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Yes
You do realize that he had to be changed because the only reason he had the things he had before were do to universal bugs (stage collision bug) right
**** it, why not, just give it counter play, i mean side-bs usually lose to CC dont they?
That was sarcasm
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/project-m-3-0-changelist
He saw no downsides as he couldn't do SH Fair WL http://smashboards.com/threads/squirtle-squad-general-disc.331682/page-48#post-18149440 : meaning he, and the rest of you, didn't know or utilize similar difficult windows for SH Nair WL/DJ and so on in the past versions
I'm not seeing the post he wrote.
Forgive me. What I meant was:
No. Squirtle has a specific thing when he's footstooled out of withdraw. It's really stupid and you're literally stuck in it forever unable to do anything. It needs to be removed already, makes no sense that you can tank a ****ing falco dair but then someone jumps off of you and you just lose your ****
This is HIGHLY misleading. Everyone in this thread has different balance goals and biases and the community is fairly sizable. Of course if you followed EVERY nerf suggestion, the game would be an unplayable mess. However, that doesn't mean some characters don't need to be nerfed a bit, and some characters have things that need to be normalized a bit. imo, there's a range between "****ing jank BS" and "boring normalized BS" called "jank bs like momma used to make" which is the ideal balance zone.
AceGamer
Bazkip
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-ding, ding, ding!~-
No one is getting the "Pit" treatment XD lol. 3.5 is where all major nerfs happened, from here on most changes should be minor
No there are definitely a handful of other characters who need slight adjustments to make the way the interact a little less silly
Lucas is kind of in the same boat as Mewtwo, where everything I do, I know there's more to it than I can see. Due to his much poorer off-stage game in 3.5, he's at least a lot less forgiving in some aspect of his game. Overall, I think Lucas might be the 2nd most difficult character to play in the game, maybe the most difficult, and it'll be a long while before his game is even close to matching others in the cast.Yoshi is the most linear of all of this Higher Tier in terms of game-plan, in the sense that he can't apply TOO many different methods of approaching the many match-ups in the game to make them work. Instead, his core methods are so solid that whatever little of them he CAN actually use in a match-up, it's basically always enough, or more than enough. I don't see Yoshi game-play getting anything but more unbreakable, even through his quirkiness.Mario is solid. So simple in terms of what he CAN do, but so dynamic in application of those methods. He's like a Yoshi in this sense, but more unbreakable-branching-to-quirks to win all of his match-ups, rather than quirky-and-developing-unbreakability. He'll be one of the strongest fortresses in the game forever.Luigi has always been in my top 10, but this is probably the highest I've seriously placed him. He's always considered staight-up bad in the mainstream, unlike Wolf/Yoshi/etc, who are usually just considered unknown. For some reason he's under the radar, but I don't see him staying there forever. There are hardly any glimpses of him becoming a force, but it shouldn't take someone much time to see that there's something to him. Something dangerous.Fox for obvious reasons is a beast. This is the highest I've ever placed him in a PM Tier List before, and I think that's probably still lower than anyone would ever put him. He can do everything, is essentially what most people consider the most 'free' character in Smash, in the sense that you can do anything you want and it's effective, fun, flexible, and generally everything in the game is manageable with him. Obvious top-end contender.Diddy is solid in a similar way to Mario, but with more interactive methods. He's less of a fortress that the opponent has to break down, and takes more of the role of breaking down an opponents fortress. He joins those ranks as being in the solid-crew, and will always be around and functional in the top-end of the game. I (still, since his intro to PM) consider Banana-Dashing (DDing with a nana) to be the strongest neutral position in the game.Ike was held down by pace-control more than possibly anyone in the game in 3.0, and with all of that basically being the target of the nerf-bat more than anything else, he was let loose and there's very little keeping him under wraps at this point. With some key speed and range tools, and the ability to be threatening from nearly anywhere WITH those tools, he's one of the few left who I would say is still a little 'too' jank for the game.Falcon is very much in the same boat as Ike, where pace-control was a bit of an issue but in a very different way. There's been nothing additional to the PM game overall that is worse than anything he had to face in Melee, and this is very unlike almost anyone else coming from Melee. This expanding-without-greater-burdens gives him an edge in the game when it comes to cast-wide match-ups, the niche that hurts him is very little.Roy is in the solid-crew with Mario/Diddy/TL/etc, in the sense that there's really not much for weaknesses to cover, his general game-plan is flexible and universal, and basically... Roy. Just. Works. He's been this way since introduction, and unlike the pace-controlling aspects that other solid-crew have, he never had much of his own. So the nerf to that pace-control side of the game has allowed him to move more freely up the Tiers.Peach is in the batch of characters that everyone has argued against me, saying she's bad. I still don't see how she can be anything less that a beast that has a niche of things that hurt her, which is maybe slightly bigger than the hurts-Falcon niche, but not entirely unmanageable. Any character that can cover themselves almost indefinitely in-combat is good. She's STILL the Queen of Amoeba Hitboxes.ROB was much like Ike, where pace-control was a major annoyance and held him back. If he could control the pace of a match, and be free to fly around, basically swatting the fly-swatters and catching the fly-catchers, he would be fine. Sure enough, most of the key elements of the game that didn't allow him to do this were mostly toned down. He's solid and annoying, and there's very little that can annoy him back anymore.Sheik is still Queen of Stale-Mating the Neutral Game, just as much as ever. She's as glass-cannon as it gets, but that clobber-faces or get-clobbered game-plan works much better for her on a universal level than most other game-plans go for other characters. She needs to seriously adjust to deal with things thrown at her, but she can deal with anything. Characters like Kirby might be the ultimate specific-fly-traps, but she's the well-rounded one.Squirtle is small and fast and hits hard and has decent range and basically is just really solid, so he can't ever be counted out. Aside from being very quirky in more ways than most of the cast, he still functions well in a straight-forward way. As his game-development transitions to more stable play, once all the novelty and junk has been flushed out, I expect him to be a force that you can't take your eyes off of even for a moment.Ness is a beast and offensive force that's nearly unmatched in the game. If stale-mating the neutral game can be played with to his favor, he'll easily start challenging Sheik for the title-holder. Given the way his neutral and pressure tools work so smoothly into finishes, his game leaning more to the stability side will only keep benefiting him, and that's the direction the entire game is bound to go with time.Marth is one of the most affected Melee characters when it comes to diversity in cast, but not in any way that completely destroys him out of the competition. His game-plan is still the same, and still as functional and universal as ever. If a character can't develop enough neutral-breaking game or neutral-trapping game, than Marth will tear them apart, and that's bound to happen given how steady he can chip away at positioning.Pit is like a Marth that leans more on the neutral pressure side of it. He was the nearest challenge to get the Stale-Mate Master title in 3.0, but now it's a little more challenging to convert that into finishes the way Ness can, and was turned to be more like Sheiks game-plan. This essentially makes him more position-chipping version of a stale-mate character given his speed and range playing more of a factor than ever.Snake has a cool niche, never really threatening the opponent in a way that PREVENTS them from acting a certain way, like a lock-down character, but he does it in a way that makes them WANT to act to act a certain way. This allows him to control a game from what's basically a threat-level type of position instead of directly. If he can pace-control a match this way, then he's as good as it gets, if not, then he'll hurt. Glass-cannon of sorts.Wario always makes me forget how good he is until I play him. He's fast, hits hard, has the free-stuff in droves, IF you can get it. He can get it. Aside from some basic tools that might hurt him more than others, there's not really a counter-play that can be applied to deal with him that he can't adjust to and plow right through in some way. There's really nothing that he can't adapt to, and at the same time, he forces others to adapt by nature of it.Charizard has a sweet play-style that is probably more of an acquired taste than I give credit to. Bulky and clunky while still fast and flexible, with a good mix of speed and range that makes a great start, and fairly easy leads into solid finishing. Aside from some pace-control of various kinds, usually in the form of traps and neutral stale-mating, he can get through almost anything. Almost, is the key word there.Ice Climbers in PM are so fun. I wish I could take them into Melee and 64 and play them there. They feel soft in terms of how much of an impact they have on forcing the opponent to adjust to them, and playing them almost makes everything feel like a challenge. Which I like, because they're very capable in this same way. It's not the character forcing the opponent to adjust to them, but they allow the player to make that happen through game-play. It's proper.Donkey Kong is probably the most linear character in the game when it comes to game-play, and that's usually a hinderance if it isn't something that's very universally solid and very stable. Fortunately, he has some of the most foundational utilities in the game to make it work. Despite so few quirks, his simple-game is probably the most effective simple-game you could have in Smash. Outside of some niches, he's never out of a game.Bowser is crazy. How hard he hits for what often can seem effortless is just off-the-wall bonkers. A single play, which can catch even the best player on anything from a random guess to an attempted read, can change the entire pace of a match and flow of a game. He's threatening, and deceptive, and even when the counter-play is worked out, unless it's a niche match-up, he's too quirky as a character in general to completely shut him out of a game.Zelda is an offensive force that uses defense as the best offense. She's a very interesting character, and I wouldn't be surprised to see her in the finals of finals of major events due to how much of a different game she brings to the table, and how little of a mistake needs to be made for her to get more free-stuff than most characters in the game, and how little she has to do to threaten the opponent into making a miss-play that they can easily fall for.Olimar still feels like he belongs in a different game, but only after realizing that he has a single game-plan that seemingly makes all of his other game-plans obsolete. His close-combat game is solid, but the thing that really sets him apart is how he can work the neutral game in a way to make his close-combat game actually come into play. I'm stoked to see how this plays out long-term, because I think he'll be a very exciting character when flushed out.
Nausicaa
Mario,Luigi,Yoshi,Lucas,pika top tier?.....kek.
Nausicaa
, I have never seen someone say so little with so much... I'm not even going to mention most of the seriously questionable placements, but let me just abridge all of your descriptions.
this killed me way more than it should have. quote of the year.#10 Pikachu
He's good because he's really hard to play and that's why he isn't popular. No one plays characters that don't win for free
(at this point I decided 40 characters is a lot and I don't have that much satire in my body, so let's just skip around.)
