aerials relatively easily, which includes some of his more effective kill moves e.g. nair and bair. It also has mixups related to how long you hold charge.

SideB has more directly obvious mixups since it's jump cancelable, so you can grab or wavedash, and of course there's the kick which helps you get followups by hitting people off the stage. It's also multihit, so it's more vulnerable to SDI than downB is.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Sonic's down b moves across much larger ranges than his side b does. As such it can be used to follow-up an aerial combo that knocked an opponent off stage into an edgeguard. Also, it can be used to recover over long distances, since it can be jumped out of while airborne while side b cannot. Additionally, Sonic has access to something called a spinshot, which grants him a fast and long ranged double jump. This is useful for recovering from shorter distances. It has been nerfed since 3.0. Side b can be used to grab ledge, from onstage it is called "hedgehogging," while down b cannot.

The trajectory of the moves is different as well. You can see side b hops off the ground or gains a little height in the air while down b does not. The initial knockback angles work differently as well as what you can do out of it.

For example, side b allows you to jc grab or use the baseball slide (which is /mostly/ useless...) and sometimes link into combo/kill moves (I.e. blast attack or nair), although down b does a lot better of a job at netting you nairs,dairs, upairs and the like.

Side b cna be CC'd and SDI'd alot easier than down b can. I find it's very intuitive. It's also super fun!

 

[nimigoha]

"hedgehogging"

Sorry Squirtle, all your tech names are inferior to this godly word.

 

[Player -0]

Any time you can Down B to kill move/aerial you can pretty much just grab -> do it or just do it.

 

[_Chrome]

Any time you can Down B to kill move/aerial you can pretty much just grab -> do it or just do it.

Not necessarily. Sonic becomes a hitbox when he uses his down-b. Sure, you could just grab, but using the down-b gives you a different speed/acceleration for the approach and it's a good mix-up with the added bonus of looking like side-b. Sonic needs moves and mix-ups like these to survive.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Any time you can Down B to kill move/aerial you can pretty much just grab -> do it or just do it.

Not true at all. It can depend on the character, but a lot of the time down b lands me a Sonic Adventure 3 combo as TK Breezy would put it or a dair or uair whereas grab (ie uthrow or dthrow since back and fthrow are positional) wouldn't with any semblance of good DI (away).

Even in cases where grab works just as well, it doesn't mean it's easier to land believe it or not. Down b can be used out of run or, even better, out of run back or in the air to cut back or down at your opponent when a defensive opening presents itself.

If there's anything I'm good at with Sonic, it's punishing. Avro Arrow goes full blast.

_Chrome Especially when he hasn't hitboxes that are outright threatening, reliable launchers at low percents outside of grab, and no projectile. And when he's one of the characters with the worst survivability in the game. How many characters really get killed by Fox's usmash at low 100 %s with good DI nowadays anyways? You nailed it on the head.

Edit: Also glad I can acively contribute to this thread for the time being.

T tasteless gentleman Sonic is a lot of fun. Really flexible punish game and intense neutral as all you have is raw speed to try and maneuver your way around the stage and create openings. And dem taunt cancels

 

[Player -0]

To anyone that knows what Side B or Down B looks like in the slightest they won't be confused. Especially when the counterplay to Side B and Down B are more or less the same.

It's a niche move with too much commitment for it to be a staple when Sonic has a plethora of other options that give the same reward for only a little more work.

That being said it fills its use very well in my opinion and shouldn't really be touched. I'm still pretty sure you can SH -> Charge Down B while falling onto a recent tech situation and cover every option while still getting a pretty good reward while not needing too good of reflexes.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

To anyone that knows what Side B or Down B looks like in the slightest they won't be confused. Especially when the counterplay to Side B and Down B are more or less the same.

It's a niche move with too much commitment for it to be a staple when Sonic has a plethora of other options that give the same reward for only a little more work.

That being said it fills its use very well in my opinion and shouldn't really be touched. I'm still pretty sure you can SH -> Charge Down B while falling onto a recent tech situation and cover every option while still getting a pretty good reward while not needing too good of reflexes.

Of course they aren't moves to crutch on like they could have been in 2.5 and 2.6, but in no way are they niche moves IMO.

Any good Sonic can use his mobility to not bait, but force an option out of you and then capitalize before you can react by using anything really (this is where down and side b show their utility). As such, it doesn't matter if you can distinguish between the two because it's too late (or, as we like to say, "You're too slow ~ !!!") for you to properly react to it.

I find he is a very well-designed character with a varied combo/decision tree, but I find that he's terribly frustrating to play agaisnt when you don't know the ins and outs of the matchup but that he is absolutely terrible when the Sonic user doesn't know him inside out.

In a tech chase situation, down b isn't an auto answer to everything like it used to be since it can no longer hold its charge indefinitely (thank god) but it can be used sometimes... I don't use it because people I play against know it shoots automatically at some point and react to it there, which means I've missed the opportunity to punish at all.

You can also go for aerials, down smashes and other stuff in tech chases but I've found in my two years' experience with the character that just sticking to jc grabs is normally the way to go. It's friggin' savage.

 

[Jamble]

Personally, just from watching Sonic players I don't view his Down-B as an approach so much as a mobility tool for punishes. I think the idea (whether or not it's tuned perfectly ATM) is to give him extra bursts of mobility for quick punishes. Watching Sonic players, it seems like that's the most effective way they tend to use them; They'll DD, zip around, bait a reaction, and use one of his spindashes to punish is what I'm seeing.