Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

Umbreon doesn't accept donations.

Edit: So I like comboing Bowser in training mode because it's kind of fun for trying out new characters. Is there something about Bowser I don't know that allows him to only put a hitbox on one side of his Fortress?

http://imgur.com/Z2akW9Y

that's an issue with debug mode. The game can only display so many graphical effects at once. With PK thunder out, that limit is exceeded

 

[Styro]

that's an issue with debug mode. The game can only display so many graphical effects at once. With PK thunder out, that limit is exceeded

That is really cool. I never realized that.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Sooo, Fox.
The problem I have with Fox is how he is amazing at everything. Best defensive options in the game besides maybe Bowser's OOS. Best pressure. Amazing at killing. Amazing camping game. Amazing aggro where he just runs you over with shine nairs and nair shines. Amazing ability to stuff approaches, A really good recovery that can be angled or shortened and has tons of distance and so little lag that it often requires a read to punish.

Honestly Fox just needs one or two of these areas severely nerfed, here are my opinions on which ones should be nerfed.
Amazing

Who here likes really campy fox? Yeah no one, who likes hype fox shield pressure and raw speed? Exactly, let's make Fox into a hyper aggressive pressure based character, nerf lasers and the priority on things like Bair, Utilt and the like that makes him impossible to approach.

Then make his shine cc able so that his game requires some mixups instead of just auto piloting while stoned and drunk and nair shining until uspsmash percent.

Okay I voiced my opinion, what do you all think of it?

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Why do people seem to have a need to nerf fox over and over, he's more or less fine the way he is.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Why do people seem to have a need to nerf fox over and over, he's more or less fine the way he is.

have you read the last three pages or are you just ignoring them and asserting your opinion

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ TheoryofSmaug Lasers are only really a factor in matchups with slow characters. He can already beat those characters with raw speed but doesn't have to because lasers are just easier. Lasers have already been nerfed and do little damage at the distances they are relevant (1 damage per laser, any closer and the other character will be close enough to threaten your space unless they are basically jiggs who has no burst reach [even DACUS hardly goes anywhere as far as burst reach options go]). In matchups with faster characters lasers are hardly important at all, because it gives the other player opportunity to take space from fox, which actually matters vs another fast character.

I still think I stand by fox losing his easy kill conversions. If fox goes from being able to waveshine upsmash for kills confirmed from an almost riskless shine, or shine gimps (which are still extremely lethal), or waveshine grab upthrow upair; to actually having to take a risk to reliably convert a punishment/percent advantage to a kill, then he gains numerous openings where a failed risk can become a stock on the opposing end, or big damage which can later become a stock. And if the fox attempts to take little-to-no risks he yields very low stock taking ability. I see a character like ZSS who rules neutral in a similar fashion to fox, why does nobody think she's absurd? She has to take risks to take stocks. She only sets up perfect punishments situations off perfect openings, which require a big risk to acquire. You can run in dsmash and try and catch somebody DDing too aggressively, and if she's already built up some damage, she can convert that dsmash into an upair to set up for a fair, or she can charge an fsmash, or she can back air, etc. And if she doesn't have that damage, it probably will be converted just to that damage and not an actual kill, meaning she needs more risk yet again. But if the opponent goes in over the dsmash with a SH approach or something, or goes in just before it or just after it, she's eating a big punishment. I don't see why fox shouldn't be designed this way. All the things that make fox fun get retained, but the things that feel like "Man this character is cheating" or "Man, I feel like I just got cheated" AKA dying at 90 to the fastest character in the game's OoS options, or dying at near-0 to a single two offstage shines are in fact bull****. And I don't really say it as a knee-jerk reaction or long-standing salt or anything; because these aspects of fox don't cost me games personally. I don't really lose to foxes, not since I actually got good at the game. Our best foxes in state can't beat me, westballz and Mojo failed, I hope to prove it more-so by trouncing lucky in a couple weeks (I hope we meet in bracket). It just seems odd to me that the character who has to take the least risks to set-up a character for meeting his win condition (taking their stock) also doesn't have to take any big risks to close-out their win condition.

Also, I don't think he needs total nerfs and nothing else
because I know somebody's gonna come in here (as of typing this, somebody already did lmao) and be like "fox is fine" despite the number of tournies he wins in every patch and the clear advantages he has over every character on top of being good at everything
getting back to point, I don't think he needs strictly nerfs. He can get some buffs too. In fact it's hard to straight up nerf something about a character in terms of power without buffing it too. Make upsmash weaker? Now it combos for longer. But if he saw a better fair, a better dthrow, and just kept a low kill ability, he could see partially compensatory buffs and still become a reasonable character overall. And hell, who knows if fox mains wouldn't like to see some cool new things on their character. Mew2King doesn't count. Don't ask him for his opinions.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

There will always be a top character who will be seen as unreasonable in this game, people will asks for nerfs said nerfs may happen and as a result the next strongest character will be seen as unreasonable and so on.

 

[MrLul]

fox is fine

Then make his shine cc able so that his game requires some mixups instead of just auto piloting while stoned and drunk and nair shining until uspsmash percent.

Okay I voiced my opinion, what do you all think of it?

what did i just read

 

[42rockjock]

I feel like the nerfs that the PMDT have given Fox have been good. He doesn't have invincibility on shine, no more stupid sakurai combos, he has PAL up-smash, 20 frames of landing lag on his up-b, and jab up-smash was nerfed as well. What more do people want??

 

[Yung Mei]

You ever wonder why we have so many successful GnW mains?
Seriously it's an infestation, send help.

rofl theres on like 3-4 that are actually good tho (also i agree)

(also ur da bess)

 

[Akhenderson]

I feel like the nerfs that the PMDT have given Fox have been good. He doesn't have invincibility on shine, no more stupid sakurai combos, he has PAL up-smash, 20 frames of landing lag on his up-b, and jab up-smash was nerfed as well. What more do people want??

Either have Uthrow -> Uair kill way later or easier to SDI out of. That's really the only thing I'd like.

 

[Boiko]

Let's give Sheik back her 50/50 DI mix up that still sets up into an edge guard or kill at 90% but make sure that Ness can't get anything more than a fair off of his throw. Also, make his grab range tiny.

I really wish that something different was done with Sheik's throws.

 

[MrLul]

Let's give Sheik back her 50/50 DI mix up that still sets up into an edge guard or kill at 90% but make sure that Ness can't get anything more than a fair off of his throw. Also, make his grab range tiny.

I really wish that something different was done with Sheik's throws.

Yeah Ness' punish game is so bad, I never get 0 to deathed by Ness ever. Shiek is too good, her throws def aren't reactable

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Let's give Sheik back her 50/50 DI mix up that still sets up into an edge guard or kill at 90% but make sure that Ness can't get anything more than a fair off of his throw. Also, make his grab range tiny.

I really wish that something different was done with Sheik's throws.

Or maybe make ness's throws better, instead

 

[42rockjock]

Either have Uthrow -> Uair kill way later or easier to SDI out of. That's really the only thing I'd like.

Up air killing later sounds reasonable

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I really wish my idiot casual friends would stop thinking Ness is good when they literally can't beat me with Ness no matter which of my characters I pick. [I dabble in 5 but I have never put serious time into anyone besides Ike.]

Also I love DrinkingFood.

@ TheoryofSmaug Lasers are only really a factor in matchups with slow characters. He can already beat those characters with raw speed but doesn't have to because lasers are just easier. Lasers have already been nerfed and do little damage at the distances they are relevant (1 damage per laser, any closer and the other character will be close enough to threaten your space unless they are basically jiggs who has no burst reach [even DACUS hardly goes anywhere as far as burst reach options go]). In matchups with faster characters lasers are hardly important at all, because it gives the other player opportunity to take space from fox, which actually matters vs another fast character.

I still think I stand by fox losing his easy kill conversions. If fox goes from being able to waveshine upsmash for kills confirmed from an almost riskless shine, or shine gimps (which are still extremely lethal), or waveshine grab upthrow upair; to actually having to take a risk to reliably convert a punishment/percent advantage to a kill, then he gains numerous openings where a failed risk can become a stock on the opposing end, or big damage which can later become a stock. And if the fox attempts to take little-to-no risks he yields very low stock taking ability. I see a character like ZSS who rules neutral in a similar fashion to fox, why does nobody think she's absurd? She has to take risks to take stocks. She only sets up perfect punishments situations off perfect openings, which require a big risk to acquire. You can run in dsmash and try and catch somebody DDing too aggressively, and if she's already built up some damage, she can convert that dsmash into an upair to set up for a fair, or she can charge an fsmash, or she can back air, etc. And if she doesn't have that damage, it probably will be converted just to that damage and not an actual kill, meaning she needs more risk yet again. But if the opponent goes in over the dsmash with a SH approach or something, or goes in just before it or just after it, she's eating a big punishment. I don't see why fox shouldn't be designed this way. All the things that make fox fun get retained, but the things that feel like "Man this character is cheating" or "Man, I feel like I just got cheated" AKA dying at 90 to the fastest character in the game's OoS options, or dying at near-0 to a single two offstage shines are in fact bull****. And I don't really say it as a knee-jerk reaction or long-standing salt or anything; because these aspects of fox don't cost me games personally. I don't really lose to foxes, not since I actually got good at the game. Our best foxes in state can't beat me, westballz and Mojo failed, I hope to prove it more-so by trouncing lucky in a couple weeks (I hope we meet in bracket). It just seems odd to me that the character who has to take the least risks to set-up a character for meeting his win condition (taking their stock) also doesn't have to take any big risks to close-out their win condition.

Also, I don't think he needs total nerfs and nothing else
because I know somebody's gonna come in here (as of typing this, somebody already did lmao) and be like "fox is fine" despite the number of tournies he wins in every patch and the clear advantages he has over every character on top of being good at everything
getting back to point, I don't think he needs strictly nerfs. He can get some buffs too. In fact it's hard to straight up nerf something about a character in terms of power without buffing it too. Make upsmash weaker? Now it combos for longer. But if he saw a better fair, a better dthrow, and just kept a low kill ability, he could see partially compensatory buffs and still become a reasonable character overall. And hell, who knows if fox mains wouldn't like to see some cool new things on their character. Mew2King doesn't count. Don't ask him for his opinions.

This guy *gets* me.

 

[Akhenderson]

Yeah Ness' punish game is so bad, I never get 0 to deathed by Ness ever. Shiek is too good, her throws def aren't reactable

Sheik V Ness, if Sheik Dthrows Ness, the Ness player only gets 14 frames to react to dthrow while bthrow is 15 frames on reaction. Considering the average human reaction time is about 20 frames, I think it's safe to assume they're unreactable.

 

[MrLul]

Sheik V Ness, if Sheik Dthrows Ness, the Ness player only gets 14 frames to react to dthrow while bthrow is 15 frames on reaction. Considering the average human reaction time is about 20 frames, I think it's safe to assume they're unreactable.

I can react on netplay

 

[Boiko]

Yeah Ness' punish game is so bad, I never get 0 to deathed by Ness ever. Shiek is too good, her throws def aren't reactable

I guess you DON'T SDI everything then.

 

[MrLul]

I guess you DON'T SDI everything then.

You can SDI to get out of pretty much anything, not only Ness stuff.

 

[Manaconda]

Sheik V Ness, if Sheik Dthrows Ness, the Ness player only gets 14 frames to react to dthrow while bthrow is 15 frames on reaction. Considering the average human reaction time is about 20 frames, I think it's safe to assume they're unreactable.

Not to say that it's easy or that I care about what Sheik gets off grabs, but they aren't unreactable. 333 ms (20 frames) seems a lot larger than the average reaction time of a smasher. Professional CS:GO players for example definitely react to things and make decisions faster than 14/15 frames.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I feel like the nerfs that the PMDT have given Fox have been good. He doesn't have invincibility on shine, no more stupid sakurai combos, he has PAL up-smash, 20 frames of landing lag on his up-b, and jab up-smash was nerfed as well. What more do people want??

We want things nerfed that actually matter

fox is fine

Fox isn't fine
see, I can do it too

There will always be a top character who will be seen as unreasonable in this game, people will asks for nerfs said nerfs may happen and as a result the next strongest character will be seen as unreasonable and so on.

that is not necessarily true. Right now, nobody agrees universally on who the next best character after fox is. If fox gets brought down to the level of other commonly agreed top tens (read: actually having losing matchups) then there will not necessarily have to be a character who is agreed upon to be "The Best™". And if there were to be a character like that, there's still no reason to believe they would present as big a gap as fox does atm.

Not to say that it's easy or that I care about what Sheik gets off grabs, but they aren't unreactable. 333 ms (20 frames) seems a lot larger than the average reaction time of a smasher. Professional CS:GO players for example definitely react to things and make decisions faster than 14/15 frames.

oh lawdy are we really going to have this discussion again

 

[Akhenderson]

Not to say that it's easy or that I care about what Sheik gets off grabs, but they aren't unreactable. 333 ms (20 frames) seems a lot larger than the average reaction time of a smasher. Professional CS:GO players for example definitely react to things and make decisions faster than 14/15 frames.

Looks like that's NOT average then. Silly me~

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

the only good ness main I know irl says that "ness is bad and like nothing that he does should work but everyone else is bad so I can get away with being bad in neutral"

 

[jtm94]

Sheik V Ness, if Sheik Dthrows Ness, the Ness player only gets 14 frames to react to dthrow while bthrow is 15 frames on reaction. Considering the average human reaction time is about 20 frames, I think it's safe to assume they're unreactable.

Yes speculation is 90% opinion, but please stop spreading false information.
People have said her throws are 12, 13, 14, and 15 frames. Someone is wrong and anyone with PM can go into it and find out which frames are distinguishable and which aren't.

Average human reaction time as by Google, which you either neglected to use or did bad math on, will give you a median reaction time of 12.9 frames. This is of the base population and not people who are trying to play smash competitively which can skew things in either direction because of a different base population. This is reacting to a simple visual stimulus. I have said this before and I will again. Even if her throws are as fast as 12 frames, the median reaction time is 12.9, meaning some people can actually react to that. I know of people who "claim" to be able to react to it, but that means literately nothing I am aware. Smash is also contextual and you can adapt to habits as well which can give you insight on the next throw based on numerous aspects of the game.

Also nobody constantly SDIs everything. Melee players still miss SDI on Fox uair. Few people SDI out of Ness or GnW's combos.

 

[Manaconda]

oh lawdy are we really going to have this discussion again

I forgot about that, though I was never part of that discussion. Forget that I wrote anything.

Edit: Too late

Also nobody constantly SDIs everything. Melee players still miss SDI on Fox uair. Few people SDI out of Ness or GnW's combos.

To be fair, it's MUCH easier to SDI a multihit move that's out for 14 frames and gives lots of hitstun than a move that is out very quickly and only gives 6 frames of hitstun. I know people SDI out of Peach's dair all the time without that much practice, while a lot of effort is put into SDIing Fox's uair because it's so potent and common.

And @ Akhenderson is right. Dthrow is 14 frames, Bthrow is 15 frames, but I think it's best if everybody shut up about frames and reactability for a while. It's not bad for Sheik to have good things.

 

[Akhenderson]

Yes speculation is 90% opinion, but please stop spreading false information.
People have said her throws are 12, 13, 14, and 15 frames. Someone is wrong and anyone with PM can go into it and find out which frames are distinguishable and which aren't.

Average human reaction time as by Google, which you either neglected to use or did bad math on, will give you a median reaction time of 12.9 frames. This is of the base population and not people who are trying to play smash competitively which can skew things in either direction because of a different base population. This is reacting to a simple visual stimulus. I have said this before and I will again. Even if her throws are as fast as 12 frames, the median reaction time is 12.9, meaning some people can actually react to that. I know of people who "claim" to be able to react to it, but that means literately nothing I am aware. Smash is also contextual and you can adapt to habits as well which can give you insight on the next throw based on numerous aspects of the game.

I have not went to google to search up average human reaction time so that's my fault. However, I have checked PM to see the frame data on Sheik's throws vs Ness. Really, only half of it was reliable. I've already stated that the reaction time was obviously a bad no-no that I shouldn't have stated so yeah, my fault there.

But then I checked on google and the average reaction time is .25 seconds, which should be 15 frames?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Twitch reaction time vs decision-based reaction time. The distinction matters. 20 frames reaction on a true mixup is still a relatively optimistic estimate, and Sheik's early frames are ambiguous. It's not reactable. If you are guessing correctly with any consistency against any player that actually makes frequent use of the mixup, you're using context clues, matchup knowledge, and information you've gleaned on player habits to inform your decision rather than actually reacting to the mixup.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yes speculation is 90% opinion, but please stop spreading false information.
People have said her throws are 12, 13, 14, and 15 frames. Someone is wrong and anyone with PM can go into it and find out which frames are distinguishable and which aren't.

Average human reaction time as by Google, which you either neglected to use or did bad math on, will give you a median reaction time of 12.9 frames. This is of the base population and not people who are trying to play smash competitively which can skew things in either direction because of a different base population. This is reacting to a simple visual stimulus. I have said this before and I will again. Even if her throws are as fast as 12 frames, the median reaction time is 12.9, meaning some people can actually react to that. I know of people who "claim" to be able to react to it, but that means literately nothing I am aware. Smash is also contextual and you can adapt to habits as well which can give you insight on the next throw based on numerous aspects of the game.

Also nobody constantly SDIs everything. Melee players still miss SDI on Fox uair. Few people SDI out of Ness or GnW's combos.

Oh no, I did not want to have this conversation again... here we go. Google's numbers are based off human metrics numbers afaik. Even if they are not, here are how these kinds of numbers are found: the test subjects look at a screen of one color. When the color changes, they press a button ASAP. There is no decision involved, hence it uses a completely different and much more time-effective neural path, one that skips conscious thought process. In a decision based reaction, that cannot be done; trying to do so will lead to the same reaction every time, or a random reaction every time, both of which on average lose to the mix-up half the time or worse depending on whether or not there is a habit. I really want somebody to make a test for decision based reaction time so we can prove that it is in-fact a different thing from twitch-reaction. For some reason nobody seems to trust the Milia blocker. They just kinda assume that "Oh I'm just bad at it" rather than "Oh this is actually slower"

 

[Akhenderson]

Oh no, I did not want to have this conversation again... here we go. Google's numbers are based off human metrics numbers afaik. Even if they are not, here are how these kinds of numbers are found: the test subjects look at a screen of one color. When the color changes, they press a button ASAP. There is no decision involved, hence it uses a completely different and much more time-effective neural path, one that skips conscious thought process. In a decision based reaction, that cannot be done; trying to do so will lead to the same reaction every time, or a random reaction every time, both of which on average lose to the mix-up half the time or worse depending on whether or not there is a habit. I really want somebody to make a test for decision based reaction time so we can prove that it is in-fact a different thing from twitch-reaction. For some reason nobody seems to trust the Milia blocker. They just kinda assume that "Oh I'm just bad at it" rather than "Oh this is actually slower"

Test using twitch reaction: 16 frames
Test using Millia Blocker (decision based): 29 frames
Pretty significant difference~
So I guess I'm not crazy/wrong. WEEEEEEELP I look silly~

 

[Life]

tl;dr If people could actually react to mixups in 12 frames, why do overheads in every traditional fighter take so much longer than that to come out? You should never get hit by them in that case.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Test using twitch reaction: 16 frames
Test using Millia Blocker (decision based): 29 frames
Pretty significant difference~
So I guess I'm not crazy/wrong. WEEEEEEELP I look silly~

You'd probably cut that time down a bit with some practice. My average on any given day is usually 20-21 frames, but I also play a bit of GG on the side. I know Millia's animations well enough that I can pick out the early frames of her overheads quickly and reliably. If not for that I'd likely average 25 frames or more.

That said, it's also worth bearing in mind that the Millia Blocker test eliminates many other options, and of course it's random so you can't try to anticipate any patterns.

 

[Warhawk]

Sooo, Fox.
The problem I have with Fox is how he is amazing at everything. Best defensive options in the game besides maybe Bowser's OOS. Best pressure. Amazing at killing. Amazing camping game. Amazing aggro where he just runs you over with shine nairs and nair shines. Amazing ability to stuff approaches, A really good recovery that can be angled or shortened and has tons of distance and so little lag that it often requires a read to punish.

Honestly Fox just needs one or two of these areas severely nerfed, here are my opinions on which ones should be nerfed.
Amazing

Who here likes really campy fox? Yeah no one, who likes hype fox shield pressure and raw speed? Exactly, let's make Fox into a hyper aggressive pressure based character, nerf lasers and the priority on things like Bair, Utilt and the like that makes him impossible to approach.

Then make his shine cc able so that his game requires some mixups instead of just auto piloting while stoned and drunk and nair shining until uspsmash percent.

Okay I voiced my opinion, what do you all think of it?

I like Fox being able to do a bit of both aggro and runaway, so I don't think for me that's what I'd want to change although I'd change some of the same things to try and achieve a different result. I think for me right now what I look at his ridiculous combination to open people up with his great mobility combined also with his good hitbox coverage that allows him to beat out a lot of things to open people up. Why does he need and get both? Falcon has great mobility but pretty **** hitbox coverage in a lot of situations and he's still amazing. I think the PMDT should experiment with the hitboxes on Fox's aerials being nerfed as well as moves like uptilt, upsmash, and maybe shine and his grab range too. I don't think this character should be able to have this amazing mobility game and then do a poor job using it, get cornered, and then still be able to get out of a risky situation because his nair or upsmash beats out whatever they did. Falco at least has the excuse of having mediocre mobility to go with a terrible recovery that gets him into and killed in those situation more often especially if he even manages to trade in that situation.

For these reasons at least for me, I would go the route of reducing his hitbox coverage on a lot of moves before doing anything else so that yes he has this great mobility, but he has to use it better/work harder to get a hit or reversal since his hitboxes aren't also amazing. Leave the amazing hitboxes to the fat/slow characters. If it were me at least I'd start here with him and probably also give him PAL up-b length and reduce the ridiculous damage on uair. Maybe look into giving him another laser nerf (.5% here we come) or upsmash kill power nerf, but I would wait to do this until after seeing how the other nerfs affected him.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I like your idea DF, I like it a lot. And I usually hate what you say in this thread (sorry).

Sadly I don't think there is any chance Fox gets made into a reasonable character like that cause melee. :'(

Can we get a Cause Melee meme?

 

[steelguttey]

kind of off topic but can we kill this "oh gee the tier list thread is talking about FAHKS again" because, woop de ****in do, we're talking about the best character in the game. you wanna see the same thing? look at the early melee tier list threads, they talk about sheik a whole bunch. then they talk about fox once they realize hes the best character in the game. marvel tier list threads talk about zero, street fighter tier list threads talk about e.ryu, smash 4 tier list threads talk about sheik, brawl tier list threads talk about meta knight. we're talking about how we can rank different characters near each other and what their matchups are with each other, how can anyone think that we wouldnt talk about fox a ton. its important to talk about, sadly. i get sick of it most of the time but its discussions we need to have because we're making a tier list, i guess.

also, me and every other olimar main say this whenever fox is brought up but ima say it again. big words this time to make sure everyone sees it

if one fox laser touches a pikmin that is in mid flight the pikmin instantly falls to the ground and because of this my side b is removed from the game when im playing that matchup unless i have a purple

 

[Deleted member]

Let's give Sheik back her 50/50 DI mix up that still sets up into an edge guard or kill at 90% but make sure that Ness can't get anything more than a fair off of his throw. Also, make his grab range tiny.

I really wish that something different was done with Sheik's throws.

when i sent in the proposal for sheiks throws, i had them better than they are now, but worse than 3.5. strongbad brought it up to me that they were probably too good, to which i replied that what i made was my ideal for a final build and was admittedly too good for the relatively anemic cast of 3.6 or 3.6b. to be fair i also tried to nerf her upsmash so it would rarely if ever kill from a throw as a true combo. sheik is tricky to balance in the current version because conversions seem to be normalized across the cast, which means almost de facto that fast characters have a strict advantage over slower ones, having both the better defensive options as well as the better offensive options, having the tools (mobility) to enable a better punish game.

to be clear, i do not consider sheik to be a "fast character". her moves are fast and her run speed is decent, but she doesnt have the DD window or air speed to provide any real pressure, like characters like mario and (and maybe ness?) her neutral is based off of WD rather than DD. i believe that ness and sheik are in a similar situation where they commonly lose to the good characters of 3.6 by virtue of the neutral game over and over, and when they each get conversions on their respective opponents, neither seems to have a punish that makes up for losing in neutral. i don't know that i would consider either character bad by any means, but i'll also admit i know appx nothing about ness in PM.

i think sheik's throws are fine for now. i think what you're really going for is that you want ness to have better and more reliable conversions. this is actually a direction i wanted to push for the next version, where slow character have the tools to check dashdance abuse (and i commonly cite ike's 3.5 QD attack for this) i think things like kirby dash attack or GAW dacus actually do this very well. for sheik, that means having better throws once i finally get them. for ness.....i'm not really sure what it means. i think you personally should think it over for the next few days and let me know what you come up with. my only idea is making dash attack CC-proof. you can revert the SDI modifiers on ness fair but then that characters get silly on the other side of the spectrum really quick imo.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I think Charizard is super super good I just think players are used to eating soup and even though were eating steak now theyre still convinced that forks are useless.

 

[Warzenschwein]

i play vs zefklop and he makes zard look broken af why has god forsaken me

 

[Boiko]

when i sent in the proposal for sheiks throws, i had them better than they are now, but worse than 3.5. strongbad brought it up to me that they were probably too good, to which i replied that what i made was my ideal for a final build and was admittedly too good for the relatively anemic cast of 3.6 or 3.6b. to be fair i also tried to nerf her upsmash so it would rarely if ever kill from a throw as a true combo. sheik is tricky to balance in the current version because conversions seem to be normalized across the cast, which means almost de facto that fast characters have a strict advantage over slower ones, having both the better defensive options as well as the better offensive options, having the tools (mobility) to enable a better punish game.

to be clear, i do not consider sheik to be a "fast character". her moves are fast and her run speed is decent, but she doesnt have the DD window or air speed to provide any real pressure, like characters like mario and (and maybe ness?) her neutral is based off of WD rather than DD. i believe that ness and sheik are in a similar situation where they commonly lose to the good characters of 3.6 by virtue of the neutral game over and over, and when they each get conversions on their respective opponents, neither seems to have a punish that makes up for losing in neutral. i don't know that i would consider either character bad by any means, but i'll also admit i know appx nothing about ness in PM.

i think sheik's throws are fine for now. i think what you're really going for is that you want ness to have better and more reliable conversions. this is actually a direction i wanted to push for the next version, where slow character have the tools to check dashdance abuse (and i commonly cite ike's 3.5 QD attack for this) i think things like kirby dash attack or GAW dacus actually do this very well. for sheik, that means having better throws once i finally get them. for ness.....i'm not really sure what it means. i think you personally should think it over for the next few days and let me know what you come up with. my only idea is making dash attack CC-proof. you can revert the SDI modifiers on ness fair but then that characters get silly on the other side of the spectrum really quick imo.

I basically agree with your first two paragraphs as a whole. Sheik does not have a great DD (which, IMO, is among the strongest tools a character can have). She has decent run speed, and less than good aerial mobility. Where she shines is really the great speed and hitboxes on her normals, plus her conversions, edge guarding, and now grab game. I don't think that Ness is bad, per se, I just think that he's weaker than about 80 percent of the cast.

Very quick interjection before I continue. Yes, you're correct, I want Ness to have better and more reliable conversions off of grabs. The simple fact is Ness has one of the shortest grab ranges in the game, and no mobility to allow him to get in and get that grab. Pikachu and Sonic have smaller grab ranges for example, but they obviously don't have a problem with speed. What baffled me is that Sheik got her throw mix up back, which I think we all agree is a pretty strong tool, but a character like Ness, who has a much harder time controlling space, edge guarding, escaping combos, getting a grab, doing anything really, has had his throw changed twice now. I know that it's supposed to be an even line between 3.5 and 3.0 now, but there are so many characters with much stronger grab games that I really don't understand the point in changing it at all. Ness doesn't have a DI mix up, or command grab. Why should his only reward when he gets a grab be a fair that the opponent can SDI out of an receive 6 percent? I understand why Sheik got her mix up back, and that's not what is disappointing me.

Anyway, moving onto something else entirely:

It's my opinion that being able to kill from center stage (typically off of the top, with some high kb exceptions), is another very strong trait that a character can have in Smash, and PM specifically, due to the strength of recoveries. Take Fox for example: up throw>uair, up smash. Neither of those moves heavily rely on stage positioning. Fox can kill you from anywhere on the stage.

So, I made this chart. It compiles all of the data from various different moves and their knock back on Mario at 100% (using Strong Bad's knock back calculator). Let me know what you think (I'm about 90 percent sure that this is all accurate. But please let me know if you see a mistake):

It's important to note that these aren't necessarily a character's strongest moves, but rather, moves that either:
A.) Are typical KO moves for that character by being easy to set up into
B.) Do not typically rely upon stage positioning

To make myself even more clear, Mario's Fsmash is great at the ledge, but it's less than great going from left stage to right stage. His up smash doesn't rely on positioning nearly as much, so that is included, but Fsmash is not.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O2FRviJavVXHQu1AVPGH4EEnV5KDWERAK-WoBuXrJuE/edit?usp=sharing

Something also worth mentioning is that some moves, like Snake's C4 detonation, or Fox's up air, may seem weaker than most, but they're usually hit out of a combo, where the opponent is already high up to begin with.

 

[Jonyc128]

I basically agree with your first two paragraphs as a whole. Sheik does not have a great DD (which, IMO, is among the strongest tools a character can have). She has decent run speed, and less than good aerial mobility. Where she shines is really the great speed and hitboxes on her normals, plus her conversions, edge guarding, and now grab game. I don't think that Ness is bad, per se, I just think that he's weaker than about 80 percent of the cast.

Very quick interjection before I continue. Yes, you're correct, I want Ness to have better and more reliable conversions off of grabs. The simple fact is Ness has one of the shortest grab ranges in the game, and no mobility to allow him to get in and get that grab. Pikachu and Sonic have smaller grab ranges for example, but they obviously don't have a problem with speed. What baffled me is that Sheik got her throw mix up back, which I think we all agree is a pretty strong tool, but a character like Ness, who has a much harder time controlling space, edge guarding, escaping combos, getting a grab, doing anything really, has had his throw changed twice now. I know that it's supposed to be an even line between 3.5 and 3.0 now, but there are so many characters with much stronger grab games that I really don't understand the point in changing it at all. Ness doesn't have a DI mix up, or command grab. Why should his only reward when he gets a grab be a fair that the opponent can SDI out of an receive 6 percent? I understand why Sheik got her mix up back, and that's not what is disappointing me.

Anyway, moving onto something else entirely:

It's my opinion that being able to kill from center stage (typically off of the top, with some high kb exceptions), is another very strong trait that a character can have in Smash, and PM specifically, due to the strength of recoveries. Take Fox for example: up throw>uair, up smash. Neither of those moves heavily rely on stage positioning. Fox can kill you from anywhere on the stage.

So, I made this chart. It compiles all of the data from various different moves and their knock back on Mario at 100% (using Strong Bad's knock back calculator). Let me know what you think (I'm about 90 percent sure that this is all accurate. But please let me know if you see a mistake):

It's important to note that these aren't necessarily a character's strongest moves, but rather, moves that either:
A.) Are typical KO moves for that character by being easy to set up into
B.) Do not typically rely upon stage positioning

To make myself even more clear, Mario's Fsmash is great at the ledge, but it's less than great going from left stage to right stage. His up smash doesn't rely on positioning nearly as much, so that is included, but Fsmash is not.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O2FRviJavVXHQu1AVPGH4EEnV5KDWERAK-WoBuXrJuE/edit?usp=sharing

Something also worth mentioning is that some moves, like Snake's C4 detonation, or Fox's up air, may seem weaker than most, but they're usually hit out of a combo, where the opponent is already high up to begin with.

So in terms of pure knockback units, Mario's fair is stronger than the Knee, Fox upsmash, and Marth's Fsmash.