Tier List Speculation

[Hylian]

Thats all he does with IC or he loses basically. Maybe thats why im biased because the footstool infinite trashes big characters. but i have seen him use the footstool on alot of other smaller characters.

Also i never saw the B throw infinite, but i have seen lots of the other infinites. I for sure learned something from this talk, still though infinites that dont allow you to DI or try anything is BS. Its just some lame melee wobble all over again.

So from what i gathered from this, fumbles is the only one who does infinites so no one knows how cheap they are or how stupid the footstool infinite looks/works?

IC's trash big characters regardless of infinites. There are also no other infinites. You just don't know anything about the character. He probably wasn't even infiniting you, you just don't know how to DI correctly or something. You can DI the footstool infinite btw which is why it doesn't work on most characters.

Also saying fumbles only uses infinites to win is hilarious and salt induced. He's good without them. PM Ic's have nothing even remotely similar to wobbling.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

IC's trash big characters regardless of infinites. There are also no other infinites. You just don't know anything about the character. He probably wasn't even infiniting you, you just don't know how to DI correctly or something. You can DI the footstool infinite btw which is why it doesn't work on most characters.

Also saying fumbles only uses infinites to win is hilarious and salt induced. He's good without them. PM Ic's have nothing even remotely similar to wobbling.

What else do you want me to say? I said i learned from this debate and i appreciated the knowledge you explained.
I am pretty sure i was DI'ing in directions, i have played fumbles and beaten him in games but alot of his kills came from infinites (the footstool one in mid stage and the other one on the ledge). It sucks but i dont think its salt induced on his part nor really mine. I dont think infinites should exist, whether i understand them or not. Its not like im sitting with my controller idle while he does whatever he does. But hey what do i know about weird combos working just because a character is big. Who do you main again? Is it some weird small fast characer with projectiles? Just a question.

Also, As for the salty answer back, you really should not let your emotions write your salty messages for you. I was respectful to you (ignorant maybe, but at least reasonably respectful and didnt throw the salt word around). Blood pressure is a very common health problem with emotional/angry/salty people maybe run a mile before answering back to this.

EDIT

You also said the inifinite footstool doesnt work on MOST characters, so since you know IC's better than i. Who does it work on?

 

[Binary Clone]

What else do you want me to say? I said i learned from this debate and i appreciated the knowledge you explained.
I am pretty sure i was DI'ing in directions, i have played fumbles and beaten him in games but alot of his kills came from infinites (the footstool one in mid stage and the other one on the ledge). It sucks but i dont think its salt induced on his part nor really mine. I dont think infinites should exist, whether i understand them or not. Its not like im sitting with my controller idle while he does whatever he does. But hey what do i know about weird combos working just because a character is big. Who do you main again? Is it some weird small fast characer with projectiles? Just a question.

Also, As for the salty answer back, you really should not let your emotions write your salty messages for you. I was respectful to you (ignorant maybe, but at least reasonably respectful and didnt throw the salt word around). Blood pressure is a very common health problem with emotional/angry/salty people maybe run a mile before answering back to this.

EDIT

You also said the inifinite footstool doesnt work on MOST characters, so since you know IC's better than i. Who does it work on?

Dude.

You're basically saying "who do you main? I think I'm right about this 'cause I've played the game a couple times and I think this dude infinited me one time" to the person who literally designed PM Ice Climbers and is one of the top Ice Climbers players in PM.

Just... just think about that for a second before calling him salty and asking if he mains "some weird small fast characer with projectiles"

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Dude.

You're basically saying "who do you main? I think I'm right about this 'cause I've played the game a couple times and I think this dude infinited me one time" to the person who literally designed PM Ice Climbers and is one of the top Ice Climbers players in PM.

Just... just think about that for a second before calling him salty and asking if he mains "some weird small fast characer with projectiles"

There are also no other infinites. You can DI the footstool infinite btw which is why it doesn't work on most characters.

.

This was all he had to say instead of being rude

I came in knowing i didn't know IC worked which is why i asked. People got snappy so i snapped back. Ignorant, yes but i never really cross the line to being rude to someone who ultimately is trying to learn.

 

[Hylian]

All I'll say is you shouldn't play Bowser against IC's, as it's by far his worst match-up and their best match-up. FWIW I don't believe the footstool infinite works on bowser(I haven't actually tested it on bowser but I'm pretty sure he's too big), but they don't need any sort of infinite to beat him as everything they have just destroys the character.

I'm not trying to be rude, I was responding to the fact that you said that fumbles only wins with infinites, which is rude and untrue towards him.

 

[nimigoha]

So Snake just jumped up a tier.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

All I'll say is you shouldn't play Bowser against IC's, as it's by far his worst match-up and their best match-up. FWIW I don't believe the footstool infinite works on bowser(I haven't actually tested it on bowser but I'm pretty sure he's too big), but they don't need any sort of infinite to beat him as everything they have just destroys the character.

I'm not trying to be rude, I was responding to the fact that you said that fumbles only wins with infinites, which is rude and untrue towards him.

Maybe he doesn't but against me he did, he even said that without it he would have alot more trouble (and i did take games off it with bowser).

Sorry for the lash at him (didn't really mean it, hes awesome how he does all those moves i dont understand and plays a "low tier" well)

How do you feel about the rob or olimar match up then?

 

[Hylian]

I think IC's beat Rob slightly(like 55-45) and I think they beat Olimar 60-40. I think IC's vs Bowser is possibly the worst match-up in the game, so it's impressive that you took games from fumbles.

 

[Life]

I think IC's beat Rob slightly(like 55-45) and I think they beat Olimar 60-40. I think IC's vs Bowser is possibly the worst match-up in the game, so it's impressive that you took games from fumbles.

Say you wanted to bring the ICs-Bowser matchup to a more reasonable level. How would you go about it?

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I think IC's beat Rob slightly(like 55-45) and I think they beat Olimar 60-40. I think IC's vs Bowser is possibly the worst match-up in the game, so it's impressive that you took games from fumbles.

When i switched to olimar to try to counter him, i just felt like everything he did beat my moves except purples, maybe it was cause im more reliant on grabs with olimar but i just felt like i could not get in to do anything and anything at a distance was invalidated by his projectile.

Say you wanted to bring the ICs-Bowser matchup to a more reasonable level. How would you go about it?

I feel like its not an IC thing, but i feel like with more bowser changes, the match will naturally get better IF he gains the neutral game that he is lacking. I mean yea the infinites suck, but if they are not true infinites and i can avoid the ledges (bowser has a good ledge game) then bowser can split them up. I think its just bowser having trouble in neutral and MAYBE the possibility of footstool to unreasonable percents (granted i need to test this now).

I would not nerf IC unless the footstool is a legit infinite, but if its not and im just ignorant to the MU, then no lol.

 

[Hylian]

Say you wanted to bring the ICs-Bowser matchup to a more reasonable level. How would you go about it?

Make bowser faster/not as huge I guess. I dunno, IC's just kind of take advantage of how easy he is to grab. If he wasn't easy to grab the match-up would be a lot harder.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

So Snake just jumped up a tier.

Why? Not being mean, just curious. Outside of battlefield layout stages, snake doesn't seem rage inducing unless your a slow character.

 

[steelguttey]

I think IC's beat Rob slightly(like 55-45) and I think they beat Olimar 60-40. I think IC's vs Bowser is possibly the worst match-up in the game, so it's impressive that you took games from fumbles.

i disagree on olimar, actually. i think its very even, side b not only does what it does to everyone else but it also puts % on one climber, like fox lasers does. also, fair and fsmash are very good spacing tools against ics. blizzard is a pain in the ass tho. havent played phresh since 3.5 but he used to be a regular at my local so i have some experience in the mu.

its also the jankiest matchup in the game, the pmdt gets mad at you when you play it

 

[Hylian]

I just play it like it's brawl and it seems pretty easy. Just go super blizzard heavy and cover Olimars landings with Ice Shot to get easy grabs. You can just swat away olimars side-b while desynching.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why is the footstool regrab being talked about like it's an infinite? In order to get more then one regrab you have to delay the throws to give nana time to fall to the ground after the footstool. It's more than a pummel's worth of time, meaning you can just mash out under like 50% with normal means and under 100 with a good custom controls scheme

 

[Tomaster]

Why? Not being mean, just curious. Outside of battlefield layout stages, snake doesn't seem rage inducing unless your a slow character.

So true, using Mewtwo against Snake always makes me wanna wish Snake wasn't in the game. But with Diddy it just feels like a normal match up... Even though Mewtwo probably should do better against snake than Diddy. Speed makes it so much less annoying.

 

[Player -0]

Why is the footstool regrab being talked about like it's an infinite? In order to get more then one regrab you have to delay the throws to give nana time to fall to the ground after the footstool. It's more than a pummel's worth of time, meaning you can just mash out under like 50% with normal means and under 100 with a good custom controls scheme

I mentioned this :C

Hylian How do you DI the footstool CG? I was under the impression you couldn't due to factors I mentioned earlier (non-drift state after footstool, footstool right after release of grab, can't SDI because no hitlag/"hits")

 

[Chevy]

Probably not a good example of the matchup, but I saw some random Bowser by the name of Jorge beat ChuDat's Ice Climbers at Paragon in PM Pools. He wasn't that good, but he had all of his dumb bowser tech down pretty well, it was probably the scrubbiest match I saw at Paragon.

 

[Soft Serve]

^here's the set

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

So true, using Mewtwo against Snake always makes me wanna wish Snake wasn't in the game. But with Diddy it just feels like a normal match up... Even though Mewtwo probably should do better against snake than Diddy. Speed makes it so much less annoying.

Don't know, after you realize you don't have to approach in the snake vs diddy matchup it gets a lot easier. Snake has good aggression with proper setup, but diddy has all the tools to shut it down before he gets started. Mewtwo can edgeguard snake well, but dies so early up top its not even funny. Honestly I would rather have the mobility. Killing at 140 isn't an issue when you combo to 78%.

 

[Jamble]

Maybe this is me being a scrub too, but I don't see scrubbiness there. I see an incredibly smart bowser player methodically and consistently peeling Nana away from the main IC, eliminating his opponent's main strength. I mean, if not playing well, he's at least definitely got strategy down.

 

[Hylian]

Watching chu play PM IC's makes me sad lol.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

http://www.compete-complete.com/2015/10/mindfulness.html

This is tangentially related I guess... Since everybody seems to discredit what Nausicaa says, the reason being he is crazyor something, having a well known and respected player who seems to be advocating for the same mindset.

The DK discussion got me thinking about him again. What is considered a "good dash dance" and is there an effective way of measuring it? This would help remove bias and "feel" from the equation and get more accurate results. People mention DK has a good DD, but it doesn't feel good to me. That could be poor understanding on my part, but maybe a data supported "dash dance tier list" could be useful in determining grounded movement options.

 

[CORY]

The difference is naus goes in circles and rambles about tangents that don't make sense to most people, rather than actually making a point then supporting it, which is what wobbles does, even if he's a bit long winded about doing so.

 

[Life]

You can measure dash dancing by a few factors:

1. Dash animation length (easily observable and probably documented in the statistics thread)
2. Max dashdance distance (also not super hard to figure, although you may need to account for character model size)
3. Dash acceleration and max speed (since those determine how quickly you move during a DD)
4. Options out of DD (qualitative and therefore subject to bias, but some good examples are how good the following things are: their grab animations and throws, their OOS options because DD shield is pretty good, their aerials and aerial mobility since you can easily transition into those from DD, their wavedashes for obvious reasons, their dash attack, their pivot options...)

Also, different dash dances are good for different reasons, meaning one may be better than the other in different situations. Marth's DD is good in part because of its length, but also because dashdancing is the easiest way to get a grab and Marth has amazing throws; Sonic's DD is good because he's really fast; Falco's DD is good because the counterplay to lasers involves spacing yourself precisely and catching on to the rhythm, and his DD is just long enough to mess with that, despite the fact that Falco's actual dash dancing is statistically inferior to a lot of the cast.

 

[nimigoha]

I think a good DD is long, allowing you to cover a decent distance but then turn back at the last second.

Then it needs to be quick.

And it also needs to have solid options when you leave it.

The best DDs cover all of these. Marth and Roy, Fox, and DK off the top of my head.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's known in melee that DK can do it, but it's so difficult that literally no DK actually uses it as a part of their regular gameplay. The key is to cancel the punch so fast that you don't even see DK raising his fist. I don't have a gfy unfortunately. Only reason I know about it actually is because GrandpaDukes was talking to me about it..

It's not really the speed, it's just a 1-frame window. I don't remember the timing exactly, but I think it was 7 frames after pressing B. This significantly reduces how long the punch charge cancel animation lasts. It doesn't matter much in PM bc you can just RAR instead.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Anybody know if there are any really good ICies sets I can watch? Ideally something that showcases a variety of things they can do against a competent opponent rather than one or two stupid things working on a bad player

 

[Hylian]

Anybody know if there are any really good ICies sets I can watch? Ideally something that showcases a variety of things they can do against a competent opponent rather than one or two stupid things working on a bad player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-l4zL-9BiA

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'd argue that a long dash->run time is slightly detrimental in an optimized PM environment. Crouch dashing essentially grants an indefinitely long initial dash, so the benefits of a longer dash are mitigated while the disadvantages (later run cancel and RAR windows) are still in full effect.

 

[DrinkingFood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-l4zL-9BiA

its too laggy :'c

 

[Tomaster]

Don't know, after you realize you don't have to approach in the snake vs diddy matchup it gets a lot easier. Snake has good aggression with proper setup, but diddy has all the tools to shut it down before he gets started. Mewtwo can edgeguard snake well, but dies so early up top its not even funny. Honestly I would rather have the mobility. Killing at 140 isn't an issue when you combo to 78%.

True, 140 would be a low percent kill in that matchup tho haha, unless Snake DIs badly or you pull some crazy meteor. There's also the fact that Snake can combo Diddy to high percents too with him being a fast faller and all... I'm not sure who would do better in that match up though, Snake is a unique character.

 

[Hylian]

its too laggy :'c

...that's your internet not the video lol.

 

[Rᴏb]

...that's your internet not the video lol.

The video is pretty choppy

 

[Hylian]

Youtube must be acting up. I've watched that video several times and it's never been choppy lol. Weird.

 

[Bazkip]

...that's your internet not the video lol.

It's laggy at 240p. I'm pretty sure that means it's not our internet.

Edit: Dammit ninja'd

 

[tasteless gentleman]

^here's the set

I stopped watching after game 2 but heres what i observed.

That bowser knew how to ledge dash correctly and what was safe, he knew the MU and what he had to do, And honestly he didn't make too many mistakes aside from giving himself up with bowser bomb ledge grabs.

ChuDat did not use infinites (he had opportunities). The biggest grab punish i saw was mostly a throw into smash attack (that was more potential), there were some better ones but the most common was that. I dont think chu knew the MU very well, he ate bomb bombs and up B ALOT and ran into fire breath quite a bit.

That Bowser player was for sure not bad, maybe his movement was not crazy good BUT he for sure knew all the tech and was playing the MU perfectly patient.

Why exactly was this match Scrubby? Both players were pretty good i in different aspects and the winner was the one with the MU knowledge and who adapted better.

Why is the footstool regrab being talked about like it's an infinite? In order to get more then one regrab you have to delay the throws to give nana time to fall to the ground after the footstool. It's more than a pummel's worth of time, meaning you can just mash out under like 50% with normal means and under 100 with a good custom controls scheme

So it is not a regrab infinite?

 

[The Baron]

[QUOTE="tasteless gentleman, post: 20341345, member: 301661"

So it is not a regrab infinite?[/QUOTE]
The only "infinite" ICs have is the one at the ledge, and even that one is limited by space. The footstool one can be mashed out of and DI'd out of while the others are beaten by DI as well. Everything is a regrab, not an infinite and just about everyone, even bowsercan actually get out of all of them.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

[QUOTE="tasteless gentleman, post: 20341345, member: 301661"

So it is not a regrab infinite?

The only "infinite" ICs have is the one at the ledge, and even that one is limited by space. The footstool one can be mashed out of and DI'd out of while the others are beaten by DI as well. Everything is a regrab, not an infinite and just about everyone, even bowsercan actually get out of all of them.[/QUOTE]
The mashing out bit i can agree with, BUT have you tested or seen anyone test the footstool regrab on bowser? The reason i ask and question this (aside from who i am) is because Hylian says that he has not actually tested this on bowser either. Which means that likely no one has actually tested it (aside from fumbles who i dont even think has an account here). Seeing how me and fumbles dont go to the same local anymore and we live far away its not like we can meet up to just see if DI'ing with bowser would help this regrab (i dont think it would, but testing is needed).

OR

Maybe fumbles is just a really good player who spent his summer learning this frame data trick of foot stooling regrab cause he definately makes it look faster than alot of people are saying (once again maybe no one actually tested this for a whole summer and perfected it).


Basically i am saying lets not rule it out until we actually test it.

Also, If i may ask, what is your source to this statement of "bowser can get out of all of them"?
When i last spoke to fumbles. He said that bowser can escape but by the time he can, hes already well above death percent and will be killed off already.

 

[The Baron]

The mashing out bit i can agree with, BUT have you tested or seen anyone test the footstool regrab on bowser? The reason i ask and question this (aside from who i am) is because Hylian says that he has not actually tested this on bowser either. Which means that likely no one has actually tested it (aside from fumbles who i dont even think has an account here). Seeing how me and fumbles dont go to the same local anymore and we live far away its not like we can meet up to just see if DI'ing with bowser would help this regrab (i dont think it would, but testing is needed).

OR

Maybe fumbles is just a really good player who spent his summer learning this frame data trick of foot stooling regrab cause he definately makes it look faster than alot of people are saying (once again maybe no one actually tested this for a whole summer and perfected it).


Basically i am saying lets not rule it out until we actually test it.

Also, If i may ask, what is your source to this statement of "bowser can get out of all of them"?
When i last spoke to fumbles. He said that bowser can escape but by the time he can, hes already well above death percent and will be killed off already.

The fact that you are bowser doesn't influence why mashing works. In pm, you can easily and consistently mash put of a grab before the first pummel, provided you are willing to do it. With the footstool regrab you have time to mash put simply because pop has to wait for Nana to land first which takes the span of about one pummel which is more than enough time to mash out. DI, no, I've not tested that but as far as the basic press buttons till they let go side of the regrab, you can accomplish that part pretty easily with any character.