Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

I'd rather bring attributes on characters closer together than spreading them farther apart

instead of making squirtle lighter, I'd just make him slightly bigger. Decreasing weight to keep his current size would only create more problems while keeping his current ones.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Personally, I find him fine right now. Yeah, it's a little stupid that his weight's 82 at that size conceptually, but balance wise I think it's fine. Making him larger would mean that he'd probably need some other tweaks to compensate for his ability to avoid being hit.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'd rather bring attributes on characters closer together than spreading them farther apart

instead of making squirtle lighter, I'd just make him slightly bigger. Decreasing weight to keep his current size would only create more problems while keeping his current ones.

Any other attribute I'd agree with you on, but weight already has a very small effect on the game, meanwhile characters tend to be overcompensated for the relatively small benefit of high weight.

Pursuing that tangent for a bit, TBH I wish all throws would be normalized to have weight dependent animations+ being slightly more of a detriment/benefit to survivability/etc. I know that's not gonna happen but I will say that spreading out weight attributes (within an already existing range no less) when their range isn't actually that big to begin with doesn't seem like a problem to me design-wise

 

[Deleted member]

Weight is probably one of the MOST important attributes in the game. It affects how your character deals with weight dependent throws, what % they die at, how long they can CC certain things, etc.

Most character attributes are pretty important. I can't think of many things in the attributes tab that you could nerf and "have a very small effect on the game"

 

[Ner0]

Even with the simulators, so many characters have been overhauled/buffed/nerfed(sometimes in regards to their vmelee status) and added to the game that mechanical similarities have become almost meaningless when it comes to actually listing characters on their matchups against the rest of their cast in a unified engine.

oh that makes a lot of sense, but still players from melee are going to retain their playability, its just going to have to factor in the newer competitors

 

[Frost | Odds]

It seems like my Pikachu is messing too much with my Melee Marth by virtue of his jumpsquat being so fast and forgiving, and something about his movement and how jumpy he is, is just giving me bad habits for Bowser and Marth.

I might have to go back to Pit for a while. Life

Hopefully I'm wrong about Pit's viability. :s

 

[Life]

It seems like my Pikachu is messing too much with my Melee Marth by virtue of his jumpsquat being so fast and forgiving, and something about his movement and how jumpy he is, is just giving me bad habits for Bowser and Marth.

I might have to go back to Pit for a while. Life

Hopefully I'm wrong about Pit's viability. :s

If jumpsquat changes are actually a problem for you... Pika's three, Marth's four, Pit's five, right?

Play who you want to play tho. It's what I tell everyone.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I agree with this... BUT do we really want a character that has a 45-55 for or against in EVERY match up? I mean i understand thats the goal and in theory it makes it so the character doesn't lose but the opponent does (which i agree with) but is it a good idea to give a character a straight even cut across the board?

Also pits arrows are mere shadows to what they use to be, they barely even hit stun anymore.

I feel like zero and armada dropped pm when they learned how unstable a character really is and maybe not really pit.

Pit's consistent matchup spread is partly a product of efforts at balancing, partly a function of his core design. Even in Brawl and SSB4 his matchups are pretty even across most of the cast, with significant skews only against characters that are notable outliers in terms of potential (Brawl MK and half a dozen or so bottom tier characters). I don't see why such a spread would be taken as a problem.

Arrow nerfs make them slightly less good, but they're still good in the ways that he needs. Kind of like how nerfing Fox's laser damage didn't really change his gameplan, just made pewpew marginally less rewarding per unit time.

Why play pit when there's like 5 other characters that fill his niche better and are actually fun?

I like Pit. Not enough to bring him up to a comain, but if he was less clunky then I might put a little time in with him on the side. I already have plenty of

For characters that need these multi hits as a launcher, there's a fine balance between being able to sdi out when attempting to, and having people falling out by accident.

^that (and other issues) to deal with on another character though, not gonna do the same with Pit right now.

 

[DMG]

Ya Odds Pikachu messed with my other chars so I stopped using him as much. One day I will bring back PIRAT Pikachu to the world but today is not that day

 

[Frost | Odds]

**** you I play PIRAT Pikachu

he's baller af though

 

[_Chrome]

Actually I believe that Pikachu's Pokemon Trainer gangsta' lid style is the top tier "baller af" selection, with PIRAT Pikachu being a close second. Gangsta' lid style is so swag... I mean have you seen his ears?!?

Besides that, I think we all can agree that Pit is missing something that makes him feel complete. I personally think he should have his U-Smash fixed and be faster: It would fit well with the glide and his dagger attacks to make him have a combination of control with the arrows and aggression with SHFFLs. But I don't know too much about the character and even then that still seems a little incomplete to me.

It's also almost 4:00 am here so I suppose there's the slight possibility that I'm really tired.

 

[PlateProp]

Mfw it doesnt surprise me when people want to nerf squirtle's already awful defensive options even more

 

[Deleted member]

Weight is probably one of the MOST important attributes in the game. It affects how your character deals with weight dependent throws, what % they die at, how long they can CC certain things, etc.

Most character attributes are pretty important. I can't think of many things in the attributes tab that you could nerf and "have a very small effect on the game"

let's make everyone run like captain falcon

 

[KakuCP9]

As long as they have Falcon dash grabs/knees to go with Falcon run speed.

 

[FreeGamer]

*imagines a Zelda with Falcon's DD/speed*

this needs to be a thing :^)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Sounds like you might want to get some dual lands actually. (Swapping Forest for Plains imply nerfs to your land ratio ;-; )

M8

I tend to want more basics because I have a very specific number of duals and I don't want to attach enchantments to non-basics lol

I like to tap for giant squirrels from my plains *every* turn, tyvm

I'm going to back up Life here. As incredulous as Pit's design from 3.02 left me [And it left me pretty damn incredulous], Pit was over-nerfed.

He was also the most fun character to watch in the game. Whether it was Armada wrecking Foxes or Zero wrecking everything in PM. I miss the rock solid punishes he could dish out. Where is my Angel of Death?

 

[Thor]

let's make everyone run like captain falcon

I'm imagining Link juggling with uairs.

Then imagining his combo game, taking into account [most of - not of all the nair stuff because Link's nair is nerfed from Melee (<_<)] this stuff is technically possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHowzofr4Es

Excuse me, I need to go figure out if this full-body shaking is due to joy or terror...

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'm imagining ZSS basically being the same and Sonic getting nerfed out the @$$... RIP me. X(

 

[Shokio]

No offense to the guy behind him, but we really need to get a different person (or people) behind Pit. I'm very tired of this character sucking or being just "OK". I want Pit to be good again. Like, GOOD-GOOD.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I demand more disjoint

Swords for the Sword God.

 

[Saproling]

No offense to the guy behind him, but we really need to get a different person (or people) behind Pit. I'm very tired of this character sucking or being just "OK". I want Pit to be good again. Like, GOOD-GOOD.

A lot of characters need this but new members are in so we might see some good things coming in another year...I hope.

 

[AceGamer]

A lot of characters need this but new members are in so we might see some good things coming in another year...I hope.

Well to my knowledge the new members are JFalls, Odds and Boiko so that only shows hope for Bowser lol(ZSS and Ness don't need as much help as him)

 

[Jonyc128]

let's make everyone run like captain falcon

Hmm Mario's moveset is almost Falconesque already, but he also has a projectile and amazing albeit somewhat linear recovery options. Thinking of that actually terrifies me

 

[PlateProp]

Well to my knowledge the new members are JFalls, Odds, Boiko and PlateProp so that only shows hope for Bowser lol(ZSS, Ness and Squirtle don't need as much help as him)

I'm not pmdt lol

 

[_Chrome]

Is anyone else imagining Snake with Falcon's speed? It would be hilarious to imagine how easy the sticky set-ups would be... And don't get me started on Falco. ._______________.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Daftatt is PMDT, right? He probably wont change much unless a new design direction convinces him he needs to buff Squirtle.

 

[nimigoha]

Daftatt is PMDT, right? He probably wont change much unless a new design direction convinces him he needs to buff Squirtle.

If Squirtle's Dsmash was buffed a bit (similar KB curve to Pikachu's but terrible frame data IIRC) I think Squirtle would be very close to complete.

 

[Life]

I should probably be concerned that in friendlies yesterday (couldn't get a room for the tournament but a few of us got together for like eight hours), my two-day-old Wolf with no unusual tech skill besides the universal stuff, waveshining, and occasionally pretty good shortens was getting 95% of the results that my main-since-Demo-2 lab-rat Pit was getting. And my Wolf has so much more obvious room to optimize. Like not SDing more often than a drunken Squirtle secondary, for instance. And figuring out how to sweetspot upB. And not get gimped by Sonic. And low laser waveland. And, and, and, and, and...

I'll clarify by adding that a few months ago I did something similar with Bowser where I played him for a week and broke top 3 at my weekly. The best I've ever gotten on the back of Pit is second, and that's after a lot more tournaments. My Squirtle-and-Charizard days tell a similar story: played my heart out, learned everything about the game I could, still couldn't crack first place (not sure I even got second).

Sure, matchup knowledge could be a factor for both of those, but I don't know the Wolf versus anyone matchups either, and I basically learned Bowser's matchups on the spot (our local Luigi beat me game 1 by a decent margin, lost to me by a sliver game 2, and got fourstocked game 3).

tl;dr buff my mains pl0x

EDIT: also that vvvv why can Lucario hold shield to cancel and other chargable nB characters can't?

 

[Warzenschwein]

Also make the water gun cancel timing less janky so we can finally Aquaravioli reliably.

I'm dead serious.

 

[PlateProp]

If Squirtle's Dsmash was buffed a bit (similar KB curve to Pikachu's but terrible frame data IIRC) I think Squirtle would be very close to complete.

Or we could just give it back it's original KB curve from 3.5 and get off the whole making it simular to pika/rob dsmash because it looks like those train

But yeah, Daft is content to watch the rest of the Squirtle mains burn, he actually believes that 3.6 is the best version of squirtle so far

 

[Soft Serve]

I should probably be concerned that in friendlies yesterday (couldn't get a room for the tournament but a few of us got together for like eight hours), my two-day-old Wolf with no unusual tech skill besides the universal stuff, waveshining, and occasionally pretty good shortens was getting 95% of the results that my main-since-Demo-2 lab-rat Pit was getting. And my Wolf has so much more obvious room to optimize. Like not SDing more often than a drunken Squirtle secondary, for instance. And figuring out how to sweetspot upB. And not get gimped by Sonic. And low laser waveland. And, and, and, and, and...

I'll clarify by adding that a few months ago I did something similar with Bowser where I played him for a week and broke top 3 at my weekly. The best I've ever gotten on the back of Pit is second, and that's after a lot more tournaments. My Squirtle-and-Charizard days tell a similar story: played my heart out, learned everything about the game I could, still couldn't crack first place (not sure I even got second).

Sure, matchup knowledge could be a factor for both of those, but I don't know the Wolf versus anyone matchups either, and I basically learned Bowser's matchups on the spot (our local Luigi beat me game 1 by a decent margin, lost to me by a sliver game 2, and got fourstocked game 3).

tl;dr buff my mains pl0x

EDIT: also that vvvv why can Lucario hold shield to cancel and other chargable nB characters can't?

That's because wolf is really good

And I wish other characters could hold shield to cancel, Id do so many popgun cancels tomahawks if it was as easy as just holding light shield

 

[Life]

That's because wolf is really good

And I wish other characters could hold shield to cancel, Id do so many popgun cancels tomahawks if it was as easy as just holding light shield

But with a dubiously competent pilot with little experience behind him? Fox is also really good, but if you're not near the skill ceiling with him you're gonna have a rough time.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Honestly, I dont care about dsmash. There are more important things than it. It has a use (tech chase option coverage), so I would prefer fixings things like dtilt that are supposed to be good, but once people learn the counterplay will be useless (outside of hitting shields, but they could drop shield and take the hit, sooo...). Tech roll buff/normalization would be great too. More bkb on fair would be nice. Changing windboxes to hitboxes (idk the use though...) at the end of water gun could be cool. Quicker fsmash too.

Obviously I'm not saying all of these. I'm saying I would rather have any of these before dsmash, but that could just be me.

 

[Life]

I feel like buffing Water Gun or Bubble too much would result in campier Squirtle play. If we're gonna talk Squirtle buffs, I'd rather find things that emphasize his maneuverability by rewarding him for going in at the right time (e.g. better kill setups, more knockback on fair, maybe something to improve his combo game like a way to bring people down after he hits them up).

 

[LandoCarlrisien]

Is Roy S tier right now? If not, who is?

 

[Life]

Is Roy S tier right now? If not, who is?

Roy is certainly weaker than Marth IMO. If I had to guess, he's around mid tier. People generally overestimate characters that are popular on the biggest PM stream (I also thought 3.02 Diddy was overrated because a bunch of people played him at Xanadu which made him look more dominant than he actually was), and there was a pretty long period in 3.5 where grand finals at IAB was always Sethlon and Lunchables.

The closest thing to an agreed-upon S-tier character is Fox. If your definition of "s-tier" is just the highest tier on the list, then common picks include Fox, Wolf, ROB, Marth, Sheik, Falco, Diddy Kong, and GnW (I personally don't agree with all of those). If your definition of "s-tier" is "dramatically better than the rest of the cast" (i.e. S-tier characters are more than slightly overpowered) then the only one you can honestly make an argument for is Fox, and even that's a stretch considering the punishes certain characters can get on fastfallers.

You have to respect every character in this game, though, don't lose sight of that.

 

[DMG]

I disrespect PM Ice Climbers because they aren't even a real character

 

[LandoCarlrisien]

I just meant who is the best according to who makes the tier list...

 

[Life]

There is no official tier list.

 

[DMG]

There's no PM backroom with top players deliberating over MU's and tournament viability (which frankly is absurdly variable in PM at larger events)