Tier List Speculation

NOTMalachi

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"Lol it's fine it has counter play" isn't an argument against the idea that randomly being rewarded with things like beamswords, stitch faces, purple pikmin, gordos and 9 hammers is ****ing ridiculous. As others have mentioned, RNG isn't inherently bad design, so if the possible outcomes for using an RNG-based move were all similar in effectiveness we wouldn't ever talk about this ****.

But that's not what we have. We have moves that have such huge disparities between how they decide to act.
D-did you even read what I said..? I never mentioned RNG. I don't even care for RNG tbh. I'm just shocked by how quickly people started shooting the nerf gun over something that isn't that great.
 
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D-did you even read what I said..? I never mentioned RNG. I don't even care for RNG tbh. I'm just shocked by how quickly people started shooting the nerf gun over something that isn't that great.
It's a discussion about design, not balance.

Is there counterplay? Of course. There are many ways to deal with it.

Should beam sword be there in the first place? In the opinion of many, no.
 

Rᴏb

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D-did you even read what I said..? I never mentioned RNG. I don't even care for RNG tbh. I'm just shocked by how quickly people started shooting the nerf gun over something that isn't that great.
I did read what you said, I don't think you're understanding what I said.
Part of my post addressed RNG, and part of my post addressed the disparity between the options you get from this RNG. You argued that beamswords aren't even that good by saying they have counterplay, I disagreed and implied that the benefits of pulling a beamsword were far greater than the benefits of pulling a turnip despite whatever counterplay exists for beamswords. My post was more about the design behind arbitrarily having such a better option rather than the actual strength of said option.
 

Soft Serve

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Snake is fine, Port priority is dumb though. Having to RPS a snake for 4th port every set just so you can grab his landings is kinda lame.

I think snake is a lot like Diddy, in that he has a good solid core character for interactions then a whole heap of gimmicks and tricks with easy counterplay that he can pull out when the opponent isn't expecting it. Like double sticky combos when you just survived a vertical kill. Like instant AGT of grenades up to fish for a kill off people you just upaired. or doing a fh grenade toss and then buffering shield>grab because the transition from air grenade hold to ground hold is lagless. Yeah there is a lot of tricks that have pretty simple counterplay but the thing is he would only pull them out that one or two situations where he needs it and it would work. Diddy is like that, his tool belt is gigantic, but he has less tricks and better movement instead.

That said have fun vs snake if your character is slow, easy to pin down, or struggles getting around walls of hitboxes/projectiles.


"welcome to PM" is a great description of snake lol. Tons of little tricks/jank that can catch you off guard, hard to approach if you're not playing a approach heavy character, but kinda blows vs disjoints/faster characters once they get in to certain zones
 
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NOTMalachi

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I did read what you said, I don't think you're understanding what I said.
Part of my post addressed RNG, and part of my post addressed the disparity between the options you get from this RNG. You argued that beamswords aren't even that good by saying they have counterplay, I disagreed and implied that the benefits of pulling a beamsword were far greater than the benefits of pulling a turnip despite whatever counterplay exists for beamswords. My post was more about the design behind arbitrarily having such a better option rather than the actual strength of said option.
Oh okay
We're clearly talking about two different thing, so no use arguing about it :/
 
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MTL Kyle

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Keep the double posts to a minimum, guys. MTL Kyle, knock it off with the whole "circlejerk" and "hugbox" stuff.
Doubleposts are usually me getting confused with posts appearing here while I post.
Afaik there was an IPB script that merged double posts, you should get an admin to look it up, as double posts are not relevant enough. I would much rather double post and make 2 different points rather than get ignored because someone might take my first 2 quotes as "flaming and offensive content".
It's really dumb having to wait someone to post to reply someone else that posted while you were writing something just to send someone a notification and keep the discussion going.
It's also pretty clear when someone is flooding for the sake of doing so and when someone is opening two different discussions.




I will only stop calling people out on "circlejerking" and "hugboxing" when they stop doing so.
People convince themselves with ultimate bull**** so they can feel better about themselves.

I'm impressed that this kind of attitude is encouraged here and I am pretty vocal on how toxic (buzzwords so you guys get what im saying) it is in the community, specially when it starts with the big opinion formers.

Unless you think this will get me banned, I will keep calling people out on those. And if you think it would, do you really think that "circlejerk" and "hugbox" are that offensive as words ? lolzz
 

Boiko

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Can someone run me through the counterplay to ICs ledge handoffs once they're in progress? Setups into fair spikes look very strong, but I don't play competent ICs very often.
For me it's a matter of not getting put into that position in the first place. Obviously it happens time to time though. But I say far too many NYC players fall into Phresh's set ups by failing to SDI the down throw>dair, or by playing around by the ledge rather than holding center stage.

Once it's in progress I just mash a lot and it gets me out pretty often, since his hand offs aren't always perfect. Otherwise I just mix up my DI when getting thrown off stage, then SDI the fair back into the stage and try to tech, but that doesn't always work. It's tough, but not unbeatable.

Edit: MTL Kyle MTL Kyle IC's aren't the worst character in the game or even that bad. You probably just don't understand them, since you seem to be under the incorrect impression that the infinite held their game together.
 
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MTL Kyle

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MTL Kyle MTL Kyle IC's aren't the worst character in the game or even that bad. You probably just don't understand them, since you seem to be under the incorrect impression that the infinite held their game together.
Develop your thought on why there are other characters worse than them ?

My points are :
The AI is ****y. They are technically not supposed to have regular chain throws. Infinite is gone. Some matchups are straight up cancer.
IMO they are objectively worse as a character than they are in Melee. The addition of some minor buffs does not make it up for the things they lost and I don't think in an environment like PM they have enough fire power to match the other characters of the cast.

Playerbase for the character is really small, the character serve almost no purpose as a counterpick as opposed to other characters would in other versions and I don't think they actually have a good matchup to carry them up in the tierlist.
 
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Still don't understand how anyone could think ICs are worse than Bowser. They can do pretty much all the desyncs they could in Melee and Brawl, with PM specific ones on top of that. They can wall out with Ice Blocks and Blizzards, handoff at the ledge, have good mobility and decent kill moves, and have an actual approach game.

You'd think that would be self-explanatory but apparently not.
 

Boiko

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Develop your thought on why there are other characters worse than them ?

My points are :
The AI is ****y. They are technically not supposed to have regular chain throws. Infinite is gone. Some matchups are straight up cancer.
IMO they are objectively worse as a character than they are in Melee. The addition of some minor buffs does not make it up for the things they lost and I don't think in an environment like PM they have enough fire power to match the other characters of the cast.

Playerbase for the character is really small, the character serve almost no purpose as a counterpick as opposed to other characters would in other versions and I don't think they actually have a good matchup to carry them up in the tierlist.
Sure, all good points. I think that the reason they are held back at a high level is due to their significant number of losing match ups: Peach, Fox, Samus, Tink, Ganondorf, Diddy, Lucas, among others, all beat them solidly. However, they have a seriously underrated neutral game. If it wasn't contingent upon their being two climbers, it would be arguably top tier. They have retained infinite hand offs by the ledge, effectively sealing a zone of the stage against characters that can not work out of the corner, like Samus. Put that in conjunction with their insane corner pressure, and things get even better for them if they manage to pin you to the ledge.

If you give IC's the time to set up and you can't out can't them, you're losing the neutral game. No matter what approach you choose to take against the climbers, you have to be good at it. Circle camping, camping with projectiles, holding center stage, all viable tactics, however, you're punished hard if you take even one misstep. It doesn't take long for IC's to set up their wall after putting you in a bad position. Couple that with them having a solid punish game and great kill conversions and you have a decent character.

Get rid of the backup climber and their neutral crumbles, obviously. But I think you're overstating how easy it is to kill Nana. As someone with a lot of experience against a strong IC's players, it's not as easy as you think.
 

Binary Clone

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Doubleposts are usually me getting confused with posts appearing here while I post.

It's really dumb having to wait someone to post to reply someone else that posted while you were writing something just to send someone a notification and keep the discussion going.
There's this revolutionary new feature called the "edit" button that works just fine. They might not get a notification, but most people actively discussing things here are actively reading things here and will see it anyway.

Oh wait that's not a new feature it's been here forever

I will only stop calling people out on "circlejerking" and "hugboxing" when they stop doing so.
People convince themselves with ultimate bull**** so they can feel better about themselves.

I'm impressed that this kind of attitude is encouraged here and I am pretty vocal on how toxic (buzzwords so you guys get what im saying) it is in the community, specially when it starts with the big opinion formers.

Unless you think this will get me banned, I will keep calling people out on those. And if you think it would, do you really think that "circlejerk" and "hugbox" are that offensive as words ? lolzz
Nobody said they were offensive words. They're just useless words. It's kind of funny that you demean "buzzwords" when you're talking about circlejerks. The reason that you shouldn't use them is because they contribute nothing to the discussion. You're just saying "you're all bad and all you do is agree with each other" as a strawman argument in favor of whatever it is you think. The mods are telling you to stop because your posts "calling people out" are absolutely worthless.


In order for this post to not be as worthless as Kyle's, I'll actually talk about the game, too.

I think ICs are pretty inherently difficult to balance. There's been a lot of talk lately about overall power levels, and how generally I think most people want to see it increased. The difficulty is in that degree of control you have over both ICs, and then the capabilities you gain through using them cooperatively. Having those two characters both active is incredibly powerful. With both of them there as a threat, you can't really afford a grab attempt most of the time, because you'll just get punished for it. That means a ton of typical counterplay is simply unavailable. It's aspects like these, I think, that make them hard to balance, and I think that's why ICs are so underwhelming in PM - when a character, by their nature, circumvents a typical aspect of the game, changes that would make another character just "strong" can easily make them absurd.

On another note, though, I don't think characters should straight up invalidate other characters, and ICs are guilty of this. Hard matchups are good. Like, unfavorable matchups. Difficult matchups. Matchups should not be unwinnable. Ice Climbers pretty much invalidate Bowser. Seriously, Popo alone can chaingrab Bowser to pretty high percents. I'm sure @Odds_ can attest to how bad this MU tends to be, if I'm remembering it correctly. I think this is a good example of how difficult it is to keep characters like ICs balanced. The aspect of ICs that makes this MU ridiculous (dthrow) is a pretty core aspect to typical ICs play in getting handoffs and starting combos and getting damage against other characters. It's a tool that is very powerful, but not inescapable or infinite or absurd, because their neutral game is weak enough that getting that grab in the first place should be a trial, and they should get a substantial reward for it. But this is thrown out the window against Bowser, whose main weakness is grabs in the first place, isn't hard to grab, and doesn't have a great neutral either. The punish is then extended by miles even when ICs have what is typically a massive disadvantage in having lost Nana.
 
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Why can't the leader of the bunch get the giant banana? Or better yet get his cart from Double Dash... I think we'd be better off giving Diddy red bananas that OHK like the 9 hammer.
Banana is why
Snake is fine, Port priority is dumb though. Having to RPS a snake for 4th port every set just so you can grab his landings is kinda lame.

I think snake is a lot like Diddy, in that he has a good solid core character for interactions then a whole heap of gimmicks and tricks with easy counterplay that he can pull out when the opponent isn't expecting it. Like double sticky combos when you just survived a vertical kill. Like instant AGT of grenades up to fish for a kill off people you just upaired. or doing a fh grenade toss and then buffering shield>grab because the transition from air grenade hold to ground hold is lagless. Yeah there is a lot of tricks that have pretty simple counterplay but the thing is he would only pull them out that one or two situations where he needs it and it would work. Diddy is like that, his tool belt is gigantic, but he has less tricks and better movement instead.

That said have fun vs snake if your character is slow, easy to pin down, or struggles getting around walls of hitboxes/projectiles.


"welcome to PM" is a great description of snake lol. Tons of little tricks/jank that can catch you off guard, hard to approach if you're not playing a approach heavy character, but kinda blows vs disjoints/faster characters once they get in to certain zones



The 4th port for you? Or for them? This is very important info i need to know.
 
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The 4th port for you? Or for them? This is very important info i need to know.
Whoever has 4th port doesn't take knockback when a grenade/mine breaks up a throw.

On the topic of grenades, from what I've seen there are still very few people actively spacing their moves around grenades. It is fully possible to hit an aerial in a way that both hits snake and whiffs the grenade drop. Back in 3.02 when Raziek played Snake, i got in a habit of reacting to an aerial grenade pull with spaced bair as Ness, aiming at his feet with a FF, or a fair from Mario aiming at his head. Once I worked this into my game grenades were as much a "get out of combo free" move as Peach/Luigi nair.
 

DMG

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That's true you can space some aerials that way, but it gets a bit more complicated with the possibility of fast falling, b reversing, and the short explosion timer. Some chars you may be better off attempting the trade at low % or letting him land and pressuring the landing (assuming say a platform)
 
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There's this revolutionary new feature called the "edit" button that works just fine. They might not get a notification, but most people actively discussing things here are actively reading things here and will see it anyway.

Oh wait that's not a new feature it's been here forever



Nobody said they were offensive words. They're just useless words. It's kind of funny that you demean "buzzwords" when you're talking about circlejerks. The reason that you shouldn't use them is because they contribute nothing to the discussion. You're just saying "you're all bad and all you do is agree with each other" as a strawman argument in favor of whatever it is you think. The mods are telling you to stop because your posts "calling people out" are absolutely worthless.


In order for this post to not be as worthless as Kyle's, I'll actually talk about the game, too.

I think ICs are pretty inherently difficult to balance. There's been a lot of talk lately about overall power levels, and how generally I think most people want to see it increased. The difficulty is in that degree of control you have over both ICs, and then the capabilities you gain through using them cooperatively. Having those two characters both active is incredibly powerful. With both of them there as a threat, you can't really afford a grab attempt most of the time, because you'll just get punished for it. That means a ton of typical counterplay is simply unavailable. It's aspects like these, I think, that make them hard to balance, and I think that's why ICs are so underwhelming in PM - when a character, by their nature, circumvents a typical aspect of the game, changes that would make another character just "strong" can easily make them absurd.

On another note, though, I don't think characters should straight up invalidate other characters, and ICs are guilty of this. Hard matchups are good. Like, unfavorable matchups. Difficult matchups. Matchups should not be unwinnable. Ice Climbers pretty much invalidate Bowser. Seriously, Popo alone can chaingrab Bowser to pretty high percents. I'm sure @Odds_ can attest to how bad this MU tends to be, if I'm remembering it correctly. I think this is a good example of how difficult it is to keep characters like ICs balanced. The aspect of ICs that makes this MU ridiculous (dthrow) is a pretty core aspect to typical ICs play in getting handoffs and starting combos and getting damage against other characters. It's a tool that is very powerful, but not inescapable or infinite or absurd, because their neutral game is weak enough that getting that grab in the first place should be a trial, and they should get a substantial reward for it. But this is thrown out the window against Bowser, whose main weakness is grabs in the first place, isn't hard to grab, and doesn't have a great neutral either. The punish is then extended by miles even when ICs have what is typically a massive disadvantage in having lost Nana.
I feel like "GOOD" IC players are lacking Representation. IC Hand offs are crazy good and the double projectiles beat out weaker projectiles just because there are two instead of one. Plus there are multiple Stylish hand off infinites that are not affected by the nerfs (like the footstool infinite). I played only 1 good ice climber player, but the things that he did to all my characters makes me firmly place him in A tier.


Whoever has 4th port doesn't take knockback when a grenade/mine breaks up a throw.

On the topic of grenades, from what I've seen there are still very few people actively spacing their moves around grenades. It is fully possible to hit an aerial in a way that both hits snake and whiffs the grenade drop. Back in 3.02 when Raziek played Snake, i got in a habit of reacting to an aerial grenade pull with spaced bair as Ness, aiming at his feet with a FF, or a fair from Mario aiming at his head. Once I worked this into my game grenades were as much a "get out of combo free" move as Peach/Luigi nair.
You see, that is legitimate jank in my opinion and that should not be a thing. Also i will let you all know that olimar trashes snake because of how grenades work.
 
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If you guys could figure out making the grenade explode both people in a grab, that would be good.

As far as good ICs go, Phresh does some really good stuff, he's just such a ridiculous human being that I can't help but hate him.

Good ICs, idiot man.
 
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If you guys could figure out making the grenade explode both people in a grab, that would be good.

As far as good ICs go, Phresh does some really good stuff, he's just such a ridiculous human being that I can't help but hate him.

Good ICs, idiot man.
I feel like anyone who is good enough can make any character look good, maybe we should look at the Average player or the best of each character? I feel like IC are way better than people think.
 

_Chrome

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I feel like anyone who is good enough can make any character look good, maybe we should look at the Average player or the best of each character? I feel like IC are way better than people think.
That is a horrible idea. The point of a tier list is to measure a character's competitive viability at a top level. The average player is kind of subjective and the idea is flawed. It would really skew the representation of which characters are actually strong and which ones aren't. Characters like Sheik and Dedede and Bowser (easier characters to play) would become comparatively better to characters like Fox who are more difficult to use.
 

Phresh123

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If you guys could figure out making the grenade explode both people in a grab, that would be good.

As far as good ICs go, Phresh does some really good stuff, he's just such a ridiculous human being that I can't help but hate him.

Good ICs, idiot man.
Lmao hate me all you want my beliefs are still the same I can careless if you dont like me.

EDIT: As far as IC's goes, me and a couple other players represent them, but aside from Fumbles I think i'm they're biggest represenation now. After playing some of the best in my region, I've been able to understand alot about them. There limits, flaws and gains.

With such a low representation, many people think they are worse in the game. People simply aren't running into good IC's and judge. Its not a problem but I do think people should take into consideration that underused characters have lots of potential.

They're MU spread is so weird and do have alot of bad ones, but they can win! Gotta play it smart. Many things such as down throw down B is esapable. Due to the decline of mid stage infinite, this gives IC's different option going into grabs.

Boikos points compared to others are different widely because I play him frequently. Its a MU he knows and the potential they hold. Yeah they have some tough MU's but aside from Peach and Toon, the rest of the matches may be challenging but are winnable.

IC's are in a bad spot right now with little representation smh.
 
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Life

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There are a surprising number of ways to tweak intra-ICs mechanics, though: Nana's input lag (four frames in melee, six in brawl, dunno how many in PM but probably 4 cause melee), how close she stands to Popo, possibly some of her stats relative to Popo depending on how their character data is organized, how close she has to get to Popo before syncing, how effectively her AI recovers or DI's (or how aggressive she might get if given an opportunity for it), how high Belay sends each of them, and so forth.

I don't think balancing Ice Climbers is an impossible task. Killing someone with Belay at 80 is probably not the answer, though--also, dthrow chaingrabs into the ledge handoff isn't cool (looking at you, Bowser)--but they also need better anti-camping options if what I understand about their bad matchups is true (maybe rework ice blocks?).

It'll be a project, that's for sure.
 
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There are a surprising number of ways to tweak intra-ICs mechanics, though: Nana's input lag (four frames in melee, six in brawl, dunno how many in PM but probably 4 cause melee), how close she stands to Popo, possibly some of her stats relative to Popo depending on how their character data is organized, how close she has to get to Popo before syncing, how effectively her AI recovers or DI's (or how aggressive she might get if given an opportunity for it), how high Belay sends each of them, and so forth.

I don't think balancing Ice Climbers is an impossible task. Killing someone with Belay at 80 is probably not the answer, though--also, dthrow chaingrabs into the ledge handoff isn't cool (looking at you, Bowser)--but they also need better anti-camping options if what I understand about their bad matchups is true (maybe rework ice blocks?).

It'll be a project, that's for sure.

The infinites on big characters in mid stage is basically jank also. I spoke to fumbles and he has like 4 different ways to infinite a big character whenever he gets "bored". But on that note, he also handed off olimar (a small character) from 0 to 80-ish% and ended with a Fsmash which is also pretty lame. But at the same time, even with the infinite i would give bowser a 40-60 MU which is way better than you'd think considering one character has an infinite on the other.

Can we get rid of some of the weird jank? Balance IC's and take away their infinite? Make Snake's grenade blast both characters? Take away marthritus but make his tipper not kill at 50%? Weird things thats should not work only working because a character is "big"? Peach Down smash being silly 67% damage from a frame 5 move? MU Spread containing near unwinnable matches?
That is a horrible idea. The point of a tier list is to measure a character's competitive viability at a top level. The average player is kind of subjective and the idea is flawed. It would really skew the representation of which characters are actually strong and which ones aren't. Characters like Sheik and Dedede and Bowser (easier characters to play) would become comparatively better to characters like Fox who are more difficult to use.
Right but isn't Hbox the only reason Puff is not C tier on melee?
 
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PMDT Already took away there real infinite in 3.5!: http://www.gfycat.com/DefinitiveComplexLacewing

Ya tryna drain the character with nothing nah keep the infinites they have now because without that they really would be trash. There design is fine how it is as Hylian said no changes will be made.

Are ya Sure? Does fumbles have an account because i would love to tag him right now so he can gently tell you and ill quote "There is no infinite, but the set damage i can get before having to release is so much that ill end up killing you anyway"

That in my eyes is an infinite.

I played fumbles when 3.6 first came out and he did the infinite on me via footstooling me, then by handing me off, and some other weird way that i could not comprehend because i dont main IC. It exists on big characters.

Also i noticed you skimmed over the part where i said take away the infinite BUT Buff the other stuff.
 
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Yeah the players in the DK matchup thread all say that Spacie matchups are horrible, despite having an all but guaranteed 0-death on them.


I don't actually agree with them, but they highlight the stress of the neutral game.

The ledge handoffs aren't an infinite on nearly every character. Footstool handoffs eventually stop working.
 

Player -0

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T tasteless gentleman

I feel like you're trying to push for changes without a solid understanding of the game and/or its mechanics. I also think this should be avoided.

Not to say that people shouldn't be able to state their opinion but when trying to push for changes I think you should definitely know the game.

Also biased because I think you're trying to "normalize" the cast, something that I'm against.
 
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Are ya Sure? Does fumbles have an account because i would love to tag him right now so he can gently tell you and ill quote "There is no infinite, but the set damage i can get before having to release is so much that ill end up killing you anyway"

That in my eyes is an infinite.

Also i noticed you skimmed over the part where i said take away the infinite BUT Buff the other stuff.
Yeah the players in the DK matchup thread all say that Spacie matchups are horrible, despite having an all but guaranteed 0-death on them.


I don't actually agree with them, but they highlight the stress of the neutral game.

The ledge handoffs aren't an infinite on nearly every character. Footstool handoffs eventually stop working.
But they are infinites on some characters. Plus that 0-death with dk, isnt that stage dependent and cant the opponent at least Try and SDI somewhere else?

With IC, you cant DI, you cant do anything but wait for the hand off to be over with and hope your SDI is enough to not die.


T tasteless gentleman

I feel like you're trying to push for changes without a solid understanding of the game and/or its mechanics. I also think this should be avoided.

Not to say that people shouldn't be able to state their opinion but when trying to push for changes I think you should definitely know the game.

Also biased because I think you're trying to "normalize" the cast, something that I'm against.
Right but is it okay for IC to infinite hand off a character because they are "big"? I know the mechanic well enough to know that once im grabbed and start being handed off, this is nothing i can do to escape.
 
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Hylian

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Don't be within 30 units of the ledge while IC's are facing it and then they can't handoff?

Asking for changes when you admittedly know little is pointless. You want something changed because you don't like and/or understand it, as opposed to a logically based request.
 
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T tasteless gentleman

I feel like you're trying to push for changes without a solid understanding of the game and/or its mechanics. I also think this should be avoided.

Not to say that people shouldn't be able to state their opinion but when trying to push for changes I think you should definitely know the game.

Also biased because I think you're trying to "normalize" the cast, something that I'm against.
Right but is it okay for IC to infinite hand off a character because they are "big"? I know the mechanic well enough to know that once im grabbed and start being han
Don't be within 30 units of the ledge while IC's are facing it and then they can't handoff?

Asking for changes when you admittedly know little is pointless. You want something changed because you don't like and/or understand it, as opposed to a logically based request.


Some I notice no one tagged Fumbles yet. Now when you say 30 units, what is a unit exactly and why does that affect a hand off? Also is this including any ledge like platforms too? Because i am pretty sure fumbles got some middle stage hand offs but once again, since no one knows his tag we cant just ask the guy who spent his summer learning the hand off.


EDIT

I thought you were PMDT and actually knew the programming, now that i know you are a normal person who didnt program it, i feel better saying, that IC CAN hand off big character mid stage. Prove me wrong or Tag Fumbles.

*EDIT* also feel free to explain why a ledge SHOULD influence the use of an infinite? Like What is happening to make it be an infinite and why that is okay. (and the because "IC is Underused" is not a valid answer)
 
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Soft Serve

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Punishes by ledge are normally more severe? Getting thrown off ledge to gimp/edgeguard situation instead of a juggle or tech chase. I don't see why ics shouldn't get stronger throw combos in a riskier place on the stage. Also hylain is definitely the ics authority
 
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Punishes by ledge are normally more severe? Getting thrown off ledge to gimp/edgeguard situation instead of a juggle or tech chase. I don't see why ics shouldn't get stronger throw combos in a riskier place on the stage. Also hylain is definitely the ics authority
So If what your saying is correct, It would be reasonable for bowser to have an infinite tech chase with KK Dthrow?
Or Zard having an infinite with down throw on the ledge?
Or Ganon having some crazy chain grab near the ledge?


My issue is that its an infinite and Popo can stall until nana arrives if they are separated.

I dont care that they have it, they need it because they suck without it and i only faced Fumbles at weekly events and doubt ill face anyone that good without travelling. Its just the fact that its an infinite that only the user can mess up

Anyways, people seem to ignore that part where i said IC can hand off in mid stage on big characters.
Also Does fumbles even exist on these forums @Rizner ?
 
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Player -0

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I think you need to clarify what you mean by handoff. Handoffs imply going straight from being thrown into being grabbed. This can only be done by ledges as the 1 frame input for Nana's direction was changed afaik.

If you mean the footstool thing that's the footstool CG.

From what I understand anyway.
 
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I think you need to clarify what you mean by handoff. Handoffs imply going straight from being thrown into being grabbed. This can only be done by ledges as the 1 frame input for Nana's direction was changed afaik.

If you mean the footstool thing that's the footstool CG.

From what I understand anyway.

The footstool infinite, that works on big characters until death percent. Thanks for clarifying that because i feel like without that we were gonna get no where.
 

PlateProp

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Don't be within 30 units of the ledge while IC's are facing it and then they can't handoff?

Asking for changes when you admittedly know little is pointless. You want something changed because you don't like and/or understand it, as opposed to a logically based request.
Why does Nana still rubber band to popo while doing moves?
 

Soft Serve

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So If what your saying is correct, It would be reasonable for bowser to have an infinite tech chase with KK Dthrow?
Or Zard having an infinite with down throw on the ledge?
Or Ganon having some crazy chain grab near the ledge?


My issue is that its an infinite and Popo can stall until nana arrives if they are separated.

I dont care that they have it, they need it because they suck without it and i only faced Fumbles at weekly events and doubt ill face anyone that good without travelling. Its just the fact that its an infinite that only the user can mess up

Anyways, people seem to ignore that part where i said IC can hand off in mid stage on big characters.
Also Does fumbles even exist on these forums @Rizner ?
Bowser/zard/ganon do have more potent tech chases and punishes near the ledge, yes. No they don't have infinites but we're not talking about them having infinites. They do have more threatening grab conversions by the ledge, like the whole cast. ICs punish game is nearly all grab conversions, so by extention they should have stronger options in a situation where they are more likely to get gimped/Lose nana in 3 hits.

30 units is a measure of distance from the ledge.

I don't see what's wrong with ics having situational and difficult to execute infinites, even mid stage. Mashing out of the first grab is incredibly easy in pm if they do anything but throw immediately, meaning they have to already be desynched at low % or you have to be playing a character they can dthrow chain grab. It also requires nana to be alive and present. I don't see what's wrong with handoffs, Expecially because of how easy it is to separate and kill nana for most of the cast, and the fact sopo is probably the worst character in the game.

Fox has easier/less strict to execute infinites mid stage on most of the characters he can waveshine, people don't complain about that.
 

Soft Serve

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I don't mean cross up waveshine back and forth, that works on less characters. If you shine wd dash pivot shine you can get past marth and every character with lower traction than him (probably some with more, only tested it on marth for max distance) and do it again. There are many easier ways to do pivot down special in pm so it's actually viable and not a rediculous motion like in melee.
 
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