Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Really? It looks fine to me. Maybe you're trying to fast-fall too early? If not, remember that Peach fast-falling doesn't look that much more impressive than Peach just falling unless the distance is large. You might have to do something like jump off Temple if you want to notice anything really significant.
SW isn't Canadian, I believe he's from Washington. I'm also sure Weon-X has a more impressive record than Alphicans, considering he's #1 for the Ontario PM PR and #2 for the Melee PR and has taken games (and possibly sets?) off KirbyKaze in Melee.
I'm not a Peach player lol. Specifically in Melee Peach can fast fall during her air dodge or something like that. She can't in PM, Bladewise complains about it and Silent Wolf laughs about it.
as I said
Yeah in testing I can't find a difference either, so it's probably the same. BW is insistent that he can't escape up-throw up-air anymore though, says there's more hitstun or something. Doesn't really make any sense, but it's a matchup he plays every week in both games so I'd trust that something is up. Definitely could just be PM visual cues tricking him up though, it seem escapable in Debug mode.
Only if we give Mewtwo a crawl
Canada has Weon X who is currently dominating the Ontario scene but the ranked players are getting closer and closer to his level.
Get'em to re-test it.
This is what I thought.
Quebec PMing at all or just Ont?
DrinkingFood
I'm pretty sure we're familiar with the absolute opposite regions. Like PERFECTLY opposite. lolTruth
but... Bowser
Tru dat to mewtwo
She can kill if she gets a hits, and has a threatening area around her to make those hits possible in some ways.
Was talking about this elsewhere.
I always find it so funny that wolf is consistently placed as lower than fox and falco on tier lists when he has the advantages of both with very few of their weaknesses
We can debate about whether or not Fox is the best character or not all day but that doesn't change the fact that he still, by a large margin, has the most tournament wins. It's been that way even since 3.0.
Then why do those same melee players just better than us not get the same results with marth, sheik, jiggs, peach, and more importantly falco?
Nor really. Wolf has to play honest in neutral since laser doesn't command all the space that falco and foxes does, he lacks persistent, high priority, long lasting hitboxes (sex kicks), and his attacks all have some form of counterplay. That isn't to say he isn't strong, But he definitely has weaknesses. He reminds me of fukua and ryu. Hes super well rounded, and his strength just comes from adaptability, not ant real over specialization. Though like fukua, hes a little too well rounded making him fairly strong, especially in this enviroment.
The next point someone is going to say is that you had to go to literally the best player of the other character's main, while so many pm tourneys are won by Jane doe with fox. The followup rebuttal is that many of those players were small statistical outliers compared to the monopoly on wins that is fox, and that ppmd is good enough to win some melee tourneys with pichu, and as such would skew results if he was included. You did bring up valid points however,and if they won in 3.0 that would be far more credible to your claim fox is fine than if they won tourneys vs the nerfed 3.5 cast. Thanks for the input {also when saying someone won tourniesits best to name them, otherwise pessimist will believe the talent pool was low.)
And funnily enough, most of these characters are or already were pretty good in comparison to the rest of the cast prior to the normalization. Spacies and swordies were widely seen as very good, alongside ROB, Diddy, and Falcon.
Overall, most characters have less frames of vulnerability on tech rolls and spotdodges. Take Bowser for example, he had like... 18 frames of vulnerability after rolling forward or backward, now he has 12 either direction, so you have to be 6 frames quicker to achieve the same result.@NWRL
how did tech chasing become stricter? Some characters getting standard spotdodges? Also, Squirtle is amazing at tech chasing and can set it up off of bubble, but he also gets tech chases absurdly hard.
vist won the first 3.02 tournament on record with luigi, his melee main
Tech options weren't changed at all, just rolls and spotdodges. Bowser got his tech rolls buffed in movement, but every character has the same vulnerability in tech rolls/tech in place.
Well I feel silly then, oops
Got ya, yea it appears we are arguing 2 different sides of it. Yours is that fox has the largest group of melee players, and that melee players have the most fundamentally sound talent to do well at a tournament. Where as I was arguing that the reason there are so many pm foxes for increased likelihood of getting results, is that the good options available to this character compared to the rest of the cast are more numerous than any list of con's that come with being fox. Melee elites are notably more talented than avg pm players, but only a few mains of other characters have had tourney success, and yet the pocket fox of someone that does well in melee is still good enough to get by, without even having to know what options the other character has just because fox has the potential to make their options not relevant.
I read this often and the people that say this never go in-depth as to why. They never analyze gameplay and establish that the decision making or micro-level gameplay of high level Melee players far exceed that of our high and top level PM-specific players. It's just "Fox is really developed, Melee players are better," and that's the end of that. Shallow argument with neither demonstrable nor observable evidence, doesn't establish any new or interesting ideas.
I noticed you have change your flair to MK and I'm assuming/hoping you're playing him at Paragon. Just curious on what your current opinions are on his tier list placement. To me he is like Shiek with Marth's neutral and extremely good, easily the second best character behind Fox.
I think Zelda right now is generally not understood, at least her nuances and how her mechanics function on more than just a general level. I think that she is somewhere in the bottom half just due to a few matchups (fox, shiek, mewtwo, falcon), but overall her power and balance is in an ok spot. She isn't useless, and she doesn't really need to dominate. She has issues recovering (possibly the least exploited by other players due to lack of knowledge) and no real combo-escape tools, but those aren't game-breaking weaknesses necessarily. I personally don't like the current dins mechanic in terms of design, but it's pretty decent in some matchups and can be used in complex ways if the opponent doesn't force you out of it and isn't a fox/falcon/sonic. As Nausicaa mentioned, she's different than others in what she does and what she wants to do. She creates pressure through positioning moreso than movement or attacks, and can often hit really hard if opponents mess up or get called out on an option.
I feel similarly to you about the top tiers in this game. Am I the only one that finds it unfortunate that the best characters in melee, the best character in brawl, the former best character in smash 4, and a character specifically designed to play like the best characters in melee are most likely the best characters in this game. I feel like this was inevitable, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.
What are you talking about?
Yes, results suggest tiers. When we have enough data points, we find that they indicate trends, and we look at those characters and try to figure out just how good they are. Of course, we as a community have historically looked to high level players and analytical minds in order to interpret results, as if it were just a matter of results we'd put all tournaments into a program and calculate tiers and be done with that. Those people have determined some cases to be outliers, like when single players that perform significantly better than everyone else with the character, this can be attributed mostly to player skill. But dozens of data points indicating the same thing is not an outlier, it denotes a trend. We've certainly come to the same conclusion with fewer data points in the past.
