Tier List Speculation

[Shokio]

I honestly think fatties are generally underrated a bit. Charizard and Bowser specifically are very unappreciated characters.

And this scares me. Becuase with the seemingly unanimous agreement that fatties are just "so undeniably bad and completely unviable ****-tier characters" (not being literal here), that they might end up receiving extra stuff just for the hell of it. Kinda like how Bowser received a new tech chase move and a spike in 3.6, just because of the Bowser mains who were complaining about how bad he was. It doesn't throw off his balance or anything and he's pretty much the same char, but at the same time it's something he didn't need at all and was just a treat thrown in there for complainers.

Like nimigoha said, I don't want them ending up getting stupid gimmicks. Some people joke about giving DK the whole coconut gun thing, but some people are actually serious when they say that. I feel that a lot of people who main fatties don't understand that it makes sense that they have the weaknesses that they do. "Omg why does Bowser have such a bad roll?" Uh, because he's f***ing Bowser??? Why should he have a decent roll? These are big, slow dudes. They're not supposed to be agile. They're supposed to be combo'd hard. They should struggle with projectiles pretty damn hard.

I know not everyone is complaining about these things but I've seen it all quite frequently.

It's like a player in another fighting game who mains a heavy-weight grappler archetype complaining that he character gets zoned easily and has no projectile. Or a spacie main complaining that he gets combo'd too hard. Or a Jiggs main complaining that she's too light. She's a freakin' balloon, it has to come with the territory.

tl;dr: Know what you're signing up for when you're choosing a main. I agree that they can use some specific individual tweaks to make them a little more streamlined, but I fear that this will be taken too far. These characters really aren't bad at all.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Ok, for reals though:

Each "fatty = " needs their issues addressed separately, though some universal things are shared:

-Especially weak to projectiles due to size
-Especially weak to being grabbed due to size
-Many moves are not "proportional" (Bowser's rolls and grab are poo-tier for proportional size, despite actually being "big", etc)


What specifics can we see for each of them?

I dont think hes really "fat"
A way to deal with projectiles and a recovery mix up
Jump issues addressed and a way to deal with projectiles
Stat increase.... idk i think hes almost good he just needs better frame data
I will leave this one alone, you all know i have 9001 ideas for this one.

I honestly think fatties are generally underrated a bit. Charizard and Bowser specifically are very unappreciated characters.

And this scares me. Becuase with the seemingly unanimous agreement that fatties are just "so undeniably bad and completely unviable ****-tier characters" (not being literal here), that they might end up receiving extra stuff just for the hell of it. Kinda like how Bowser received a new tech chase move and a spike in 3.6, just because of the Bowser mains who were complaining about how bad he was. It doesn't throw off his balance or anything and he's pretty much the same char, but at the same time it's something he didn't need at all and was just a treat thrown in there for complainers.

Like nimigoha said, I don't want them ending up getting stupid gimmicks. Some people joke about giving DK the whole coconut gun thing, but some people are actually serious when they say that. I feel that a lot of people who main fatties don't understand that it makes sense that they have the weaknesses that they do. "Omg why does Bowser have such a bad roll?" Uh, because he's f***ing Bowser??? Why should he have a decent roll? These are big, slow dudes. They're not supposed to be agile. They're supposed to be combo'd hard. They should struggle with projectiles pretty damn hard.

I know not everyone is complaining about these things but I've seen it all quite frequently.

It's like a player in another fighting game who mains a heavy-weight grappler archetype complaining that he character gets zoned easily and has no projectile. Or a spacie main complaining that he gets combo'd too hard. Or a Jiggs main complaining that she's too light. She's a freakin' balloon, it has to come with the territory.

tl;dr: Know what you're signing up for when you're choosing a main. I agree that they can use some specific individual tweaks to make them a little more streamlined, but I fear that this will be taken too far. These characters really aren't bad at all.

Care if i ask who you main and if you ever played as a fatty in tournament? There are unwinnable match ups and it sucks to be helpless because you want to play who you want.

 

[nimigoha]

I personally don't think that Ganondorf suffers nearly as much as the other fatties. He's got a burst grab and fast kill options, a crazy down throw, decent recovery... Players like Junebug have shown some high level Ganondorf play and it looks really solid.

I'd like his Nair to be like Falcon's again (more active frames, currently each kick is 2, Falcon's are 6 lol) and increase KB on Dthrow so it doesn't chain for long, and fix his grab range.

DDD I think needs some sort of defensive option. He feels too easy to lock down. Outside of that I know his Dair and Dtilt give DDD mains grief.

DK should have a bit more vertical recovery. Maybe shift the armour on his DA to Medium to work against projectiles more? His ground slam needs to be toned down though, either in KB or distance. It's like the freest tech chase button ever.

Don't know how to address Charizard as I don't really know what he suffers with outside of "he gets comboed hard"

Bowser... As brain dead as it was, his old DA powering through moves gave him a fighting chance in neutral. It could still be baited and punished, but it could punish random attacks by his opponent too. I figure that Odds has a few ideas up his sleeve that we'll see implemented next patch now that he's DT.

I honestly think fatties are generally underrated a bit. Charizard and Bowser specifically are very unappreciated characters.

And this scares me. Becuase with the seemingly unanimous agreement that fatties are just "so undeniably bad and completely unviable ****-tier characters" (not being literal here), that they might end up receiving extra stuff just for the hell of it. Kinda like how Bowser received a new tech chase move and a spike in 3.6, just because of the Bowser mains who were complaining about how bad he was. It doesn't throw off his balance or anything and he's pretty much the same char, but at the same time it's something he didn't need at all and was just a treat thrown in there for complainers.

Like nimigoha said, I don't want them ending up getting stupid gimmicks. Some people joke about giving DK the whole coconut gun thing, but some people are actually serious when they say that. I feel that a lot of people who main fatties don't understand that it makes sense that they have the weaknesses that they do. "Omg why does Bowser have such a bad roll?" Uh, because he's f***ing Bowser??? Why should he have a decent roll? These are big, slow dudes. They're not supposed to be agile. They're supposed to be combo'd hard. They should struggle with projectiles pretty damn hard.

I know not everyone is complaining about these things but I've seen it all quite frequently.

It's like a player in another fighting game who mains a heavy-weight grappler archetype complaining that he character gets zoned easily and has no projectile. Or a spacie main complaining that he gets combo'd too hard. Or a Jiggs main complaining that she's too light. She's a freakin' balloon, it has to come with the territory.

tl;dr: Know what you're signing up for when you're choosing a main. I agree that they can use some specific individual tweaks to make them a little more streamlined, but I fear that this will be taken too far. These characters really aren't bad at all.

They're "PM bad" though. In that they have solid punish games and can combo and 0-death and kill well and all that kinda stuff, they're just slightly worse in general than other character archetypes. And the entire idea of PM is "main who you like", the entire idea of balancing is that some people don't lose when they pick a main. It's unfair to say "they're fatties lol whatcha gonna do?"

I fear overbuffing them as well. I think the DT has done a good job of making sure they're not too fast or too agile, as they all have hard-hitting moves that could stomp all over the tier list.

Bowser I think has legitimate problems as a character, and is deserving of his own "I desperately need to be fixed" tier. Everyone else can compete with other characters much more evenly.

My big fear is overbuffing DK. He obviously has problems but he also has his fair share of BS. Remove too many of his weaknesses and he'll become way too overbearing. Seriously guys, play a DK who employs hand slap properly. It's terrifying. Or his 50/50 kill mixups that can also combo at lower percents. Or guaranteed kill setups at loads of percents. Or his initial intangible hitbox of Spinning Kong that will kill you if you space improperly. Or the fact that getting caught in Spinning Kong can do ~35%. Not trying to whine because he has a lot of things you can exploit but he's still "PM bad" in that he's still very strong in many categories.

I think the key to buffing "fatties" is giving them tools that deal with their weaknesses but not simultaneously over-increasing their already great strengths.

 

[JOE!]

Problem with the mindset of making heavies agile because "their moves are strong" is that you got stuff like Pika/Fox with their Usmashes and godlike mobility, Captain Falcon hits like a heavy while only having less movement than Sonic, Marth is fast with heavyweight reach and KO power (when it works), and so on.

 

[nimigoha]

Problem with the mindset of making heavies agile because "their moves are strong" is that you got stuff like Pika/Fox with their Usmashes and godlike mobility, Captain Falcon hits like a heavy while only having less movement than Sonic, Marth is fast with heavyweight reach and KO power (when it works), and so on.

Yep, that's definitely an issue. In general though, I've found that most characters are spread okay. Of course many characters have strong moves but most of them (Fox... what's your deal man. Falcon you too sorta) have their fair share of weaker moves too. Think about Pikachu's Dash Attack, or Marth's Uair, or Sonic's Utilt (obviously they have more use at higher percents and have uses outside of hitting people far, except Pika's DA lol wtf is that garbage). Pretty much every "fatty" move is going to hit you far even at like 10%. Falcon's Uair doesn't kill until like 160% (generalization).

Of course there are exceptions to this, but generally the vast majority of fatties' movesets are hard hitting. If you make them all faster then they're going to run you down and kill you at 100% with whatever move they want.

DK and Charizard already have great mobility, I think their power vs speed is balanced quite well, it's other things that need toning.

 

[Binary Clone]

Problem with the mindset of making heavies agile because "their moves are strong" is that you got stuff like Pika/Fox with their Usmashes and godlike mobility, Captain Falcon hits like a heavy while only having less movement than Sonic, Marth is fast with heavyweight reach and KO power (when it works), and so on.

In practical terms, though, doesn't Falcon still have better movement than Sonic? If I recall correctly, Sonic has atypical acceleration on his run, and so he'll barely outrun Fox in any scenario besides just running across the whole stage. Falcon has really good burst movement in his dashes and run, so I would think that in most cases, especially the more useful ones, Falcon outclasses Sonic in terms of movement.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Sonic runs parallel with Falcon at about frame 7 iirc. The differences are negligible within dashdance ranges - if you enter teeter on the outer edge of a BF platform, drop through, and have them both run off the ledge, they'll both go airborne on frame 7. They'll have the same timing for running off small platforms as well; it's only when you get up to distances around the length of a BF platform that Sonic gets any meaningful lead (goes airborne one frame sooner).

 

[Shokio]

I dont think hes really "fat"
A way to deal with projectiles and a recovery mix up
Jump issues addressed and a way to deal with projectiles
Stat increase.... idk i think hes almost good he just needs better frame data
I will leave this one alone, you all know i have 9001 ideas for this one.




Care if i ask who you main and if you ever played as a fatty in tournament? There are unwinnable match ups and it sucks to be helpless because you want to play who you want.

I play ZSS and Olimar. Two chars that happen to body the fat guys.

That being said, I know that they can do some very nasty things to my characters. I can agree that the fatties probably have the worst MU's spreads; My intention of my comment was not to say that the fatties don't need help - cause they do - but rather just to state that people make them seem so much worse than they actually are.

If people want to see a pretty bad character who can't win shiit, play 3.5 Olimar or Pit. Ew.

Anyways, I've never played a fatty in tourney because I'm not adept with any of them. But you're comment about being "helpless" is exactly what I'm talking about. Chill, it's NOT that bad. Yes I don't play these chars in tourney but I do play Bowser and Charizard in other environments so I know how hard it is to deal with a character such as Link/Tink. But there's nothing in this game that is actually unwinnable and I will always stay by those words.

Believing in that mindset will only prevent you from exceeding your character's weaknesses. People focus too much on what their character can't do and not enough on what they can do. Try playing at your characters' strengths. Most people I see who play heavy-weights don't even play to their archetype! Someone will play a hasty Bowser or a rush-down DDD and then complain when they get bopped. Wut.

 

[Binary Clone]

Anyways, I've never played a fatty in tourney because I'm not adept with any of them. But you're comment about being "helpless" is exactly what I'm talking about. Chill, it's NOT that bad. Yes I don't play these chars in tourney but I do play Bowser and Charizard in other environments so I know how hard it is to deal with a character such as Link/Tink. But there's nothing in this game that is actually unwinnable and I will always stay by those words.

I don't really like nitpicking with people most of the time, but I think ICs v Bowser is probably the closest thing in the game to being legitimately unwinnable. SoPo chaingrabs, easy-mode handoffs, easy grabs, lose in neutral. It's hard to say any matchup is unwinnable strictly speaking, but I don't think a high-level Bowser fighting a high-level ICs playing near optimally has much of a chance.

That said, yeah, I agree. I think everyone is tournament viable. Fatties just are on the low end of that right now.

 

[DMG]

I mean D3 doesn't have choices though. You can do a million things, including playing Flappy Bird with D3 like Ripple does sometimes, and that may not mean anything in the MU.

 

[nimigoha]

I dunno, I think if the Falcon knows what he's doing, then he can beat Bowser every time. I think it's an unwinnable matchup. If Falcon gets hasty then Bowser can easily kill him but Falcon is the master of bait and punish, and Bowser has an incredibly hard time dealing with that.

And yeah ICs as well probably.

 

[Bazkip]

Regarding Ganon not being a "fatty", while he definitely has it a bit better than the "true fatties" his ability to be comboed due to his size is significantly greater than the rest of the cast, so he should still be grouped in with the fatties. I think the main reason people might think of him as not is due to the simple fact that they forget how big he is. Just go look at him in game standing next to the likes of Falcon, Ike, Snake etc. and you'll see what I mean.

nimigoha

imo all Junebug has shown with Ganon is that he's only viable as a counterpick character on small stages.
Also Falcon's nair is active 6 frames then 10 frames because lolfalcon.

I think the best solution for dthrow is to make it purely a follow up throw, extensive chaingrabs on huge portions of the cast are a bit silly.

Shokio I think you might be misrepresenting our thoughts on fatties. Nobody is saying they shouldn't have weaknesses, we're saying that their weaknesses are currently too much to overcome with their strengths.

 

[Nausicaa]

People focus too much on what their character can't do and not enough on what they can do. Try playing at your characters' strengths. Most people I see who play heavy-weights don't even play to their archetype! Someone will play a hasty Bowser or a rush-down DDD and then complain when they get bopped. Wut.

This is common it seems, but there are a few who constantly advocate this kind of direction too.

What CAN the character do?
If played to this COMPLETELY, how close can they come to dealing with each individual match-up in the game?
If there are some match-ups that seem a little stupider than they should be (difficult), what things WITHIN THEIR COMPLETENESS can be done to help them? (a little bit of help, not a bunch to win a hard match-up or something)
If there are some match-ups that are COMPLETELY screwed, is there a very specific things in it that is messing it up, and can something WITHIN THEIR COMPLETENESS be altered in a way to fix it?

Ganon is a mouse-trap. Everything seems safe, but you can never really be sure if it is.
-He plays to working his way slowly through mix-ups across a stage to corner an opponent with NON-committing NON-neutral-breaking options.
-Then does some kind of threatening mix of moves to land a hit WITHIN his limited but somewhat committing options with an over-extension.

If Ganon struggles, how can you make his Mouse-Trap better? (which is in play both in cornering and landing the hit)
- Float is solid.
- A mobile command-grab helps a lot.
Something like a walling-N-air doesn't really fit the mouse-trap theme and probably belongs on someone like Ivy/Kirby/Zelda more than him.

Playing to using his Mouse-Trap tools is what will make him stronger. Floating and moving Grabs and his slow moves (Aerials/Tilts) mixed with specific speedy options (Jab/Dash Attack) do this well.
As a Mouse-Trap, more TOOLS in the mouse-trap vortex is what will help him. Obviously.
I'd be looking for something like giving his Up-B more sliding on the ground so it has even MORE range OOS. Maybe even give it more KB when it's grounded. It's a thing that gives uncertainty to hitting Ganon's shield, is NOT his normal Grab, but it's commitment for the Ganon. Mouse-Trap.
Up-B OOS is already pretty solid...
BUT
The questions are there...

Does Up-B OOS in Ganon's mouse-trap vortex fill a good role and well?
Can this be used more as-is to deal with niche things he struggles with?
Would having more horizontal range on it IMPROVE Ganon in the sense that he'll be better WITHIN HIS COMPLETENESS?

I'm sure the DT deals with that kind of thing a lot, and they've done well.
As soon as THAT understanding is lost, though, that's when you end up with a linearized and boring game of DD > Touch-of-Death Bros copy-pasta edition.
At least I have a strong hunch and a bit of faith that peeps like Shadic know what's up... probs an incarnation of Dr.Who that shady bugger, and knows stuff nobody else can know. Too strong


DK (and Zard fits here as well I guess) is defensively lacking and basically needs to play a bit of a campy distance game to be threatening while NOT in trouble. Their raw ability to get BIG punishes is insane, their raw ability to convert TO their punishes is insane, their range and speed combo is insane.
Ask the same questions.

What CAN the character do?
If played to this COMPLETELY, how close can they come to dealing with each individual match-up in the game?
If there are some match-ups that seem a little stupider than they should be (difficult), what things WITHIN THEIR COMPLETENESS can be done to help them? (a little bit of help, not a bunch to win a hard match-up or something)
If there are some match-ups that are COMPLETELY screwed, is there a very specific things in it that is messing it up, and can something WITHIN THEIR COMPLETENESS be altered in a way to fix it?

Bowser is the closest we've ever come to having a fatty play like a normal character. The 3.6b update was a savior, everyone just did the old 'crucify the f***er' out of hasty ignorance without seeing the possibility of what it was presenting us, and he was resurrected in 3.6. In due time, the teachingscoughpatches will spread and the Bowser-is-as-should-be will be written in full. cmart is Shadic's companion in time-lording me thinks. Some jazz like that.

Ooze is Ooze

Edit/PS: There's a theme here regarding the concept of the 'whole'
Look at the 'each'
The 'each's' make up the whole.
This is what this entire 'bad character' thing is about. This Fatty Discussion is completely about that.
Goodness, swatted away but completely ridiculous matches due to character selection.
This is what makes a Fatty a Baddy. NOT their overall badness, just their badness in a niche. Getting combo'd has nothing to do with it, but that can be a factor if being a glass-canon is only working 1 way. Getting camped has nothing to do with it, but that can be a factor if landing a hit is only working 1 way. There are ways they can get hits and get kills, play TO these strengths, do not play AGAINST them and their weaknesses.
If that makes sense.
(play-to referring to mind-set and as well as 'tier-placement' AKA how they may need patching in the future)

This game can NOT be looked at in terms of general-buffs when discussing an individual character IF THEIR PROBLEM IS NICHE. Like a Fatty's problem. It's NICHE. Not general-for-the-game.

There's a line here that needs to be understood though.
As Hylian was mentioning about ICs, but as applicable to anyone from TL to Kirby to ROB to Snake to whatever, adjusting something on a character for one specific match-up does a LOT more than fix a match-up. It can change the entire way the game is played with them, the entire character. Instead of 'fixing' match-ups by adjusting characters to NOT have huge disadvantages/advantages, it has to follow this.
If the character is 'generally a baddy' in the 'whole' game, then 'tuning' the 'each' match-ups that make the game 'stupid' will deal with the whole.
If the 'whole' is bad, looking at the 'each' in a wholesome way is required. (Bowser)

Bowser, I will leave this one alone, you all know i have 9001 ideas for this one.

I figure that Odds has a few ideas up his sleeve that we'll see implemented next patch

If the 'whole' is good, but the 'each' has some bad, both require attention. (DK)

Fear over-buffing DK. DK plays like fat Falcon with his bait>punish style and dirty combo game. DD outside of range and punish whiff, fly across screen (not to that degree lol) with aerials.

Exactly that^
Otherwise ya gonna go don mess it up

 

[nimigoha]

DK plays like fat Falcon with his bait>punish style and dirty combo game. DD outside of range and punish whiff, fly across screen (not to that degree lol) with aerials.

 

[Nausicaa]

This is Tier List talk though, not fatty buff talk.

This is what happened last time I showed up in this thread after a break...
People were talking about Kirby and Roy and whoever else needing' changes' rather than what they're capable of as characters. Then I came a re-railed the Thread into long-drawn discussions about Ike and what a neutral-game is.

Can you go back to talking about how Bowser/Ganon/DK/Char/Ooze can do things?
They can do things, screw buffs/nerfs/changes, even if they're bottom-garbo tier, how DO they play against the characters that they aren't stupidfied by (don't talk about ICs, gimme the run-down on the Char vs ROB and Bowser vs Lucas match-ups.
Char camp a bit or can he play like an aggressor there? Bowser gotta go defensive fade-back jumping and plat-camping or try to control stage and take space to stop the opponent?
Just examples, but talk about WHAT IS COOL instead.
Game has too much cool stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, for reals though:

Each "fatty = " needs their issues addressed separately, though some universal things are shared:

i actually think ganon and zard are good as they are more or less, they're powerful enough to perform in the metagame, they're fun to play, and they're dynamic enough to overcome their weaknesses with talented play. the real issue with DDD DK and bowser is that they lack that last category; they tend to be linear and when their tools don't work they just kinda fold. but thats hardly representative of the character archetype on the whole.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I can somewhat see Zard in that territory, less so Ganondorf. Optimal counterplay to Ganondorf on any medium to large stage tends to devolve into playing as lame and reactive as humanly possible so as to deny him any opportunity for positive interaction. He's viable as a counterpick on small stages, sure, but I'd like to see improvements in his ability to navigate larger stages without overly affecting his options on stages like WL where he's already potent. The mousetrap Nausicaa talked about is already mostly solid, the main deficiency I see right now is in his ability to set up and enforce that trap if his opponent has sufficient mobility, space, and inclination to lame him out. If the opponent has to interact and respect his corner pressure then he's golden.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Dk has problems with projectiles, but beats samus the mistress of projectiles. I want you to just think about that for a bit -.-

He needs a better recovery, but has horizontal drift as a mixup that is only easy to take out with disjoint, and messing up makes you take 34%. Beats wario roy marth bowser ike samus pikachu. So please think long and hard before giving this character more than just better normalized defensive tools and better item toss animations.

 

[prem]

My opinion might actually be biased because Thunderz is in my region, but really DK is a perfectly strong character and I don't think he needs any real changes after playing against him, playing with him, and talking about him with Thunderz a lot.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I play ZSS and Olimar. Two chars that happen to body the fat guys.

That being said, I know that they can do some very nasty things to my characters. I can agree that the fatties probably have the worst MU's spreads; My intention of my comment was not to say that the fatties don't need help - cause they do - but rather just to state that people make them seem so much worse than they actually are.

If people want to see a pretty bad character who can't win shiit, play 3.5 Olimar or Pit. Ew.

Anyways, I've never played a fatty in tourney because I'm not adept with any of them. But you're comment about being "helpless" is exactly what I'm talking about. Chill, it's NOT that bad. Yes I don't play these chars in tourney but I do play Bowser and Charizard in other environments so I know how hard it is to deal with a character such as Link/Tink. But there's nothing in this game that is actually unwinnable and I will always stay by those words.

Believing in that mindset will only prevent you from exceeding your character's weaknesses. People focus too much on what their character can't do and not enough on what they can do. Try playing at your characters' strengths. Most people I see who play heavy-weights don't even play to their archetype! Someone will play a hasty Bowser or a rush-down DDD and then complain when they get bopped. Wut.

Diddy, TL, falcon, fox, IC, and MAYBE Link

All unwinnable match ups if the other players knows how to play.
I dont play hasty, but if im forced to approach i will. I also cant just play defensively against falcon (his options invalidate everything). And IC... well Hand offs.

Feel free to tell me what i can do against a good falcon, fox, TL, or IC. Also apparently ganon is a nasty match up to but i never met it.

I'm also not focusing on what i cant do, i play right, patient, and have the tech skill to back it up. Its just whenever i see one of these characters i have to think about going to a lame secondary or see if they know the match up just because i want to win.


EDIT

Since some one put bowser in his personal "fix Me" tier

I propose we look at all of bowser's current tools and talk about if its useful for not.

I'll start by saying that bowsers normal throws are over shadowed by KK throws and for having 7 different throws he only has 3 actual things so i'd like to address back throw, down throw and up throw (all overshadowed by the KK variants.)

Up throw is slow, easy to di, and only does 10%.
KK forward throw is faster (can be sped up), harder to di, leads into a regrab if DI'd bad, and does 15%.

Down throw does 16% and im not 100% what its suppose to actually does after they made this weight dependent you cant properly follow up with a down smash.
Down KK does 15% and sets a tech chase up and COVERS all options on the ledge.

Back throw does 10%, kills at like 150-170%
KK back throw does 15% (check it i may be wrong) and kills at like 100-120%.

Couple this with a slow and bad grab range/speed/cool down. The only reason i use a normal throw is out of a dash grab or a shield grab and 80% of the time im using it for position since nothing else SHOULD come out of a normal grab. (but theres better options for that too)

Also his Dair is often out prioritised, hardly any disjoint, and not a spike/meteor. I only found 1 use for this move and thats as a degenerate ledge option against people not respecting the ledge already.

 

[Boiko]

Diddy, TL, falcon, fox, IC, and MAYBE Link

All unwinnable match ups if the other players knows how to play.
I dont play hasty, but if im forced to approach i will. I also cant just play defensively against falcon (his options invalidate everything). And IC... well Hand offs.

Feel free to tell me what i can do against a good falcon, fox, TL, or IC. Also apparently ganon is a nasty match up to but i never met it.

I'm also not focusing on what i cant do, i play right, patient, and have the tech skill to back it up. Its just whenever i see one of these characters i have to think about going to a lame secondary or see if they know the match up just because i want to win.


EDIT

Since some one put bowser in his personal "fix Me" tier

I propose we look at all of bowser's current tools and talk about if its useful for not.

I'll start by saying that bowsers normal throws are over shadowed by KK throws and for having 7 different throws he only has 3 actual things so i'd like to address back throw, down throw and up throw (all overshadowed by the KK variants.)

Up throw is slow, easy to di, and only does 10%.
KK forward throw is faster (can be sped up), harder to di, leads into a regrab if DI'd bad, and does 15%.

Down throw does 16% and im not 100% what its suppose to actually does after they made this weight dependent you cant properly follow up with a down smash.
Down KK does 15% and sets a tech chase up and COVERS all options on the ledge.

Back throw does 10%, kills at like 150-170%
KK back throw does 15% (check it i may be wrong) and kills at like 100-120%.

Couple this with a slow and bad grab range/speed/cool down. The only reason i use a normal throw is out of a dash grab or a shield grab and 80% of the time im using it for position since nothing else SHOULD come out of a normal grab. (but theres better options for that too)

Also his Dair is often out prioritised, hardly any disjoint, and not a spike/meteor. I only found 1 use for this move and thats as a degenerate ledge option against people not respecting the ledge already.

Why should his significantly faster regular grab have equal or greater reward than his slower, harder to connect command grab?

Is changing his dair to a spike or meteor realistically going to change anything in the Falcon, Tink, Diddy, etc., match ups? What about changing his grabs? Does it matter if he has better follow ups rather than positional throws if you can never grab these characters anyway?

This just sounds like buffs for the sake of buffs as they wouldn't realistically help Bowser in a meaningful way.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Why should his significantly faster regular grab have equal or greater reward than his slower, harder to connect command grab?

Is changing his dair to a spike or meteor realistically going to change anything in the Falcon, Tink, Diddy, etc., match ups? What about changing his grabs? Does it matter if he has better follow ups rather than positional throws if you can never grab these characters anyway?

This just sounds like buffs for the sake of buffs as they wouldn't realistically help Bowser in a meaningful way.

I was simply saying that bowser has a lot of tools that do the same thing. What makes characters have a good grab game? They have a throw that actually has meaning to it, from a positional advantage or a kill throw, mix up, tech chase. Alot of bowsers throws either do the same thing or doesnt match this criteria at all And His dair has very little use.

Also its going to be hard to argue that his KK is harder to land considering its a command grab with a longer range (oh and it has a hit box in case that grab range dont cover it).

I get what your saying, and it brings nothing meaningful to the MU's in question. BUT that was not my point (hence why i seperated it without double posting). What would help those matches would be better neutral and a way to deal with projectiles or cross up pressure.

I appreciate the input but the two were seperate ideas and topics not to crossed up with.

EDIT

However i will admit, the Dair is more of a personal taste change for me, but the move is pretty useless.
Like i said, i have 9001 ideas but no one is willing to listen to anything radical even if its needed

 

[nimigoha]

Bowser needs neutral game buffs. That's it. Give him counterplea to people DDing and waiting for him to commit, or let him do it back to them just as well.

Giving other random things that don't affect neutral is a bad idea because he'll still be unable to compete in neutral and then when his neutral is buffed, he'll have more ridiculous tools.

Dk has problems with projectiles, but beats samus the mistress of projectiles. I want you to just think about that for a bit -.-

He needs a better recovery, but has horizontal drift as a mixup that is only easy to take out with disjoint, and messing up makes you take 34%. Beats wario roy marth bowser ike samus pikachu. So please think long and hard before giving this character more than just better normalized defensive tools and better item toss animations.

People sleep so hard on DK. Like, he's a character without projectiles or big disjoint that "struggles with projectiles".

His Nair goes straight through them, his Bair goes straight through them and has enough reach to punish whoever shot them. He has light armour on his DA, he has Ftilt...

My DK playing partner was losing to my Falco like 80% of the time until he learned to powershield lasers with like 50% accuracy. Which means he can run up>powershield>shield grab and whoops there goes my stock.

I feel like not enough people play against good DKs. What are you guys basing your opinions on? It can't be watching vods, SG finals was Poob vs Sora for months lol. Thunderzreign has some really sick vods. A DK is 4th on the Ontario PR right now.

Maybe you guys are just playing against bad DKs that drop combos or don't play neutral correctly and so get bodied.

The worst part is that it becomes an echo chamber. The same things are repeated over and over again until everyone just takes them as fact.

DK has problems. He has a fast falling speed and is quite heavy, he may be one of the most universally easy-to-combo characters in the game (might give the edge to the faster fallers but they're not as heavy). But he actually has a very usable neutral game and getting him on the receiving end of crazy combos actually requires thought and skill, unlike Bowser.

Also it's my DK partner's birthday today, I'm feeling extra DK defensive.

 

[AceGamer]

KK doesn't go as far as you think actually, well the grab box anyway. Found this on reddit a few days back
http://i.imgur.com/L6fOejv.png
http://gfycat.com/GaseousBlankAcaciarat

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser needs neutral game buffs. That's it. Give him counterplea to people DDing and waiting for him to commit, or let him do it back to them just as well.

Giving other random things that don't affect neutral is a bad idea because he'll still be unable to compete in neutral and then when his neutral is buffed, he'll have more ridiculous tools.

I feel like dair is not a tool at all. It has no real purpose. So it could be converted into a neutral tool or be made more useful in whatever its suppose to accomplish.

Also would throws that DONT the same thing be considered a punish buff? Maybe i just dont see the use in them. If i land a grab its because i shield grabbed or punished a get up attack not because i thought "hey one of bowser's throws would be useful right now"

KK doesn't go as far as you think actually, well the grab box anyway. Found this on reddit a few days back
http://i.imgur.com/L6fOejv.png
http://gfycat.com/GaseousBlankAcaciarat

I hate to be a pain and question this, BUT doesnt bowser lunge forward some? I would like to know the actual comparison of a standing grab to the KK grab (ill omit the hit box because its not technically what we are talking about even though its a part of the move)



MY POINT IS THIS

Look at foxes' moves, every move has a general use, i can not think of one move that doesnt fulfill its use or is overshadowed by another move. Same with diddy. Same with falco. Everything has a specific purpose.

Bowser has 3 more grabs yet i can argue that 4/7 of them are either the same or have no real purpose outside of damage. I can also pick out quite a few moves that do the same thing or overall dont serve a real purpose. (dair for example, its a disrespectful suicide kill move at best and any other use can be done better by a different move).

Does that make sense?

 

[Life]

Bowser's dair is useful for gimping certain recoveries (e.g. spacies) similarly to the way Kirby dair works. He has trouble recovering afterwards, but so what?

Buff Bowser's initial dash again and see what happens.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Bowser's dair is useful for gimping certain recoveries (e.g. spacies) similarly to the way Kirby dair works. He has trouble recovering afterwards, but so what?

Buff Bowser's initial dash again and see what happens.

Not any better than Bair, i wouldn't call that a use and you just said it yourself, youll likely die also (especially if you mean how i think you said it). Now that i think of it, you can use Down smash, bowser bomb, get up attack, or any of bowsers amazing edge guard options and i would dare not say that dair is a good option for gimps or edge guards.

I think a boost to bowser's air momentum and ground speed would be a good start.

 

[Keman]

I see a lot of talk here about this matchup and I love video evidence of it when people are discussing it. Isn't Phresh considered one of the best IC's players out there right now?(along with Hylian and Fumbles) he gets taken to last stock last hit of Game 3 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSURX_oDeG0

is it really the closest thing in the game to being legitimately unwinnable? I know nothing about these match ups with bowser, just seems hard for them to be as bad as people are saying they are :/ Hell if I know thoe, I just watch top players play the match ups I will never be in their positions to play them at that level.

 

[nimigoha]

I see a lot of talk here about this matchup and I love video evidence of it when people are discussing it. Isn't Phresh considered one of the best IC's players out there right now?(along with Hylian and Fumbles) he gets taken to last stock last hit of Game 3 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSURX_oDeG0

is it really the closest thing in the game to being legitimately unwinnable? I know nothing about these match ups with bowser, just seems hard for them to be as bad as people are saying they are :/ Hell if I know thoe, I just watch top players play the match ups I will never be in their positions to play them at that level.

1) This is 3.5, so not exactly indicative of the matchup right now.
2) Phresh wasn't playing well. I've seen him do a lot better than that, he was missing easy regrabs.

I'm not trying to make excuses but that set was hardly representative of the matchup played at its best.

 

[NOTMalachi]

I see a lot of talk here about this matchup and I love video evidence of it when people are discussing it. Isn't Phresh considered one of the best IC's players out there right now?(along with Hylian and Fumbles) he gets taken to last stock last hit of Game 3 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSURX_oDeG0

is it really the closest thing in the game to being legitimately unwinnable? I know nothing about these match ups with bowser, just seems hard for them to be as bad as people are saying they are :/ Hell if I know thoe, I just watch top players play the match ups I will never be in their positions to play them at that level.

Phresh was still pretty bad back then. This was actually his breakout performance with ics. He's much better now

 

[Keman]

Phresh was still pretty bad back then. This was actually his breakout performance with ics. He's much better now

ah ok I know you would know, so I guess that is just a bad representation of the match up.

 

[DMG]

IC Bowser MU probably doesn't have that much development tbh. How many people play IC's, and counter to that how many people play Bowser in the lamo way expected for MU's like IC's?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

IC Bowser MU probably doesn't have that much development tbh. How many people play IC's, and counter to that how many people play Bowser in the lamo way expected for MU's like IC's?

I post what me and fumbles talked about once i go on break at my job, But trust me when i say the bowser IC MU is way worse than this video shown 3.5 or not.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

1) This is 3.5, so not exactly indicative of the matchup right now.
2) Phresh wasn't playing well. I've seen him do a lot better than that, he was missing easy regrabs.

I'm not trying to make excuses but that set was hardly representative of the matchup played at its best.

This is the conversation i had with fumbles

I may edit out the names for privacy purposes

October 22nd, 11:39am
Hey Matt I had a question about that footstool regrab involving bowser. Mainly the question of of bowser could DI the footstool would it eacape the regrab? I can't test this myself because I suck at IC tech. Also are there any other mid stage "infinites" besides the footstool now? And finally can you 0-death big characters off a grab or can they mash out until a certain percent?

Friday 5:45am

they can mash out typically at low low percents, id say wobble ranges. its very hard to get nana to short hop on big characters so the range would be like 60% for mashing if i mess up.


i havent worked on learning some infinites, but ive got a couple suspicions that one exist. the footstool seem to not be a true infinite on smaller characters, again...needs testing


DI doesnt matter for a character like bowser at all. usually i make nana cover the DI in with the footstool so that they di away and i can get a sopo regrab or throw off their survival DI. not with bowser.


DI away from sopo chaingrab at low percents to get off stage, at high DI in to go high enough where i cant regrab and to survive smashes

Friday 6:56am
What infinite are you referring to? Like what do you suspect exists? Also so on a big character, as long as you don't mess up you can regrab them indefinitely?

Friday 8:54pm

i dont know why pm players are so surprised about infinites >_> its a regular thing in melee. anyway, im talking about the downthrow footstool. i suspect a forwardthrow nana pivot grab forward throw back to popo exist, but i cant get her to throw back to me 100% of the time. an AI glitch.


big characters i can regrab without having to read the di on the footstool. smaller characters can DI in/out and i have to adjust nana for the footstool to connect. however, big characters force nana more often to jump too high so they typically have more time to mash out


hopefully pm is revived and i can play with some crazy ICs tech

Saturday 11:22am
I hope pm gets revived also, maybe when pm gold gets released or when characters stop getting nerfed so much. Granted I hear they are going to Give bowser some more buffs and a neutral tool so I'm pretty okay with that. Also been experimenting with ledge options with bowser. Gonna test them out today at UC. You should come some time. You would be the best player there since currently it's between me and tomo at grands. Good chance to play secondaries

Chat Conversation End

 

[drakargx]

You realize that if you post something it doesn't matter if you change it because someone could look back in an archive to see what it was before, right?

Like if privacy is of any concern you'd omit the names before posting it at all

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Well aware, i doubt anyone is gonna bug either of us on facebook anyway

 

[_Chrome]

What if fortress was a projectile?

Isn't fortress pretty much already a projectile?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I figure that Odds has a few ideas up his sleeve that we'll see implemented next patch now that he's DT.

inb4 waveshelling

see you in GFs

 

[nimigoha]

inb4 waveshelling

see you in GFs

Make pressing Shield while in grounded fortress airdodge.

So crazy, so janky, could actually maybe solve some of his neutral.

 

[_Chrome]

Btw y'all, I for one do not support making Bowser faster. I think we should take baby steps with the heavies, such as giving Bowser a better grab range and adjusting Charizard to be faster and less defensive. About Zard, shouldn't he be actually good in the air and at approaching? Yet in a lot of MUs I'm forced to sit back and play defensively with tilts and nair and jab, and try to find an opening by DDing. From a design point of view, shouldn't he be a high risk-high reward character while being super aggressive and lacking in the defence department?

Call me crazy but I don't think Zard is in a good spot right now; the main reason I dropped him. Charizard may have a fast dash speed, but he feels slow. His air speed isn't great and he falls too slowly to be properly aggressive. Maybe the first step with him could be faster movement, netted defensive options and maybe a better grab range.

In any case, I'm no pro but I can tell you that changes need to be made and that maybe this is a start for these two.