Tier List Speculation

[DiZZ]

Hey Guys it's Noghrilla here,
In response to all the dk talk I would like to add a very specific change list which would neither buff the character a tremendous bit nor change his playstyle.
1. Changing dk grab from frame 8 to frame 7, it may not seem like a huge change but in neutral to even shield grabbing and mixing it up having to wait one less frame could give dk a little oomph he is missing (also normalizing grab frames for all non tether characters).
2. Giving dk slightly more vertical distance on his recovery almost like what he had in 3.02 nothing so large it would matter.
3. My Final thoughts would be buffing his fair on shield, first off its a frame 20 aerial which is -5 on shield while as falcon has a fair frame 14 (considered slow) which is 0 on shield aka safe how does this make any sense balance wise for a character to have to wait 20 frames (on top of jump and aerial frames) and be punished for landing such a slow frame wise move on shield.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Knee is not +5 on shield in PM, but it could be in melee due to changes with hoe hitlag and shields operate between the two. Knee would have to do 27% in order to be +5 in PM or have a hitlag multiplier less than 1 (which it doesn't). I would tell the frame advantage it has, but the melee frame data thread is dumb and doesn't list damage of moves.

 

[Bazkip]

Pretty sure knee is 0 on shield in both games.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Knee is not +5 on shield in PM, but it could be in melee due to changes with hoe hitlag and shields operate between the two. Knee would have to do 27% in order to be +5 in PM or have a hitlag multiplier less than 1 (which it doesn't). I would tell the frame advantage it has, but the melee frame data thread is dumb and doesn't list damage of moves.

there are no changes in how hitlag/shieldlag operates between the two

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Hm, some rando melee poster on here/reddit told me otherwise. Well, woops. Still not +5...

 

[Player -0]

@Odds_ isn't that just Squirtle though

 

[nimigoha]

Lol Falcon's Knee +5 on shield. It's +1, 10 frames of shield stun and 9 frames l canceled landing lag.

DK's does the same amount of damage, but has 14 frames of l canceled landing lag. So -4.

Although the frame of connection is iffy for me idk I'm a little lit right now, it might be +0 and -5.

But there's not a 10 frame advantage difference lol.

 

[Soft Serve]

The point is still valid though. Falcon has an even on shield strong kill move/combo tool, as well as having auto gentleman and probably the best dash back after hit on shield in terms of getting hurt boxes away.

Dks is -4/-5 at best and he can't even stop shield grabs with jabs

 

[Life]

I'm surprised that there's so much disagreement over something as fairly common as Falcon kneeing a shield.

I don't know it offhand as I don't know Falcon stuff in general really, but...

 

[DiZZ]

I still think that My point is valid that dk has no safe pressure vs shield even with a move frame 20 pretty absurd

 

[nimigoha]

Uh yeah it's called late frame 7 Nair which is +0 on shield and mixes up into jab jab or jab grab lol.

Literally just tested this today lol.

Also if they buffer roll behind you after jab then you can grab them. Same for jab jab.

Welcome to "no one has guaranteed shield pressure but DKs is pretty damn good."

Anyone Fairing shields needs a new main lol.

I'm
Lit
Though.

 

[FreeGamer]

why does he need safe pressure when he's already fast and can 50/50 you to death with a couple grabs

 

[DiZZ]

Uh yeah it's called late frame 7 Nair which is +0 on shield and mixes up into jab jab or jab grab lol.

Literally just tested this today lol.

Also if they buffer roll behind you after jab then you can grab them. Same for jab jab.

Welcome to "no one has guaranteed shield pressure but DKs is pretty damn good."

Anyone Fairing shields needs a new main lol.

I'm
Lit
Though.

Nair may be safe but why would a frame 20 move not be safe on a shield you have yet to answer the simple fact if you are able to land a move like that there should be a benefit not a punishment

 

[nimigoha]

Hitting shield with it =\ landing it lmao

 

[DiZZ]

Hitting shield with it =\ landing it lmao

is there something wrong with you frame 20 but you get no benefit of throwing it out you just get punished by a simple reaction shield to grab seems pretty fair no pun intended....

 

[nimigoha]

is there something wrong with you frame 20 but you get no benefit of throwing it out you just get punished by a simple reaction shield to grab seems pretty fair no pun intended....

Yeah lol let me jump and Falcon Punch a shield and expect a free grab lmao just Nair shields. Fair isn't a neutral tool.

 

[DiZZ]

Yeah lol let me jump and Falcon Punch a shield and expect a free grab lmao just Nair shields. Fair isn't a neutral tool.

That's the reason I suggested for it to be so dk can have something else in neutral.... you really didn't read my post in the slightest

 

[nimigoha]

He doesn't need anything else though lol, no one is like "Imani's you up with a +0 or +2 move on shield" lmao

 

[DiZZ]

He doesn't need anything else though lol, no one is like "Imani's you up with a +0 or +2 move on shield" lmao

Pretty sure the 9 people whom liked my original post would say otherwise

 

[DrinkingFood]

honestly comparing falcon punch to dk's fair is silly lol
falcon punch is effectively useless except to style, specials like that aren't uncommon
meanwhile DK's short one of his aerials for approaching purposes

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Buffing fair wouldn't do much imo, especially just for shield advantage. DK can deal with shields with a dtilt, the mere threat of a grab, bair, etc.

 

[PlateProp]

"Muh frame 20 fair is -5 on shield oh noooooo"

Pretty much everyone (unless you're spacies cause lol shine ) has aerials that are horrible on shield while being faster. Like nimi said DK's fair isint a neutral tool, you shouldnt expect some reward for hitting someone's shield with it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Buffing fair wouldn't do much imo, especially just for shield advantage. DK can deal with shields with a dtilt, the mere threat of a grab, bair, etc.

the change isn't meant to do much, it's a quality of life change so he doesn't automatically get ****ed when the opponent shields fair
ftr it is in fact -5 on shield as it does 17 damage, not 18
usually one of the benefits of being a big character is that even tho your moves are slow, they're safe on hit and on shield, and the better coverage makes you less likely to miss than if you attached the same animation and speed to a small character. Of all the big character's aerials, DK's fair is the most extreme in slowness in the most important area (start-up, it doesn't hit til frame 23). It has a ton of commitment so compensating for that in another area makes sense. You have to spend at least those first 23 frames in an animation where you can't do anything else, whereas with quicker moves you don't have to decide to fully commit until much much later in your jump arc. If someone like falcon goes in with a nair, that's it, you're dead, you eat the nair because you were busy winding up your fair, then you eat the full combo because you're not in a position to CC or shield. You could say to nair because it's -1 and hits frame 7, but that's just recognition that it fills a different niche. Something nair DOESN'T do if you delay it for a safe hit on shield is cover a jump option. This isn't like, johns or not understanding the game, it's more of a design critique as I don't think aerials should just be inherently single-use tools since almost every character is so reliant on having good ones or a good way to use the ones they have (and when they don't, they're usually bad). As it is DK's fair is just kind of a combo finisher, adding 1 damage and removing 2 landing lag makes it -2 on shield (when fresh) and gives him the option to make a heavy commitment on the grounds that he reads the opponent not-approaching and not defensively positioning themselves (kind of a middle ground spacing), in return for more heavy reward than nair (possibility of hitting out of jump/etc for more knockback/damage, about as safe on shield with more shield damage/push back).

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

the change isn't meant to do much, it's a quality of life change so he doesn't automatically get ****ed when the opponent shields fair
ftr it is in fact -5 on shield as it does 17 damage, not 18
usually one of the benefits of being a big character is that even tho your moves are slow, they're safe on hit and on shield, and the better coverage makes you less likely to miss than if you attached the same animation and speed to a small character. Of all the big character's aerials, DK's fair is the most extreme in slowness in the most important area (start-up, it doesn't hit til frame 23). It has a ton of commitment so compensating for that in another area makes sense. You have to spend at least those first 23 frames in an animation where you can't do anything else, whereas with quicker moves you don't have to decide to fully commit until much much later in your jump arc. If someone like falcon goes in with a nair, that's it, you're dead, you eat the nair because you were busy winding up your fair, then you eat the full combo because you're not in a position to CC or shield. You could say to nair because it's -1 and hits frame 7, but that's just recognition that it fills a different niche. Something nair DOESN'T do if you delay it for a safe hit on shield is cover a jump option. This isn't like, johns or not understanding the game, it's more of a design critique as I don't think aerials should just be inherently single-use tools since almost every character is so reliant on having good ones or a good way to use the ones they have (and when they don't, they're usually bad). As it is DK's fair is just kind of a combo finisher, adding 1 damage and removing 2 landing lag makes it -2 on shield (when fresh) and gives him the option to make a heavy commitment on the grounds that he reads the opponent not-approaching and not defensively positioning themselves (kind of a middle ground spacing), in return for more heavy reward than nair (possibility of hitting out of jump/etc for more knockback/damage, about as safe on shield with more shield damage/push back).

Your comparing Dk's fair to falcon's fair, which isn't really a good comparison. Dk with a ranged fair that is neutral on hit would have a free jab pressure/ grab mixup with less commitment than he puts into his nair.

Considering this character already out right kills most of the cast that he gets a grab on at 60%, (including some that he already flat out 0-death) and your left with the question why would any design team do this?

True quality of life buffs would be why does it take an ape like 3 seconds to forward toss a banana when spacies with great pressure have the best item tosses. Why is his tech roll so hilariously awful? And as for fair, it has to be that slow. If it was faster, he could reliably guarantee the spike hitbox on his "50/50" d.i mix up throw, (in quotation marks cause guaranteed hit on some characters at certain percents.)

Putting this on a character mobile with cargo throw would guarantee spike kills on characters caught in a grab at like 55% and up, not exactly great game design.

Not saying qol buffs is a bad idea, just choosing the route of slight buffing his extreme weaknesses to just weaknesses is a better route than buffing his already great strengths. And I'd some vertical added to his up b, can we agree as a group a high priority 2f up b move shouldn't be doing 34%, barely tolerable now only cause of his weaknesses, if he is buffed, than it would just be... g&w

 

[DrinkingFood]

Your comparing Dk's fair to falcon's fair

I was?
things I also didn't say and you are somehow arguing against:
making DK's fair faster
buffing his punishing ability

also I would hardly call buffing DK's fair a "great strength", it's basically just a finishing move, and the buff I have in mind for it doesn't buff it in that area. Also, did you just say fair was less committed than nair...? what are you smoking
also -2 aerials on shield don't give free jab/grab mix-up, you can just beat them with mash grab+hold down (you can also just roll, among other things). If they try to grab, you grab first, if they jab, you CC the jab, if they jab 2, you CC that too. DK suffers from this worse than a lot of characters since his full jab combo doesn't push the CCing opponent away like most full jab combos, meaning he guaranteed gets grabbed unless jab 2 connects during grab start-up past knockdown percents.
More than anything it gives DK more frames to retreat and bait an OoS option

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Whoops did a quote on wrong person sorry man lol.
To explain what I mean by less commital, I am going with the idea of Dk's fair being frame 14 similar to knee, not as it is now. The fact that the move swings in a giant arc similar to Marth's fair, and below him means that everything in the air, above, below, and widely in front of him will be hit by the move.

His fair stays out for a bit, so it covers early spot dodges pretty well, if it is safe on shield to 0 or +2 like some were wanting, then the opponent has to respect that dk can jab jab, grab, jab grab, or (the option that forces you to respect the others) a 2f up b that kills at like 80 with invincibility.

Although the idea of giving him a way to bait oos options is nice, of his worst four matchups, the spacies and g&w, what does forcing a low commitment and high priority combo starter that you can act out of really accomplish? The overall goal is to make his hard matchups less toxic, without making his good matchups too much better.

Dk is a grappler in this game with guarantees on the majority of the cast with his throws at all relevant percents, making it too easy to get the grab would make it hard to justify the strong punish. Looking over your ideas specifically, nothing is outrageous, but doesn't really solve any of the unnecessary issues. The added option in neutral would become pretty much the overall best option in near every situation, without solving any of his really poor defensive tools.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Hmmmm.... Dk.... He needs.... what does he actually NEED? I think he NEEDS a better recovery or a recovery mix up maybe... That and a way to not get comboed to death for 0%. Other than that i think hes pretty okay.

 

[nimigoha]

DK has great tech rolls, what do you mean? He sticks in place and then shoots to the side very quickly, there's very little telegraph for reaction tech chases.

Maybe has a bit of vulnerability at the end but that because he's big. You're only going to catch him if you make a hard read.

DK needs a little more on his recovery and a better combo breaker than UpB. I could see the Fair buff being an option, maybe alter to make it a -2 or -3. I think that buffing damage too much would be making his kill potential too strong, easiest thing seems like cutting landing frames.

Just like a very random thought, what if Dash Attack reflected projectiles? Basically like ROB's does. Gives him a way to deal with them. Maybe alter its frame data or strength so you can't just spam it against projectiles and never get touched.

 

[Life]

You're thinking ROB's sideB, not dash attack. Not that there's a dramatic difference in terms of general usage, reflector aside.

On the subject of tech rolls, there are three things that can be used to determine how good a techroll is: distance traveled on frame 21 (i.e. the first vulnerable frame), distance traveled on frame 40 (i.e. the last vulnerable frame), and how ambiguous the animation is (part of why GnW techrolls are so good despite not going unusually far). There are also a few extra factors, such as your characters' friction when you're forced to tech something that sent you down at an angle (why Squirtle's awful techrolls aren't just a total death sentence) and of course whether there's an edge nearby. And you'd have to measure distance from edge of hurtbox to edge of hurtbox and not from center to center (here's looking at you, Bowser).

The most broken hypothetical tech animation would be completely ambiguous until frame 20, would teleport the character way off to the side on frame 21, and continue to move out even further through frame 40.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah lol I meant Side B.

I'll check the frame data on DKs roll when I get home, I'll see how it plays into those criteria

 

[tasteless gentleman]

DK has great tech rolls, what do you mean? He sticks in place and then shoots to the side very quickly, there's very little telegraph for reaction tech chases.

Maybe has a bit of vulnerability at the end but that because he's big. You're only going to catch him if you make a hard read.

DK needs a little more on his recovery and a better combo breaker than UpB. I could see the Fair buff being an option, maybe alter to make it a -2 or -3. I think that buffing damage too much would be making his kill potential too strong, easiest thing seems like cutting landing frames.

Just like a very random thought, what if Dash Attack reflected projectiles? Basically like ROB's does. Gives him a way to deal with them. Maybe alter its frame data or strength so you can't just spam it against projectiles and never get touched.

I feel like the armour on DK dash attack protects him enough from most projectiles. Him reflecting proectiles with a move that has armour, fast, goes off ledges, covers a great deal of distance, and jump cancellable? I think ill have to draw the line, im all for buffs and fatties getting more tools BUT i dont like the idea of something out of character or just plain silly.

Now if it was bowser's dash attack getting a different use (like going off ledge and being jump cancellable) i can agree but thats because bowser's dash attack is pretty slow and baitable. But i could not justify a move like that straight up reflecting a projectile for many reasons on any character (even on bowser and im for buffing bowser all day). Normal attack's are usually just that... normal and it would be uncharacteristic for bowser, DK, anyone really to reflect a projectile with a dash attack or any normal attack. I would possibly be meta changing even (in a bad way).

Heres what i think, DK is lacking in a few things but i dont think approach, neutral, and punish is one of them.

 

[PlateProp]

Dk's armor on his Dash attack would already go through all projectiles in the game except chargeable ones. Squirtle's side b does this and DK's waaaay heavier than him. Why would it need to reflect as well?

 

[Bazkip]

I think that buffing damage too much would be making his kill potential too strong, easiest thing seems like cutting landing frames.

While it wasn't stated by nogh or DF I imagine compensating knockback is part of their plan for this idea, so it wouldn't increase his kill power.

 

[redbeanjelly]

What if DK had IASA on his aerial SideB trimmed down? That way when he uses it as a stall he doesn't lose as much air and he can actually capitalize on the opponent reading the stall incorrectly and successfully UpB back to stage.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

What if DK had IASA on his aerial SideB trimmed down? That way when he uses it as a stall he doesn't lose as much air and he can actually capitalize on the opponent reading the stall incorrectly and successfully UpB back to stage.

How about we make it jump cancellable? it can be a mix up, mometum stall, and fake out move. It doesnt seem to OP either

OR

Make the Fair (if you hold the A button) pop DK back up in the air if you land the move (shield or opponent).

Both options seem reasonable and would add mix ups

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

How about we make it jump cancellable? it can be a mix up, mometum stall, and fake out move. It doesnt seem to OP either

OR

Make the Fair (if you hold the A button) pop DK back up in the air if you land the move (shield or opponent).

Both options seem reasonable and would add mix ups

In regards to making fair pop you up if you hold a when hitting it. Dk has mediocre options when it comes to getting down, and is -5 on hit, so that would only put you in a worse spot. If you actually hit the fair with the current one, you can already combo into another fair, so nothing is really gained by the mixup, since the sheild stun will give you enough time to see if he pops himself up anyway.

Either way I only find kirby and bowser to truly be missing some competitive love, and think a few characters could stand some qol. Example, olimar recovery slightly sped up and landing lag reduced by 8. Kirby aerial acceleration slightly increased with an extremely minor ground speed buff. Bowser keeping a tad bit more momentum when he jumps, along with a few minor buffs to moves like up tilt and fair. Oh well that's my 2 cents till tipped off 11 makes us realize every character is in a good spot when the unknowns battle against some of the well known players.

Got to remind myself to play a few friendlies against ripple for a friend of mine if he's up for it.

 

[Player -0]

Life aren't G&W's tech rolls REALLY bad? You can cover pretty much any of his tech options with a Down Smash or react to it easily due to G&W not going that far. Like I can SH as Marth and react to either tech in place or tech rolls with Dair.

How about we make it jump cancellable? it can be a mix up, mometum stall, and fake out move. It doesnt seem to OP either

OR

Make the Fair (if you hold the A button) pop DK back up in the air if you land the move (shield or opponent).

Both options seem reasonable and would add mix ups

What?

Like these would be interesting Project M Minus ideas but in Project M? They're trying to be professional, keep character identity (in terms of Smash), and keep balance.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Heavies in smash/PM are inherently flawed and arguing about something as small as three frames on shield might be a step in the right direction but an overhaul in the entire design philosophy of heavy characters is needed to make them actually relevant again

and the smash community is so hilariously indoctrinated that people will complain about the possibility of dk's fair being negative on shield and constantly bring up the fact that he can 50/50 people to death from a grab

like cool yeah meanwhile one of the most mobile and non-committal characters in the game, falcon, has a kill move that's safe on shield, faster, and has less landing lag and can airwobble people into a knee with no opponent interaction, has guaranteed kill options into knee from like 50% onwards, and has guaranteed grab to knee followups

both these characters are badly designed, except one is good because of it and the other isn't

 

[Life]

Life aren't G&W's tech rolls REALLY bad? You can cover pretty much any of his tech options with a Down Smash or react to it easily due to G&W not going that far. Like I can SH as Marth and react to either tech in place or tech rolls with Dair.

Could be worse than I remember. 3/4 option coverage is obviously good on short tech rolls, but sometimes in the heat of the moment it's easier said than done, at least for me. But unless there's a tell I'm not seeing, GnW tech animations are pretty ambiguous, which are points in his favor.

Most of my punishes versus GnW come from juggling, outspacing his aerials, reading his recovery, and other assorted things that are supposedly impossible to do to GnW (maybe one of the reasons I don't think he's in the highest tier?).

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Game and Watch is super overrated right now. I mean, everybody thinks he's stupid, which I understand even though I disagree with it (for the most part). Gdubs still gets punished hard and his recovery isn't all the ****. Also his movement option are subpar so if you play really patient his neutral stops working.