Tier List Speculation

[Akhenderson]

Maybe most Ness mains are bad and don't have a neutral game so they blame their char. idk enough about Ness, but that's not an excuse for any char, because Ness, compared to tons of other chars has a really good neutral.

Again, you posted nothing about why Ness's neutral is good instead of bad.

For one, Ness is not that fast, and has very committal attacks. Dash dancing in place accomplishes very little because Ness's dash attack is very susceptible to CC and with proper SDI, you don't even get hit by the third hit of the dash attack which is the most important part of the move. If it's blocked, the move is also minus on block, making it easy to punish him. Sure, you can space it so the only part that hits is the third hit, but your opponent would have either got out of the way by jumping or just shields it anyways. Due to this, dash attacking is an incredibly huge risk, which, yes, although has good reward, does not justify how dangerous it is to use it. Another common Ness thing during dash dances is to DJC fair and bair but are also unsafe on block. (Not to mention, fair is VERY VERY susceptible to CC) Ness must put himself in danger multiple times just to get a hit that can potentially lead into a combo. He can also throw PK Fires, but the grounded version comes out way too slow and literally loses to short hop approaches, while the aerial one is just easily blockable due to the range that Ness has to use it just to be safe. This is why the only thing that he can do in any match up is to look threatening, and punish stupid mistakes. Once the opponent figures out that the character just about loses to every defensive option and/or just doesn't commit to anything, Ness is a lackluster character that shouldn't ever win.

I'm also going to point out that yes, Ness has mag dashing and it is + on block. However, the hitbox on the magnet is very tiny and requires him to put himself in range of any combo breaking move, but jumping out of shield easily reverts the situation back to neutral, and Ness does not have the best tools to punish players in the air due to the lack of disjoint on his aerial moves besides fair. He also kind of has "Peach syndrome" in that he loses to top platform camping just because his double jump is slow, similar to Peach.

IMO a character having a good neutral allows them to force the opponent to approach and/or allows them to approach well. Ness has neither of these things which is why we continue to say, "Ness doesn't have a good neutral." The ONLY time the opponent HAS To approach is if Ness is winning in % or stocks, but that advantage applies to every character in the game. If THAT'S the only thing that makes his neutral "good" then every character in the game has a "good" neutral.

I'll also add that if EX Fire is what makes Ness's neutral somewhat passable, then you're asking WAY too much out of Ness mains if you think doing consistent 1 frame tricks should be required.

 

[eideeiit]

Reacting to weather he dairs or double jumps is super easy. Cover all options, don't use an aerial that can get you punished if you mess up a read. There's no way to get a guaranteed punish on it but he's in a really bad situation, just like all characters are if they're above you. What you should be doing is baiting out dair/jump and reacting accordingly. When he dairs hes stuck in the dair animation which lasts for ****ing ever and you can hit him from the sides or the tiny part under his dair where hes vulnerable, if he jumps, he has no jump you just have to bait out b reverses and aerials.

All characters have tools to punish it following what I just said lmao. Also, ROB is way more bull**** than GnW
is

TL;DR You shouldn't commit to one option when punishing GnW in the air after he uses UP B-ULL****

Maybe most Ness mains are bad and don't have a neutral game so they blame their char. idk enough about Ness, but that's not an excuse for any char, because Ness, compared to tons of other chars has a really good neutral.

WHY DOES NESS HAVE GOOD NEUTRAL?

Pls man.

 

[MrLul]

Again, you posted nothing about why Ness's neutral is good instead of bad.

For one, Ness is not that fast, and has very committal attacks. Dash dancing in place accomplishes very little because Ness's dash attack is very susceptible to CC and with proper SDI, you don't even get hit by the third hit of the dash attack which is the most important part of the move. If it's blocked, the move is also minus on block, making it easy to punish him. Sure, you can space it so the only part that hits is the third hit, but your opponent would have either got out of the way by jumping or just shields it anyways. Due to this, dash attacking is an incredibly huge risk, which, yes, although has good reward, does not justify how dangerous it is to use it. Another common Ness thing during dash dances is to DJC fair and bair but are also unsafe on block. (Not to mention, fair is VERY VERY susceptible to CC) Ness must put himself in danger multiple times just to get a hit that can potentially lead into a combo. He can also throw PK Fires, but the grounded version comes out way too slow and literally loses to short hop approaches, while the aerial one is just easily blockable due to the range that Ness has to use it just to be safe. This is why the only thing that he can do in any match up is to look threatening, and punish stupid mistakes. Once the opponent figures out that the character just about loses to every defensive option and/or just doesn't commit to anything, Ness is a lackluster character that shouldn't ever win.

I'm also going to point out that yes, Ness has mag dashing and it is + on block. However, the hitbox on the magnet is very tiny and requires him to put himself in range of any combo breaking move, but jumping out of shield easily reverts the situation back to neutral, and Ness does not have the best tools to punish players in the air due to the lack of disjoint on his aerial moves besides fair. He also kind of has "Peach syndrome" in that he loses to top platform camping just because his double jump is slow, similar to Peach.

IMO a character having a good neutral allows them to force the opponent to approach and/or allows them to approach well. Ness has neither of these things which is why we continue to say, "Ness doesn't have a good neutral." The ONLY time the opponent HAS To approach is if Ness is winning in % or stocks, but that advantage applies to every character in the game. If THAT'S the only thing that makes his neutral "good" then every character in the game has a "good" neutral.

I'll also add that if EX Fire is what makes Ness's neutral somewhat passable, then you're asking WAY too much out of Ness mains if you think doing consistent 1 frame tricks should be required.

If I applied your reasoning to why Ness' neutral is bad to GnW, GnW would have a crappier neutral than Ness.

WHY DOES NESS HAVE GOOD NEUTRAL?

Pls man.

idk if its good or just ok but I know it's not bad. Idk enough about Ness to debate but I know his neutral isn't ****, and I know he isn't in the bottom tiers like many bad Ness mains say. Ness' neutral game is better than many others, I know that much.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

really? what else could it be?

because fox has a more developed meta obviously. Like I thought it was obvious that the melee characters are going to seem slightly stronger in the meta at first because we know them better and everyone has like 5 years of practice for him. This is an established concept, Fox in early melee was considered not nearly as good as shiek before people got ridiculous with waveshining. Are you seriously suggesting that none of the PM characters if not many of them have mroe to offer once we learn the characters as well as we learn fox? If you need to ask that then just look at every other patch, where Fox always started in top tier until we found a different character within a few months that had something we never expected and then they jumped to top. Give it 3-4 years and we'll have that for at least half a dozen characters, though I expect more.

Ice Climbers are bottom 10

they're not bad, they're definitely viable, but they're bottom ten and will generally serve the same niche as they did in melee, as a weird character that a small amount of insane people play just because nothing else is quite like them

and they'll forever float by on matchup inexperience

I will never not think that a TAS ice climbers is top 5 simply due to all the options a perfect desync brings you

 

[Chevy]

Pretty sure Washington has almost 5(6?) GnW players that all have potential to be or already are PR status and they face eachother.

You ever wonder why we have so many successful GnW mains?
Seriously it's an infestation, send help.

 

[Warhawk]

idk if its good or just ok but I know it's not bad. Idk enough about Ness to debate but I know his neutral isn't ****, and I know he isn't in the bottom tiers like many bad Ness mains say. Ness' neutral game is better than many others, I know that much.

"I don't know enough to successfully judge whether it is good or bad but I know it isn't bad because its not"

I don't like doing that to people but I'm barely even putting any words in your mouth, you have to see how ridiculous this statement looks now that you've made it twice.

Also not having the worst neutral in the game doesn't mean your neutral isn't bad.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

If I applied your reasoning to why Ness' neutral is bad to GnW, GnW would have a crappier neutral than Ness.

idk if its good or just ok but I know it's not bad. Idk enough about Ness to debate but I know his neutral isn't ****, and I know he isn't in the bottom tiers like many bad Ness mains say. Ness' neutral game is better than many others, I know that much.

Yeah dude I can't see any scenario where Ness has a strong neutral whatsoever. 90 percent of my ness strats is to make sure he never ever wins neutral because his punishes smack link.

 

[foxygrandpa]

i thought i worded it pretty clearly. fox has a lot more capacity to win than other characters do in a relative way.

yeah sorry that was clear. Thanks.

Anyway, a lot of it comes down to fox just being so ridiculously popular.
I know players don't like to hear much about melee characters being pushed by their metagames, but honestly it's a reality, especially for fox who's combos/neutral are kind of similar in most matchups. The other melee characters (who aren't puff) fall into the same category. Do you think any peach players would be able to use float cancel proficiently if it wasn't being used for so many years?

There are plenty of characters on par (arguably, I know people don't like to admit their characters are good) with fox, but it's different for him in the sense that there are way more players pushing that character. Meta knight for example, I think is either as good or better, ROB (though I haven't played him with the changes, admittedly) is definitely up there as well but there's only 1-2 players with him, etc.

Again, you posted nothing about why Ness's neutral is good instead of bad.

For one, Ness is not that fast, and has very committal attacks. Dash dancing in place accomplishes very little because Ness's dash attack is very susceptible to CC and with proper SDI, you don't even get hit by the third hit of the dash attack which is the most important part of the move. If it's blocked, the move is also minus on block, making it easy to punish him. Sure, you can space it so the only part that hits is the third hit, but your opponent would have either got out of the way by jumping or just shields it anyways. Due to this, dash attacking is an incredibly huge risk, which, yes, although has good reward, does not justify how dangerous it is to use it. Another common Ness thing during dash dances is to DJC fair and bair but are also unsafe on block. (Not to mention, fair is VERY VERY susceptible to CC) Ness must put himself in danger multiple times just to get a hit that can potentially lead into a combo. He can also throw PK Fires, but the grounded version comes out way too slow and literally loses to short hop approaches, while the aerial one is just easily blockable due to the range that Ness has to use it just to be safe. This is why the only thing that he can do in any match up is to look threatening, and punish stupid mistakes. Once the opponent figures out that the character just about loses to every defensive option and/or just doesn't commit to anything, Ness is a lackluster character that shouldn't ever win.

I'm also going to point out that yes, Ness has mag dashing and it is + on block. However, the hitbox on the magnet is very tiny and requires him to put himself in range of any combo breaking move, but jumping out of shield easily reverts the situation back to neutral, and Ness does not have the best tools to punish players in the air due to the lack of disjoint on his aerial moves besides fair. He also kind of has "Peach syndrome" in that he loses to top platform camping just because his double jump is slow, similar to Peach.

IMO a character having a good neutral allows them to force the opponent to approach and/or allows them to approach well. Ness has neither of these things which is why we continue to say, "Ness doesn't have a good neutral." The ONLY time the opponent HAS To approach is if Ness is winning in % or stocks, but that advantage applies to every character in the game. If THAT'S the only thing that makes his neutral "good" then every character in the game has a "good" neutral.

I'll also add that if EX Fire is what makes Ness's neutral somewhat passable, then you're asking WAY too much out of Ness mains if you think doing consistent 1 frame tricks should be required.

Most characters have to put themselves in unsafe situations to start a combo. That's pretty universal.
Honestly, if you have a decent dash dance, you have enough tools in neutral to beat a lot of the cast. His neutral is underdeveloped, and it's a little bit different than most characters. Take a look at sheik, who's neutral is pretty much baiting and trying to approach with grabs until you can put a foot in their face. She also loses to CC at all percents, but people are able to make up for it with punishes/positioning. Ness is a highly technical character, and the fact that people think that there's not much left to figure out with him is ludicrous. Not to say I don't think he needs help, but he's not a "lackluster character that shouldn't ever win".


And yeah, platform camping hurts ness, but it really comes down to stage picking and the other character's vertical mobility, as with peach.

 

[Frost | Odds]

There are plenty of characters on par (arguably, I know people don't like to admit their characters are good) with fox, but it's different for him in the sense that there are way more players pushing that character.

This might be a credible claim if Fox had to do anything more complicated than laser (or platform) camp, and then DD/nairshine to be a vastly better character than 95% of the cast. That's not 'a pushed meta', that's just an incredibly simple, effective, braindead gameplan that requires very little adaptation by matchup and invalidates more than one character.

Stating that PM players haven't pushed their characters' metas past this extremely crude level is nothing short of patronizing and hugely insulting.

 

[Life]

I think ICs are super underrated, but I'm biased because one of our Melee players who plays PM casually finally decided to tryhard last weekend and play his main and double eliminated me LOL. Opinion pending me figuring out how to deal with Pit-ICs neutral because I'm reasonably certain I wasn't playing it right.

Anyway, Ness is pretty mediocre IMO.

 

[nimigoha]

This might be a credible claim if Fox had to do anything more complicated than laser (or platform) camp, and then DD/nairshine to be a vastly better character than 95% of the cast. That's not 'a pushed meta', that's just an incredibly simple, effective, braindead gameplan that requires very little adaptation by matchup and invalidates more than one character.

Stating that PM players haven't pushed their characters' metas past this extremely crude level is nothing short of patronizing and hugely insulting.

Nair is really freaking good.

Can we make laser do .2% at max range?

 

[frankxthexbunny]

This might be a credible claim if Fox had to do anything more complicated than laser (or platform) camp, and then DD/nairshine to be a vastly better character than 95% of the cast. That's not 'a pushed meta', that's just an incredibly simple, effective, braindead gameplan that requires very little adaptation by matchup and invalidates more than one character.

Stating that PM players haven't pushed their characters' metas past this extremely crude level is nothing short of patronizing and hugely insulting.

I'll never understand people who imply high level fox is braindead. I guess I just have to disagree in the fullest, and now that he's nerfed it's even further from the truth.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

You ever wonder why we have so many successful GnW mains?
Seriously it's an infestation, send help.

Pmdt is dispatching a ton of fire emblem and diddy kong to your area, don't worry, there is nothing to fear.

 

[Deleted member]

because fox has a more developed meta obviously.

this argument is pretty easily shot down though, because we dont get nearly the same results with other heavily developed melee top tiers, namely sheik marth falco. you show me a sheik or marth player in PM and i'll show you a quick 2-0, and let's be real here, i'm a pretty good player, but i'm not that good.

no one here could reasonably say the same for fox. fox is like, if you're one of the best players in the world, and round 4 someone you've never seen before sits down to play you and just kinda foxes at you and you lose, you can't really be surprised. and i can beat some of the other best players in the world with fox and i dont even play the character. you can only ignore stuff like that for so long.

i dont buy the "developed meta" crap and i never did. fox has to learn "PM jank" just like all the other characters. fox wins a ****ing lot more because the character is godly in a game full of otherwise reasonably balanced characters.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I don't believe Fox should be nerfed per say. He just needs his game plan to be refocused, like Wolf to some extent.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

this argument is pretty easily shot down though, because we dont get nearly the same results with other heavily developed melee top tiers, namely sheik marth falco. you show me a sheik or marth player in PM and i'll show you a quick 2-0, and let's be real here, i'm a pretty good player, but i'm not that good.

no one here could reasonably say the same for fox. fox is like, if you're one of the best players in the world, and round 4 someone you've never seen before sits down to play you and just kinda foxes at you and you lose, you can't really be surprised. and i can beat some of the other best players in the world with fox and i dont even play the character. you can only ignore stuff like that for so long.

i dont buy the "developed meta" crap and i never did. fox has to learn "PM jank" just like all the other characters. fox wins a ****ing lot more because the character is godly in a game full of otherwise reasonably balanced characters.

I think its more because marth and shiek's playstyles are far more matchup specific than fox, who really plays exactly the same no matter who you are fighting. I once again cite mewtwo, lucario, sonic, Pit, diddy, Zelda ect in previous patches. With time Fox becomes less relevant as soon as the meta develops, and then theyre nerfed and people go back to saying fox is best.

 

[Deleted member]

I think its more because marth and shiek's playstyles are far more matchup specific than fox, who really plays exactly the same no matter who you are fighting. I once again cite mewtwo, lucario, sonic, Pit, diddy, Zelda ect in previous patches. With time Fox becomes less relevant as soon as the meta develops, and then theyre nerfed and people go back to saying fox is best.

if the character never has to consider what the opponent is doing in any specific capacity, is that not also a huge red flag in terms of power level? if you can do the same **** regardless of what your opponent is doing? you never have to consider their gameplan and maybe alter your decision-making to negotiate it? thats so obviously and ridiculously problematic. how can you turn around and defend the character as not being braindead to play as?

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Fox is still the best in the game in my opinion, and small nerfs to his up-b or his shine, while nice, don't make Fox any worse. The thing that seperates Fox from all the other characters is that his neutral game is way too good. If some character is doing something, Fox is guaranteed to have an option to beat it 10/10 times, while other characters struggle heavily to beat it (CC is a good example). If people wanted to actually nerf Fox, trying to take away some of the sources of his neutral game, such as his high running speed, or ridiculous priority on his nair/utilt, would be the best way to go about it. This way his general gameplan and what makes Fox fun for some people is still in the game, but it's just a bit worse.

Ness can't really approach, he just kind of pokes at you from a distance with fair/pkf until you **** up. If you stand in the corner and wait for him to approach you, you'll most likely win. You can just shield his pkf, or CC his fair. He'd have to commit extremely hard by running up and grabbing, but it's hard to accomplish that because his grab range is sooooo small, and his run speed is sooooo slow. Ness has good options if the other player is approaching, but if they're just standing still, Ness has an extremely tough time doing anything.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

if the character never has to consider what the opponent is doing in any specific capacity, is that not also a huge red flag in terms of power level? if you can do the same **** regardless of what your opponent is doing? you never have to consider their gameplan and maybe alter your decision-making to negotiate it? thats so obviously and ridiculously problematic. how can you turn around and defend the character as not being braindead to play as?

Fox either can do the fox thing, and his matchups are fine-good, or he for some reason can't do the fox thing, and his matchup is bad-awful. The fact that his toolset is flexible enough to allow his matchups to be based upon whether or not he can play to his strengths isn't really surprising based upon the fact that he is a glass cannon, and ultimately the matchup spread is all that matters in the end. Fox is not the only character in the game at all that has to play the way he's meant to be played or else he gets bopped.

And I reiterate, in every patch so far fox proved to be not the best character, or even among the "broken" characters, every single patch. It'll be the same in this one. It'll be the same in the next one, because that's how glass cannons work.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Fox either can do the fox thing, and his matchups are fine-good, or he for some reason can't do the fox thing, and his matchup is bad-awful. The fact that his toolset is flexible enough to allow his matchups to be based upon whether or not he can play to his strengths isn't really surprising based upon the fact that he is a glass cannon, and ultimately the matchup spread is all that matters in the end. Fox is not the only character in the game at all that has to play the way he's meant to be played or else he gets bopped.

And I reiterate, in every patch so far fox proved to be not the best character, or even among the "broken" characters, every single patch. It'll be the same in this one. It'll be the same in the next one, because that's how glass cannons work.

Except the part where Fox doesn't have any losing MUs. His "bad" MUs are, at worst, 50/50.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'll never understand people who imply high level fox is braindead. I guess I just have to disagree in the fullest, and now that he's nerfed it's even further from the truth.

Not having to change your extremely simple gameplan according to the matchup is the very definition of braindead.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

Not having to change your extremely simple gameplan according to the matchup is the very definition of braindead.

Yes it is. Luckily for us it turns out Fox's gameplan isn't very simple. And if you try to throw a flowchart at me I'll do the same for any other character.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox either can do the fox thing, and his matchups are fine-good, or he for some reason can't do the fox thing, and his matchup is bad-awful. The fact that his toolset is flexible enough to allow his matchups to be based upon whether or not he can play to his strengths isn't really surprising based upon the fact that he is a glass cannon, and ultimately the matchup spread is all that matters in the end. Fox is not the only character in the game at all that has to play the way he's meant to be played or else he gets bopped.

And I reiterate, in every patch so far fox proved to be not the best character, or even among the "broken" characters, every single patch. It'll be the same in this one. It'll be the same in the next one, because that's how glass cannons work.

first of all, if you a "glass cannon", you're still a ****ing cannon

secondly, fox doesnt fit that at all, having literally the best defensive options in the entire game and a favorable combo weight to use it assuming you understand baby's first week of counterpicking. or maybe you dont and you just copy good players and get the benefit anyway.

third, there are no matchups where he "can't do the fox thing" because "the fox thing" is really busted and wins lots of tournaments, including lots of melee players that come in and win money in our game that don't even play PM. fox's MU spread is ridiculous because he already only loses to himself and people that are blatantly outplaying you to win (the baseline indicator of a losing MU is where you have to meaningfully outplay your opponent to win).

fourth, fox in PM can approach the game from several different methods and still have a reasonable shot of winning. some characters have to play optimally to win. most characters won't win even if they're being played optimally already.

fifth, in terms of raw output, fox has been the best character in every patch in a pretty non-debatable way. fox was the most winning character in 3.02 where a significant chunk of the cast had attributes that fundamentally broke how the entire franchise is played.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

first of all, if you a "glass cannon", you're still a ****ing cannon

secondly, fox doesnt fit that at all, having literally the best defensive options in the entire game and a favorable combo weight to use it assuming you understand baby's first week of counterpicking. or maybe you dont and you just copy good players and get the benefit anyway.

third, there are no matchups where he "can't do the fox thing" because "the fox thing" is really busted and wins lots of tournaments, including lots of melee players that come in and win money in our game that don't even play PM. fox's MU spread is ridiculous because he already only loses to himself and people that are blatantly outplaying you to win (the baseline indicator of a losing MU is where you have to meaningfully outplay your opponent to win).

fourth, fox in PM can approach the game from several different methods and still have a reasonable shot of winning. some characters have to play optimally to win. most characters won't win even if they're being played optimally already.

fifth, in terms of raw output, fox has been the best character in every patch in a pretty non-debatable way. fox was the most winning character in 3.02 where a significant chunk of the cast had attributes that fundamentally broke how the entire franchise is played.

oh so you actually think fox has no bad matchups? Ok well then there is simply nothing more that we can say to each other except that I believe he has many bad matchups.

It's curious to hear that you t hink the PM characters are already being played optimally. That was fast. Well let's wait a few months and see whether or not there's another character that shows up and embarrasses fox the way sonic did.

 

[Binary Clone]

oh so you actually think fox has no bad matchups? Ok well then there is simply nothing more that we can say to each other except that I believe he has many bad matchups.

You could say what you think those matchups are.

That would probably help.

 

[Tomaster]

Yes it is. Luckily for us it turns out Fox's gameplan isn't very simple. And if you try to throw a flowchart at me I'll do the same for any other character.

I used to think fox is the hardest character in the game, now I think he requires the fastest hands and has pretty hard tech, but he's definitely not he hardest (for me at least). After playing characters like mewtwo and lucario i realize that fox may be demanding technically, but he's not really that hard because there not much decision making involved with him. Basically he requires good fundamentals, but that's it. Anyone with good fundamentals can pick him up pretty easily. I'm not hating on fox, nor am I salty, I just think it's fair to say that fox's gameplan isn't very complex.. He basically goes in with the same plan against any character, adjusting slightly to their weight and abilities, but basically the same plan.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I'm still undecided on Fox. But can people please stop hiding behind "he's a glass canon" as a justification for anything fox related? I would argue with the recovery nerfs that Roy gets punished harder in almost every aspect harder than fox does by more characters. If fox has degenerate play in his kit, glass canon is not a legitimate argument to argue that its fine.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

You could say what you think those matchups are.

That would probably help.

samus, i'd argue still mewtwo, bowser (yes, bowser), falcon ROB maybe ike sonic zelda lucario maybe diddy possibly peach and falco

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I'm still undecided on Fox. But can people please stop hiding behind "he's a glass canon" as a justification for anything fox related? I would argue with the recovery nerfs that Roy gets punished harder in almost every aspect harder than fox does by more characters. If fox has degenerate play in his kit, glass canon is not a legitimate argument to argue that its fine.

A gets shot with a bullet, B only got punched in the face, so why is B complaining?
nerfs are nerfs man.

 

[Kipcom]

samus, i'd argue still mewtwo, bowser (yes, bowser), falcon ROB maybe ike sonic zelda lucario maybe diddy possibly peach and falco

You had me lost at Mewtwo, Bowser, Zelda, and Peach.

wtf

 

[Deleted member]

welp glad to know ive beaten some of the best players in the world in losing MUs with a character i dont play.

for real though fox is ike's worst MU by FAR

 

[Boiko]

How many times do I need to write essays explaining why Ness' neutral is bad? Let me put it simply, Ness has many different mix up options that make it seem like he has a good neutral. However, all of his mix up options lose to the same response from the opponent, and are all hard commitments. The thing about PM is that no character is truly awful (besides 3.6b Bowser, yikes). So Ness can catch you off guard sometimes and get a combo going. But then his combos lose to SDI or teching, yikes.

Regarding Fox, please nerf the priority on up tilt. That move is so insanely good and set ups for so much damage.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

You had me lost at Mewtwo, Bowser, Zelda, and Peach.

wtf

mewtwo is pretty universally accepted as hard for fox, bowser from experience with a few high level bowser mains (and searching the fox forums) peach because peach is stronger and fox is weaker and it was a 40 60 before, and zelda was a shot in the dark

 

[Tomaster]

samus, i'd argue still mewtwo, bowser (yes, bowser), falcon ROB maybe ike sonic zelda lucario maybe diddy possibly peach and falco

Most of the Mewtwo community thinks the matchup is even, I think it's slightly in fox's favor on most stages because he kills so fast and wins the neutral. Mewtwo has a great punish on fox but i just don't think that's enough to make up for the disadvantages.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

welp glad to know ive beaten some of the best players in the world in losing MUs with a character i dont play.

for real though fox is ike's worst MU by FAR

Ike was another I got from the forums, I don't actually know the matchup well enough outside of Ally and the things he does to foxes

Most of the Mewtwo community thinks the matchup is even, I think it's slightly in fox's favor on most stages because he kills so fast and wins the neutral. Mewtwo has a great punish on fox but i just don't think that's enough to make up for the disadvantages.

He doesn't kill as quickly as he used to and mewtwo's edgeguarding is really strong even against fox, he's like a jigglypuff who can actually use offense

 

[nimigoha]

Fox's advantage in the neutral is incredibly simple. He can run and gun, but as soon as he decides to go in on you he's like on your face with his Nair because his run speed is crazy, and Nair is strong and has great hitbox placement. From there, how the stock goes depends on that person's punish game. But if they lose, they don't have to fight as hard as other characters to get back in.

Nerf Fox all you want but unless his Usmash kills at 155% or his neutral is significantly worse, very little will actually happen.

 

[Kipcom]

Fox's upsmash still kills quickly on floaties like Mewtwo. Fox's uair is also the same, so yeah, as long as he has uthrow -> uair, he kills as quickly as he used to.

(I'm not necessarily complaining about Fox, I just don't agree with a lot of characters you'd consider bad for Fox.)

Fox can still do the same stuff vs peach that he does in Melee and Peach hardly got that much stronger. Also in PM, you can't buffer rolls with an item in your hand while shielding (c stick will make you throw the item oos), so Peach basically goes through hell if she decides to pull a turnip and Fox wants to go in. I think that Peach does better for sure, but I wouldn't call it a winning MU in her favor.

 

[AceGamer]

He still kills Mewtwo fairly quickly since he's on the light side and edge guarding only counts if you can get Fox off stage which if being played properly won't happen often unless the Fox player is dumb enough to attack Mewtwo while he's near the ledge. Almost everyone in the cast can edge guard Fox so it doesn't put the match up that much in any characters favor

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I'll say it 1000 times, Fox wasn't the best character in any of the patches. 3.0 mewtwo pit and diddy destroyed fox, and 2.5 sonic, and lucario in 3.5 was quickly rising to great heights. Fox has bad matchups now already and I will not budge on the fact that we have in no way grown 3/4 as familiar with any of the characters as we are with fox. If six months from now there is no character who out of the blue turns out to be amazing feel free to call me an idiot, but until then my statement that fox will be usurped is proved by precedent.

And everyone said fox was best in those matches because of his win ratio, which didn't take into account ratio of players familiar with fox vs any other character.

 

[Tomaster]

He doesn't kill as quickly as he used to and mewtwo's edgeguarding is really strong even against fox, he's like a jigglypuff who can actually use offense

That's true, however, mewtwo has less aerial mobility and slower spacing moves (generally). So it's harder to poke fox's zone, which makes the neutral even harder than for puff. Also mewtwo has no rest... Which is pretty important to puff in the matchup. Edgeguarding is indeed a great strength for mewtwo in the matchup, but good foxes are harder to edgeguard than it seems. Frozen seems pretty consistent at it so idk, I haven't seen him play against any great foxes yet tho...

Edit: and yea Acegamer makes a good point, good foxes don't generally hang out around the ledge, it's not that easy to get them in an edgeguard situation unless you combo them into it which isn't easy either..