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Tier List Speculation

Poilu

Smash Cadet
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No seriously guys, why are you all putting Chard this low ? He has really great tools and is the best designed fatty IMO. I think he should be top 15 or something.
I think Zen's chard shows how much Chard can be good if in good hands.
A random example I found after searching for 5 min : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5POl7EVyaY&list=PLoDMwuM2R7osHTjgizrSFIYAlnZ1E5Clv (Second game, the first one isn't relevant)
 

Doctor Aids

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That philosophy seems like it would definitely polarize more MUs that it would help though

It also seems like it just makes characters only fish for grabs at higher % if no combo moves work anymore and their kill moves are too committal for general use
Yeah it could have those kind of effects but I'd honestly rather see that than unintuitive combos all game, there could be some moves with low KBG but if you make too many then all that's going to happen is people abusing the same combo all game. By having most moves have more KBG it allows players to put more thought into the game rather than abusing autocombos. There really isn't a problem with a few moves having low KBG but they would have to be careful with it otherwise a character could become too centralized around one move/combo that it really just wouldn't make a player think anymore.
 

DrinkingFood

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Dynamic KB scaling makes each move have more utility but be less good at doing any particular thing, their effectiveness being measured in what percent range they can do something at. Tilts getting lower BKB and more KBG for example become better at killing floaties at high percent, better at resetting KB on FFers to drop them back down to the ground, and worse at following-up into the same move at every percent, while also opening up a larger variety of follow-ups at different percents on a large variety of characters. It also encourages the use or more tools at varying percents, which makes the gameplay overall more varied and asks more game knowledge of the players. There's no "answer" as to why more moves are being made that way, other than PMDT decided that they want to emphasize KB scaling as much as possible in a game about KB scaling. Anytime in game design there's no right or wrong answer, there's only an answer that meets your goals for the mechanic. And if there's still no right or wrong answer, you redefine or clarify your goals. Most moves remaining with fairly static knockback curves either have lower angles such that proper DI only guarantees a good stagger (but it's an equally good stagger at most percents) or limited coverage. Dtilts that only cover the ground tend to have low KB growth (Roy's for example), utilts that only hit straight up rather than arc seem to commonly have low growth and high BKB (ROB's for example). Consistency in design is good in a game like smash where the mechanics make consistent scenarios very uncommon, assuming you want the game to develop at any reasonable pace.
 
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Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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So why does it seem as though the high tiers get to basically ignore this design goal

Fox up throw up air and wave shine

Falco shine dair over and over

Falcon up throw

Toon link bombs

Rob d throw

Lucario in general


This design goal had only seemed to make bad characters worse. or just not better if not worse

Hell, ness new d throw stats directly go against this design goal.

If the worry is that the combo will be too focused on, then the DT could simply make the combo weak or actually give the character other tools worth using. This is exactly the case with DDD right now imo.

They wanted to fix his dair to meet goals but then realized, whether with the help of my post or not, that DDD would have no other tools worth using except waddles f tilt and grab.
 
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DrinkingFood

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Almost every character has something that ignores the rule lol. It's a rule of thumb, not a universal rule, and it's okay for characters to have exceptions; to me it makes sense to start characters off from following the rule in totality, then readjust some tools to violate it to liven up their toolset or fill in gaps. Were I to make a game from scratch that's probably how I'd do it. But PMDT is working largely from characters with precedence, which is harder to ignore. It depends on the character's archetype and what tools they are supposed to use to make solid punishments off at low percents vs what tools are low reward pokes that aren't great until high percents vs what tools can convert at mid percents only. Grabs are generally more commitment and less coverage than tilts, especially on slow or slow-ish characters so it makes sense that they get more strongly rewarded. Tools like throwable projectiles have more set-up required and leave your character vulnerable just for the time it takes to make the throw available. As for falcon, throws are his only real reliable conversion tool tbh, short of dair. Ness throws are also some of his only "reliable" tools. But don't ask me to defend melee top/high tier design lol. If it were up to me, grounded shine from fox would have KB growth as well so it never connects into usmash at kill percents, but opens up waveshining options at low percents on light characters. Uair would also see reduced KB across all percentages, making it not kill at combo percent from uthrow on more characters. But I doubt PMDT would go for that. Even if I was on PMDT it's not like one person has control there.

Geez. Edited to be understandable
 
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tasteless gentleman

Smash Journeyman
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492
He's still slow, fat, easy to combo, easy to camp, easy to grab, tends to lose neutral, etc. He's better than he was, but a neat little tool like KK dthrow isn't going to pop him up that much. He's useable, at least, but still not a very good character.
I still think a projectile that consumes projectiles will help or something to prevent camp outs
 

frankxthexbunny

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I would really like to hear more thoughts on sonic because with his excellent mixups, amazing movement, decent punishes, and stellar edgeguarding i'm not so sure why he's rated so low
 

Nausicaa

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Are we intentionally posting joke tier lists? I don't get whats going on here.
That being said I think the prospect of making a tier list for PM at the moment is hilarious/impossible in and of itself. Not enough data, not enough good players, not enough time since changes, too balanced, etc etc. So yeah, my list is mainly for fun as I hope are most people's.
Agreed, in a way.

I know nothing about olimar lol.
Could probably do with a Tier List without him then.
Seems almost everyone posting these things should leave characters OUT.

No seriously guys, why are you all putting Chard this low ? He has really great tools and is the best designed fatty IMO. I think he should be top 15 or something.
I think Zen's chard shows how much Chard can be good if in good hands.
A random example I found after searching for 5 min : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5POl7EVyaY&list=PLoDMwuM2R7osHTjgizrSFIYAlnZ1E5Clv (Second game, the first one isn't relevant)
Only 15 characters can be Top 15.

Leave 15 OUT of a list and he's sure to get a spot.
Maybe people won't think being bottom 15 means they can't be good in good hands.

Falco is worse than Wolf/Fox due to needing to play around a lock-down game, which is a lot tougher when characters are good and have too many options to properly lock-down and choke-out. It has nothing to do with punish, edge-guarding, neutral, defense, or anything specifically, but the way his entire game works within all these areas. Evasiveness, stale-mating interaction, locking-options down. Falco is the 3rd, guess the other 2.
 

The Baron

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I would really like to hear more thoughts on sonic because with his excellent mixups, amazing movement, decent punishes, and stellar edgeguarding i'm not so sure why he's rated so low
The most common reason I hear is because he loses to hitboxes, and after watching getting rekt, and the getting my run back against scatts sonic, I'm not to sure I agree. He's stupid fast and stupid tricky. They're are so many fake outs mixups, approaches etc that you can do that it's rediculous. Coupled with the fact that he can just carry you to the blastzone, he really does hit on all sixes. However, one thing I noticed is that just like weegee, if you choke his ground movement he's pretty boned. Lasers, swords and sex kicks are usually effective enough and since those are making up the top tiers and most commonly played characters, I don't think the meta agrees with him right now. I still think he's very good, definitely top 15, but he still loses to some frequently played characters which I think hurts his placing.
 

Nausicaa

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Spaceswords

Which characters have NO CHANCE of being a potential candidate for the illusory top 15?
 

The Baron

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Spaceswords

Which characters have NO CHANCE of being a potential candidate for the illusory top 15?
DK

To be honest with PM power levels so high, it really is hard to tell who is actually bad. I feel like there are gatekeepers (marth) but even thise are hard to categorize
 
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frankxthexbunny

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The most common reason I hear is because he loses to hitboxes, and after watching getting rekt, and the getting my run back against scatts sonic, I'm not to sure I agree. He's stupid fast and stupid tricky. They're are so many fake outs mixups, approaches etc that you can do that it's rediculous. Coupled with the fact that he can just carry you to the blastzone, he really does hit on all sixes. However, one thing I noticed is that just like weegee, if you choke his ground movement he's pretty boned. Lasers, swords and sex kicks are usually effective enough and since those are making up the top tiers and most commonly played characters, I don't think the meta agrees with him right now. I still think he's very good, definitely top 15, but he still loses to some frequently played characters which I think hurts his placing.
Well yeah sonic loses to hitboxes but if you're rushing into hitboxes you are kind of playing the character wrong. I feel like melee falcon has kind of ruined people's opinion of bait and punish characters, which is silly because the only reason falcon couldnt do well consistently in melee was because his style and movement didn't fit how few mixups he had (at least compared to sonic) and his recovery was awful (unlike sonic). Sometimes I feel like tier lists are made in respect to every character on tilt/rushdown rather than them being played how their movesets accentuate their strengths, and I once again blame melee for this. Sonic not only has the speed of falcon, but he also has momentum shifts and mixups beyond nearly any other character. He has so much flexibility in his punishes and neutral that he can play the bait and punish style in a way no other character can, and on top of that his recovery is so good that he can make it back onto stage in almost any situation, and he can out edge guard jigglypuff if played effectively. His only problems are his decently weak attacks (edgeguarding and bair are pretty much his only consistent kills, though you can always do the good old u-air up-b u-air combo) and that he dies if someone sneezes on him, which if youre playing sonic properly you should be avoiding damage pretty damn well. For these reasons, and a few others I expect if 3.6 lasted another year or two he'd be in everyone's high tier list due to some random sonic player baiting swordsman and edgeguarding spacies into oblivion.


I'll admit floaties are a pain for him but I see nothing unwinnable at all.
 
D

Deleted member

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"low" on a PM list does not mean the character is bad. Not sure when people will get this.
people dont get it because its wrong. just because the tiers are closer doesnt discount the idea that the remaining discrepancy is a huge source of margin in terms of real performance. thats why everyone in this thread mutually understands why red1's link and junebug's ganondorf are all godly, and why we all know we could randomly lose to like 30 fox players and not give it any merit. how good your character is has a huge impact on your performance, which is why the idea of a player being a "fraud" after a character nerf is ludicrous. it's also why a lot of people say that PM is the devil's bargain- perform "too well" and your character gets nerfed. we have all watched these things happen publicly for the last 3 years or so.
 

frankxthexbunny

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people dont get it because its wrong. just because the tiers are closer doesnt discount the idea that the remaining discrepancy is a huge source of margin in terms of real performance. thats why everyone in this thread mutually understands why red1's link and junebug's ganondorf are all godly, and why we all know we could randomly lose to like 30 fox players and not give it any merit. how good your character is has a huge impact on your performance, which is why the idea of a player being a "fraud" after a character nerf is ludicrous. it's also why a lot of people say that PM is the devil's bargain- perform "too well" and your character gets nerfed. we have all watched these things happen publicly for the last 3 years or so.
but red1's link is a one trick pony. Hero of time however
 

Poilu

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Come on guys. For each tier list posted, I will aks the same question over and over again : Why is chardz so low ?!
 

King of Hoboz

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Come on guys. For each tier list posted, I will aks the same question over and over again : Why is chardz so low ?!
I'd be in the camp for Zard for best fattie, but Zard loses out the most for missing any attack (he has unsafe conversion tools) compared to any other DD oriented character. That alone makes him not really a contender for anything other than mid tier.
 
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Binary Clone

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Come on guys. For each tier list posted, I will aks the same question over and over again : Why is chardz so low ?!
He's fat.

He's almost certainly the best fattie, but he's still fat. He's fat and that means he's easy to hit. His recovery isn't actually all that stellar, and he's fat, so it's easy to hit him out of it. Just boop him once, boop him again, and his upB isn't that good, so, whoops, he's dead, because he's fat.

He has some good qualities, like a good dashdance and pretty good range, but he's still fat, which means that any movement is kind of mitigated in how good it is at getting him out of the way of something, since more space means bigger hurtbox. He has good range and a pretty good offstage game, but his nB isn't very good, meaning he doesn't have a projectile, and relies on that omvement, which, again, is mitigated by him being fat. Being fat and fast means he's better than the other fatties, but he still gets shut down by the good few character that are just faster and not fat, or those that outrange him by enough, or who can dominate space with projectiles that he doesn't have many good tools to deal with. That means pretty much all the spacies, plus swordies, plus speedies like Falcon. And... those guys are really important in the meta. Struggling against them pushes you down in the tier list by virtue of how common and important they are. Zard is the best fattie, but he's still fat. All those disjoints and projectiles are harder to deal with when you're fat, since they're just that much easier to connect with.

Did I mention that he's fat?
 

frankxthexbunny

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He's fat.

He's almost certainly the best fattie, but he's still fat. He's fat and that means he's easy to hit. His recovery isn't actually all that stellar, and he's fat, so it's easy to hit him out of it. Just boop him once, boop him again, and his upB isn't that good, so, whoops, he's dead, because he's fat.

He has some good qualities, like a good dashdance and pretty good range, but he's still fat, which means that any movement is kind of mitigated in how good it is at getting him out of the way of something, since more space means bigger hurtbox. He has good range and a pretty good offstage game, but his nB isn't very good, meaning he doesn't have a projectile, and relies on that omvement, which, again, is mitigated by him being fat. Being fat and fast means he's better than the other fatties, but he still gets shut down by the good few character that are just faster and not fat, or those that outrange him by enough, or who can dominate space with projectiles that he doesn't have many good tools to deal with. That means pretty much all the spacies, plus swordies, plus speedies like Falcon. And... those guys are really important in the meta. Struggling against them pushes you down in the tier list by virtue of how common and important they are. Zard is the best fattie, but he's still fat. All those disjoints and projectiles are harder to deal with when you're fat, since they're just that much easier to connect with.

Did I mention that he's fat?
I've said it once i've said it 1000 times, a well spaced charizard kills just as easily as he gets killed, and really is just a fat marth in a lot of ways, except he has more tools. I'm not saying he's as good as marth, I dont think he is, but I thnk he's also underestimated.
 

Boiko

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If you don't know how to play against Ness, he's going to seem really good. All of a sudden you're going to get comboed 0-death over and over again and be wondering why.

I've watched Mr. Lz play Stereo numerous times. Mr. Lz doesn't play to Ness' weaknesses, he plays to Game and Watch's strengths. I imagine that if he took the time to learn how to play against Ness, it would be a different story, especially since that is an awful MU for Ness.

There are very few high level Ness players and they're all very diversified. Stereo is in Florida, I'm in NY, NZA is in MA, reslived in MD/VA, Aki in IL. etc.. It's pretty standard to have experience against PK Fire Spammer Nublord, since Ness is so common. But when you play against an actual good Ness player, it's very different.
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

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I am also in the same boat that charizard is severely underrated. Great recovery, great mobility, strong and ranged attacks such as ftilt, nair, fair. Good edgeguards with dtilt, strong combos, and an up smash that reaches platforms so is good for tech chases. Outstanding ground tech chase game with dthrow, and up throw is very good for killing, especially on platform stages.

However, his weaknesses lie in his defensive options. Pretty bad tech rolls and a huge hurtbox being two of them. He kind of has the bowser syndrome of being weak to the z button.

I do think that charizard is around middle of mid tier or close to higher mid. He just needs more representation.
 
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frankxthexbunny

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I find ness really really easy to beat. His approach seems really predictable even with djc and he cannot handle projectiles in the slightest. the best he has a is a few decent punishes and some ways to punish approach, as well as some nice edgeguarding
 
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Binary Clone

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ness cannot handle projectiles in the slightest.
I...

What?

I mean, I don't think Ness is that great either, but saying he can't handle projectiles in the slightest seems odd to me when he has his down B.

It's fairly quick, has a surrounding hitbox, and is jump cancellable. It also heals him when it encounters Fox lasers, Falco lasers, Wolf lasers, Samus charge shot, Pit arrows, Bowser firebreath, Charizard firebreath, PK fire/flash/thunder... Uh, those are some of the most important projectiles in the game. He definitely can handle them. Whether or not it's a great way to handle them is up for discussion, but he definitely has a tool to handle projectiles.
 

The_NZA

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I...

What?

I mean, I don't think Ness is that great either, but saying he can't handle projectiles in the slightest seems odd to me when he has his down B.

It's fairly quick, has a surrounding hitbox, and is jump cancellable. It also heals him when it encounters Fox lasers, Falco lasers, Wolf lasers, Samus charge shot, Pit arrows, Bowser firebreath, Charizard firebreath, PK fire/flash/thunder... Uh, those are some of the most important projectiles in the game. He definitely can handle them. Whether or not it's a great way to handle them is up for discussion, but he definitely has a tool to handle projectiles.
Most of the time, the distances where projectiles actually threaten you in neutral, magneting is plainly bad. You get caught in a ton of lag and will be getting hit for it. B-reversing magnet is an adaption people have started, but if someone knows you are going to go for, they can close in when they use it. All of hte projectiles you named have the advantage of being able to bait magnet and get free hits in return iwth the exception of the two breaths. But Idk, i don't have that much experience against either breath.

The fact is, Ness's slow double jump, floaty fall speed alongside the hitbox of nair being extremely small means Ness does in fact get bodied by things like Link/Toon Link's/Zelda's arsenal. He can make it through them, but its a lot more work than most other characters have to contend with. With that said, no Ness player will claim Ness has it as bad as say--Charizard.

Then you have the whole projectiles net you free stocks against Ness's recovery thing and you have to see projecitle v. Ness matchups as pretty dangerous.

Basically i'm trying to say Magnet is worse or on par with reflector at negating projectiles and unless you see reflector as a good option, its hard to see magnet as a good one as well.

Magnet DOES mean you have an answer to Dins/laser camping in place from across the stage though.
 
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ZGE

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Ness also can't absorb turnips, eggs, bananas, peanuts, arrows, bombs, boomerangs, needles, missiles, ice blocks, waddle dees and doos and gordos, gyros, bacon, C4's, grenades, pikmin, and razor leafs (just to name a few). Even when I'm Zelda playing a Ness player, I'll still throw Din's to either bait him into using magnet (which will let me close the distance/gain stage control or land a decent punish) or to otherwise let it sit there. Magnet doesn't scare me in the slightest when it's used to absorb my stuff (unless I'm spamming fireballs at a distance, in which case I deserve to have them absorbed for free, lol).
 

frankxthexbunny

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I...

What?

I mean, I don't think Ness is that great either, but saying he can't handle projectiles in the slightest seems odd to me when he has his down B.

It's fairly quick, has a surrounding hitbox, and is jump cancellable. It also heals him when it encounters Fox lasers, Falco lasers, Wolf lasers, Samus charge shot, Pit arrows, Bowser firebreath, Charizard firebreath, PK fire/flash/thunder... Uh, those are some of the most important projectiles in the game. He definitely can handle them. Whether or not it's a great way to handle them is up for discussion, but he definitely has a tool to handle projectiles.
sorry, link main speaking, in my world projectiles stomp him, and when i think projectiles after that i think peach and diddy and snake. Forth I think falco though so I have no excuse.
 
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DrinkingFood

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Fatness by itself isn't that big a weakness when it comes with enhanced ranged. Zard's only real issue is fatness, but usually when a character is fat they come with all the associated related problems of fatness like slow moves both in startup and endlag, slow movement speed both on the ground and on the air, on top of actual fatness problems. Zard doesn't have those other problems so I don't think he suffers like a fatty does besides getting punished a little harder
 

Mage.

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.

Overall I kinda like this list, but I have some questions about certain characters. Can you explain more specifically your placement decisions for Wario, Samus and Pit?
Also, I personally would move Kirby a bit lower (but could see the argument for him being where he's placed) - I think he has trouble against a lot of those top two lines at the moment.
Wario was placed high because of a couple of reasons. Firstly, he's got really good grabs and a few good aerials that help him out a bit. The thing about him that ranks him high is that he has a few things that make him very dangerous. Firstly, his waft is so, so, so damn strong. An enemy can't do much to prevent him from getting it and once he has it all he really needs to do is land a grab or a bite and you'll probably get killed at low percentages. His shoulder bash is also a good killing move, especially with the ability to jump and can clank with many moves in the game. His Dair, while risky, can edgeguard a lot of characters if he spaces it right and can kill early. His recovery can be stopped pretty easily with some characters but can be tricky to guard.

From what i've played/seen/discussed/etc with Wario he feels pretty solid. If waft or shoulder bash ever get nerfed I'd probably drop him to A tier but he'd still be strong.

Samus is also up there because she's annoying to kill and can have some crazy pressure with missiles. A lot of her aerials help her combo and cover space well. Her recovery is really damn hard to play against because of her bombs delaying her landing and because of her weight. She isn't the fastest of characters and she doesn't have very obvious kill moves like Fox but she definitely belongs in the higher of A tier. I can't really place a finger on specifically as to why she's strong because I suck playing her but she doesn't seem to hold the same feeling as A- and she definitely doesn't feel like a B tier.

Pit was placed in lower A because he feels really good. No bad/laggy moves, good recovery, nice aerials and good projectile pressure. Funnily enough, I'm not quite sure where he belongs. He does not feel bad in the slightest and doesn't show any similarities of B tier characters. That said, I haven't seen much 3.6 Pit so I can't judge him too well. Also I may have put Kirby a bit higher from bias because I love the puff ball too damn much. Kirby Air Ride 2003. Good times.

First time posting in this thread hopefully this goes better than it did for 1flow lol.
Anyway, it seems like almost everyone is putting Fox and Wolf a tier above Falco, the only real reasons people cite for this are that Falco is slow and has a bad recovery. I don't really agree that these should put him a tier below the other spacies. As far as combo game and pressure he is at least on par with both Fox and Wolf. Being slow isn't really that much of a disadvantage when you have the best projectile in the game too, he probably has some of the best stage control in the entire cast and his lasers can completely shut down a ton of characters options. This gives Falco an absolutely great neutral game, which is mostly what we base tier lists off of anyway. As far as the recovery goes, sure his recovery sucks, but really what does it matter? If Fox is anywhere that he has to use upb then he should be dead too, and if it's a position where they would sideb Falco is in a better spot, so overall his recovery isn't even that much worse than foxes and shouldn't really be that much of a limiting factor, not to mention that you have to lose neutral to be put off stage in the first place. Overall I think Falco is pretty underrated when compared to the other spacies.
Falco's neutral game isn't bad at all. Assuming you were also including my tier (I guess this is one of those days where everyone decides to post tiers. not sure if you saw mine lol) Fox/Wolf aren't that much above Falco. They are only above him very slightly because they lack the negatives that he seems to have. It's literally just a difference of a few points. Also offstage is a huge factor as to tier placement. You can be amazing onstage and have a good neutral but it doesn't matter because you won't play neutral perfect all the time and when you screw up there goes a stock because it's just 1-2-3 and you're dead. He's by no means "tiers" below Fox/Wolf though.
 

tasteless gentleman

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Fatness by itself isn't that big a weakness when it comes with enhanced ranged. Zard's only real issue is fatness, but usually when a character is fat they come with all the associated related problems of fatness like slow moves both in startup and endlag, slow movement speed both on the ground and on the air, on top of actual fatness problems. Zard doesn't have those other problems so I don't think he suffers like a fatty does besides getting punished a little harder
All of this, if fatties had moves that didnt take forever to do and end then i think they would be way better, bowser is well on his way and dedede apparently got buffed. DK hasnt really been touched since 3.02. The getting comboed is a problem but its the losing the neutral alot and having trouble approaching that is....I think
 

JOE!

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He's fat.

He's almost certainly the best fattie, but he's still fat. He's fat and that means he's easy to hit. His recovery isn't actually all that stellar, and he's fat, so it's easy to hit him out of it. Just boop him once, boop him again, and his upB isn't that good, so, whoops, he's dead, because he's fat.

He has some good qualities, like a good dashdance and pretty good range, but he's still fat, which means that any movement is kind of mitigated in how good it is at getting him out of the way of something, since more space means bigger hurtbox. He has good range and a pretty good offstage game, but his nB isn't very good, meaning he doesn't have a projectile, and relies on that omvement, which, again, is mitigated by him being fat. Being fat and fast means he's better than the other fatties, but he still gets shut down by the good few character that are just faster and not fat, or those that outrange him by enough, or who can dominate space with projectiles that he doesn't have many good tools to deal with. That means pretty much all the spacies, plus swordies, plus speedies like Falcon. And... those guys are really important in the meta. Struggling against them pushes you down in the tier list by virtue of how common and important they are. Zard is the best fattie, but he's still fat. All those disjoints and projectiles are harder to deal with when you're fat, since they're just that much easier to connect with.

Did I mention that he's fat?
Im working on it

http://smashboards.com/threads/flying-flamethrower.412165/
 

MrLul

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
110
Location
Florida
NNID
MrL300
Kirby has no business being 12th best when he has unsavory MUs against most of the popular characters and gets practically shut down by a couple of characters. Send him to the border of B and B+.
He might have been that good in 3.02, but his current MU spread leaves something to be desired.
Yeah, I agree, last kirby I played was Tetra in 3.02
stooop putting olimar so loooooooowwwww hes mid tierrr
but his new recovery is free to edgegaurd
Ivy is not better than Shiek Tink peach ICs pit Olimar and Zard.
ik he's better than all of those chars besides tink. Theres no tinks in FL so idk wut do with him.
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
8,075
Location
Dedham, MA
People immediately think its OP since its new and scary just like seeing a bison for the first time was to our ancestors.

The current build of it is as follows:
Float time = 35 frames, this allows zard to hover briefly in place or move a platform's distance forward or backward

Flamethrower start up reduced by 2 frames 18 -> 16) on the ground, and reduced by 6 frames (18 -> 12) in the air.

Flamethrower end lag reduced to 18 frames for both ground and air. However, continuing a Flame while landing from the air has increased end lag by a bit to balance the faster start up.

Flames transition to non-hitstun at frame 11 instead of 10, giving it a smidge more range to actually "hit".

Inner flames deal 1% instead of 2% a hit.

Inner flames have their knockback increased to 30 from 20.
(Against Mario the old Ft with 2% / 20 BKB / 50 KBG would deal 29.28 KB at 0%. The compensated 1%/30/50 deals 39.105 KB at 0%, making it better as a zoning option as well as easier to DI out of)

The main idea behind it (beyond being swag/making him an IRL Dragon) is that it provides him a means of clanking through troublesome projectile walls that he otherwise would have little to no real defense against. From testing at Blacklisted, projectile users can still get around it with effort depending on how they aim or bait/punish the flames as they retreat/advance with them. However, when the fire does work Zard usually nets 7-12% (or more if they try to DI in for god knows why) and resets neutral if not gets an advantage with bad defenses by the opponent. If the opponent smartly gets out of the fire, they have slight frame advantage instead of Zard. The damage nerf also means more things beat the fire a little easier when it comes to lingering hitboxes making it not as scary an edgeguard/etc, as well as the increased knockback making popping out high an option when trying to get back onto the ledge.
 

MrLul

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
110
Location
Florida
NNID
MrL300
I've watched Mr. Lz play Stereo numerous times. Mr. Lz doesn't play to Ness' weaknesses, he plays to Game and Watch's strengths. I imagine that if he took the time to learn how to play against Ness, it would be a different story, especially since that is an awful MU for Ness.
I SDI his fairs and uairs every time I can. Stereo has lots of bad habits, the MU isn't that bad, 55 45 at most. All of the Ness mains I see are always whining when their character is so good.
If you don't know how to play against Ness, he's going to seem really good. All of a sudden you're going to get comboed 0-death over and over again and be wondering why.
Ness does that even if you know the mu lmao. If you don't know how to play against GnW, he's going to seem really good. All of a sudden you're going to get comboed 0-death over and over again and be wondering why.
 
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