Tier List Speculation

[nimigoha]

Loads of characters can 'destroy Fox' if they get a combo started.

The key part is that at low %, lots of characters have poor combo starters that Fox can CC shine, whereas Fox has neutral tools that combo into shine at relatively low %.

 

[The_NZA]

Maybe most Ness mains are bad and don't have a neutral game so they blame their char. idk enough about Ness, but that's not an excuse for any char, because Ness, compared to tons of other chars has a really good neutral.

Can someone make a vine of themselves dramatically reading this. Because I'd love to hear it on loop. Its...so damn perfect.

How many times do I need to write essays explaining why Ness' neutral is bad? Let me put it simply, Ness has many different mix up options that make it seem like he has a good neutral. However, all of his mix up options lose to the same response from the opponent, and are all hard commitments. The thing about PM is that no character is truly awful (besides 3.6b Bowser, yikes). So Ness can catch you off guard sometimes and get a combo going. But then his combos lose to SDI or teching, yikes.

Regarding Fox, please nerf the priority on up tilt. That move is so insanely good and set ups for so much damage.

Don't worry Boiko. One of us will run through a bracket of semi fast fallers or StereoKIDD will wickedly outplay his entire bracket and we'll go ahead and give more fodder to these guys that Ness, is in fact, fine.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

this is kind of a side point, but what about Lucky vs. Mr.Lz at evo?

Lucky is a PM fox moreso than any other top melee foxes, he actually plays the game regularly and knows PM-specific tech

and he got embarassed by a good gnw. Is this not what the game is supposed to be? Lucky couldn't just do fox things without knowing the matchup. If Lucky knew the matchup, then maybe fox still would have had an advantage, but nevertheless, lucky couldn't just fox his way in and nairshine to victory

is that not what the game is supposed to function like

(also keep in mind that another melee top tier player got second at that tournament, but if was a peach player not a fox. other metagame tools for other characters transfer over as well, it's just that nobody plays peach in PM aside from the two peaches that got top five at evo)

 

[Boiko]

this is kind of a side point, but what about Lucky vs. Mr.Lz at evo?

Lucky is a PM fox moreso than any other top melee foxes, he actually plays the game regularly and knows PM-specific tech

and he got embarassed by a good gnw. Is this not what the game is supposed to be? Lucky couldn't just do fox things without knowing the matchup. If Lucky knew the matchup, then maybe fox still would have had an advantage, but nevertheless, lucky couldn't just fox his way in and nairshine to victory

is that not what the game is supposed to function like

(also keep in mind that another melee top tier player got second at that tournament, but if was a peach player not a fox. other metagame tools for other characters transfer over as well, it's just that nobody plays peach in PM aside from the two peaches that got top five at evo)

Lucky was toasted.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I'll never understand people who imply high level fox is braindead. I guess I just have to disagree in the fullest, and now that he's nerfed it's even further from the truth.

It's not that he is braindead from a technical sense, it's that from a risk reward standpoint over the entire roster, his skill set leads to the best chance of success with little deviation from his original game plan being required. The excuse used a lot is that fox gets chain grabbed by the entire cast...

For starters this is no longer true, since several of the newly viable characters don't have such guarantees, and most legal stages have platform escapes combined with the difficulties of grabbing a spacie. Even the punished the hardest logic is kind of dated, since the heavies such as bowser and dk generally have easier to transition to punishes on them for more damage, and are just as prone to being gimped. Fox isn't the best just for his years of experience with the character, he is the best for his top 3 neutral game, hi damage punish game with a top 5 best vertical kill options, and not being punished the hardest even when his openings are exploited. That is the reason he is being nerfed, and that he does better than other melee characters with just as much character experience.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

A gets shot with a bullet, B only got punched in the face, so why is B complaining?
nerfs are nerfs man.

Um, do you think I'm salty about the nerfs? I mess around with a lot of characters (and thus try and discuss them when I can from their perspective, see G&W recently), Roy isn't one of them. If anything I hear Roy destroys Squirtle, so I should ecstatic if it was based around my personal experiences.

Some characters dont have great punish games on Fox. ZSS, sheik, falcon, Squirtle, and a couple others I'm forgetting all rely on tech chases (until reaction tech chases becomes the norm, but we aren't there yet). A lot more characters can punish Roy. His recovery is now worse and easier to gimp. He gets punished more reliably by more of the cast. I think Roy gets punished in every way harder than Fox, yet he has a worse neutral and a worse kill power. Everytime this comes, this gets brought up. I'm sure you could point to some fatties as well and make the same argument. I chose Roy because he is considered good.

 

[didds]

I'd be interested in seeing a list full of characters that reasonably could go even or slightly win against fox

 

[Nausicaa]

if the character never has to consider what the opponent is doing in any specific capacity, is that not also a huge red flag in terms of power level? if you can do the same **** regardless of what your opponent is doing? you never have to consider their gameplan and maybe alter your decision-making to negotiate it? thats so obviously and ridiculously problematic. how can you turn around and defend the character as not being braindead to play as?

I totally jumped into the middle of the combo and read this as if it was about TL
Fox and CF work too here.

Story Titled - The 'Fox' Craze​

AKA; Foxfood for thought.

Edit: Doublesexy


In a world where Fox was a fresh character who came with Project: M...

Everyone from new players to Melee vets thought it was fun, both to play as AND against a character who was fast and ninja-like.

A character who felt so free, in the sense that they could be extremely active while still playing either a simple or complex game and still be effective.

Free, where they could play the same character and either try using this speed to test the interesting possibilities it allowed in a non-linear way that a character finally allowed in Smash, and try things like Down-B and the abundance of good combo tools for highly aggressive play, or use it all in a pressure game that the presence of speed allowed simply being NEAR opponents.

The Fox-Threads discussed the love for the ability to play a simple mix-up game in neutral, fishing for hits between the cleanly good tools in N-Air, Grab, U-Smash, and Shine, never over-complicating the game because Fox could get away with direct methods of hitting and not getting hit out of neutral and offense.

They discussed all the match-ups over time, usually when a certain trait of a character proved troublesome.

This came mostly in the form of how they could get blown up by any other character if they were caught even a couple times in the interactions in close-quarters, and the game-play moved to offense while avoiding the few key interactions that truly threatened Fox.

Both parties agreed that this was fun. Dealing with a power-house that had to be cornered and defended against, and explosive offense could come from either side leaving the match-up very honest in the sense that either party could make a few good reads and shift the game in their favor.

Though there were glimmers of something, how those interactions could be devastating, and while Fox could control this pacing with pursuit, he could also do it within evasion.

Similar to the non-interaction that Mewtwo or Sonic in other iterations had, but while their pressure was tricky, it was simple and easy for Fox to play to it.

So the melee-gods like King2Mew resorted to more run-away play, applying the simple offense when holes were open, but creating the space while avoiding the risks that could harm them. Some trick was applied and it was much more solid than alternatives.

Things developed further to corner and pin Fox down, and it was fun, and interesting, and seemed fairly functional in the game, even with such a powerhouse having moved to a camping game that was both stronger than his already strong aggression, and difficult to match for most of the roster.

Later, when higher level play was creeping up in fragments to show more glimmers of the possibilities, things like ProfSnake vs Zefrox happened, and the community got a clearer idea on something.

That perhaps there was a tiny bit of Jank somewhere.

It wasn't Shine, it wasn't U-Smash, it wasn't the tools that involved the fun and engaging activity of the game, even if all of it was a little on the strong side given the character being so fast.

There was some pointing... maybe a little head-shaking and nodding...

That lasers may be the culprit to watch in the future of the game, and maybe it's the difference-maker behind all the force that is Fox.

Fox was generally considered in the higher part of the roster from the beginning, but this further understanding and deeper look at the game and where it will go.

This allowed him to be left somewhere around here throughout every version of the game and stabilized in the area of the 'goodness-of-the-game' AKA tier-list, up and down, but always high. http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-790#post-19306906

The community moved on, enjoying him, but keeping an eye on the red flash with no hit-stun that dealt damage threateningly enough to maybe...

...just MAYBE...

...warrant a little bit more start-up or end-lag or decrease in distance to be reasonably catch-able in some way.

Maybe.

I made a big post about that Lucky thing when it happened. What was the date of that tourney? I'll search it.
Basically, it was just about how funny it is to see players do things they would never do against things they're comfortable with, and how silly it looks.
Normal PM stuff.
The player-base/meta-game/etc to this game is still VERY below the 'par' that people tend to talk about it being on.
It's been below the 'discussed/assumed-par' since day 1 of 2.1 when Prof and Lucien and SW and Chillin were playing Wolf like a Fox while I was busy D-Tilt/U-Air Side-Bing kills that nobody seemed to think was BnB Wolf play. It was below that 'par' when M2K was telling me he didn't want to get the free-kills with Mewtwo's Down-B because he didn't want to use Hovers and thought U-Air strings ending with more U-Air was all he would need to stay on top. It was below 'par' when ZSS was said to have a hard time with spacies and the popular decent-ish players with her never used her strongest tools that are barely coming into play today. It was below 'par' when Samus had the most broken move in the game in the form of Z-Air that never got talked about enough, or when TL/Link had lock-and-loop Grabs that broke the game interactions and easy-mode counter-approaches harder than Yoshi's Grab ever could and never got flamed of the jank, when Sonic was considered bad and G&W was considered bad and Wario was considered bad and whoever else was considered bad when they were some of the better characters in various versions throughout early 2.1+ patches.

The player-base/meta-game is still 'bad' relative to this 'assumed-par' and don't think otherwise.
Or you'll think Pikachu is bad when he's the only character considered potentially to go even with both 3.02 Mewtwo AND Fox.
Ganon can't do anything to those characters, yet somehow Pikachu is as bad or worse than Ganon.
Yes, good call.

Game-play is still bad.
Game is ****ing good.

That, by the way, is absolutely GREAT!
So deep and fun and complex and flexible, growing is fun. We're doing it together.
Scrubs.

 

[foxygrandpa]

This might be a credible claim if Fox had to do anything more complicated than laser (or platform) camp, and then DD/nairshine to be a vastly better character than 95% of the cast. That's not 'a pushed meta', that's just an incredibly simple, effective, braindead gameplan that requires very little adaptation by matchup and invalidates more than one character.

Stating that PM players haven't pushed their characters' metas past this extremely crude level is nothing short of patronizing and hugely insulting.

You do realize I am a project m player, right? I'm not trying to be patronizing, so I'd appreciate it if you dropped the condescending tone.
I still think fox is problematic, but there are definitely characters up to his level.
Whether or not you want to agree with it, there are 10 times as many foxes than there are other characters. That's a fact, and isn't really disputable.
You can still be the best with a respective character and not be that good of a player. A lot of character metas are still young.

I'd be interested in seeing a list full of characters that reasonably could go even or slightly win against fox

ROB, roy, marth, MK all do even or better imo. I think sheik does better than she does in melee too, but still might slightly lose.

 

[Soft Serve]

samus, i'd argue still mewtwo, bowser (yes, bowser), falcon ROB maybe ike sonic zelda lucario maybe diddy possibly peach and falco

Lol diddy fox. Nothing in this mu has fundamentally changed since 3.0, other than diddy's punish game getting worse. Fox is diddy's worst mu and always has been.

Fox's uptilt and bair beat all jump ins and clank with both popgun and bananas. No biggy, there are a lot of MUs where diddy can't reliably open them up and has to pitch a tent. Oh wait, lasers break peanuts as I shoot them, so I can't force him to approach me? I better pull a banana. Oh he's in my face now, is fast enough to punish a banana pull as long as he isn't at the other side of the stage when I start. So I can't open him up at all, and I can't camp him out, guess I'll just have to out play him and get a punish started. Oh man, all of my normals lose to cc shine, and I can't use my normal anti-cc strategy, bananas, unless I he plays incorrectly or I drop a punish to just get it out. Okay, so I guess it's going to be stray bair hard reads on his jump ins and 8% throw tech chases until my upthrow starts comboing/chain grabbing at around 45%. That's where diddy shines, if he gets a grab post 50ish % it's probably the easiest combo of your life.
Since we're talking punish game, let's not forget to mention that diddy still dies to one shine off stage.thankfully diddy is small enough for easy sdi oUT of upthrow upair, so that's another point. The combos are still brain dead simple for fox, you just do upthrow >whatever you want, on every shine go for the jab reset and that's a free falling upair>whatever if I don't tech his frame 1 move. Fox's same edge guard setups (ledge stall, shine bair or waveland on stage punish landing) all work on diddy so he doesn't have to think past looking at diddy's up b and watching the angle so he can throw his bair in roughly the right spot. If he misses he can just punish the landing lag anyway, because unless diddy goes for the low sweetspot (loses to shine/holding ledge) or platform cancels it, he's not recovering if fox understands how diddy recovers.

Let's not forget that if diddy has a banana in hand, what is normally considered to be one of the best oos options in the game (only 2nd to shines oos), glide tosses, become completely useless vs fox and actually let him convert off of them, if he just holds shine a bit longer.

Its a disgusting match up. That said i think it's close to even on like, fd and smashville, too bad fox can ban both in a set. It's not unwinnable, diddy just has to play 100% perfect and outplay fox multiple times to take a stock, while dies to two shines.

Also Ness blows

 

[didds]

I also think, like nausicaa, that pika goes at least even with fox. Ff combos are hella easy in pm as pika. Fox is like made to be beat up by pikachu

 

[Nausicaa]

Somewhat related to what I just posted.
Hopefully this makes a big more sense of why/how/what's going on and why I said what I did.


/Rant-copy-pasted
It's amazing how bad the PM skill-level is in general when compared to Melee

not just developed meta-game and whatever, but actual player-base level-of-play

Always fascinating to talk to peeps about it, because I really don't think anyone has any idea how much that's affecting meta-game development on both individual levels and mass scales

It's the most dramatic thing altering this by far.

Way more than '14 years of learning a smash game' or 'availability of video and internet' and anything else ever could.

The assumed level of play of the player-base vs level of play being played by the player-base that has an assumed level of play

Even an educated guess or well thought-out rounding idea of it is probably years off of what's actually going on.

Everyone sucks so ****ing much.

lol

In a good way though, if that can make any sense to anyone.

It's like the bridge between 2 extremes is missing, and it's taking time to converge, and nobody wants to give it time so nobody is paying attention to it.

A Puff that likes to B-Air a lot. One end I say 'Pay attention to when you're turning around to B-Air. Don't think about whether you should or shouldn't, if it was good or bad, or whatever, just take note and forget about it because it's not a big deal, just NOTICE when you're turning around' Then someone from the other extreme (most popularly known coach-like players in the community) says 'When you B-Air, if you do it in these various ways it's safer than these, but these work too for these reasons, etc-details-etc' The latter is where everyone comes from, and has seemingly NO IDEA that that's where they're coming from. Hugs didn't, Axe didn't, no matter how many players come to me and learn wtf they're ALREADY doing, nobody is paying any attention to this "approaching the game itself" and too busy thinking about things like "how to approach in the game" Eventually that 'if you B-Air like this, these are the results as opposed to B-Airs this other way' leads to looking at more interactions with other things in other situations, and the mental-scale of the actual mind-at-play turns the person into a Smash Player, rather than someone who's just playing, and it just happens to be Smash that they're playing. Playing Smash, and just playing and happening to play Smash, are very different. The line has to be crossed, and usually it's done this way. The other angle is the 'Pay attention to when you're positioning yourself into that B-Air' which will lead to the same route. Paying attention to other engagements, interactions, habits BETWEEN the habits, decisions made BETWEEN the observable. They lead to the same place. Everybody is coming from one side of it. Nobody has any idea what this means for them. Nobody understands the other side of it. Because everybody is too busy (mental business is the only business EVER worth mentioning, side-note) to look at what they're ALREADY DOING.

Silly people and their... games they play with themselves.

/Rant-over


Characters like Samus will beat Diddy harder long-term.
Diddy can't even get her fat *** off the ground.
He can at least do something to Fox if he out-plays him.
This will take it's toll in the development of play.

edit: Still worth mentioning (for the billionth time I'm sure)
I've never considered Fox to be a Top 5 character in any Project M version to-date.
So don't listen to me, I must be NUTS

 

[EmptySky00]

Can someone make a vine of themselves dramatically reading this. Because I'd love to hear it on loop. Its...so damn perfect.




Don't worry Boiko. One of us will run through a bracket of semi fast fallers or StereoKIDD will wickedly outplay his entire bracket and we'll go ahead and give more fodder to these guys that Ness, is in fact, fine.

God you sound like an abused animal commercial. FOR PENNIES A DAY, YOU CAN GIVE NESS THE BUFFS HE NEEDS TO HAVE A GOOD NEUTRAL! Think of all the kids out there who want to solo main this character but get blown out by better players... Donate now to nerf everyone else and turn Ness into Fox.

I've never see a single post from you where you weren't either crying about Ness or slandering other people's characters with misinformation and salt. I said it before but you people seriously need to sing a new tune. The GnW and Ness songs which were once hit singles have now been played out well beyond their worth. Every politician in the free ****ing world knows yours and Drinking Ass's views on GnW. And every civil rights activist has a picture of Ness on their living room wall. It's over. Good job and congratulations to you both. Go back to playing the ****ing game.

 

[Akhenderson]

God you sound like an abused animal commercial. FOR PENNIES A DAY, YOU CAN GIVE NESS THE BUFFS HE NEEDS TO HAVE A GOOD NEUTRAL! Think of all the kids out there who want to solo main this character but get blown out by better players... Donate now to nerf everyone else and turn Ness into Fox.

I've never see a single post from you where you weren't either crying about Ness or slandering other people's characters with misinformation and salt. I said it before but you people seriously need to sing a new tune. The GnW and Ness songs which were once hit singles have now been played out well beyond their worth. Every politician in the free ****ing world knows yours and Drinking ***'s views on GnW. And every civil rights activist has a picture of Ness on their living room wall. It's over. Good job and congratulations to you both. Go back to playing the ****ing game.

Donate now and you too can buff Ness's grab range!

Spoiler

 

[Kipcom]

Somewhat related to what I just posted.
Hopefully this makes a big more sense of why/how/what's going on and why I said what I did.


/Rant-copy-pasted
It's amazing how bad the PM skill-level is in general when compared to Melee

not just developed meta-game and whatever, but actual player-base level-of-play

Always fascinating to talk to peeps about it, because I really don't think anyone has any idea how much that's affecting meta-game development on both individual levels and mass scales

It's the most dramatic thing altering this by far.

Way more than '14 years of learning a smash game' or 'availability of video and internet' and anything else ever could.

The assumed level of play of the player-base vs level of play being played by the player-base that has an assumed level of play

Even an educated guess or well thought-out rounding idea of it is probably years off of what's actually going on.

Everyone sucks so ****ing much.

lol

In a good way though, if that can make any sense to anyone.

It's like the bridge between 2 extremes is missing, and it's taking time to converge, and nobody wants to give it time so nobody is paying attention to it.

A Puff that likes to B-Air a lot. One end I say 'Pay attention to when you're turning around to B-Air. Don't think about whether you should or shouldn't, if it was good or bad, or whatever, just take note and forget about it because it's not a big deal, just NOTICE when you're turning around' Then someone from the other extreme (most popularly known coach-like players in the community) says 'When you B-Air, if you do it in these various ways it's safer than these, but these work too for these reasons, etc-details-etc' The latter is where everyone comes from, and has seemingly NO IDEA that that's where they're coming from. Hugs didn't, Axe didn't, no matter how many players come to me and learn wtf they're ALREADY doing, nobody is paying any attention to this "approaching the game itself" and too busy thinking about things like "how to approach in the game" Eventually that 'if you B-Air like this, these are the results as opposed to B-Airs this other way' leads to looking at more interactions with other things in other situations, and the mental-scale of the actual mind-at-play turns the person into a Smash Player, rather than someone who's just playing, and it just happens to be Smash that they're playing. Playing Smash, and just playing and happening to play Smash, are very different. The line has to be crossed, and usually it's done this way. The other angle is the 'Pay attention to when you're positioning yourself into that B-Air' which will lead to the same route. Paying attention to other engagements, interactions, habits BETWEEN the habits, decisions made BETWEEN the observable. They lead to the same place. Everybody is coming from one side of it. Nobody has any idea what this means for them. Nobody understands the other side of it. Because everybody is too busy (mental business is the only business EVER worth mentioning, side-note) to look at what they're ALREADY DOING.

Silly people and their... games they play with themselves.

/Rant-over


Characters like Samus will beat Diddy harder long-term.
Diddy can't even get her fat *** off the ground.
He can at least do something to Fox if he out-plays him.
This will take it's toll in the development of play.

edit: Still worth mentioning (for the billionth time I'm sure)
I've never considered Fox to be a Top 5 character in any Project M version to-date.
So don't listen to me, I must be NUTS

****ing what?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Oh look, NZA's back after completely ignoring more post... Was it because he couldn't argue? Was it because he thought I was the stupidest person on the internet? The world may never know... That is the second time that has happened with a well known player, the other being DrinkingFood. FYI to all of you, I take that as a "I don't know how to argue with you so I will ignore you and move on to something else so I don't have to admit it".

@ Nausicaa
Your posts make absolutely no sense, but they are kind of interesting. +2 likes to you.

 

[The_NZA]

Oh look, NZA's back after completely ignoring more post... Was it because he couldn't argue? Was it because he thought I was the stupidest person on the internet? The world may never know... That is the second time that has happened with a well known player, the other being DrinkingFood. FYI to all of you, I take that as a "I don't know how to argue with you so I will ignore you and move on to something else so I don't have to admit it".

@ Nausicaa
Your posts make absolutely no sense, but they are kind of interesting. +2 likes to you.

I legit don't know what post you think I'm ignoring. I stopped posting here and started just reading because it was clear I had said my piece and others were making the points I would have made in my stead so it made sense to take a break from posting on this thread.

Sounds honestly like this stuff might be hitting you too personally--which, if it's any fault of my own, I'm genuinely sorry it sounds like I'm whining. I've tried to articulate myself as much as possible and have been pretty conscious of implying some of my positive views in this thread outside of my views that GnW is poorly designed and that Ness is weak (which btw are now ideas that seem to have a lot of agreement/support so you can't really be too mad at me for initially framing what is now being talked about for pages and pages in my stead).

Other things I've talked about--Link is decent and better than people give credit for, DDD is not bottom five characters and is pretty good now, the entire cast should be balanced up to the Lucas-wario-Diddy level and ness is cool and doesn't need any new tools a la float. Sorry me posting comes off as so negative . If you have tips let me know. I honestly just care about the game and enjoy talking about it's design which is often a conversation that is intrinsically critical.

If it's any consolation, I'm happy to talk about how this is the best balanced patch of pm, how cool Blacklisted was (which no stream viewers seem to want to talk about ) or how this game is cool. But those arent the things other people want to talk about.

For the record, I found what Mr. L said was hilarious so I felt compelled to quote it. Also Shoutouts to the guy before saying my donation drive world orchestrated parade to raise awareness for our young boy ness was becoming pandemically irritating. I can't both be disappearing from this thread and incessantly jamming my viewpoint down everyone's throat--those are kind of mutually exclusive.

I havent talked about ness for pages but when Mr. L or whatever says "ness players are bad and I don't know much about ness but Ness's neutral is good like Jesus how can you bad players say his neutral is bad" I kinda feel compelled to tease him. Shouldn't you?

 

[Experiment 5]

ness is fine

gdubs is fine

can't we all just get along

oh wait, this is the tier list spec thread

nvm, continue ****posting

EDIT: to fuel the storm, it really seems like only ness mains think ness is weak

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I legit don't know what post you think I'm ignoring. I stopped posting here and started just reading because it was clear I had said my piece and others were making the points I would have made in my stead so it made sense to take a break from posting on this thread.

Sounds honestly like this stuff might be hitting you too personally--which, if it's any fault of my own, I'm genuinely sorry it sounds like I'm whining. I've tried to articulate myself as much as possible and have been pretty conscious of implying some of my positive views in this thread outside of my views that GnW is poorly designed and that Ness is weak (which btw are now ideas that seem to have a lot of agreement/support so you can't really be too mad at me for initially framing what is now being talked about for pages and pages in my stead).

Other things I've talked about--Link is decent and better than people give credit for, DDD is not bottom five characters and is pretty good now, the entire cast should be balanced up to the Lucas-wario-Diddy level and ness is cool and doesn't need any new tools a la float. Sorry me posting comes off as so negative . If you have tips let me know. I honestly just care about the game and enjoy talking about it's design which is often a conversation that is intrinsically critical.

If it's any consolation, I'm happy to talk about how this is the best balanced patch of pm, how cool Blacklisted was (which no stream viewers seem to want to talk about ) or how this game is cool. But those arent the things other people want to talk about.

For the record, I found what Mr. L said was hilarious so I felt compelled to quote it. Also Shoutouts to the guy before saying my donation drive world orchestrated parade to raise awareness for our young boy ness was becoming pandemically irritating. I can't both be disappearing from this thread and incessantly jamming my viewpoint down everyone's throat--those are kind of mutually exclusive.

I havent talked about ness for pages but when Mr. L or whatever says "ness players are bad and I don't know much about ness but Ness's neutral is good like Jesus how can you bad players say his neutral is bad" I kinda feel compelled to tease him. Shouldn't you?

Specifically talking about Link and this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-901#post-19975450 (idk if thats how you do that, oh well...). 2 other people also quoted and talking about link and jab jab stuff agreeing with me and I don't see a single player that really answers my question. Just kind of frustrated that whenever I join a conversation where I have legitimate questions and good points they drop out and don't respond, but they when I am just posting to have fun and not really caring the person always responds back. Just trying to figure out if Link is actually bad or if I just don't understand him. And this isn't really hitting me personally, were good.

 

[eideeiit]

Nausicaa's post always make me question the way I see life the game.

Then make me sad because I can't bend my brain to even try to see it differently.

And I've tried to try.

Maybe I've done it wrong. It always ends with me giving up so quickly I think I never even tried.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ness has the classic problem of having no neutral against fast characters, and maybe too strong of one against fatties/others he can easily zone.

I think his punishes are off the chain though. In particular, he can get more from an OoS punish (and from farther away) than basically anyone by using traveling dairs.

 

[Experiment 5]

Ness has the classic problem of having no neutral against fast characters, and maybe too strong of one against fatties/others he can easily zone.

I think his punishes are off the chain though. In particular, he can get more from an OoS punish (and from farther away) than basically anyone by using traveling dairs.

this

also, d-throw is kinda ridiculous--it combos so well it makes ME jealous and I play gdubs lol

 

[Tomaster]

If ness gets buffed I think they should actually focus on his punish game rather than neutral game. I could see him getting another neutral option to make it easier to get to the punish game in high levels, but Ness's strength that I assume most ness players connect to is the punish game, not the neutral. I'd like to see that punish strength becoming more notable. It would be boring if every character in the game had a decent neutral and a decent punish, we need the variety to keep the game interesting. One thing I would hate to see changed is the lag on his PK Fire, because that would destroy the game in low levels.

Im not a ness main so im just theorizing here but i enjoy playing him and the punish game is the appealing part about him.

Thoughts?

 

[Akhenderson]

Ness has the classic problem of having no neutral against fast characters, and maybe too strong of one against fatties/others he can easily zone.

I think his punishes are off the chain though. In particular, he can get more from an OoS punish (and from farther away) than basically anyone by using traveling dairs.

PK Fire is worse the faster the opponent's character is, and Ness does not do well against any character that can pressure his shield well.
If Ness ever gets a crazy punish OOS, then you literally screwed up your spacing so hard that you probably deserve it.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I totally jumped into the middle of the combo and read this as if it was about TL
Fox and CF work too here.


I made a big post about that Lucky thing when it happened. What was the date of that tourney? I'll search it.
Basically, it was just about how funny it is to see players do things they would never do against things they're comfortable with, and how silly it looks.
Normal PM stuff.
The player-base/meta-game/etc to this game is still VERY below the 'par' that people tend to talk about it being on.
It's been below the 'discussed/assumed-par' since day 1 of 2.1 when Prof and Lucien and SW and Chillin were playing Wolf like a Fox while I was busy D-Tilt/U-Air Side-Bing kills that nobody seemed to think was BnB Wolf play. It was below that 'par' when M2K was telling me he didn't want to get the free-kills with Mewtwo's Down-B because he didn't want to use Hovers and thought U-Air strings ending with more U-Air was all he would need to stay on top. It was below 'par' when ZSS was said to have a hard time with spacies and the popular decent-ish players with her never used her strongest tools that are barely coming into play today. It was below 'par' when Samus had the most broken move in the game in the form of Z-Air that never got talked about enough, or when TL/Link had lock-and-loop Grabs that broke the game interactions and easy-mode counter-approaches harder than Yoshi's Grab ever could and never got flamed of the jank, when Sonic was considered bad and G&W was considered bad and Wario was considered bad and whoever else was considered bad when they were some of the better characters in various versions throughout early 2.1+ patches.

The player-base/meta-game is still 'bad' relative to this 'assumed-par' and don't think otherwise.
Or you'll think Pikachu is bad when he's the only character considered potentially to go even with both 3.02 Mewtwo AND Fox.
Ganon can't do anything to those characters, yet somehow Pikachu is as bad or worse than Ganon.
Yes, good call.

Game-play is still bad.
Game is ****ing good.

That, by the way, is absolutely GREAT!
So deep and fun and complex and flexible, growing is fun. We're doing it together.
Scrubs.

I could kiss you

EDIT: You subsequent post also said far better what I was trying to express not to long ago as well.

 

[Boiko]

this

also, d-throw is kinda ridiculous--it combos so well it makes ME jealous and I play gdubs lol

DI away, SDI the fair. He doesn't have consistent throw follow ups or a DI mix up like Fox, Falcon, Sheik, Mario, G&W, etc.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Man link falco is ridiculous. Sometimes the temptation to switch to toon link is really strong.

But anyways I do really agree with the point stated earlier that this whole tier list discussion is mostly masturbation. We don't know the first thing about this game, and I guarantee a few years from now we'll look at the lists posted now and laugh until we're blue. It's still fun to consider and guess though based upon what we do know.

 

[MrLul]

"I don't know enough to successfully judge whether it is good or bad but I know it isn't bad because its not"

I don't like doing that to people but I'm barely even putting any words in your mouth, you have to see how ridiculous this statement looks now that you've made it twice.

Also not having the worst neutral in the game doesn't mean your neutral isn't bad.

lmao, I'm going to use tired johns for that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ frankxthexbunny isn't it funny how your top characters for each patch just so happen to coincide with the characters that just got the most attention for being bull****
It's like you actually know absolutely nothing about them and are bandwagoning off common opinion of "Well they got the hardest nerfs, they MUST have been the best!"

 

[Kidneyjoe]

Man link falco is ridiculous. Sometimes the temptation to switch to toon link is really strong.

But anyways I do really agree with the point stated earlier that this whole tier list discussion is mostly masturbation. We don't know the first thing about this game, and I guarantee a few years from now we'll look at the lists posted now and laugh until we're blue. It's still fun to consider and guess though based upon what we do know.

People knew even less about Melee in 2002 when they correctly predicted the top 4 characters in the game. I'd say we can make some pretty well informed predictions about PM at this point. Obviously some of them will be wrong but I'm betting that quite a few of them will be right.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

@ frankxthexbunny isn't it funny how your top characters for each patch just so happen to coincide with the characters that just got the most attention for being bull****
It's like you actually know absolutely nothing about them and are bandwagoning off common opinion of "Well they got the hardest nerfs, they MUST have been the best!"

I dont think those are the best, nor did I say they were the best. They were just examples of characters that shot up in popularity once someone realized what was broken about them and were definitely better than fox in their patches. obviously they were just a sliver of what would have happened if any patch was left to stew for longer.

 

[MrLul]

DI away, SDI the fair. He doesn't have consistent throw follow ups or a DI mix up like Fox, Falcon, Sheik, Mario, G&W, etc.

Ness & GnW b

DI away, SDI the fair. He doesn't have consistent throw follow ups or a DI mix up like Fox, Falcon, Sheik, Mario, G&W, etc.

GnWs only guaranteed follow up off a throw is with u throw and you can no DI SDI away the uair to escape.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

People knew even less about Melee in 2002 when they correctly predicted the top 4 characters in the game. I'd say we can make some pretty well informed predictions about PM at this point. Obviously some of them will be wrong but I'm betting that quite a few of them will be right.

Wanna see that 3.0 tier prediction list when it just came out that was voted upon by top players?

 

[Kidneyjoe]

You mean the one that no one took seriously and was a publicity stunt by clash tournaments?

 

[The_NZA]

Ness & GnW b

GnWs only guaranteed follow up off a throw is with u throw and you can no DI SDI away the uair to escape.

Didn't DF and Magus already disprove this?

 

[frankxthexbunny]

You mean the one that no one took seriously and was a publicity stunt by clash tournaments?

spend all the time you want trying to ignore clear examples of everyone expecting melee tiers to dictate project m tiers and as always getting proven wrong because project m and melee will always be different and the probability of melee characters, even the spacies, taking the reign as the best characters in the game diminish each and every time they fail to do so patch after patch

 

[MrLul]

Didn't DF and Magus already disprove this?

Did they?

 

[Rawkobo]

spend all the time you want trying to ignore clear examples of everyone expecting melee tiers to dictate project m tiers and as always getting proven wrong because project m and melee will always be different and the probability of melee characters, even the spacies, taking the reign as the best characters in the game diminish each and every time they fail to do so patch after patch

Yeah, because it's not like Fox currently dictates the metagame of the upper 8 in Melee or resulted in PM making changes so that characters were capable of dealing with fast-fallers efficiently if they blatantly refused to learn matchups and outplay in PM's setting.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened. Pardon me, I had a bit of memory loss.

Look, I understand what you're trying to get across, and I agree that Fox does in fact have a lot of checks now in PM, and has had them since his tweaks in 2.6 and onward. A lot of characters have been experimented with and buffed/nerfed depending on how they work out, and this had led to some of them either being borderline broken or borderline useless. But that doesn't actually refute Melee top tiers being good, nor does it prove that they're overrated. It's a mod that's constantly getting refined, and since 3.5, I've felt like this game is heading in a much better direction than it was before in terms of handling balance and providing characters with much needed mixups, punish game tweaks, etc.

This is a game of matchups, so I understand that now that Fox actually has a few questionable matchups around the cast that it suddenly raises the question, "Is Fox actually the best character in the game?" As a matter of fact, yes, in 3.02, Fox was not the best character game. But he was still one of the best characters in the game.

In fact, this has been relevant since he was playable in the game. Even with certain absurdities showing up like 2.1 Ike, 2.5 Sonic, 2.6 Ivysaur, etc., he's stayed relevant within the top 3 or top 5 of the game. In 3.5, he was unquestionably the best character in the game, since most if not all characters were scaled down to quite a degree. He was the best character in the game even when his matchup with Roy was questionable.

What we understand about Fox from Melee can be applied to this game, because that's how he was inserted. That's the base model the PMDT inserted into the game and maintained until 2.6. That's the character that got his shine nerfed and still maintained full steam in the top 3 into 3.02. That's the character that survived up-smash nerfs and became one of the best Melee top tiers alongside Sheik in 3.5.

And that's because nothing's been done to his neutral, which many people have said, time and time again, is the best of all characters. In most fighting games, the neutral plays a huge role in determining how things play out, so you tend to be in a good place if you have a character with a fantastic neutral. Fox has that and a punish game that rivals some of the best punishers between all the patches of PM that there have ever been.

Our vision of the character might be a little flawed because there are matchups Fox has a bit of a tougher time with in this game, and there is a lot to be learned about the game as a whole. But your vision is also flawed if you're actively ignoring that Fox has the best collective traits of any character rolled into one simply because there are characters that may have some awkward design changes.

Show me a character with more consistent relevancy between every patch that isn't either Fox or, barring 3.02, Sheik.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

spend all the time you want trying to ignore clear examples of everyone expecting melee tiers to dictate project m tiers and as always getting proven wrong because project m and melee will always be different and the probability of melee characters, even the spacies, taking the reign as the best characters in the game diminish each and every time they fail to do so patch after patch

I never said anything about melee tiers dictating project m tiers. You said that we don't know the first thing about this game and I pointed to the first melee tier list as an example of people not knowing the first thing about their game still being able to make some decent predictions. That's it. Stop reading Fox hate into everything people say.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Regarding aforementioned Mewtwo v Fox:

It's probably even, but it's a "hard" 50:50 as they say. Mewtwo is already a tricky character, and Fox's nigh-universal neutral makes establishing comfortable positioning more difficult. Less room for error.

This is a common thread in many matchups v Fox. His simple, effective rushdown game in tandem with lasers and defensive use of shine means he's rarely truly on the back foot. Many characters have to work harder/play more precisely for their wins, and the ones that don't lack the necessary development to compete against him. Sometimes changes have poorly-understood significance in a character's matchups. It's a messy mixture.

Yet still we talk of silly things like settled metagames.