Tier List Speculation

[Nausicaa]

focus him around footsies you would need to bump up his speed because he isn't great at that gameplan either.

So it depends on how good his punish/edge-game is, and crouching.
How does he get hits? Breaking neutral with approaches or crouching bad approaches, and that's it?
Seems like there's some footsies in order, unless you have some other way of explaining how Kirby even GETS to that punish/edge-game. That punish/edge-game shouldn't matter at ALL in a match-up if it never comes into play. Either that, or there's something Kirby CAN DO that makes him work.

How does Kirby WORK?
Pretend he 'is' good, if that helps. Why IS Kirby good outside of punish game? Can he... threaten people enough that they want to hit him when he approaches so he can actually play to his crouching-strength in a way that gives him a positional/tactical advantage? If he is threatening enough that people want to hit him, why is he?
There's more to this than just punish and crouching and dash speed.
I want to know wtf is up.
What game-plan does Kirby have? If it's crouching, how does counter-dodging an attack even come into play if he isn't even threatening enough to bother approaching with anything that it can dodge? What is THERE that makes people attack him in a way that crouch matters at all?
I want answers dammit! hahaha


Edit: Pit is fast enough.

 

[Jonyc128]

This really isn't that uncommon. You have characters like Mario, Roy, Peach, and a few others who have faster down smashes than their down tilt.

I don't really think Pit's dtilt is an issue. If anything, I think his dtilt sets a good example of a move that should be used vs a bad approach option, and not just something you can throw out every time you get hit because you know that it will either link into easy damage or outright kill at certain percents. Roy's dtilt hitbox comes out on frame 8, while Pit's comes out on 9. Sure, that's a one frame difference. I'm okay with that. Then you look at GnW's dtilt, which is active on frame 6, has a huge, misleading hitbox, and is also active for a whopping 7 frames. But I'm not here to start another debate about that character.

Pit's dtilt in 3.0 was incredibly fast. I think the hitbox started on anywhere from frame 6 to 8, but I can't remember. Dtilt also has more hitstun than Down Smash, and you act out of it faster than down smash. I don't think that the PMDT wants to go back to Pit having a dtilt that not only led to potentially safe strings on shield, but also so that crouch cancelling in general is less of an abused option for Pit.

Dtilt hasn't been much of an issue for me ever since they buffed it in 3.6b. My actual problems from Pit stem from the fact that his multi hit moves are awful. Up-Smash and nair are unreliable more often than they should be. I also have an issue with his glide being as slow as it is. If you're gonna make getting even tapped out of glide with the weakest of moves/projectiles basically mean death for Pit offstage, at least add some of the initial velocity that was taken away bac so that I can use it for good mid range approach options like it was supposed to be used for.

Mario's dtilt is just as fast as his downsmash. Both come out frame 5

 

[redbeanjelly]

In addition to that, he's a light character too (weight of 80, same as Pikachu, lighter than Ness's weight of 94) with poor defensive options (bad shield, committal OOS options). If you're going to retain that frailty to that character and keep him susceptible to pressure, it makes sense to counterbalance that with good mobility to be able to avoid getting pinned down in the first place. A 5-frame jumpsquat just slows him down so much more than you expect once you start playing the character.

Pit does have a DI mixup on Upthrow/Downthrow - it just doesn't really work on heavy characters cause you can't follow up on Upthrow as quickly. It's not the worst thing in the world, downthrow techchasing is still really good.

His kill setups can kinda Marth-out a bit, but maybe Pit's just need to get better at comboing into them at relevant kill percents. And edgeguarding.

**** Upsmash. I hold my breath every time I hit that C-stick.

 

[FreeGamer]

What game-plan does Kirby have? If it's crouching, how does counter-dodging an attack even come into play if he isn't even threatening enough to bother approaching with anything that it can dodge? What is THERE that makes people attack him in a way that crouch matters at all?
I want answers dammit! hahaha

His D-Tilt is pretty amazing actually, and D-Smash isn't too bad either once the other person is past CC percent. Not to mention his jumpsquat and N-Air are both 3 frames. The gameplan in most MUs is to build up just enough damage to get the other person offstage, then proceed to gimp them to hell. Building up this early damage is much much easier when your crouch negates much of the other person's grab/projectiles/etc. Playing footsies with tilts and aerials is rather difficult when you're up against anyone with enough speed/range/projectiles. He can play that game, but that doesn't mean he's great at it. Why don't you try solo-maining him both on Netplay and at whatever events are near you for the next 6 months, then get back to me about his design?

 

[Player -0]

Pit's Up-throw/Down-Throw mixup is so jank. Feels like Sheik's Up Throw.

Speaking of which, by ledge or close-ish to ledge D-Throw/F-Throw mixup for lyf. It's like DDD's but a tad worse.

About Kirby: He has some situational launchers but all of his stuff sends up and he doesn't have the aerial mobility (jumps are slow and mobility in general) to chase them down and punish landings. It teaches you to throw them offstage instead of juggling them into infinity if you switch to Marth though lol

 

[Life]

My favorite fun fact is when people call Pit "midweight" and I tell them that he's actually lighter than Squirtle (who sits at 83 IIRC).

The real Pit throw mixup is fthrow dthrow at the edge. Uthrow is nice too. Bthrow is awful tho.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Squirtle is 82 weight, just like Sonic. It is understandable that people call Pit lightweight because in Brawl he was a midweight (IIRC 95, so the same as Mario, give or take).

 

[Player -0]

B-Throw as a strictly positional throw is decent-ish. It sends them offstage when by ledge so it works for me.

Then you can use Pit's amazing F-Tilt/arrow/lol to meme them to death.

Also ninja'ed Life, #gotem

 

[Life]

(It's hardly ninja'd when I get to see the post before I submit my own reply.)

And like, yeah bthrow sends people offstage when your back is to the ledge, but it's pretty mediocre even at doing that. I *think* bthrow dash attack might combo on the worst possible DI on space animals, but I haven't bothered to figure that out because seriously why would I ever do that

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Up throw down throw is a di trap on Fox at low percents. You can mix there di into a regrab around 10 or so. Still maintain that low percent options are terrible for pit. The only moves I can think of that work well at low percent are Nair, dthrow tech chases, and maybe dair?

 

[redbeanjelly]

Upthrow doesn't lead to regrab on fastfallers till +40%-ish, to my knowledge.

 

[Life]

Yeah, it's sort of Sheik-like on spacies past about 35. Frame perfect uthrow regrab on Fox with incorrect DI is about there. For those of us who don't like to practice things we're almost certainly never going to need, you might want to start a little later LOL.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Oh woops, its down throw that can start getting regrabs on poor di. At 0 with bad di it nets exactly 7 frames of advantage. I was confusing it with something else I tested. It was a setup for tech chasing on bad di (due to the mixup). If they di either throw wrong you immediately jab and still have enough frames to grab tech in place/grab tech rolls.

http://smashboards.com/threads/3-6-pit-impressions.407545/page-2

I posted data here, about the middle of the page.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

This really isn't that uncommon. You have characters like Mario, Roy, Peach, and a few others who have faster down smashes than their down tilt.

I don't really think Pit's dtilt is an issue. If anything, I think his dtilt sets a good example of a move that should be used vs a bad approach option, and not just something you can throw out every time you get hit because you know that it will either link into easy damage or outright kill at certain percents. Roy's dtilt hitbox comes out on frame 8, while Pit's comes out on 9. Sure, that's a one frame difference. I'm okay with that. Then you look at GnW's dtilt, which is active on frame 6, has a huge, misleading hitbox, and is also active for a whopping 7 frames. But I'm not here to start another debate about that character.

Pit's dtilt in 3.0 was incredibly fast. I think the hitbox started on anywhere from frame 6 to 8, but I can't remember. Dtilt also has more hitstun than Down Smash, and you act out of it faster than down smash. I don't think that the PMDT wants to go back to Pit having a dtilt that not only led to potentially safe strings on shield, but also so that crouch cancelling in general is less of an abused option for Pit.

Dtilt hasn't been much of an issue for me ever since they buffed it in 3.6b. My actual problems from Pit stem from the fact that his multi hit moves are awful. Up-Smash and nair are unreliable more often than they should be. I also have an issue with his glide being as slow as it is. If you're gonna make getting even tapped out of glide with the weakest of moves/projectiles basically mean death for Pit offstage, at least add some of the initial velocity that was taken away bac so that I can use it for good mid range approach options like it was supposed to be used for.

My thing is that roys down tilt has so much range on pits dtilit. Basically roy is faster, more range, pops up for combos... just better. And i feel like that for alot of down tilits compared to pits.

I still want D-Smash reverted to be not dumb. 3.6 nerfed it so hard. Like the buffs he got might not have been worth the trade imo.

Current D-Smash is option coverage? Old one by ledge covers all options with pretty much best option possible. They tech in place/miss tech/tech roll? Forward hit launches them into the depths of "semispike" hell. They tech in? Lol 2nd hit pops up for free juggles.

Horizontal KB on both hits pls. Current D-Smash doesn't pop people up in CC wars, doesn't kill, option coverage is okay but you really have to work for followups after that, if they're low-medium percents forget it.


Also I still have no clue if people abuse how easy to recover/escape juggles with Down B.

Speaking of which I need to check Pit's arm's hitbox for Dair for optimization on followups. Also Nair is as easy to SDI out of as Ness' Fair. Get shined out of Up Smash during the 2nd hit after catching Fox coming from above. Don't know if people B-Reverse Up-B off of offstage juggles into kill. Need to watch people in 3.6 but can't find anything or they're baaddd.

Ramble.

@Hylian The way I do the footstool CG is press x to jump -> press down during/finishing jumpsquat to get down throw -> y to footstool -> regrab (with Z. Nana Nairs on the way down often due to this . Speaking of which you can probably Fair on the way down to cover mash outs) -> repeat.

During this there's minimal time to DI (lots of time to mash so <50 if they're mashing "lightly" <75 if they can actually mash). Nana auto rubberbands back to me during this automatically. So if the opponent is mashing this is more of a mixup to set up for a different set up (lol) or ~120% you can kill off of it.

I spoke to fumbles directly, waiting for him to get back to me with one more question i asked and then ill post the entire conversation.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Roy's dtilt is better than Pit's, but has to be viewed in the context of a character that's much more fragile, has no multijumps and no projectile, has less and weaker neutral options, and doesn't have Sheik's dthrow.

I still don't think Pit is particularly good atm for a number of reasons, but there's a bunch of reasons why one character's version of a move may be strictly better than another.

 

[DMG]

Except for that time when Roy Dtilt was effectively God's Hard-On no matter what

 

[Ner0]

so since this is effectively remaking melee wouldn't the tier list be very similar to melee's?

 

[eideeiit]

your first assumption is wrong

http://projectmgame.com/en/about

 

[Droß]

Roy's dtilt is better than Pit's, but has to be viewed in the context of a character that's much more fragile, has no multijumps and no projectile, has less and weaker neutral options, and doesn't have Sheik's dthrow.

I still don't think Pit is particularly good atm for a number of reasons, but there's a bunch of reasons why one character's version of a move may be strictly better than another.

I'd like to hear those reasons; I think Pit is heavily underutilized and his current potential is therefore untapped. He's likely underrated too, although I'm unsure of how much so.

 

[prem]

I'd like to hear those reasons

Roy's dtilt is better than Pit's, but has to be viewed in the context of a character that's much more fragile, has no multijumps and no projectile, has less and weaker neutral options, and doesn't have Sheik's dthrow.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I'd like to hear those reasons; I think Pit is heavily underutilized and his current potential is therefore untapped. He's likely underrated too, although I'm unsure of how much so.

I mean didn't armada and zero drop pit/PM because of the nerfs?
Its hard to keep representation when several people dropped him over a nerf (i dropped him when he was my main and went to solo bowser because of this too), and when that happens i bet it discourages new players/vets from picking him up because of how bad he appears now. Like if you looked up a zero or armada match in 3.02 and then tried it and had it fail miserably (because obviously its gone) then you probably would not pick pit up ever again. He was over radically nerfed, every pit i played (with bowser, olimar, rob, even a fraud diddy) i never had a problem with or even felt threatened. I never even got walled of pained because its too slow now.

Also i agree with Frost | Odds on that pit is not in a good spot right now. I feel like all of his options were gutted/replaced with worse stuff. I mean dont get me wrong pit was horribly strong in 3.02 BUT so was alot of the cast and most of their changes were only to the most over powered stuff, not his whole kit. I am not saying that pits down tilit has to be better or equal too roys (that was maybe an extreme example because roys dtilit is really good) but in the scales of balance shouldn't pits dtilt be faster since it has less range/combo ability? Yea its CC breaker and combo starter on floaties but i feel like tool wise... i find myself avoiding it more than using it even with its recent speed buff.

 

[Droß]

Oh I wasn't speifically talking about dtilt, rather his entire kit. He got gutted for sure but he still has well defined strengths in his down throw, dash dance, up smash, and distance he can reach to for gimps/edgeguards.

Just because top top players abandoned him doesn't mean he'a useless. This trend happens all the time in League of Legends; character gets overnerfed, isn't useful in the current meta, and then all of the sudden they experience a resurgence a year or two later and are firmly in the top 5.

I know PM isn't League of Legends, but you'd be surprised how quickly small changes to the nerfee or other characters can skyrocket them
back to the spotlight.

Now, if there's a character that does the same thing Pit does but in an objectively better manner, then we have a huge problem with his kit at fundamental levels and need to evaluate and make changes accordingly. Also I would be completely and utterly wrong.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

prem He meant he wanted to hear reasons for why Odds thinks Pit's bad, not why his dtilt is (basically) objectively worse than Roy's.

 

[Life]

The closest thing to Pit in the current meta is some weird cross of Sheik, Puff, and a bit of the dashdance swordy archetype like Marth, Roy, and MK have. I'd say the closest thing to "strictly better version of Pit" is Sheik, but she at least gets edgeguarded more easily.

And for the billionth time, 3.02 Pit was overrated; he was gutted in 3.5 because people (presumably including the PMDT) thought he was stronger than he actually was thanks to the success of Armada and Zero, so the devs overcompensated. Mewtwo and Lucas were a tier above him even back then and they got off more or less fine (their metagame took a while to catch up to their nerfs though). Diddy Kong is arguably top 5 even now. Mario is still good. Lucario was still good in 3.5 but is a bit more questionable these days.

3.6 helped, Pit is playable now, but he's hardly top 10 material.

There also isn't a single good solo Pit main anymore. I've been trying as hard as I can to push his meta, but I don't think I can be the hero Pit needs from a button-pressing perspective, at least not as I am right now. Nobody who's any good seems to be inclined to stick with the character--Gallo relies much more on his Mario from what I can tell, Sharkz is better known for ICs, Odds and Ripple tried but gave up(?)... like seriously people, Ness of all characters has good players, and I'd ask why not Pit but I think I suspect the answer:

It's actually really hard to practice important Pit things. Pit doesn't have hard combo punishes like Fox or Wolf or Lucas or even Marth have. What Pit does is abuse positional advantage really really well. Uair has a massive hitbox and pretty long active frames. All of his throws are positional or DI-mixup in nature (except for dthrow which mostly combos into positional-advantage moves anyway). He has a whole bunch of launchers in his kit. He has a high-knockback back air which is great for edgeguarding. He has a nair for crossing up on shield and otherwise covering lots of aerial space like a counterfeit Falcon nair. He has arrows to harass people who try to camp him and unbalance mindless aggressors (they're hardly a good combo tool anymore though). He has a glide so he can afford to jump far offstage to edgeguard and still recover (though his fair doesn't really wall-of-pain well anymore). He has fairly decent anti-combo properties (Pikachu's weight and fall speed along with three double jumps).

But what I'm getting at is that the proper use of those things aren't just a matter of learning how to press the buttons well and follow DI. You have to know how to cover as many options as possible after getting a hit, rather than just knowing which option will hit them before they get out of hitstun. In that sense, Pit plays like a Brawl or Smash 4 character, movement aside of course. And when you think of it that way, is it really surprising that hardly anybody in the PM community wants to play him? Playing a character with Brawl punishes and Melee movement is really exhausting. And it's also really hard to practice those things except by playing the game a whole lot.

It's also possible I'm just bad and Pit has more combo potential than I'm giving him credit for.

tl;dr there is no tl;dr because I'm basically ranting at this point and the summary wouldn't be much better than the ranting

 

[Frost | Odds]

As always, please keep in mind that my opinions don't necessarily reflect those of the DT.

Pit's biggest flaw AFAICT is that he's a dagger character with the frame data of a sword character. He can compensate because of a few really good qualities (dashdance, dthrow, uair are all solid, arrows are nice to have, fairly decent combo weight for most matchups), but generally speaking, sword characters have poor frame data so that they're prevented from just walling out characters with less reach and disjoint. Pit can't really wall out anyone unless they're above him. He gets outranged surprisingly easily from all other angles.

This is part of it. The other big part is how badly I think Pit suffers from marthritis against opponents with good DI. Pit doesn't really have any true DI mixups in his combos (down+away is always correct), so he has to catch an opponent very badly out of position or otherwise work very hard to get a kill setup, in situations where other characters with comparably strong neutrals/punish games would be able to do the same thing very easily.

I'm still sort of trying to develop my pit off-and-on, but between school, dev team stuff, and practicing Bowser/Pikachu, it's not really going anywhere atm.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

The closest thing to Pit in the current meta is some weird cross of Sheik, Puff, and a bit of the dashdance swordy archetype like Marth, Roy, and MK have. I'd say the closest thing to "strictly better version of Pit" is Sheik, but she at least gets edgeguarded more easily.

And for the billionth time, 3.02 Pit was overrated; he was gutted in 3.5 because people (presumably including the PMDT) thought he was stronger than he actually was thanks to the success of Armada and Zero, so the devs overcompensated. Mewtwo and Lucas were a tier above him even back then and they got off more or less fine (their metagame took a while to catch up to their nerfs though). Diddy Kong is arguably top 5 even now. Mario is still good. Lucario was still good in 3.5 but is a bit more questionable these days.

3.6 helped, Pit is playable now, but he's hardly top 10 material.

There also isn't a single good solo Pit main anymore. I've been trying as hard as I can to push his meta, but I don't think I can be the hero Pit needs from a button-pressing perspective, at least not as I am right now. Nobody who's any good seems to be inclined to stick with the character--Gallo relies much more on his Mario from what I can tell, Sharkz is better known for ICs, Odds and Ripple tried but gave up(?)... like seriously people, Ness of all characters has good players, and I'd ask why not Pit but I think I suspect the answer:

It's actually really hard to practice important Pit things. Pit doesn't have hard combo punishes like Fox or Wolf or Lucas or even Marth have. What Pit does is abuse positional advantage really really well. Uair has a massive hitbox and pretty long active frames. All of his throws are positional or DI-mixup in nature (except for dthrow which mostly combos into positional-advantage moves anyway). He has a whole bunch of launchers in his kit. He has a high-knockback back air which is great for edgeguarding. He has a nair for crossing up on shield and otherwise covering lots of aerial space like a counterfeit Falcon nair. He has arrows to harass people who try to camp him and unbalance mindless aggressors (they're hardly a good combo tool anymore though). He has a glide so he can afford to jump far offstage to edgeguard and still recover (though his fair doesn't really wall-of-pain well anymore). He has fairly decent anti-combo properties (Pikachu's weight and fall speed along with three double jumps).

But what I'm getting at is that the proper use of those things aren't just a matter of learning how to press the buttons well and follow DI. You have to know how to cover as many options as possible after getting a hit, rather than just knowing which option will hit them before they get out of hitstun. In that sense, Pit plays like a Brawl or Smash 4 character, movement aside of course. And when you think of it that way, is it really surprising that hardly anybody in the PM community wants to play him? Playing a character with Brawl punishes and Melee movement is really exhausting. And it's also really hard to practice those things except by playing the game a whole lot.

It's also possible I'm just bad and Pit has more combo potential than I'm giving him credit for.

tl;dr there is no tl;dr because I'm basically ranting at this point and the summary wouldn't be much better than the ranting

So lets think of it like this, Why is Pit so miserable to play that everyone who picks him up, doesn't use him enough to properly represent him?

I could compare pit to a worse version of puff with a d throw and some (not very good) arrows. But i wont, ill just ask what makes pit so... unfavorable to solo main/be good enough to represent him? I really feel like hes a shadow of his former self. I mean when bowser got gutted, i was mad as hell and then i dropped pm for like a week before picking it/bowser back up. I get the feeling, and bowser got fixed (a little) in 3.6, pit still is kinda weird and gutted kit wise. He has good stuff but... not really great stuff? Like even bowser has great stuff (overshadowed but there is greatness in him), pit just has a bunch of okay stuff not great and not really that fun even.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Even if Pit had been nerfed somewhat less in 3.5, I would not have been surprised to see Zero and Armada drop Pit. Why bother with Pit when they both have a Fox?

I suspect that Pit will be very close to where he ought to be once his multihits work properly and his movement is smoothed out a bit (better wavelands, possibly reduced jumpsquat time). He has the potential to be an extraordinarily well-rounded character, with few broadly dominant strengths but also few meaningful weaknesses. Done well, his matchup spread will trend very close to even across the board.

I also believe that those issues are part of what's limiting his representation right now. Clunky/partially dysfunctional movesets aren't exactly my idea of a good time.

Pit's arrows are a solid tool and should not be underestimated.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Even if Pit had been nerfed somewhat less in 3.5, I would not have been surprised to see Zero and Armada drop Pit. Why bother with Pit when they both have a Fox?

I suspect that Pit will be very close to where he ought to be once his multihits work properly and his movement is smoothed out a bit (better wavelands, possibly reduced jumpsquat time). He has the potential to be an extraordinarily well-rounded character, with few broadly dominant strengths but also few meaningful weaknesses. Done well, his matchup spread will trend very close to even across the board.

I also believe that those issues are part of what's limiting his representation right now. Clunky/partially dysfunctional movesets aren't exactly my idea of a good time.

Pit's arrows are a solid tool and should not be underestimated.

I agree with this... BUT do we really want a character that has a 45-55 for or against in EVERY match up? I mean i understand thats the goal and in theory it makes it so the character doesn't lose but the opponent does (which i agree with) but is it a good idea to give a character a straight even cut across the board?

Also pits arrows are mere shadows to what they use to be, they barely even hit stun anymore.

I feel like zero and armada dropped pm when they learned how unstable a character really is and maybe not really pit.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I feel like current opinions on Pit are pretty shallow. No one has represented Pit consistantly well enough. #MUchartsalt

 

[Soft Serve]

Why play pit when there's like 5 other characters that fill his niche better and are actually fun?

 

[Beorn]

Why play pit when there's like 5 other characters that fill his niche better and are actually fun?

I think pit is very fun. I still can't figure out how to play him how he "should" be played. That's probably because many of his moves are used in very similar situations to Link. If his usmash worked properly I would feel a lot better about him though...

 

[Player -0]

SPEAKING OF MULTIHITS NOT WORKING.

GO INTO A MATCH, YSE HIS RAPID JAB ON AN OPPONENT.

THEY GET POPPED OUT OF THE RAPID JABS BY THE INITIAL HIT OF THE REPEAT HITBOX.

IT'S THE MOST AWKWARD SEMISPIKE TOO

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Pit is fun, his hits just have no meat and his movement doesn't flow.

It's feels like I'm playing a two-color Magic deck and I have all these Forests but only one Plains on the board. The pieces are THERE and I know how they work and how it *should* be working but it just doesn't seem to be working right.

PMDT needs to put more plains in the deck is what I'm saying.

Oh I'm into card games now.

 

[King of Hoboz]

Pit is fun, his hits just have no meat and his movement doesn't flow.

It's feels like I'm playing a two-color Magic deck and I have all these Forests but only one Plains on the board. The pieces are THERE and I know how they work and how it *should* be working but it just doesn't seem to be working right.

PMDT needs to put more plains in the deck is what I'm saying.

Oh I'm into card games now.

Sounds like you might want to get some dual lands actually. (Swapping Forest for Plains imply nerfs to your land ratio ;-; )

 

[Life]

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure Pit's jab combo doesn't link right, either. Or it could just be CC+shield shenanigans that plague jab combos in general? Certain weights or fallspeeds? Now I'm not sure.

Also, for how difficult it is to hit, Pit's dair spike is really weak. If it's made for a finisher, it could use a touch extra KBG; if it's there to get followups out of, people usually hit the ground before Pit can actually do anything with it. If it's supposed to just be an Easter Egg based on those old Brawl rumors, okay, but...

It's not that Pit strictly speaking *needs* buffs, though, it's that stuff to give him better combos would make him less exhausting to play IMO. I should say his overall power level is either acceptable or only a touch weak, it's hard to say because again, character lacks rep.

 

[steelguttey]

My favorite fun fact is when people call Pit "midweight" and I tell them that he's actually lighter than Squirtle (who sits at 83 IIRC).

The real Pit throw mixup is fthrow dthrow at the edge. Uthrow is nice too. Bthrow is awful tho.

after testing it a bit awhile ago on some characters b-throw/dthrow is a di mixup. mostly big bodies, but its still a lil useful. plus if someone di's in on your bthrow you wont get guaranteed follow ups but you will put them in a very awkward position where they will have to land very soon.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

so since this is effectively remaking melee wouldn't the tier list be very similar to melee's?

Even with the simulators, so many characters have been overhauled/buffed/nerfed(sometimes in regards to their vmelee status) and added to the game that mechanical similarities have become almost meaningless when it comes to actually listing characters on their matchups against the rest of their cast in a unified engine.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Sonic also has a flat matchup spread T tasteless gentleman . Also, I'd argue Sheik's is pretty flat too.

 

[Soft Serve]

Also, I'd argue Sheik's is pretty flat too.

We're supposed to be talking tiers man, not waifus

Edit so I don't get infracted I guess

Pits still pretty mediocre. Multi hit moves don't work well except for a few because of their uses are more limited or have things like shine to catch proper sdi out anyway. Stuff like diddy upsmash is unreliable in a lot of situations but its not a combo tool, it's built as an anti cross up oos option so it linking perfectly isn't a big deal. For characters that need these multi hits as a launcher, there's a fine balance between being able to sdi out when attempting to, and having people falling out by accident.

Multi hits are significantly easier to convert from which is why they get sdI changes to hurt consistency of converting. No one likes being on the receiving end of zelda doing multiple upsmashes on a fox, but are generally okay if it's a fox ditto because the difficulty is a bit higher. I don't particularly like this trade off, because in an end game situation where hit confirms are on point no matter what, the multi hits are strictly worse than similar single hit launchers (at comboing afterwards, not getting the hit. Multiple hits mean hitboxes last longer which helps alot). I'm not saying they should all get the tink upsmash treatment but there's more trade offs in a play/enjoyable factor. Pmdt knows this of course so I think they know how to handle multi hits.

Personally I'd prefer for my characters to have single hit combo tools (and they all do, outaide of spacie drills and kirby dair). I'd rather the consistency on my punishes be in my hands, not the opponent's ability to sdi or the move to work properly l. They fixed this mostly for diddy's l fsmash going into 3.6, you can still sdi out or sdi down and shield but it's not as simple as just a asdi down. It's healthy imo, multi hits will get small tweaks and such tll everyone is in a good spot. While still being fun to use and play around, more important imo.

Id like my smash to be Fun and slightly chaotic to the alternative tbh.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wait a second squirtle weighs 83? He's ****ing tiny why does he not weigh like 70. He's smaller than fox, smaller than falco, smaller than a lot of characters in the 70-80 range
PMDT plz nerf fix