Tier List Speculation

[Life]

T tasteless gentleman grab two controllers and open up debug mode

it amazes me how many people would rather argue in circles about whether something works on the internet than try to figure it out on their own in five minutes

 

[Player -0]

Hylian How do you DI the footstool CG? I was under the impression you couldn't due to factors I mentioned earlier (non-drift state after footstool, footstool right after release of grab, can't SDI because no hitlag/"hits")

Hylian

 

[tasteless gentleman]

The fact that you are bowser doesn't influence why mashing works. In pm, you can easily and consistently mash put of a grab before the first pummel, provided you are willing to do it. With the footstool regrab you have time to mash put simply because pop has to wait for Nana to land first which takes the span of about one pummel which is more than enough time to mash out. DI, no, I've not tested that but as far as the basic press buttons till they let go side of the regrab, you can accomplish that part pretty easily with any character.

So seeing how i already agreed with you on the part where i could probably mash out before the first pummel, why did you feel the need to re-explain/argue that i could mash out? I already agreed with you... or was that to distract me from the part where you have not tested the DI with bowser with the footstool "infinite"?

T tasteless gentleman grab two controllers and open up debug mode

it amazes me how many people would rather argue in circles about whether something works on the internet than try to figure it out on their own in five minutes

Sure let me try an obscure and hard move i never tried before that someone took a whole summer to perfect while trying to DI with the other character with another controller....

Do you see how this would be hard to test? I dont know desynching, nor do i know how to do the footstool regrab. I dont think debug mode would help in this case, but thank you for the input.

 

[Nausicaa]

The difference is naus goes in circles and rambles about tangents that don't make sense to most people, rather than actually making a point then supporting it, which is what wobbles does, even if he's a bit long winded about doing so.

One is long-winded about supporting a point they're making.
The other barely goes into a point before moving to the next.

^The key word in your post is "Most"
Good word you used there. I'm surrounded by people who know a certain something is in their pocket that we can take out and look at, and it's not a very common thing in 'most' to have this certain peculiar thing.
Smash language is a very different thing, and 'most' people here have it, I can't seem to find where to separate the 2 yet.

Seriously though, in the last 6 or so years, there have been 2 smashers who have mentioned Wobbles being essentially a bridge between what I say and what they're able to understand.
TheGravyTrain I'll check out that article. Maybe I'll learn how to bridge that gap someday too. So thanks.

Also, I'm playing Melee again.
Got someone to draw a card, had Falco, ICs, Puff, Pika, Samus, Peach, Marth, Sheik, Mario, Doc, CF, Luigi, and Fox drawn on a bunch.
They drew Pika, so I'm now a Pika main in Melee.
Which is cool, I'm a fan.

BUT DAYUM

He's soooo much better in PM.
B-Air has a completely different niche, and it's not nearly as good IN that niche, no RAR, terrible Grab reach, bad disjoints on various things, U-Air does NO damage, no QAC, can't dash backwards out of D-Tilts, pivot D-Tilts/U-Tilts are nearly impossible, no Crawling, no Wall-Jumps, no Wave-Bounce Thunders or Jolts, everything is just 'fatty-syndrome' like he'd been snacking too much.
Re-enforces my content with QAC on the 2nd part of Up-B being gone. That was silly. This character is silly.

 

[_Chrome]

I hope I don't upset anyone, but I feel like we should move on from the whole "Bowser can DI out of throws" + "No he can't" / "Bowser is the problem" + "Everyone else is the problem" debate. It's stretched on for quite some time now and it's gotten nearly no where.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I hope I don't upset anyone, but I feel like we should move on from the whole "Bowser can DI out of throws" + "No he can't" / "Bowser is the problem" + "Everyone else is the problem" debate. It's stretched on for quite some time now and it's gotten nearly no where.

Ill ask fumbles directly about the DI'ing of the footstool, ill post it, and we can be done about that topic.
Agreed everyone?
I can't think of anyone better to ask and ill even go out of my way to bug him.

But I do agree that we cant seem to agree no matter what is said so i feel like we can branch from this unless its relevent in a discussion (like whether there is an infinite or not)

 

[Life]

T tasteless gentleman I was thinking in frame advance, which makes these things significantly more possible.

I appreciate that you are being courteous about my somewhat condescending tone here.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

T tasteless gentleman I was thinking in frame advance, which makes these things significantly more possible.

I appreciate that you are being courteous about my somewhat condescending tone here.

I mean i do understand what you were saying but this is not something simple unless you main the character, frame by frame probably would not help me (or anyone who doesnt know the IC that well tech wise). But i did track down fumbles and ask him so hopefully ill have an answer by the end of the day.

 

[nimigoha]

It's downthrow>jump>footstool. Easy to play around with the timings of the jump and the footstool.

 

[redbeanjelly]

I hope I don't upset anyone, but I feel like we should move on from the whole "Bowser can DI out of throws" + "No he can't" / "Bowser is the problem" + "Everyone else is the problem" debate. It's stretched on for quite some time now and it's gotten nearly no where.

I agree, let's move on. Next item on the agenda: when is Pit getting that 4-frame jumpsquat???

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I agree, let's move on. Next item on the agenda: when is Pit getting that 4-frame jumpsquat???

I agree he can use that but is it whats really holding him back? I feel like after 3.5 came out hes never really been the same.

Is his down tilt still slower than the down smash?

It's downthrow>jump>footstool. Easy to play around with the timings of the jump and the footstool.

Its the desynch problem im having, either way still hard to play around with atm with no second person even if i could desynch or whatever is actually needed (i have no idea)

 

[KinGly]

Why? Not being mean, just curious. Outside of battlefield layout stages, snake doesn't seem rage inducing unless your a slow character.

So I'm late but I believe that he was making a joke about snakes new moveable box taunt.

Yeah it was important that was answered

 

[_Chrome]

I believe his dtilt his slower than his dsmash, but what is his current jumpsquat? Is it 5 frames? Because it looks pretty slow iirc.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I believe his dtilt his slower than his dsmash, but what is his current jumpsquat? Is it 5 frames? Because it looks pretty slow iirc.

Why is a tilt ever slower than a smash (even ganons got fixed) anyway?

I think its 5, but it could be slower, i just know its slow enough to make air punishes difficult (not to mention his wall of pain is already hard enough to pull off)

EDIT

After checking the frame data thread, i cant find his jump squat.

 

[Boiko]

Pit's jump squat is five frames.

 

[eideeiit]

I tried making a post about Pit. Then i realized i know nothing really worth reading. Then i thought it could still do something?

Spoiler

Also I've played around with him sometimes, I suck tho so salt n shiz

Can't kill for ****.
Seriously, anyone lived to like 170% most of the time it felt like. In a lot of MUs good edgeguarding can probably fix this to some extent but idk. His best kill tools are probs up-b which imo has a little too little kb as it can't really be comboed into that easily and bair, which is really good with all those active frames but still as his best killer kinda meh. This may be due to my my badness tho. Upair?

Recovery craycray. Undeveloped counterplay may exist, but it felt like every time i got edgeguarded i did something massively idiotic.

Neutral is good. Spacie-esque spaced aerial approaches always feel good, even tho they probably aren't that smart. His DD is great, too bad he has no fast really threatening options out of it. Grab in some MUs yeh, but I never could shake the feeling of there being a DI that could get most guys out with very little %.

Upsmash is really good when it works. Upair is godlike. I love arrows even if I'm not that good with them.

I probably used dtilt way wrong in a marthlike way, but it always felt kinda bad.

Pit is really good and some teeeeeeny weeny changes could really make him into something great. He kinda feels like a Ryu of smash with that massive all-around toolkit. Probably not really tho.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian

Hold down and away, unless the footstool is frame one they have to make nana dash to get it and can't regrab. You can also SDI the nair required to rubber band nana back down to grab depending on your character and get out of the grab.-

 

[Swigo]

Why is Pikachu not considered top tier? Pika has a good dash dance, a good combo starter(uair) a good gimp game with a quick spike(uair again) a way to set up edgeguard situations(bair) a good vertical finisher(usmash) an alright projectile and one of the best recoveries in the game. I'm assuming there's something I'm missing because Pikachu seems ridiculously good to me but nobody other than Nausicca seems to feel that way.

Secondary question, why is Kirby awful? Does Kirby have anything going for him, like he's got decent edguards and he can duck under a lot of attacks but other than that it feels like his recovery is meh he has no way to get in and even when he does it's not like Kirby's bout to drop some sick combos. Maybe I'm missing something here too, but I feel like Kirby is a terrible character who soft counters a couple of decent ones

 

[Life]

A lot of characters are basically not top tier by virtue of having fewer mains to push their characters than others (which is why my nebulous incomplete no-I'm-not-sharing internal tier list has Ness really low despite Stereo and others putting in a ton of work compared to others).

If Axe played PM more and Anther got more exposure, I think people would have a higher opinion of Pikachu.

I could go on about Pit. I had a list of QOL improvements I had in mind for him but I've forgotten it now. 4-frame jumpsquat, as well as fixing his airdodge animation to make wavelanding smoother, and of course fixing his multihits, would go a long way to making him feel better while affecting balance only minimally.

Pit's biggest flaw AFAICT is that he's a dagger character with the frame data of a sword character. He can compensate because of a few really good qualities (dashdance, dthrow, uair are all solid, arrows are nice to have, fairly decent combo weight for most matchups), but generally speaking, sword characters have poor frame data so that they're prevented from just walling out characters with less reach and disjoint. Pit can't really wall out anyone unless they're above him. He gets outranged surprisingly easily from all other angles.

Also gotta know your kill setups. Last tournament I lost a set to a Falcon because I (being a pretty mediocre player) wasn't nearly aggressive enough with my edgeguarding, and I let him live to like 220 on one stock in particular. Also, I like to use throws other than dthrow to try to throw off their DI so I can get better followups. If you can trick them into DI'ing in on your down throw, that's a free upB kill around 100. A particularly good example is fthrowing them offstage, which kills outright at non-terrible percents if they DI correctly for dthrow, but doesn't kill on the same DI that'll let you kill them off dthrow.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I feel like pit's down throw has been gutted, Like the opponent has to literally DI into you to get messed up by a combo.

I played anther, He was awesome but he only beat me by 1 stock every game. (Maybe he was toying with me) But he also didn't do certain weird pikachu things like tech chase the up throw (i think) into another throw (its a weird degenerate chain grab where your in hit stun until you land on the ground but are stuck in landing animation so you get grabbed again).

I'm sure if he did that though (or maybe it was ironed out) i would have a much different opinion.

A lot of characters are basically not top tier by virtue of having fewer mains to push their characters than others (which is why my nebulous incomplete no-I'm-not-sharing internal tier list has Ness really low despite Stereo and others putting in a ton of work compared to others).

If Axe played PM more and Anther got more exposure, I think people would have a higher opinion of Pikachu.

I could go on about Pit. I had a list of QOL improvements I had in mind for him but I've forgotten it now. 4-frame jumpsquat, as well as fixing his airdodge animation to make wavelanding smoother, and of course fixing his multihits, would go a long way to making him feel better while affecting balance only minimally.

Pit's biggest flaw AFAICT is that he's a dagger character with the frame data of a sword character. He can compensate because of a few really good qualities (dashdance, dthrow, uair are all solid, arrows are nice to have, fairly decent combo weight for most matchups), but generally speaking, sword characters have poor frame data so that they're prevented from just walling out characters with less reach and disjoint. Pit can't really wall out anyone unless they're above him. He gets outranged surprisingly easily from all other angles.

Also gotta know your kill setups. Last tournament I lost a set to a Falcon because I (being a pretty mediocre player) wasn't nearly aggressive enough with my edgeguarding, and I let him live to like 220 on one stock in particular. Also, I like to use throws other than dthrow to try to throw off their DI so I can get better followups. If you can trick them into DI'ing in on your down throw, that's a free upB kill around 100. A particularly good example is fthrowing them offstage, which kills outright at non-terrible percents if they DI correctly for dthrow, but doesn't kill on the same DI that'll let you kill them off dthrow.

I feel like pit was so gutted that no one wants to give him a chance anymore. He just has really odd angles and slow frame data on important attack and his up B was gutted.

 

[_Chrome]

On the subject of jump squats (mostly for tasteless gentleman's benefit) it's always between 3-5 frames. Characters like MK and Fox have 3 frame jump squats and characters like Link and Pit have 5 frame jump squats.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

On the subject of jump squats (mostly for tasteless gentleman's benefit) it's always between 3-5 frames. Characters like MK and Fox have 3 frame jump squats and characters like Link and Pit have 5 frame jump squats.

i thought bowser had 6 or maybe that was normalized?

Oh and i do appreciate the clarification. I don't ask questions or question people to seem like a jerk or to be ignorant.

Quite the opposite, i just find people explain themselves better to where i can understand things more easily if they are questioned in that manner

 

[_Chrome]

Why is Pikachu not considered top tier? Pika has a good dash dance, a good combo starter(uair) a good gimp game with a quick spike(uair again) a way to set up edgeguard situations(bair) a good vertical finisher(usmash) an alright projectile and one of the best recoveries in the game. I'm assuming there's something I'm missing because Pikachu seems ridiculously good to me but nobody other than Nausicca seems to feel that way.

Secondary question, why is Kirby awful? Does Kirby have anything going for him, like he's got decent edguards and he can duck under a lot of attacks but other than that it feels like his recovery is meh he has no way to get in and even when he does it's not like Kirby's bout to drop some sick combos. Maybe I'm missing something here too, but I feel like Kirby is a terrible character who soft counters a couple of decent ones

About Kirby: you're right. He is a terrible character who soft counters a few decent ones. That's why he sucks right now.

Some things I think he needs to be better are a faster dash speed, maybe more air speed, a forward aerial based off of Smash 64 as well as his down tilt. Maybe if he were overall faster they could rework his dash attack. Those could be a few decent starting points though, by making him more like the only strong iteration of him ever.

Edit: Tasteless Gentleman, I know you're just trying to contribute and learn now. I wasn't sure about before though when you were arguing about Toon Link.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Pit's dtilt is slower than his ftilt because it's otherwise a better move (IIRC). If it came out super quickly it'd be stupid good for CC wars, and maybe that's why it's slower. IDK though.

I, and I'm sure most other people, think that Pikachu is for sure a top twenty character and very likely top 15. However, I, like many other people I'm sure, don't have much experience fighting against him at all, so it's difficult to place him because of that. He has good matchups against the space animals, does alright against Marth, and... I feel, and I cannot stress that enough, that he'd be decent against Diddy, okay against MK, decent against M2, Ike, Falcon, ZSS, and decent at least against a bunch of other really good characters (Sheik would still suck but it wouldn't be that bad at all I don't think). But like I said, I don't really know much about the character. If it's any solace, Pikachu has many similarities with Sonic, and Sonic has a relatively flat matchup spread in general. I'm totally ready for this comment to be torn apart.

 

[Kipcom]

On the subject of jump squats (mostly for tasteless gentleman's benefit) it's always between 3-5 frames. Characters like MK and Fox have 3 frame jump squats and characters like Link and Pit have 5 frame jump squats.

I still don't understand why a fast, normal sized character like Pit has an awkward, 5 frame jump squat animation.

Most character with 5 or more frames on jumpsquat are either slow, big, heavy, or all three. Pit is none of that which makes it weird.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Pit's dtilt is slower than his ftilt because it's otherwise a better move (IIRC). If it came out super quickly it'd be stupid good for CC wars, and maybe that's why it's slower. IDK though.

I, and I'm sure most other people, think that Pikachu is for sure a top twenty character and very likely top 15. However, I, like many other people I'm sure, don't have much experience fighting against him at all, so it's difficult to place him because of that. He has good matchups against the space animals, does alright against Marth, and... I feel, and I cannot stress that enough, that he'd be decent against Diddy, okay against MK, decent against M2, Ike, Falcon, ZSS, and decent at least against a bunch of other really good characters (Sheik would still suck but it wouldn't be that bad at all I don't think). But like I said, I don't really know much about the character. If it's any solace, Pikachu has many similarities with Sonic, and Sonic has a relatively flat matchup spread in general. I'm totally ready for this comment to be torn apart.

Down smash, Pit's down smash is faster than his Down Tilt which is what doesn't make sense.
I feel like pikachu's recovery is either snap on ledge (risk being edge guarded) or recover way high and slowly (risk being reset into an edgeguard)

 

[eideeiit]

Down smash, Pit's down smash is faster than his Down Tilt which is what doesn't make sense.
I feel like pikachu's recovery is either snap on ledge (risk being edge guarded) or recover way high and slowly (risk being reset into an edgeguard)

The reward of dtilt is greater than dsmash so it kind of makes sense. Dsmash's function is something like panic get-off-me or a really high % kill on floaties. Dtilt's is combos on p much everyone (at least with the meteor).

 

[Life]

Pit dsmash is for techchasing in matchups where he can cover neutral tech and tech roll with it. It's also yet another launcher in a kit built around launching.

Pit's down throw combos into dash attack in most situations that don't involve the opponent DI'ing in (which is vulnerable to stuff like usmash, aerials, upB depending). It's frame tight a lot of the time, and certain heavies can land or nair before Pit can reach them because it's a weight dependent animation.

 

[Kipcom]

Down smash, Pit's down smash is faster than his Down Tilt which is what doesn't make sense.

This really isn't that uncommon. You have characters like Mario, Roy, Peach, and a few others who have faster down smashes than their down tilt.

I don't really think Pit's dtilt is an issue. If anything, I think his dtilt sets a good example of a move that should be used vs a bad approach option, and not just something you can throw out every time you get hit because you know that it will either link into easy damage or outright kill at certain percents. Roy's dtilt hitbox comes out on frame 8, while Pit's comes out on 9. Sure, that's a one frame difference. I'm okay with that. Then you look at GnW's dtilt, which is active on frame 6, has a huge, misleading hitbox, and is also active for a whopping 7 frames. But I'm not here to start another debate about that character.

Pit's dtilt in 3.0 was incredibly fast. I think the hitbox started on anywhere from frame 6 to 8, but I can't remember. Dtilt also has more hitstun than Down Smash, and you act out of it faster than down smash. I don't think that the PMDT wants to go back to Pit having a dtilt that not only led to potentially safe strings on shield, but also so that crouch cancelling in general is less of an abused option for Pit.

Dtilt hasn't been much of an issue for me ever since they buffed it in 3.6b. My actual problems from Pit stem from the fact that his multi hit moves are awful. Up-Smash and nair are unreliable more often than they should be. I also have an issue with his glide being as slow as it is. If you're gonna make getting even tapped out of glide with the weakest of moves/projectiles basically mean death for Pit offstage, at least add some of the initial velocity that was taken away bac so that I can use it for good mid range approach options like it was supposed to be used for.

 

[robosteven]

Aside from the multi-hit issue, Pit's in a really good place right now. Solid recovery options, lots of kill moves (I have no idea what you guys are talking about saying you can't kill with Pit), juggles for DAYS, and an amazing projectile.

He's close to perfect imo.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Down smash, Pit's down smash is faster than his Down Tilt which is what doesn't make sense.
I feel like pikachu's recovery is either snap on ledge (risk being edge guarded) or recover way high and slowly (risk being reset into an edgeguard)

By ftilt I meant dsmash, my bad. I meant what eideeiit said.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Pits dtilt does not need to be quicker. Dont think of it like Marth's (or even Roy's), think of it like Links or Peach's (who also has a quicker dsmash than dtilt). Meteor dtilts should not be frame 7 (or whatever it was in 3.0). Around frame 10 is fine.

 

[Player -0]

I still want D-Smash reverted to be not dumb. 3.6 nerfed it so hard. Like the buffs he got might not have been worth the trade imo.

Current D-Smash is option coverage? Old one by ledge covers all options with pretty much best option possible. They tech in place/miss tech/tech roll? Forward hit launches them into the depths of "semispike" hell. They tech in? Lol 2nd hit pops up for free juggles.

Horizontal KB on both hits pls. Current D-Smash doesn't pop people up in CC wars, doesn't kill, option coverage is okay but you really have to work for followups after that, if they're low-medium percents forget it.


Also I still have no clue if people abuse how easy to recover/escape juggles with Down B.

Speaking of which I need to check Pit's arm's hitbox for Dair for optimization on followups. Also Nair is as easy to SDI out of as Ness' Fair. Get shined out of Up Smash during the 2nd hit after catching Fox coming from above. Don't know if people B-Reverse Up-B off of offstage juggles into kill. Need to watch people in 3.6 but can't find anything or they're baaddd.

Ramble.

Hylian The way I do the footstool CG is press x to jump -> press down during/finishing jumpsquat to get down throw -> y to footstool -> regrab (with Z. Nana Nairs on the way down often due to this . Speaking of which you can probably Fair on the way down to cover mash outs) -> repeat.

During this there's minimal time to DI (lots of time to mash so <50 if they're mashing "lightly" <75 if they can actually mash). Nana auto rubberbands back to me during this automatically. So if the opponent is mashing this is more of a mixup to set up for a different set up (lol) or ~120% you can kill off of it.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Oh, and dthrow dash, while working on characters like Ike at low percents (what I tested), is a bad idea since you can only get weak dash attack, making it - on hit. You have to consider when you wont get punished as well. Aside from down throw cg's on light floaties, dthrow is a pretty bad throw imo. Sure it tech chases some characters, but that's about it. Up throw sucks at low percents on anyone that isn't forced to tech and f/b throw have abysmal kb at low percents. Basically, pit v someone at low percents is rough unless they fall fast...

 

[FreeGamer]

Secondary question, why is Kirby awful? Does Kirby have anything going for him, like he's got decent edguards and he can duck under a lot of attacks but other than that it feels like his recovery is meh he has no way to get in and even when he does it's not like Kirby's bout to drop some sick combos. Maybe I'm missing something here too, but I feel like Kirby is a terrible character who soft counters a couple of decent ones

You pretty much answered your own question. His speed (or lack thereof) is the biggest problem. He has all these great normals and specials, excellent edgeguarding, a really good burst option, crouch gimmicks, a solid tech chase throw, and yet things just don't add up.

 

[Chevy]

Bowser has a 6 frame jumpsquat, used to be 8.

 

[nimigoha]

I just don't understand why Pit's throws are so bad. Fthrow and Bthrow would be fine as positional throws but even at like 100% if they DI up they barely go anywhere. They need more KBG. Uthrow is super weird and I feel like it never leads into anything.

Like if he was a character that could zip around the stage and get grabs relatively easily, it would make a little bit of sense to have sub par throws.

Too bad that's not even the case and we have things like Falcon's U/Dthrow > Knee on one of the fastest runners in the game.

If Pit had a DI mixup on his throws then I think things could really change for him. Make Uthrow send behind him (sorta like Roy) so if they DI forward they get caught right above you, and if they DI behind you they can get Dthrown into a followup. Neat little 50/50.

 

[Nausicaa]

First time trying the new 'multi-quote' function so had to go all-out!
LOL
Pit stuff.

Spoiler

I tried making a post about Pit. Then i realized i know nothing really worth reading. Then i thought it could still do something?

I think you got some pretty good stuff here, wasn't as off as you're saying.
He's for sure very Ryu-ish.

Here's your answer to the D-Tilt thing. You're right, NOT Marth-like.

Pits dtilt does not need to be quicker. Dont think of it like Marth's (or even Roy's), think of it like Links or Peach's (who also has a quicker dsmash than dtilt). Meteor dtilts should not be frame 7 (or whatever it was in 3.0). Around frame 10 is fine.

N-Air was his only actual 'nerf' going into the 3.02 patch, oddly.
It used to work a lot more like Zelda's, in that it had hard hit-boxes with decent KB and lead into things (because Pit is faster than Zelda lul) as well as being a GTFO move (dat coverage and difficult to DI it where you want to).

I'd love THAT N-Air back. Otherwise, this.

Aside from the multi-hit issue, Pit's in a really good place right now. Solid recovery options, lots of kill moves (I have no idea what you guys are talking about saying you can't kill with Pit), juggles for DAYS, and an amazing projectile.

He's close to perfect imo.

Pit can basically deal with anything to some degree, has to do it in really unique and varying ways (game to game stock to stock changing that is), and is fairly functional.
Whatever is DISfunctional on him, is all that needs addressing.
Which is really the 2 things.
1) Multi-hits of a few moves.
2) His gliding is just not quite working.
It's OKAY I GUESS, but it could be SO cool as a slightly more solid move.
It's cool, would be nice if it could get more 'core' attention playing as/against Pit.

Here Kipcom addresses it basically...

I don't really think Pit's dtilt is an issue. If anything, I think his dtilt sets a good example of a move that should be used vs a bad approach option, and not just something you can throw out every time you get hit because you know that it will either link into easy damage or outright kill at certain percents. I'm okay with that.

My actual problems from Pit stem from the fact that his multi hit moves are awful. Up-Smash and nair are unreliable more often than they should be. I also have an issue with his glide being as slow as it is. If you're gonna make getting even tapped out of glide with the weakest of moves/projectiles basically mean death for Pit offstage, at least add some of the initial velocity that was taken away bac so that I can use it for good mid range approach options like it was supposed to be used for.

+Agreed on the D-Tilt. Well put there.
Things that work easily shouldn't be shoved into every character. We have that in characters like Mario and Sheik and Roy where everything leads into everything else. Let some character-diversity happen. D-Tilt is in a cool place.

Pit's biggest flaw AFAICT is that he's a dagger character with the frame data of a sword character. He can compensate because of a few really good qualities (dashdance, dthrow, uair are all solid, arrows are nice to have, fairly decent combo weight for most matchups), but generally speaking, sword characters have poor frame data so that they're prevented from just walling out characters with less reach and disjoint. Pit can't really wall out anyone unless they're above him. He gets outranged surprisingly easily from all other angles.

Put that well there. Essentially, the 'flavor' of Pit is like trying to play a fast paced aggressive Puff/Wario/Falco/Sheik or something. Lots of good quick hits but range and mobility to aid for it. No centerpiece of his game is necessarily touch-of-deaths or walling or counter-approach or neutral-breaking, but all of those things COULD HAPPEN and DO HAPPEN according to what happens to happen during the given stock, and it'll be DIFFERENT every stock. Because Smash is abstract, and Pit being fairly un-centralized allows this abstract 'not sure how the next stock is going to go' to come through.
Hope that made sense lol.

2nd note, only thing I don't like about your post Life, and whoever else mentioned it, is the jump-squat thing.
I think it's flavorful in the sense that it's nice to have SOME character be a mix of basically ANY of the traits in the game. "Just because it's 'usually' for heavy-weights" should be an indicator that a character (a mid/light like Pit) would be really cool to have that trait for interestingness-sake. And he could be altered in other ways to compensate if he's not strong enough otherwise.

I still don't understand why a fast, normal sized character like Pit has an awkward, 5 frame jump squat animation.

Most character with 5 or more frames on jumpsquat are either slow, big, heavy, or all three. Pit is none of that which makes it weird.

See above for why I like it.
Weird is awesome. This is Smash, I want INSANE diversity because it's only proper.

Pika stuff.

Spoiler

I, and I'm sure most other people, think that Pikachu is for sure a top twenty character and very likely top 15. However, I, like many other people I'm sure, don't have much experience fighting against him at all, so it's difficult to place him because of that. He has good matchups against the space animals, does alright against Marth, and... I feel, and I cannot stress that enough, that he'd be decent against Diddy, okay against MK, decent against M2, Ike, Falcon, ZSS, and decent at least against a bunch of other really good characters (Sheik would still suck but it wouldn't be that bad at all I don't think). But like I said, I don't really know much about the character. If it's any solace, Pikachu has many similarities with Sonic, and Sonic has a relatively flat matchup spread in general. I'm totally ready for this comment to be torn apart.

Of all the characters you mentioned, I'd be more afraid of Sonic than any of them while playing Pika.
lol
Stupid character makes you play stupid against it and it's stupid. Not so much for a lot of characters, but it really messes with Pika-stuff.

I feel like pikachu's recovery is either snap on ledge (risk being edge guarded) or recover way high and slowly (risk being reset into an edgeguard)

Good thing his free-as-f lagless QAC2 stuff is gone. lul

For really though, when it comes to recovering from defensive positions (like straight-up RECOVERING), it for sure appears that people seem to think it's better than it really is for that. Agreed, if that's what you meant.
Still, it IS a very good recovery. He has so many angles and options with that snap-to-ledge timing/direction/etc alone that his recovery for that purpose is almost as good as it ever gets in Smash. Add in that at closer ranges he can mix that with landing on stage/plats, and there are certain heights and angles that leave him almost lagless, and it's pretty solid.

On the other end, what's ACTUALLY important to note about his recovery, is the aggressive and threatening nature of it. Not so much offensively, but the immediateness that is required to deal with it.

1) It's hard to 'set-up' edge-guards on him outside of hitting him far away in burst. A fast 'swat' can do this, but it's such a fast and effective recovery that leading that into an edge-guard isn't going to happen unless it's a HARD swat, unlike against most slower-less-diverse recoveries of most characters.
ex: A Puff B-Air or Sheik F-Air can lead to something 'good' almost guaranteed on lots of characters, on Pika, it's more about the race to intercept whatever comes NEXT ('recovering' from the hit) and especially regarding the edge-game where these kinds of things SHOULD be a stock for the Puff/Sheik. That's where his recovering-strength REALLY is.

2) When it comes to general edge-play... As in, not full-on edge-guarding situations but more about the battles that are leading to the edge-guards, INCLUDING the off-stage stuff, and what DECIDES an advantage by the edge, Pika is pretty much the S tier itself. Was even more-so in earlier PM versions. Bowser/Marth/Kirby/Puff/Snake/ROB/Sheik/Lucas/M2/Diddy/MK/Yoshi/Fox/etc don't have crap on Pika when it comes to making a hit from anywhere on the stage lead to an edge-game scenario. U-Air is OP, the rest is silly.
The only one who might match it is D3, but that's just because it's ALL the Ooze is for. lul
Hope all that makes sense too.

Kirby stuff.

Spoiler

Why is Pikachu not considered top tier? Pika has a good dash dance, a good combo starter(uair) a good gimp game with a quick spike(uair again) a way to set up edgeguard situations(bair) a good vertical finisher(usmash) an alright projectile and one of the best recoveries in the game. I'm assuming there's something I'm missing because Pikachu seems ridiculously good to me but nobody other than Nausicca seems to feel that way.

Secondary question, why is Kirby awful? Does Kirby have anything going for him, like he's got decent edguards and he can duck under a lot of attacks but other than that it feels like his recovery is meh he has no way to get in and even when he does it's not like Kirby's bout to drop some sick combos. Maybe I'm missing something here too, but I feel like Kirby is a terrible character who soft counters a couple of decent ones

I'm definitely not the only one about Pika. I've just been very vocal about it since like... PM 2.1. I don't get it either though, still...

I think Kirby gets too much of a bad taste in mouths to get a proper look. There's a bizarre stigma or something about characters that can't recover (not as big of a deal as OTHER parts of the edge-game as mentioned above about Pika stuff), characters that can't drop sick touch-of-deaths of any conversion, characters that can't break neutral or 'get in' whenever they feel like it, or whatever.

If Kirby has a couple good match-ups, obviously he's good at SOMETHING other than gimping or ducking grabs or whatever people talk about.

By the logic that everyone spits at Kirby being bad, Samus SHOULD be bad too. There is MORE to this game than sword-dashing. Not everyone needs a banana-dash to be as good as the spacies. Samus has the stuff. Kirby has SOME of the stuff. Figure out what that is. Kirby 'mains' who say he's in 'trouble' included in this.

Why does he do okay against who he does okay against?
Like how the heck does he beat Falco? Ike? Whoever?

Somebody (more than 1 person I would expect) explain why Kirby does well against who he does well against, and we can begin discuss Kirby in a meaningful manner for the first time in this thread.

If that is understood, maybe we can figure out if Kirby miiiiiiiight be able to play to that enough to beat others. Or what the heck is ACTUALLY holding him back, and if it's ACTUALLY 'duh... dash speed solves everything' like the last 2+ years of people looking to get more Dash Speed on characters like Ness and G&W (both went through serious 'buff dash speed plz' eras too)

Hint: At no point will Kirby, in match-ups he isn't a counter for, will he be trapping or cornering Fox with aerials and then catching him with an APPROACH in the middle of F-Airs that lead to a Grab and then dropping a sick fully-in-hitstun combo off tech-chase reads. This is not old patches with busted D-Throws and terribly non-interactive counter-approach Inhales.

Start by thinking more like... Dash into D-Tilt > full-jump F-Air > WD U-Tilt and dash back to neutral type of game. Can THIS be the starting point in how Kirby can clip Fox enough to get some kind of knock-down into edge-guard?

DON'T start with the idea that Dash-Attack, B-Air Walls, or Grab/Aerial mix-ups should be what you're aiming for to break neutral against a campy-aggressive TL/Fox/Wario. Those traits, contrary to popular belief it seems, have NOTHING to do with Kirby's game.
Samus has a good Dash-Attack, can mix it up with Grab. What do you see her do? Pivot/WD F-Tilts.
What's Kirby's version of that? The rest will come into play AFTER THIS IS ESTABLISHED. NOT before.
It's NOT DD Grabbing into U-Air > Knees.
You're playing smart-footsies-for-life if you pick this character.

Don't listen to me though, I'm a hater when it comes to neutering interesting DIVERSITY and the last thing I want is to lose a quirky character when they CAN work with their quirks.

About Kirby: you're right. He is a terrible character who soft counters a few decent ones. That's why he sucks right now.

Some things I think he needs to be better are a faster dash speed, maybe more air speed, a forward aerial based off of Smash 64 as well as his down tilt. Maybe if he were overall faster they could rework his dash attack. Those could be a few decent starting points though, by making him more like the only strong iteration of him ever.

SHUDAHP KIRBYHATUR5000

Agreed on maaaaybe more air speed. I'd prefer more aerial control in the sense that his 64 F-Air type of aerial wall incorporated into his kit somehow, without removing what's already there, would be great. Air-Speed can kind of answer that in a way, but I'd rather not alter that in a way that makes something like F-Air/N-Air/U-Air/B-Air chains even better than they are now.

Though a trait like a 64 F-Air wall-esque move is a niche that I think would allow Kirby match-ups to be a lot more interesting from both sides. Kirby can SERIOUSLY threaten space in front of him, and use that to encroach on the opponent, which means they SERIOUSLY need a way to engage Kirby.
This would obviously be only one of his many tools, but it's an 'addition' to a kit that allows him to creep into other arche-types without encompassing anything but what he is at the moment.

More inter-activeness from what's on-paper a very non-interactive move.
Weird, but that's what's up.
Screw Dash Speed. He's already got a fast enough run for a pink ball. It's not very Kirby-like anyway.

That's maybe just me though...

ANYWAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYZZZZZZZZZ

You pretty much answered your own question. His speed (or lack thereof) is the biggest problem. He has all these great normals and specials, excellent edgeguarding, a really good burst option, crouch gimmicks, a solid tech chase throw, and yet things just don't add up.

KIRBY IS BAD

IT DOESN'T ADD UP

YOU ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION

WHAT'S GOING ON!>!?>!>!?!?!???@?@???GFS

lol
Half jkz half not.

I'm seriously wondering though. Could you explain why Kirby does well against certain characters?
Like... why does he do so well against Falco, or Ike, or whoever people think he does well against.
And... why does NONE of the stuff that helps him in any of those match-ups, help him in any others?

 

[FreeGamer]

I'm seriously wondering though. Could you explain why Kirby does well against certain characters?
Like... why does he do so well against Falco, or Ike, or whoever people think he does well against.
And... why does NONE of the stuff that helps him in any of those match-ups, help him in any others?

It depends on a mix of how well Kirby can punish/edgeguard the other person and how much of the other person's kit he can disrupt by crouching.

EDIT: His F-Air doesn't need any changes, and even if you want to focus him around footsies you would need to bump up his speed because he isn't great at that gameplan either. Or would you rather have a bunch of braindead safe/spammable moves attached to a slow puffball, where his good MUs become 70:30 and his bad MUs are still bad?

 

[Life]

Nausicaa it personally doesn't make much sense to me to have Pit have a five-frame jumpsquat for flavor reasons. He's got wings, it's weird for him to have trouble getting off the ground. Plus if he had a four-frame jumpsquat, I see no reason to move him to five, right?

We already have the pseudo-fast Falco for light and reasonably mobile character with a five-frame jumpsquat anyway.

(Seriously, I dunno how top Falco players make him look so fast. I feel like I'm in molasses by comparison when I play him, and I used to actually practice Falco things back in the day. I'm assuming there's some action economy stuff going on under the surface that I can't quite grasp.)