Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

but his new recovery is free to edgegaurd

his recovery has been butts forever that aint an excuse anymore

 

[MrLul]

his recovery has been butts forever that aint an excuse anymore

i think his tether recovery is better

 

[Saproling]

Ivysaur has a lot wrong with her to be better than any of them mainly she has no real approaches at low percent and her neutral game consists of bait and punish with wavedash back with very light poking which anyone can do **** like that with better tools along side that.She has no real way to pry you open and only other characters that are considered weak have trouble with her walling.This character is loosely viable if you don't mind taking leaps of faith for getting a stock/recovering.

 

[Soft Serve]

Do ppl really think diddy is best in the game

If spacies didn't exist I would thinks so too

 

[eideeiit]

@ MrLul

Could you give some thing to support these claims of yours, because atm you're pretty much doing nothing more than 1flow if you read that whole fiasco.

Especially the Ness claims, cause even someone like me can draw the conclusion of a character being bad when one of his best neutral tools (pkf) loses hard to shields and is reactable (20f start up and travel time).

 

[MrLul]

@ MrLul

Could you give some thing to support these claims of yours, because atm you're pretty much doing nothing more than 1flow if you read that whole fiasco.

Especially the Ness claims, cause even someone like me can draw the conclusion of a character being bad when one of his best neutral tools (pkf) loses hard to shields and is reactable (20f start up and travel time).

Just because Ness mains are bad at the neutral game doesn't mean Ness has a bad one.

 

[eideeiit]

Just because Ness mains are bad at the neutral game doesn't mean Ness has a bad one.

So what tools do you think are so severely underutilized to make you say this?

 

[Rizner]

Wario was placed high because of a couple of reasons. Firstly, he's got really good grabs and a few good aerials that help him out a bit. The thing about him that ranks him high is that he has a few things that make him very dangerous. Firstly, his waft is so, so, so damn strong. An enemy can't do much to prevent him from getting it and once he has it all he really needs to do is land a grab or a bite and you'll probably get killed at low percentages. His shoulder bash is also a good killing move, especially with the ability to jump and can clank with many moves in the game. His Dair, while risky, can edgeguard a lot of characters if he spaces it right and can kill early. His recovery can be stopped pretty easily with some characters but can be tricky to guard.

From what i've played/seen/discussed/etc with Wario he feels pretty solid. If waft or shoulder bash ever get nerfed I'd probably drop him to A tier but he'd still be strong.

Samus is also up there because she's annoying to kill and can have some crazy pressure with missiles. A lot of her aerials help her combo and cover space well. Her recovery is really damn hard to play against because of her bombs delaying her landing and because of her weight. She isn't the fastest of characters and she doesn't have very obvious kill moves like Fox but she definitely belongs in the higher of A tier. I can't really place a finger on specifically as to why she's strong because I suck playing her but she doesn't seem to hold the same feeling as A- and she definitely doesn't feel like a B tier.

Pit was placed in lower A because he feels really good. No bad/laggy moves, good recovery, nice aerials and good projectile pressure. Funnily enough, I'm not quite sure where he belongs. He does not feel bad in the slightest and doesn't show any similarities of B tier characters. That said, I haven't seen much 3.6 Pit so I can't judge him too well. Also I may have put Kirby a bit higher from bias because I love the puff ball too damn much. Kirby Air Ride 2003. Good times.



Falco's neutral game isn't bad at all. Assuming you were also including my tier (I guess this is one of those days where everyone decides to post tiers. not sure if you saw mine lol) Fox/Wolf aren't that much above Falco. They are only above him very slightly because they lack the negatives that he seems to have. It's literally just a difference of a few points. Also offstage is a huge factor as to tier placement. You can be amazing onstage and have a good neutral but it doesn't matter because you won't play neutral perfect all the time and when you screw up there goes a stock because it's just 1-2-3 and you're dead. He's by no means "tiers" below Fox/Wolf though.

Cool, ty. I personally think wario side b is really good in some matchups, but usually gets more out of incorrect decisions of opponents. People with disjoint (read: swords) shouldn't worry too much about it.

For Samus and Pit, I don't know where I'd put them. Pit because, like you, I don't have much experience with. Hopefully I'll get some games in against more pit at the next wavedash Wednesday. Samus I do have some experience against, but pretty sure I hard counter the usual way Samus plays matchups. Because of this it'll take more for me to get a good grasp of where she might stand.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Nausicaa]

Samus is OP top 5 material.

Ness doesn't have a sword and isn't from space so obviously can't be top.

Pit is solid middle of the Melee-top type of character.

Ivy isn't threatening at all, and only wins when people treat her like she's threatening. Whether in neutral, edge-guarding her, approaching her, whatever.
Bowser gimp-game and long combo-strings, basically a small Bowser...
Her zoning isn't strong enough to hold people back, and gets out-zoned by other zoners.
Her counter-options are lacking and basically folds to any kind of mixed approach, pressure, speed, pokes, etc.
She can't get in on others, and can't stop people from getting in on her.

Still good though. Bowser works with basically the same set of functions swapped around a bit. Long damaging strings to short bursts, off-stage walling edge-guards to on-stage body-blocking. etc

 

[Yung Mei]

Honestly, if G&W couldn't jump out of up-b, I think everything would be less frustrating to deal with.

http://gfycat.com/UnimportantUnripeBarnacle
http://gfycat.com/GrayAngryBarebirdbat
http://gfycat.com/BraveTatteredHarrier
http://gfycat.com/YellowJauntyBighornedsheep

You up+b to escape a combo/pressure situation: "Oh, it hit at 130%? Okay, let me just double jump nair/fair for the kill while I'm at it."
You hit the opponent too high for a regular double jump follow up: "Okay, let me just up+b into them then double jump aerial."

It's not intuitive at all.

ive been playin game & watch for over 3 years now, and ive seen a lot of people say his **** was op despite it not being OP (except fat bacon, that **** was unbelievably dumb)

and this is literally the single worst example of "Game & Watch is op wahhhhh!!!!!!!" ive ever seen

of course you'd chose ONLY clips where he doesn't DI the up b hit AT ALL

 

[EmptySky00]

Game and Watch gets slandered so effing hard lol. Come on guys jump off the homie's **** and ***** about someone new. I volunteer Link if it'll get you people to sing a new tune Jesus Christ.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ive been playin game & watch for over 3 years now, and ive seen a lot of people say his **** was op despite it not being OP (except fat bacon, that **** was unbelievably dumb)

and this is literally the single worst example of "Game & Watch is op wahhhhh!!!!!!!" ive ever seen

of course you'd chose ONLY clips where he doesn't DI the up b hit AT ALL

There are times when no DI will save you from a follow-up off up-b. Except good SDI of course, which can save you from almost anything. BRB finding the thread about this

My original thread on it
http://smashboards.com/threads/about-throws-and-up-b-and-the-reddit-thread-on-diing-them.404608/
Magus's response indicating the lack winning DI options when up-b is angled correctly against bad DI on his throw mix-ups (which is easy to force since it's a 3 way DI mix-up meaning with random DI of left/right/none you're getting combod easy 2/3 times)
http://smashboards.com/threads/abou...it-thread-on-diing-them.404608/#post-19307194

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

ive been playin game & watch for over 3 years now, and ive seen a lot of people say his **** was op despite it not being OP (except fat bacon, that **** was unbelievably dumb)

and this is literally the single worst example of "Game & Watch is op wahhhhh!!!!!!!" ive ever seen

of course you'd chose ONLY clips where he doesn't DI the up b hit AT ALL

While I agree that the complaints about GnW are a bit overblown, reacting to a move that's that fast to avoid the followup isn't something you can always do. You don't know when exactly he will up b, and since you're not expecting him to do that, you can't really DI it. Not to mention that he can immediately convert to another aerial afterwards, so even if you do DI it right, he can still follow it and hit you with fair, or just reset to neutral. Also that last clip showed him getting up thrown into an up b, completely impossible to tell which direction he will be throwing you because the animation and speed of all of his throw directions are identical
No one is saying that he's OP. He just has some silly things about him that could afford to be looked at. I think it's interesting that we have a character with unusual properties (I like how his hitboxes don't really make sense or his attacks linger; they're just quirky things about the character that can be countered with enough research and are fine), but things like same throw animations and up b escapes into a nair are a bit silly (I say this as a Luigi main with a frame 3 nair to escape combos, but even I think the knocback of sweet spot luigi nair is dumb. Although nair is useless against disjointed hitboxes and has a lot of commitment to it, wheras gnw up b is safer and isn't really effected by extended hitboxes).

 

[frankxthexbunny]

I volunteer Link if it'll get you people to sing a new tune Jesus Christ.

plz no

 

[dirtboy345]

Speaking of design philosophy, can any pmdt tell me why low KBG with moderate BKB moves are essentially going extinct? In all recent patches, all I see are moves getting less bkb and more KBG as compensation

I don't understand why having reliable combos at even high % on floatiest and lower % on fast fallers is such a bad thing.

Grabs are easy to understandunderstand, but doing it to every move seems bad to me

Basically... Squirtle's down smash got ****ing destroyed so it could be "more like Pikas, ROBs, and Bowsers" except being 3x slower

 

[TheGravyTrain]

No dirt, we can't have smashes comboing people, that will confuse them... We wouldn't want anything interesting or unique about any character because then people actually need to learn the matchup... Smh

 

[dirtboy345]

No dirt, we can't have smashes comboing people, that will confuse them... We wouldn't want anything interesting or unique about any character because then people actually need to learn the matchup... Smh

So instead it won't combo OR kill people despite coming out at frame 16!

 

[foxygrandpa]

people dont get it because its wrong. just because the tiers are closer doesnt discount the idea that the remaining discrepancy is a huge source of margin in terms of real performance. thats why everyone in this thread mutually understands why red1's link and junebug's ganondorf are all godly, and why we all know we could randomly lose to like 30 fox players and not give it any merit. how good your character is has a huge impact on your performance, which is why the idea of a player being a "fraud" after a character nerf is ludicrous. it's also why a lot of people say that PM is the devil's bargain- perform "too well" and your character gets nerfed. we have all watched these things happen publicly for the last 3 years or so.

If someone's losing to 30 fox players and not giving it any merit, it means they need to improve. Fox is definitely a contender for top (I personally think mk and wolf are better), but he's not an auto-win, or lucifer himself.

 

[Deleted member]

If someone's losing to 30 fox players and not giving it any merit, it means they need to improve. Fox is definitely a contender for top (I personally think mk and wolf are better), but he's not an auto-win, or lucifer himself.

nah, you get to the point in this game when 1 or 0 people in the world can beat you on any given character, and then like 30 foxes. thats just the truth, for now anyway.

 

[frankxthexbunny]

nah, you get to the point in this game when 1 or 0 people in the world can beat you on any given character, and then like 30 foxes. thats just the truth, for now anyway.

this is true, but not for tier reasons.

 

[DrinkingFood]

dunno, I haven't lost to any foxes yet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDIT: Actually I lost to mango when I was really ****ty back at WHOBO MLG

 

[MrLul]

While I agree that the complaints about GnW are a bit overblown, reacting to a move that's that fast to avoid the followup isn't something you can always do. You don't know when exactly he will up b, and since you're not expecting him to do that, you can't really DI it. Not to mention that he can immediately convert to another aerial afterwards, so even if you do DI it right, he can still follow it and hit you with fair, or just reset to neutral. Also that last clip showed him getting up thrown into an up b, completely impossible to tell which direction he will be throwing you because the animation and speed of all of his throw directions are identical
No one is saying that he's OP. He just has some silly things about him that could afford to be looked at. I think it's interesting that we have a character with unusual properties (I like how his hitboxes don't really make sense or his attacks linger; they're just quirky things about the character that can be countered with enough research and are fine), but things like same throw animations and up b escapes into a nair are a bit silly (I say this as a Luigi main with a frame 3 nair to escape combos, but even I think the knocback of sweet spot luigi nair is dumb. Although nair is useless against disjointed hitboxes and has a lot of commitment to it, wheras gnw up b is safer and isn't really effected by extended hitboxes).

how play gnw up b

 

[DrinkingFood]

how play gnw up b

What if platform
What if up-b hits me
What if he comes down with fair and I don't shield
What if he comes down with nothing and I wait for the fair
What if I try to hit him before the fair but he hits me with dair as he comes down
What if I try to hit him before the fair but he double jumps and I whiff and then he hits me
What if I try to wait for the dair but he doesn't dair
What if Up-b is actually as stupid as we think it is

 

[Deleted member]

this is true, but not for tier reasons.

really? what else could it be?

 

[MrLul]

What if platform
What if up-b hits me
What if he comes down with fair and I don't shield
What if he comes down with nothing and I wait for the fair
What if I try to hit him before the fair but he hits me with dair as he comes down
What if I try to hit him before the fair but he double jumps and I whiff and then he hits me
What if I try to wait for the dair but he doesn't dair
What if Up-b is actually as stupid as we think it is

what if you learned how to punish people being above you. up b is dumb, but u can still **** him up if he mindlessly does it.

 

[Deleted member]

How Can G&W's UpB Be Real If We Aren't Real?

 

[foxygrandpa]

nah, you get to the point in this game when 1 or 0 people in the world can beat you on any given character, and then like 30 foxes. thats just the truth, for now anyway.

Could you reiterate what you're saying? I kind of understand what you're saying but I don't really want to make a point until I'm wholly sure what you mean.

 

[Deleted member]

Could you reiterate what you're saying? I kind of understand what you're saying but I don't really want to make a point until I'm wholly sure what you mean.

i thought i worded it pretty clearly. fox has a lot more capacity to win than other characters do in a relative way.

 

[Zoa]

So when can we see another Lunchables/Strong Bad tier list?

 

[Strong Badam]

I'll make one when it's been long enough since 3.6full release. I need to see gameplay of certain characters in a field representative of the metagame first. Expect one after Paragon.

 

[Deleted member]

I made a tier list a while ago in 5 minutes, it was based off of 3.6b

I'll probably end up posting that tier list and then a more finalized one sometime after paragon, comparing the two to see the differences in both my opinion + how characters changed from beta to full

 

[PlateProp]

The stand to my monitor somehow fell off

For whatever reason though, asus made it so that you have to screw into the stand (from the inside of the monitor)

What the actual ****

 

[DrinkingFood]

Not the social thread plateprop

what if you learned how to punish people being above you. up b is dumb, but u can still **** him up if he mindlessly does it.

Not many characters can account for all his possible dair spacings. Dair is disjointed enough and lingers long enough that it can force a trade even vs many disjointed upairs. Trading out of a combo on GnW means he escapes the punish.
Very few characters at all can account for double jump vs no double jump. It's not as simple as "punishing someone for being above you". If you try to punish him for being above you, and miss because he double jumped, GnW's short double jump is the perfect height (read: really short) to come down on top of you immediately after and punish your failed punish. If you wait for the double jump, he has the option to just not double jump and then he'll land while you're waiting.
Catching him for being above you is mix-ups on mix-ups, and the option that gets the opponent least ****ed up for punishing GnW is just trying to bait out everything and hoping GnW does everything. That basically means it's in GnWs favor for the opponent to do anything short of exhausting all his options (meaning literally not even up-bing sometimes because some characters can't even avoid a trade with it or can't continue combos without putting themselves in the way of the up-b), giving them good reason to drop the combo past the first few hits.
Punishing GnW's Up-b sure is more difficult for EVERYONE than GnW mains say it is. What if the truth is, there ARE people with experience in the GnW matchup, and GnW secretly just is bull**** in almost every way (regardless of how good he is or isn't)? After all, how many GnWs have experience against their own character? To suggest you know how to beat your own character with other people's characters better than they know how to beat your character with their character is to suggest you have more/better MU knowledge from their end then they do, when GnW mains are mostly going to have MU exp from their own end.

 

[PlateProp]

Not the social thread plateprop

every thread is social thread

sb dont kill me idk how that actually happened

 

[Akhenderson]

I find it absolutely hilarious that every GnW thinks the Ness/GnW match up isn't even that bad. The fact that all Ness can do in that match up is literally wait for GnW to commit to something should be a testament as to how horrible it can be. Ness has no tools to pressure that GnW can just UP B safely out of. PKT anti air attempts just get eaten by bucket, dair stuffs out our uair, all of our aerials (besides maybe fair) lose to GnW fair, magnet doesn't absorb bacon, and GnW kills earlier than we do. I dunno. Maybe I'm bad, but I've played against Calpico who's a decent GnW and Pikmon, who's an up and comer GnW that suddenly started blowing high ranked people up with his GnW.

So, for everyone who thinks Ness isn't "That bad." Care to give explanations? We already know that he has a great punish game. but everytime I hear "Ness's neutral is underrated, it isn't even that bad," there has to be something that we're not utilizing. Clearly, if out neutral isn't that bad, those people that say probably know something about it, but just won't tell anyone about it.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Ice Climbers are bottom 10

they're not bad, they're definitely viable, but they're bottom ten and will generally serve the same niche as they did in melee, as a weird character that a small amount of insane people play just because nothing else is quite like them

and they'll forever float by on matchup inexperience

 

[jtm94]

Pretty sure Washington has almost 5(6?) GnW players that all have potential to be or already are PR status and they face eachother.

Someone higher on my PR is away for the summer, but he used GnW and I've never lost to him using Sheik though he consistently does better than me in placings and beating players that I lose to.

GnW's double jump doesn't go high enough to escape a lot of the disjointed uairs. Or you can do rising uair and catch up to him mid jump. Or you can play ROB and just SideB away from the confrontation so you don't have to play smash anymore. The game isn't so cut and dry that you can objectively state that GnW will always escape aerial juggles while he retains his DJ by following a simple flow chart of options. There are legitimately dumb things about my character like his animations being unreliable or the weird landing hitboxes. You could talk about how he's hard to edgeguard because he has no landing lag on his UpB because he can act out of it like only a select few can. I don't think the game is nearly developed to the point to clearly denote any situation as it should always happen via optimal play, this is not 20XX.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

but can luigi nair out of gnw up-b strings

he usually can

therefore gnw is bad

 

[MrLul]

Not many characters can account for all his possible dair spacings. Dair is disjointed enough and lingers long enough that it can force a trade even vs many disjointed upairs. Trading out of a combo on GnW means he escapes the punish.
Very few characters at all can account for double jump vs no double jump. It's not as simple as "punishing someone for being above you". If you try to punish him for being above you, and miss because he double jumped, GnW's short double jump is the perfect height (read: really short) to come down on top of you immediately after and punish your failed punish. If you wait for the double jump, he has the option to just not double jump and then he'll land while you're waiting.
Catching him for being above you is mix-ups on mix-ups, and the option that gets the opponent least ****ed up for punishing GnW is just trying to bait out everything and hoping GnW does everything. That basically means it's in GnWs favor for the opponent to do anything short of exhausting all his options (meaning literally not even up-bing sometimes because some characters can't even avoid a trade with it or can't continue combos without putting themselves in the way of the up-b), giving them good reason to drop the combo past the first few hits.

Reacting to weather he dairs or double jumps is super easy. Cover all options, don't use an aerial that can get you punished if you mess up a read. There's no way to get a guaranteed punish on it but he's in a really bad situation, just like all characters are if they're above you. What you should be doing is baiting out dair/jump and reacting accordingly. When he dairs hes stuck in the dair animation which lasts for ****ing ever and you can hit him from the sides or the tiny part under his dair where hes vulnerable, if he jumps, he has no jump you just have to bait out b reverses and aerials.

Punishing GnW's Up-b sure is more difficult for EVERYONE than GnW mains say it is. What if the truth is, there ARE people with experience in the GnW matchup, and GnW secretly just is bull**** in almost every way (regardless of how good he is or isn't)? After all, how many GnWs have experience against their own character? To suggest you know how to beat your own character with other people's characters better than they know how to beat your character with their character is to suggest you have more/better MU knowledge from their end then they do, when GnW mains are mostly going to have MU exp from their own end.

All characters have tools to punish it following what I just said lmao. Also, ROB is way more bull**** than GnW
is

TL;DR You shouldn't commit to one option when punishing GnW in the air after he uses UP B-ULL****

I find it absolutely hilarious that every GnW thinks the Ness/GnW match up isn't even that bad. The fact that all Ness can do in that match up is literally wait for GnW to commit to something should be a testament as to how horrible it can be. Ness has no tools to pressure that GnW can just UP B safely out of. PKT anti air attempts just get eaten by bucket, dair stuffs out our uair, all of our aerials (besides maybe fair) lose to GnW fair, magnet doesn't absorb bacon, and GnW kills earlier than we do. I dunno. Maybe I'm bad, but I've played against Calpico who's a decent GnW and Pikmon, who's an up and comer GnW that suddenly started blowing high ranked people up with his GnW.

So, for everyone who thinks Ness isn't "That bad." Care to give explanations? We already know that he has a great punish game. but everytime I hear "Ness's neutral is underrated, it isn't even that bad," there has to be something that we're not utilizing. Clearly, if out neutral isn't that bad, those people that say probably know something about it, but just won't tell anyone about it.

Maybe most Ness mains are bad and don't have a neutral game so they blame their char. Bad neutral game isn't an excuse for any char, especially Ness because compared to tons of other chars has a really good neutral.

 

[Nausicaa]

but can luigi nair out of gnw up-b strings

he usually can

therefore gnw is bad

Then he can Up-B to follow

and kill G&W at 15%

G&W new bottom 1