Tier List Speculation

[nimigoha]

Holy **** Pikachu's perfect waveland is sick.

This is the kind of crap that I'm disappointed I had to learn on my own.

Can you perfect waveland out of QAC?

EDIT: No I'm like 99% sure that was an idiotic question, the frame data on aerials like frame 7 (iirc) Bair is too many airborne frames for you to be close enough to perfect waveland.

 

[DrinkingFood]

i really dont think this is a good idea. this means that you randomly have to take extra time to pull a turnip, which is bassically the equivalent of sakurais random tripping in brawl. only if there was a way to select when you would take longer would this be a good idea.

lol what
Did you misunderstand the post? There is no randomness. I guess I forgot to make clear that she controls it by holding B for longer. I'm pretty sure I've posted the idea here before but I can't expect everyone to have read it

 

[Player -0]

Dafug. How do you even perfect waveland as Pika. It's like trying to perfect waveland with Pit.

Note - I haven't played P:M in about 2-3 weeks.

Also I feel like while MK has trouble popping up fast fallers at lower percent. This is migitated by his tech chase and stuff but makes MK's life a tad difficult vs. spacies

Idk, he still has jank throw powa so he can dunk people though.

 

[nimigoha]

What

lol what
Did you misunderstand the post? There is no randomness. I guess I forgot to make clear that she controls it by holding B for longer.

It's cool because it would function as her own sort of charge up move.

Like after killing their opponent, Samus or DK get to charge their move to be more powerful. Peach gets to start pulling as soon as they die and depending on how she kills them will get a better turnip for it. Sort of more incentive to edgeguard them until they're barely unable to recover and you give them hope and make them try, if you're good at judging you can pull a whole stitch by the time they start recovering (and eventually failing) to the point where they respawn.

The counterplay is of course to know when you're not making it back and dying faster so you can attempt to stop her turnip power level from growing too much before she pulls it.

Or incentive to kill off the top even.

It's an interesting idea.

 

[_Chrome]

Against spacies with MK you gotta play it like Sheik does in Melee with tech chases and edge guards. Thankfully it's not too too hard, but it can be challenging for sure. It's still a fun and volatile matchup imo, it's just pretty difficult for MU in that regard. A hard slightly disadvantageous MU.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Holy **** Pikachu's perfect waveland is sick.

This is the kind of crap that I'm disappointed I had to learn on my own.

Bruh.

Pit on the other hand couldn't PWL if his life depended on it, sorry Player -0 . His airdodge ECB movement is pretty unfavorable.

I'm convinced that luigi's crawl is a really useful thing but I don't know if I'm right yet because I'm too trash to actually prove it

I have a whisper in my ghost that using crawl to mask horizontal movement after/during a waveland by virtue of faking/not faking a wavescuttle (plus the obvious benefit of lowproing annoying stuff like samus missiles) is good

I guess it'd be possible to pressure someone's shield with a somewhat late bair (late enough that I can waveland) then waveland away while facing away then wavescuttle back and catch them with an intangible upsmash (this relies on them not grabbing me out of shield, but I can condition that relatively well enough by doing double aerials)

idk the game is fun the character is fun the possibilities are fun but I'm just really bad and too busy being a student

I keep meaning to reply to this and agree and I can do that now so I'm gonna do that now.

Yes, crawls are a really useful thing. Microspaced low-profile movement that buffers CC. Luigi and Squirtle also get nutty momentum shenanigans. **** is good but **** is not maylay so **** is verboten or something idk you're all nuts for not abusing crawls.

My Sheik buddy finally started to listen to what I've been saying about crawling and fighting him just got that little bit more annoying. There are a lot of characters that have to rely on risky/subpar options to deal with low hurtboxes in neutral, and those options are often mediocre against CC as well.

 

[nimigoha]

That Pit WL please why.

 

[Player -0]

I'll have to mess around with Pika's again once I play. I think I tried Pika's a couple times but it was meh so I meh'd back.

 

[Chevy]

Bruh. https://i.imgur.com/xBSDZ0u.jpg (This is the 3.6 updated version)

If Wolf doesn't get chaingrabbed as long, it's because of his extra weight making throw animations longer, not his gravity. (Although he may simply fall out of some regrabs that would work on Fox, too.)

Like Infinity said, Terminal Velocity /= Gravity. Fox has the highest gravity by a pretty wide margin.

 

[tavarner17]

That Pit WL please why.

^This. Especially when I see this:

Bruh. https://i.imgur.com/xBSDZ0u.jpg (This is the 3.6 updated version)

Showing that Pika and Pit have equal weight and fall speed, and then this:

Bruh.

Which shows that when falling from the same platform Pika can PWL and Pit can't... my pocket Pit is sad. That said, I won't complain about the SH, FH, or Jump to Platform stuff because Pika and Pit likely have different SH/FH heights. This data does make me want to beg PMDT to give Pit a better airdodge animation.

Also, seeing that Zelda can PWL basically anything makes me understand why PMDT are hesitant to giving her a longer waveland. My Zelda incorporates wavelands everywhere and mine aren't even close to perfect. The typical Zelda-main argument for giving her a longer waveland/wavedash is that its a way to buff her mobility, make her more accessible to other smashers, and it normalizes her movement options a bit. These are things that some Zelda mains think would make her better and get her more representation at the same time as reducing salt about her, since its a universal tech.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

It's cool because it would function as her own sort of charge up move.

Like after killing their opponent, Samus or DK get to charge their move to be more powerful. Peach gets to start pulling as soon as they die and depending on how she kills them will get a better turnip for it. Sort of more incentive to edgeguard them until they're barely unable to recover and you give them hope and make them try, if you're good at judging you can pull a whole stitch by the time they start recovering (and eventually failing) to the point where they respawn.

The counterplay is of course to know when you're not making it back and dying faster so you can attempt to stop her turnip power level from growing too much before she pulls it.

Or incentive to kill off the top even.

It's an interesting idea.

I dont know if a stitch face is on the same level as a charge punch or charge shot. I feel like good peach mains would abuse this hard unless stitch faces did...25% damage each hit? And even then, what is to stop peach from hitting you (or your shield) and then catching the turnip?

I like the idea until i think about how strong stitches are currently and the idea of dealing with 1 every new stock.

 

[Player -0]

Did anyone watch the RNG video? I'm down for that solution.

Either make the power curve difference much less for best and worst hammer/turnips or change probability of better but not stitch turnips.

Or implement mechanic so they're no longer RNG.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Did anyone watch the RNG video? I'm down for that solution.

Either make the power curve difference much less for best and worst hammer/turnips or change probability of better but not stitch turnips.

Or implement mechanic so they're no longer RNG.

How do we feel about olimar and luigi RNG?

I think luigi is good because you can Store it/See it amd it gets weaker when stored.

I think olimar's is bad because it plays against him entirely and affects his MU spread. Although I find it amusing when i get 3 purple.

 

[Boiko]

I think that Olimar's susceptibility to RNG is a bit overstated. I've never been in a position where I thought that my line up was costing me the game.

 

[nimigoha]

Opinions on changing Luigi's Misfire RNG to being like Waft? Keep current power, maybe have to rebalance charge time? Except no partial Misfire, it works the same as it does now but you flash green when you have a Misfire and you can still refrain from using it by holding R and using normal Missile.

 

[Player -0]

Putting waft and misfire together in the same paragraph:

Slowly decreasing waft power to certain point after it reaches max charge would be interesting.

One of the main purposes of waft is to force approaches. It does this to an extent. After this occurs Wario can use his 50-50s/whatever to smack you with it if he gets in.

This change would force Wario to know timing on waft (more than before) as to give Wario also an incentive to approach during timings where it'll pop. Also pressure to decision on whether to pop it at extreme percents (early/late) and recharge or get opportunity to use toned down version later.

Not saying this is necessary, just interesting topics. Would still like to know everyone's opinions.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I've talked about misfire before and I can't speak for all luigi mains but I know that at least some of them feel the way I feel about misfire

1. In PM, misfire is not a good killing move. yes it can kill people from a close distance, but that's not its primary purpose in the slightest.
2. misfire's kill power upon restore has been nerfed, making it even less relevant as a kill move
3. it moves slower than in melee, which means that it's easier to react to when used offensively
4. the slowing of misfire was meant as a nerf to its potential to be used as a kill move, which is not its primary purpose
5. MISFIRE'S BEST USE IS A RECOVERY MIXUP/TOOL
seriously this is so important, once luigi is offstage he shouldnt come back. regular missile has so much endlag and so does rising cyclone, you should always be hit out of it if you're past the distance where you can sweetspot to ledge with a side b. misfire is best used as luigi's only tool to recover high
6. in terms of recovery, a planned misfire is far more useful than a randy misfire, and in the current game a stored misfire has so much less damage than a random one, thus damage is not important to misfire
7. but, misfire is still a random mechanic which has had its speed decreased, which causes both frustration for luigi mains and opponents

so, with this in mind, misfire's speed should be returned to melee's but set to a non-random system. I would love to be able to count on a misfire like on a golden bullet in a six-shooter. I want to be guaranteed a misfire once in ever six side-bs, but still be able to store it.
I don't need misfire damage, it could very well be decreased to the same amount of damage as a regular side-b.

there, now luigi has a recovery tool that is more intuitive for both the player and the opponent, and stupid randomness is removed

plus dthrow to misfire is a guaranteed kill on like everyone on yoshi's at 40 percent, and luigi can get a grab so easily. that's stupid.

 

[G13_Flux]

lol what
Did you misunderstand the post? There is no randomness. I guess I forgot to make clear that she controls it by holding B for longer. I'm pretty sure I've posted the idea here before but I can't expect everyone to have read it

After reading it it wasn't clear that you meant for it to be controlled by holding b longer. But I understand what you mean now and I can see it as a good idea.

 

[JOE!]

I beleive DrinkingFood also had the idea of Judgement going up by 1 per hit as well, originally.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I've talked about misfire before and I can't speak for all luigi mains but I know that at least some of them feel the way I feel about misfire

1. In PM, misfire is not a good killing move. yes it can kill people from a close distance, but that's not its primary purpose in the slightest.
2. misfire's kill power upon restore has been nerfed, making it even less relevant as a kill move
3. it moves slower than in melee, which means that it's easier to react to when used offensively
4. the slowing of misfire was meant as a nerf to its potential to be used as a kill move, which is not its primary purpose
5. MISFIRE'S BEST USE IS A RECOVERY MIXUP/TOOL
seriously this is so important, once luigi is offstage he shouldnt come back. regular missile has so much endlag and so does rising cyclone, you should always be hit out of it if you're past the distance where you can sweetspot to ledge with a side b. misfire is best used as luigi's only tool to recover high
6. in terms of recovery, a planned misfire is far more useful than a randy misfire, and in the current game a stored misfire has so much less damage than a random one, thus damage is not important to misfire
7. but, misfire is still a random mechanic which has had its speed decreased, which causes both frustration for luigi mains and opponents

so, with this in mind, misfire's speed should be returned to melee's but set to a non-random system. I would love to be able to count on a misfire like on a golden bullet in a six-shooter. I want to be guaranteed a misfire once in ever six side-bs, but still be able to store it.
I don't need misfire damage, it could very well be decreased to the same amount of damage as a regular side-b.

there, now luigi has a recovery tool that is more intuitive for both the player and the opponent, and stupid randomness is removed

plus dthrow to misfire is a guaranteed kill on like everyone on yoshi's at 40 percent, and luigi can get a grab so easily. that's stupid.

I like the idea of misfire not killing. Imo luigis who do use misfire to kill off of tech reads/roll reads is something I was never impressed by since it takes away from the fundamentals of the character (which is his movement and mixups from his movement). And rando misfire kills when the opponent is edge guarding correctly is also dumb. Even with the storing nerf, one or two stores can still kill pretty early. So yeah I'm all for this idea.
Also down throw to misfire does not work if the opponent dis correctly and techs/jumps afterwards, even on yoshis story.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I love the judgement and chargeable turnip idea. Someone make a build like this which also includes the flying zardthrower pls ty no pay.

 

[zman804]

Let's theorycraft for a minute, because I have no idea how to win this. At Rewired, AppleSmaush (Samus) played Sanchaz (Falcon,Fox main). Apple 3 stocked his Falcon game 1, he then went Sheik games 3 and 2 and platformed and needle camped her for 16 minutes. What can Samus even do in that situation if the Sheik is dedicated fully to running away? I've been thinking about this for a while and cannot think of much. Please help.

 

[Saproling]

Let's theorycraft for a minute, because I have no idea how to win this. At Rewired, AppleSmaush (Samus) played Sanchaz (Falcon,Fox main). Apple 3 stocked his Falcon game 1, he then went Sheik games 3 and 2 and platformed and needle camped her for 16 minutes. What can Samus even do in that situation if the Sheik is dedicated fully to running away? I've been thinking about this for a while and cannot think of much. Please help.

Characters with slow projectiles cant honestly do much in that situation like Ivy cant throw RL against good Shieks because they will just throw a needle and snuff it out all you can do is try and make reads to get something started its all kinds of ass.
Stop stealing my fap material.

 

[G13_Flux]

samus can crawl under sheiks needs (at least grounded ones). aerial needs are at a 45 degree angle downwards, so i dont see any reason that the samus player couldnt work out some angle of homing missles in conjuntion with a grounded approach aerial nair on the platform camping shiek. samus isnt all that slow. maybe a bit slower than shiek, but she should still have enough mobility options to work her way towards a platform and pressure airspace decently quick enough.

 

[Life]

Samus has a zair that is probably pretty good for poking people she can't easily reach. (Have fun dealing with top platform camping, of course.)

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Platform camping against Samus as Sheik is generally what you're supposed to do. I remember watching a vod by Reslived titled "Is Samus the Answer to 20XX?" where he analyzed three games of Samus vs Fox and pointed out the flaws in each of their game plans. There was a point where he spent a lot of time talking about the effectiveness of platform camping agaisnt Samus. She's really good at dealing with stuff head on, but not from above. I'd link it but I'm on mobile right now so it'd be a little awkward. It's a long video but I'd recommend watching at least parts of it anyways.

 

[Jamble]

I really am not sure I agree with saying that Samus has issues against targets that aren't head on. In fact, most of my approaches with Samus, I try to come in at an angle and hit with the edge of one of my wider hitboxes, because it's honestly one of the few ways you're actually going to land a hit on somebody who knows what they're doing without something like a Dsmash or Dthrow setup because of how predictable all of her attacks are. For instance, I can use ice fair to hit somebody directly above me (not just diagonally from me) on the top platform of battlefield with a single jump. While I generally wouldn't do that, I feel like it demonstrates some of the interesting hitboxes on some of her attacks. I gotta run, but in general I think people think Samus's game relies more on missile spam than it actually does. I'll probably form a more cohesive post later or something.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

The thing is, if an opponent is on a platform above Samus, let's take top of BF for example, they can react to the initial jump and evade (and potentially take stage positioning from you). Same thing while Samus is in shield, being above her far enough such that nair/uair/ub oos are punishable commitments is safe.

 

[Chevy]

Samus has very good options if the opponent is on the platform directly above her. Top platform, on the other hand, is a pain in the ass. Luckily, if Samus has the lead she doesn't have to worry about that. And if the opponent wants to give her a charge shot that's fine as well. You can run off mid plat and poke with DJ up-air, shoot projectiles from the side, or come up with rising f-air. Shield beats all of this, so every now and then you'd probably have to commit to an AI grab or some bomb pressure from underneath. If they are just jumping away then focus on taking the stage position and try and get a read to hit them off stage. It's really just a big problem against like DDD.

 

[Ripple]

if someone is trying to platform camp a samus, samus mains get to keep charging charge shot and get to keep doing it unti people stop camping.

platform camping samus isn't a thing even in fire mode.

also, serious question. do ZSS mains not know they can edge cancel their reel in lag by holding back at the right time? I've never seen anyone do it and I did it on my first try seeing if it was actually possible

 

[Life]

In theory, a lot of characters can ledgehop bair and catch the tetherer before they even land, right?

That said, I have to admit I had wondered if that edge cancel was possible, but seeing as I don't play any tether characters seriously and my region doesn't punish tethers very well from what I've seen, I never felt it necessary to find out.

Also, the tetherer can Amsah tech if the enemy has a sufficiently low-angled bair (as our local ZSS had been trying to master vs. my Pit a while back).

 

[Jamble]

Yeah, you'd have to at least go a full jump which again, isn't a good idea. I just never have had an issue with somebody trying to platform camp me as Samus, and even though I can't reach the top plat quickly to approach somebody, they're restricting their own options against me by being on the top plat too. I have the luxury of pacing myself. I'm a lot more worried about somebody being under me as Samus than I am about somebody being out of a zone I immediately threaten, but maybe that just me. I also don't play against people at as high of a skill level as a lot of people here do.

 

[BluntedMask]

So quick question. Is Meta knight generally accepted as being top 10 or even top 5 material?

His amazing dthrow enables reliable reaction tech chases with regrabs/dsmash/dair. His shield pressure is pretty good as well, with dair/bair/nair being safe on shield with the proper timing and spacing. Superb dash dance coupled with his speed and small body make his movement amazing.

Also set ups into downbs either as a combo ender or used in a tech chase situation, as IDC is a 7 frame move iirc.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

So quick question. Is Meta knight generally accepted as being top 10 or even top 5 material?

yes

strongbad has said top 3 at some point

 

[_Chrome]

I thought based on the posts that a few of us have made here already coupled with the supreme frame data and generous MU spread he possesses that it would be a no brainer he's top 5 material. I consider him to be #3 or #4 at this point (about Diddy's caliber) with characters like Ike, Falco, and ROB for example following them.

If you're asking a quick question for a quick answer, the answer is yes. You seem to have done some research though, so is there anything in particular you'd like to know?

P.S. Just because he's good doesn't need he needs nerfs. This is preemptive for the people who will post on here complaining.

Also why can't Falco have his Melee dash speed/dair/lasers. Bring back 2/3 of those things please and thank you. (Okay maybe not the dair. Idk.)

 

[nimigoha]

Falco should have his Melee dash speed, don't see it listed as changed anywhere.

He dashes with Brawl's dash animation though, which looks slower since it isn't "I'm an anime ninja running really fast!" with arms flailing behind him.

But yeah like 95% sure it's the same speed.

 

[Swigo]

On the topic of MetaKnight I have a relatively specific question, Guru Kid was using a lot of DC as a quick movement option and to get down from juggles, is this a common tactic? I don't recall having ever seen other metaknights using it, is there just a simple counter play and he was exploiting lack of matchup knowledge? Sorry if this is an ignorant question, I just thought it was neat and didn't see any mention of it on the Meta Knight boards

For reference the set of Jaden v Guru Kid is around 2:50 in the hitbox vod

 

[prem]

Falco should have his Melee dash speed, don't see it listed as changed anywhere.

He dashes with Brawl's dash animation though, which looks slower since it isn't "I'm an anime ninja running really fast!" with arms flailing behind him.

But yeah like 95% sure it's the same speed.

it definitely feels slower but could just be the game differences that aren't particularly important.

also while I'm fine with falco's dair getting nerfed because i agree it was ridiciulous can the hitbox at least be on his feet and not his shins after it shrinks, that all I want changed for him. maybe like barely above his feet so he still loses to things, just not in the middle of his shins

 

[_Chrome]

On the topic of MetaKnight I have a relatively specific question, Guru Kid was using a lot of DC as a quick movement option and to get down from juggles, is this a common tactic? I don't recall having ever seen other metaknights using it, is there just a simple counter play and he was exploiting lack of matchup knowledge? Sorry if this is an ignorant question, I just thought it was neat and didn't see any mention of it on the Meta Knight boards

For reference the set of Jaden v Guru Kid is around 2:50 in the hitbox vod

I love using the empty DC as a quick movement option. It's a pretty ambiguous decision, as the opponent doesn't know whether you'll strike, vanish forwards, backwards, in place, or behind them even. Plus the options after empty vanishing in front or behind someone... MMMM so good.

As far as using it to escape juggles, that seems pretty niche/situational. It's definitely possible though, but I'd only use it to teleport to the ground to escape all of the lag and loss of jumps involved with teleporting in the air. It also has 20 frames of landing lag, unlike the teleport onto the ground, which if I'm not mistaken has normal landing lag, 4 frames. (Please someone let me know if I'm right or not. I can't find this specific data on the Frame Data Thread and I don't have access to the system when I'm at school.) Using empty DCs is pretty much my style with the character.

 

[PlateProp]

I thought based on the posts that a few of us have made here already coupled with the supreme frame data and generous MU spread he possesses that it would be a no brainer he's top 5 material. I consider him to be #3 or #4 at this point (about Diddy's caliber) with characters like Ike, Falco, and ROB for example following them.

If you're asking a quick question for a quick answer, the answer is yes. You seem to have done some research though, so is there anything in particular you'd like to know?

P.S. Just because he's good doesn't need he needs nerfs. This is preemptive for the people who will post on here complaining.

Also why can't Falco have his Melee dash speed/dair/lasers. Bring back 2/3 of those things please and thank you. (Okay maybe not the dair. Idk.)

i dunno man, the weight buff was pretty dumb because cc

so was giving him marth and roy's dtilt in one dtilt

but that aint none of my buisness because i'm not pmdt